Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:38 AM - (Mark Jefferies.)
2. 08:40 AM - Re: Wing Bolts tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.43 (Lisa Kingscott)
3. 01:01 PM - Re: Wing Bolts tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.43 (Ernie)
4. 02:24 PM - Re: CJ Wing Bolts (Jim Ivey)
5. 04:52 PM - Nose gear seals Yak 52 (Gus Fraser)
6. 05:57 PM - Yak-52 sighting devise (Richard Basiliere)
7. 07:27 PM - Re: CJ Wing Bolts (Walt Lannon)
8. 08:11 PM - OPINIONS.................... (Frank Haertlein)
9. 10:51 PM - OPINIONS............BEST Paint Shop in SouthWEST (Phoenix Area) less (Mark Schrick)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies." <mark@yakuk.com>
staar..
Yes approved process do have to be adhered to or you will kill yourself and possibly
others. Hydrogen enbritalment is the result of using the wrong process,
not important on your air-conditioning unit but very important on your a/c.
Do not treat "experimental" as an experiment to see how long it (a/c) will last
with improper maintenance or modifications. Remember the OEM had access to years
of research, 1000's of hours of man power and in the case of the FSU it appears
unlimited funds when these a/c were designed.
seasons greetings...
--> Yak-List message posted by: "staar" <staar@volcano.net>
Wrong
The process I'm speaking of is used to repair crankshafts journals and you
don't know what the process is. Number 2 , these are EXPERIMENTAL aircraft
you don't need any "approved process" to do anything on them. So tell me
just what process did the Chinese and the Russians use and how were they
approved? That is why you need permission from the FAA to fly them to and
from airshows.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Bolts tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, |
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST
version=2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lisa Kingscott" <lisa@kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk>
Staar,
Coating a pitted component does NOT remove the pit, it just covers it up with a
material which may be the same (or may be different) chemically but structurally
will be likely to be entirely different.
FURTHERMORE, almost all plating processes would not properly coat pitting in a
pitted component, in fact the layer of coating would tend to thin around the pit.
Ever seen how chrome plating often tends to enhance scratches in the original
component? That's why you need to clean components up so well before plating.
The ONLY way to remove pitting correctly is to machine the surrounding metal. It
may then be possible to build up with new, but generally that is not done, oversize
fittings are used instead.
Trying to plate over pitting, even if the pitting is well covered, will leave an
area which WILL be subject to higher localised stress, thereby promoting fatigue
failure.
In general most crankshaft treatments do not add a layer of metal, but simply alter
the structure or chemical composition of the crankshaft surface. All the
processes I have heard of to repair pitted crankshafts (all non aircraft) require
the pitting to be machined out before any new metal is deposited by whatever
means.
I bet everyone knows of the Lycoming A/D requiring crank corrosion inspection.
Corrosion pitting is allowed to be removed by reaming, but only a certain amount.
Localised grinding of pitting is forbidden. If the pitting is too deep, then
the crank is scrap, PERIOD. This A/D is in place for good reason and I for
one would regard wing attachments in the same manner.
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: staar
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Bolts testsQUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: "staar" <staar@volcano.net>
Wrong
The process I'm speaking of is used to repair crankshafts journals and you
don't know what the process is. Number 2 , these are EXPERIMENTAL aircraft
you don't need any "approved process" to do anything on them. So tell me
just what process did the Chinese and the Russians use and how were they
approved? That is why you need permission from the FAA to fly them to and
from airshows.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
testsQUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version2.43
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "staar" <staar@volcano.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "staar" <staar@volcano.net>
> >
> > G'Day Mates
> >
> > Just a thought, If It were me trying to fill some pits in the wing
attach
> > points, I would try an engine rebuilder, they plate or coat crankshafts
> with
> > a very hard metal . They can remove all of the rust then coat the parts
to
> > fill the pits. You might have them do the attach points and then re-ream
> > them to their original size.
>
> Wrong! The pits are still there whether they are filled or not. The danger
> of pitting caused by corrosion is the concentration of stress at the pit
> location rather than being distributed over the whole bearing area. This
> will result in fatigue cracking originating at the bottom of the pit.
> In the case of wing attach fittings of the CJ (and Yak 52?) type there are
> only two acceptable repairs;
>
> 1. Ream or hone the bores to remove ALL traces of corrosion pitting. If
> still within approved repair limits fit oversize bolts. The Chinese did
have
> oversize bolts so it would be reasonable to accept their diameter as the
> repair limit.
> 2. Replace the attach fittings.
>
> I have removed all of the attach points on the
> > wing and stub wing for a project that I am working on, and all I did was
> > bead blast them, have them cad plated and re-installed them, not that
bad
> of
> > a task, just takes some time.
>
> Very good plan providing that the cadmium plating was done by an approved
> repair facility that applies the correct baking procedure for the material
> to avoid hydrogen embrittlement and subsequent failure. In addition, the
> bore surface should not be plated. If the bores are not worn you would
have
> to remove the plating in order to fit the bolts. If they are worn oversize
> cad. or zinc plating is too soft for this purpose. Rework within limit
and
> install oversize bolt.
>
> Walt
> >
> > RT
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lou Dakos" <lou_dakos@bordermail.com.au>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lou Dakos"
> <lou_dakos@bordermail.com.au>
> > >
> > > G'Day Yakers
> > > I didn't mean to worry anybody about wing attachment but my aircraft
is
> > one of 18 that was imported to Australia about 7 years ago they were all
a
> > bit rough but sound, the chinnese had not preserved them at all when
they
> > de-commissioned them so a lot of the steel components had rusted I have
> > already replaced engine mount support and minor other steel bits the
wing
> > attachment points when cleaned up show very small pitting and as I have
> not
> > skimped on my restoration so far (5 years of work) and my arse will be
in
> it
> > I will be reaming the holes, I only need a couple of thou. I dont know
if
> > this is a common problem but I would think that if one is around there
> could
> > be more, it is not very hard to pop a bolt out and check holes.
> > >
> > > Regards Lou
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Bolts tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, |
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST
version=2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Boy..... you're smart Lisa :)
Merry Christmas
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Kingscott" <lisa@kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.43
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lisa Kingscott"
<lisa@kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Staar,
>
> Coating a pitted component does NOT remove the pit, it just covers it up
with a material which may be the same (or may be different) chemically but
structurally will be likely to be entirely different.
>
> FURTHERMORE, almost all plating processes would not properly coat pitting
in a pitted component, in fact the layer of coating would tend to thin
around the pit. Ever seen how chrome plating often tends to enhance
scratches in the original component? That's why you need to clean components
up so well before plating.
>
> The ONLY way to remove pitting correctly is to machine the surrounding
metal. It may then be possible to build up with new, but generally that is
not done, oversize fittings are used instead.
>
> Trying to plate over pitting, even if the pitting is well covered, will
leave an area which WILL be subject to higher localised stress, thereby
promoting fatigue failure.
>
> In general most crankshaft treatments do not add a layer of metal, but
simply alter the structure or chemical composition of the crankshaft
surface. All the processes I have heard of to repair pitted crankshafts (all
non aircraft) require the pitting to be machined out before any new metal is
deposited by whatever means.
>
> I bet everyone knows of the Lycoming A/D requiring crank corrosion
inspection. Corrosion pitting is allowed to be removed by reaming, but only
a certain amount. Localised grinding of pitting is forbidden. If the pitting
is too deep, then the crank is scrap, PERIOD. This A/D is in place for good
reason and I for one would regard wing attachments in the same manner.
>
> Lisa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: staar
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 7:33 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
testsQUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version2.43
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "staar" <staar@volcano.net>
>
> Wrong
> The process I'm speaking of is used to repair crankshafts journals and
you
> don't know what the process is. Number 2 , these are EXPERIMENTAL
aircraft
> you don't need any "approved process" to do anything on them. So tell me
> just what process did the Chinese and the Russians use and how were they
> approved? That is why you need permission from the FAA to fly them to
and
> from airshows.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
> testsQUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,
> SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version2.43
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "staar" <staar@volcano.net>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "staar" <staar@volcano.net>
> > >
> > > G'Day Mates
> > >
> > > Just a thought, If It were me trying to fill some pits in the wing
> attach
> > > points, I would try an engine rebuilder, they plate or coat
crankshafts
> > with
> > > a very hard metal . They can remove all of the rust then coat the
parts
> to
> > > fill the pits. You might have them do the attach points and then
re-ream
> > > them to their original size.
> >
> > Wrong! The pits are still there whether they are filled or not. The
danger
> > of pitting caused by corrosion is the concentration of stress at the
pit
> > location rather than being distributed over the whole bearing area.
This
> > will result in fatigue cracking originating at the bottom of the pit.
> > In the case of wing attach fittings of the CJ (and Yak 52?) type there
are
> > only two acceptable repairs;
> >
> > 1. Ream or hone the bores to remove ALL traces of corrosion pitting.
If
> > still within approved repair limits fit oversize bolts. The Chinese
did
> have
> > oversize bolts so it would be reasonable to accept their diameter as
the
> > repair limit.
> > 2. Replace the attach fittings.
> >
> > I have removed all of the attach points on the
> > > wing and stub wing for a project that I am working on, and all I did
was
> > > bead blast them, have them cad plated and re-installed them, not
that
> bad
> > of
> > > a task, just takes some time.
> >
> > Very good plan providing that the cadmium plating was done by an
approved
> > repair facility that applies the correct baking procedure for the
material
> > to avoid hydrogen embrittlement and subsequent failure. In addition,
the
> > bore surface should not be plated. If the bores are not worn you would
> have
> > to remove the plating in order to fit the bolts. If they are worn
oversize
> > cad. or zinc plating is too soft for this purpose. Rework within
limit
> and
> > install oversize bolt.
> >
> > Walt
> > >
> > > RT
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lou Dakos" <lou_dakos@bordermail.com.au>
> > > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Yak-List: Wing Bolts
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lou Dakos"
> > <lou_dakos@bordermail.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > G'Day Yakers
> > > > I didn't mean to worry anybody about wing attachment but my
aircraft
> is
> > > one of 18 that was imported to Australia about 7 years ago they were
all
> a
> > > bit rough but sound, the chinnese had not preserved them at all when
> they
> > > de-commissioned them so a lot of the steel components had rusted I
have
> > > already replaced engine mount support and minor other steel bits the
> wing
> > > attachment points when cleaned up show very small pitting and as I
have
> > not
> > > skimped on my restoration so far (5 years of work) and my arse will
be
> in
> > it
> > > I will be reaming the holes, I only need a couple of thou. I dont
know
> if
> > > this is a common problem but I would think that if one is around
there
> > could
> > > be more, it is not very hard to pop a bolt out and check holes.
> > > >
> > > > Regards Lou
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: CJ Wing Bolts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jim Ivey <jim@jimivey.com>
There are a few alternatives on the wing bolt holes, and I think Walt
covered them very well. It is also not too uncommon to oversize
original fitting holes and go up to the next approved diameter and then
bushing the holes using original size-bolts. Most aircraft structural
engineers worth their salt take this into consideration when designing
fittings.
Remember that the only limiting factor on this modification is the
amount of remaining material in the fitting. As you drill out the hole
the stresses the hole will see actually decrease (surface area is
increased). Where the sticking point is is how much material is left to
take whatever stress is present. Put another way, as this type of
rework is accomplished the structural concerns shift away from the any
bearing stress (bolt and hole) and shift toward a material "tear out"
stress (meat left on the fitting). That's why folks like Boeing leave
extra meat in their fittings and sometimes allow oversizing the fitting
holes multiple times up to a specified limit.
Frank Haertlein wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
>Lou;
>I hate to rain on your parade........ but reaming out the wing mounting
>bosses on the fuselage and wing side is a MAJOR undertaking. By reaming
>out the holes you could be reducing the strength of the bosses. The
>degree of strength you loose would be proportional to the amount you
>ream out. If it were me I'd consider replacing the affected parts or, as
>a last resort, have a stress analysis done on the part. At any rate,
>you're probly lookin' at getting custom bolts made for an iffy
>situation.
>
>Fly Safe!
>Frank
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Nose gear seals Yak 52 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
Anyone replaced the main gear seals on a Yak 52 ? I need to get my actuator
off and replace my seals and I was wondering if anyone on the list had
experience of doing this. The problem is that when I select gear down I get
air flow continually , sometimes, from the release valve that separates the
normal and emergency air system (the one down by the pilots right hand side
on the floor). It is suggested that air is escaping round the seal in the
main actuator and coming out on the low pressure side. Sounds fair to me.
1. On jacks will I hear a leak as I operate the gear ?
2. The nose gear is the one that lags when raised and the problem occurs.
3. What is the best way to change the seals ? I do remember someone posting
that the best way to do it was to leave the actuator attached on the top
side and unscrew the lower half of the actuator to service.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Gus Fraser
Message 6
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| Subject: | Yak-52 sighting devise |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Everyone: Merry Christmas and the best of new years. Question: I
designed, built and installed on NX52CG, my old Yak-52, a sight devise
on each wing. When I traded her for my -55 the sight gauges went with
her. Does anyone have them? Using them? Want to sell them? I have
two Yak-52 owners here in Colorado that want to install sight devises.
I still have the jigs but the real deal will help. They look like a
figure "4" with two legs. When I build up some for Joe Wilkins and
Allen Tinnes I'll build a few more just in case... Let me know off
line, home is rab@disc.com 970-532-5288. Thank you and God bless.
Rick
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: CJ Wing Bolts |
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST
version=2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Great information Jim!
Out of curiosity today I pulled out my new CJ wing bolt stock and compared
my one oversize bolt to the standard size. I expected to see something on
the order of + 0.010". I was surprised to find + 0.023". Maybe this is a
second and maximum oversize???
There appears to be no information in the manual to confirm this as an
acceptable oversize. I would be reluctant to go that far without further
reference material due to the reduction in tear-out area as you noted.
I'm sure you would agree that a bushing, in this application, would not be
an option.
General info;
Front spar bolt size; (CJ6 only - I expect the 52 is larger)
Std. 0.708" - 17.983mm
Max. Oversize?? 0.731" - 18.567mm
C/S and Wing attach fittings;
Material UTS as noted in glossary at front of manual (but not clearly
identified as applying to these fittings so should be confirmed by hardness
test);
120+/- 10 Kg/sq. mm or 170,000 +/- 14,000 psi.
This is in the range where hydrogen embrittlement is definately a factor to
be considered in the plating process.
Cheers;
Walt
--- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ivey" <jim@jimivey.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ Wing Bolts
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Jim Ivey <jim@jimivey.com>
>
> There are a few alternatives on the wing bolt holes, and I think Walt
> covered them very well. It is also not too uncommon to oversize
> original fitting holes and go up to the next approved diameter and then
> bushing the holes using original size-bolts. Most aircraft structural
> engineers worth their salt take this into consideration when designing
> fittings.
>
> Remember that the only limiting factor on this modification is the
> amount of remaining material in the fitting. As you drill out the hole
> the stresses the hole will see actually decrease (surface area is
> increased). Where the sticking point is is how much material is left to
> take whatever stress is present. Put another way, as this type of
> rework is accomplished the structural concerns shift away from the any
> bearing stress (bolt and hole) and shift toward a material "tear out"
> stress (meat left on the fitting). That's why folks like Boeing leave
> extra meat in their fittings and sometimes allow oversizing the fitting
> holes multiple times up to a specified limit.
>
>
> Frank Haertlein wrote:
>
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> >
> >Lou;
> >I hate to rain on your parade........ but reaming out the wing mounting
> >bosses on the fuselage and wing side is a MAJOR undertaking. By reaming
> >out the holes you could be reducing the strength of the bosses. The
> >degree of strength you loose would be proportional to the amount you
> >ream out. If it were me I'd consider replacing the affected parts or, as
> >a last resort, have a stress analysis done on the part. At any rate,
> >you're probly lookin' at getting custom bolts made for an iffy
> >situation.
> >
> >Fly Safe!
> >Frank
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | OPINIONS.................... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yakkers;
I'm ready to have my 52 painted so I've been looking/shopping for a
painter. Only problem was I didn't have a particular paint scheme in
mind.........how the hell do you paint a 52?
That's when I met up with Jean-Paul LeBlanc ( JeanPaul@msn.com ) He's a
painter/artist who serves the custom car market. He's currently working
two projects.........My 52 and a jet powered 46 Willies or something
like that.
To make a long story short, I gave him a "THEME" and let him be the
"ARTIST" while not really expecting much from him. I wanted a paint job
that somehow reflected a combination American/Russian theme in honor of
their great airplanes, our warming relations, and the freedom America
embodies. The preliminary design he came up with can be seen at
http://home.earthlink.net/~yak52driver/Propyak3.jpg
Keep in mind that this is a preliminary and a very rough sketch and
that's why I'm asking for everyone's opinion. If you like it, say so. If
you don't, say so. If you have any suggestions, say so. Gimme your
opinions and don't be bashful!! Let her rip good or bad!! I want this to
be right! Take a look and let me know what you think!
Frank
N911OM
Message 9
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| Subject: | OPINIONS............BEST Paint Shop in SouthWEST (Phoenix Area) |
less
expensive- NO ONE IS BETTER on the WEST COAST!!!
--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Schrick <schrick@pacbell.net>
Frank,
These guys can do and WILL do that paint scheme WELL!!!!!
They did Kurby Chamblis EDGE 540 (US Acro Champion) plane with wild yellow
paint scheme w/graphics.
I am having my bare metal YAK 52W being painted there and they only charged
$8500 to do the whole airplane.
Great guys and CRAFTSMEN. Call them and at least talk to them you might be
VERY SURPRISED.
JABS Custom Paint and Fabrication
Steve Hayes 520-568-4334
www.jabscustoms.com
8 airplane bay shop with HUGE paint booth.
Look at some of planes, boats and cars they have done and tell me that
someone else can do a better job for this kind of money.
Mark (SHREK) Schrick
Western USA Dealer for AEROSTAR (Yak 52TW/W)
966 Wallace Drive
San Jose, CA 95120
(408) 323-5150 phone/fax
(408) 391-6664 cell
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frank Haertlein
Subject: Yak-List: OPINIONS....................
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yakkers;
I'm ready to have my 52 painted so I've been looking/shopping for a
painter. Only problem was I didn't have a particular paint scheme in
mind.........how the hell do you paint a 52?
That's when I met up with Jean-Paul LeBlanc ( JeanPaul@msn.com ) He's a
painter/artist who serves the custom car market. He's currently working
two projects.........My 52 and a jet powered 46 Willies or something
like that.
To make a long story short, I gave him a "THEME" and let him be the
"ARTIST" while not really expecting much from him. I wanted a paint job
that somehow reflected a combination American/Russian theme in honor of
their great airplanes, our warming relations, and the freedom America
embodies. The preliminary design he came up with can be seen at
http://home.earthlink.net/~yak52driver/Propyak3.jpg
Keep in mind that this is a preliminary and a very rough sketch and
that's why I'm asking for everyone's opinion. If you like it, say so. If
you don't, say so. If you have any suggestions, say so. Gimme your
opinions and don't be bashful!! Let her rip good or bad!! I want this to
be right! Take a look and let me know what you think!
Frank
N911OM
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