---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/16/02: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Re: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! (Brian Lloyd) 2. 05:19 AM - Re: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! (Frank Haertlein) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 06:28 AM - Re: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! (A. Dennis Savarese) 5. 07:25 AM - Re: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! (Brian Lloyd) 6. 09:49 AM - Re: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! (Roy O. Wright) 7. 10:39 AM - Smoke oil injectors (Yakjock) 8. 10:55 AM - Re: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! (A. Dennis Savarese) 9. 03:26 PM - M14 vs Huosai start procedure. (ByronMFox@aol.com) 10. 07:12 PM - Re: M14 vs Huosai start procedure. (cjpilot710@aol.com) 11. 07:38 PM - M14 vs Huosai start procedure (Frank Stelwagon) 12. 07:43 PM - Re: M14 vs Huosai start procedure. (Craig Payne) 13. 08:44 PM - Re: M14 vs Huosai start procedure (A. Dennis Savarese) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:59 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd At 12:03 AM 12/16/2002, you wrote: >--> Yak-List message posted by: "T.A. Lewis" > >Hi Frank, >I don't have a 52 but I might assume that you have an oil dilution system >for cold weather operations. >A four quart error is a lot of oil. The sump in the engine can hold a lot of oil especially if it fills all the way. As soon as the engine starts, the scavenge pump pulls all the oil out of the sump and pumps it back to the storage tank. If you have filled the storage tank to full while there are several liters/quarts of oil in the sump, you will overfill the storage tank when that excess oil goes back to the tank. >I would check for a stuck valve in the oil dilution system if it happened on >my CJ-6. If that happens the oil will smell of fuel and be very runny. Frankly, there is no reason to be using the oil dilution system. Using the correct viscosity oil for the season or using a multi-viscosity oil totally eliminates the need for oil dilution. If you are using the correct oil and you still need the oil dilution, you are not preheating properly. That is the long way of saying, "get rid of the oil dilution system and its associated plumbing. If they aren't there, they can't cause problems in the future." Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Ste 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 +1.360.838.9669 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:23 AM PST US From: "Frank Haertlein" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" "get rid of the oil dilution system and its associated plumbing. If they aren't there, they can't cause problems in the future." Brian; That's exactly what I did on my plane about a year ago so I know for sure it wasn't the oil dilution system. I'm positive there was oil in the engine that I didn't know about. I should have opened the front drain and gotten rid of the excess. So then that's another lesson we can add to the quirks of these round engines. I'm seriously considering the addition of that "helicopter valve" in the oil feed line. Who was it that posted on this issue a while back? I'd be interested in hearing the particulars of the installation....you know, part numbers and where to get the items.... Thanks Frank Chino ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:45 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" As far as what might be "stuck" in the 52 that might cause the problem, it would be the oil pump itself. The oil pump has a shut off valve that closes off the oil supply from the tank to the engine when the pump is not operational. If this valve were to remain open, the oil from the oil tank would drain down into the engine until the head pressure from the oil in the tank is equal to the pressure in the engine. The best way to verify the operation of the valve is to drain and refill the oil system and fill the tank with 14 liters. Run the engine until the oil reaches operating temperature. Shut the engine down and immediately check the dipstick level in the oil tank. Let it sit overnight and check the dip stick each day for the next few days to see if the oil is draining down. If it goes down more than a half liter or so in a week, then I would suspect the oil pump shut off valve is not shutting off. Several people have installed secondary oil shut off valves to prevent oil drain down. However, this fix is masking the actual problem and because it's another item that MUST be turned on prior to engine start, it could potentially be hazardous to your engine. Dennis Savarese ----- Original Message ----- From: "T.A. Lewis" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! > --> Yak-List message posted by: "T.A. Lewis" > > Hi Frank, > I don't have a 52 but I might assume that you have an oil dilution system > for cold weather operations. > A four quart error is a lot of oil. > I would check for a stuck valve in the oil dilution system if it happened on > my CJ-6. > Regards, > Terry Lewis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frank Haertlein" > To: > Subject: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! > > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" > > > > > YAKKERS; > > I'm glad to report that YAK N911OM flew for the first time Saturday and > > it's flying great! Let me say that this is one hell of a great airplane! > > My compliments to the Russian designers. > > > > They sure do "love the ground" though don't they? Gives new meaning to > > "steep approach"...... but in a way it's kinda nice....no foolin' around > > with float. And that climb! YEEEHHHAAAA! Hehehehe... you gotta love it! > > > > One thing I learned: if you leave the plane sitting for about a month > > without starting it, a lot of the oil will drain into the engine. At > > least on my airplane it does. If you then check the dipstick you'll > > notice it'll be down some amount. I figured it had just drained out of > > the cleanup kit and/or into one of the cylinders. It had a solid > > hydraulic lock that I could only drain by removing a spark plug. What I > > Did was add oil to refill the tank to near MAX not knowing there was a > > lot of oil in the engine. After the first flight my plane was dripping > > oil. There was literally a trail of oil leading up to the gas pump. My > > first thought was I'd broken an oil line to the cooler but it turned out > > to be coming out of the overflow on the right side of the plane. A check > > of the oil level revealed the level was way over MAX. I had to drain > > maybe four quarts to bring it down to MAX level. Anyone want to venture > > a guess if I've hurt anything? > > > > Frank > > Chino > > > > PS Barry....Congrats! > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:27 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" No! No! No, Frank. Don't do that until you verify the shut off valve in the oil pump. If you do install that secondary shut off valve and you have not checked the oil pump shut off valve for proper operation, you are potentially masking the problem. The oil system in the 52 and M14 really does work well. Dennis Savarese ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Haertlein" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" > > "get rid of the oil dilution system and its > associated plumbing. If they aren't there, they can't cause problems in > > the future." > > Brian; > That's exactly what I did on my plane about a year ago so I know for > sure it wasn't the oil dilution system. I'm positive there was oil in > the engine that I didn't know about. I should have opened the front > drain and gotten rid of the excess. So then that's another lesson we can > add to the quirks of these round engines. I'm seriously considering the > addition of that "helicopter valve" in the oil feed line. Who was it > that posted on this issue a while back? I'd be interested in hearing the > particulars of the installation....you know, part numbers and where to > get the items.... > > Thanks > Frank > Chino > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:14 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd At 10:19 AM 12/16/2002, you wrote: >--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" > >As far as what might be "stuck" in the 52 that might cause the problem, it >would be the oil pump itself. The oil pump has a shut off valve that closes >off the oil supply from the tank to the engine when the pump is not >operational. If this valve were to remain open, the oil from the oil tank >would drain down into the engine until the head pressure from the oil in the >tank is equal to the pressure in the engine. And that occurs when the destination is full or the oil level in the two places is equal, neither of which bodes well for avoiding a hydraulic lock. >The best way to verify the operation of the valve is to drain and refill the >oil system and fill the tank with 14 liters. Run the engine until the oil >reaches operating temperature. Shut the engine down and immediately check >the dipstick level in the oil tank. Let it sit overnight and check the dip >stick each day for the next few days to see if the oil is draining down. If >it goes down more than a half liter or so in a week, then I would suspect >the oil pump shut off valve is not shutting off. > >Several people have installed secondary oil shut off valves to prevent oil >drain down. However, this fix is masking the actual problem and because >it's another item that MUST be turned on prior to engine start, it could >potentially be hazardous to your engine. Right on bro! Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Ste 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 +1.360.838.9669 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:31 AM PST US From: "Roy O. Wright" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roy O. Wright" It might also be improper shutdown procedure. I highly recommend reading "An Introduction to the M14P for Flat-Engine Pilots" by Fred Abramson at http://www.fred.abramson.com/m14p.htm Have fun, Roy ',,'',,'',,',,' Roy Wright 512.378.1234 mailto:royw@cisco.com Cisco Systems #include "The more prohibitions there are, the poorer the people will be. The more laws are promulgated, the more thieves and bandits there will be." -- Lao-tzu, "The Tao Te Ching" (believed written in China, 6th century BC). ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:55 AM PST US From: "Yakjock" Subject: Yak-List: Smoke oil injectors --> Yak-List message posted by: "Yakjock" On the new CJ with the M14P, Bill Blackwell installed the injectors about four inches above the exhaust outlet and below the weld where the lower cylinder exhaust lines merge into the main. Provides great smoke! If you fly next to one of these planes after dark you'll see a blue flame coming from the exhaust stack. There is clearly plenty of heat to set the injectors as far to the end as one may wish. It makes sense to me to not have them positioned farther up as any leakage may work itself through the junctions where the stack segments come together. One thing about the smoke I'm hoping we can find a solution for: if you pull even gently with the smoke on the airflow takes the exhaust stream up and over the wing and dumps a bunch of it through the oil cooler port at the wing root. This in turn distributes it quite well into the cockpit. We need to find a way to block all of the openings into the cockpit as smoke isn't all that is coming in. Hal Morley ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:05 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" Good suggestion Roy. Dennis Savarese ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy O. Wright" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another YAK 52 Flying Great! > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roy O. Wright" > > It might also be improper shutdown procedure. I highly recommend > reading "An Introduction to the M14P for Flat-Engine Pilots" by > Fred Abramson at http://www.fred.abramson.com/m14p.htm > > Have fun, > Roy > > > ',,'',,'',,',,' > Roy Wright 512.378.1234 mailto:royw@cisco.com > Cisco Systems #include > > "The more prohibitions there are, the poorer the people will be. The > more laws are promulgated, the more thieves and bandits there will be." > -- Lao-tzu, "The Tao Te Ching" (believed written in China, 6th century > BC). > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:21 PM PST US From: ByronMFox@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: M14 vs Huosai start procedure. --> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com The following is quoted from Fred Abramson's article on the M14 that Roy Wright suggested that we review. <> CJ owners know that the start procedure for the Chinese engine differs. The mags are turned on before pressing the start button. Can someone tell me why the Huosai engine is different when so much else is shared in common. Thanks, Blitz Byron M. Fox 80 Milland Drive Mill Valley, CA 94941 Home 415-380-0907 Cell 415-307-2405 Fax 415-380-0917 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:55 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: M14 vs Huosai start procedure. --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com Craig Paine, has the definitive answer, but it has to do with the internal timing of the different mags. The Chinese mags have a built in auto advance for starting. Clear me on that Craig? Jim Goolsby cjpilot710@aol.com 386-467-3313 voice 386-467-3193 fax 386-503-9065 or 8565 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin 1759 "With my shield, or on it" Trojan Warriors BC ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:41 PM PST US From: "Frank Stelwagon" Subject: Yak-List: M14 vs Huosai start procedure --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon" The Huosai magnetos have built in mechanical spark advance, so at the slow cranking speed they are in the retarded configuration. As the RPM comes up on start the magnetos internally move to the advanced state. In the retarded position the engine will not kick back when trying to start. The Russian magnetos do not have the built in mechanical advance, and are timed in the advanced position and will tend to kick back at the slow start speed. Frank Stelwagon CJ-6A N23021 pfstelwagon@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:59 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Yak-List: M14 vs Huosai start procedure. --> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne Yep, the Chinese mags have automatic advance and start at about 5 degrees BTDC rather than starting at a fixed 23 degrees BTDC like the M9F mags. The "shower of sparks" is ON during the start. A smooth running dude, that also boasts greater theoretical efficiency from running at greater total advance. When coupled with with the M-14P, I got better MP. Climbing out of Eagles Nest with full baggage, one Portly Airline Captain with his bags in the back, also with his bag, I got 900mm of mercury manifold pressure. Of course, we were near sea level. I also ran this year's Sun 60 race at 880-900mm of MAP, indicating about 174 Knots at 80 degrees F, at about 450 MSL. Love them Huosai mags. Some of the Russian engines also come equiped with auto-advance mags. I believe the 400HP Red Head does. Any of you 400HP Hot Dogs wanna run next year? Craig Payne >cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: > > --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com > > Craig Paine, has the definitive answer, but it has to do with the internal > timing of the different mags. The Chinese mags have a built in auto advance > for starting. Clear me on that Craig? > > Jim Goolsby > cjpilot710@aol.com ============================================================== ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:44 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: M14 vs Huosai start procedure --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" The 400 HP M14 on the new Yak 52TW has the M9-35 magnetos which also have the centrifugal advance mechanism built in and the Slick starting coil). They are timed to 4.5 - 5 degrees AFTER top dead center unlike the mags on the older Yak 52's and M14's (M9-F, like mine) that do not have the centrifugal advance and are timed to 15-17 degrees before TDC as measured on the prop flange. Also the M9-F mag has rotor with two fingers on it. One finger is connected to the shower of sparks which fires just after TDC. Dennis Savarese ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Stelwagon" Subject: Yak-List: M14 vs Huosai start procedure > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon" > > The Huosai magnetos have built in mechanical spark advance, so at the slow cranking speed they are in the retarded configuration. As the RPM comes up on start the magnetos internally move to the advanced state. In the retarded position the engine will not kick back when trying to start. The Russian magnetos do not have the built in mechanical advance, and are timed in the advanced position and will tend to kick back at the slow start speed. > > Frank Stelwagon > CJ-6A N23021 > pfstelwagon@earthlink.net > >