Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:23 AM - Re: Yak accident (cjpilot710@aol.com)
2. 07:17 AM - Twigs and Females (Was: Yak accident) (Brian Lloyd)
3. 09:37 AM - Re: Yak accident (Lisa Kingscott)
4. 09:46 AM - Re: Yak accident (Craig Payne)
5. 10:02 AM - Re: Yak accident (bob fitz)
6. 10:41 AM - Re: Yak accident (Brian Lloyd)
7. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Transfer (Doug)
8. 12:07 PM - Yak accident update (Barry Hancock)
9. 02:31 PM - Re: Yak accident (Michael Di Marco)
10. 02:38 PM - Termikas (Frank Haertlein)
11. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Transfer (Drew Blahnick)
12. 03:38 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 01/10/03 (Skipsly@aol.com)
13. 03:44 PM - Sea Fest 2003 (MFilucci@aol.com)
14. 03:51 PM - FAST training (MFilucci@aol.com)
15. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 01/10/03 (cjpilot710@aol.com)
16. 06:33 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Transfer (Brian Lloyd)
17. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Transfer (Drew Blahnick)
18. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Transfer & other stuff (cjpilot710@aol.com)
19. 07:51 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Transfer & other stuff (Walt Fricke)
20. 08:23 PM - Re: Chinese air force symbol (Andrew Zheng \(China\))
21. 08:38 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Transfer (Walt Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Yak accident |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 1/10/2003 11:18:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
aapilot@adelphia.net writes:
> Damn, the dreaded Dave, on my heels again. And them are flat, flight boot,
> heels by the way...hook me up with a wealthy gal, I'm heading up there to
> fly with the Bay Area crowd in mid Feb...
Ever notice what pilots (real pilots) think about:?
1. Females ("hook me up with a wealthy gal").
2. Money ("a wealthy gal")
3. Their masculinity ("flat, flight boot heels by the way."..)
But then again that's the Left Coast for ya. Ya need to know which way the
twig is bent. ;-}
Anyway pilots is pilots. God! love this list!!!!
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710@aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-503-9820cell
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 2
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| Subject: | Twigs and Females (Was: Yak accident) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> Ever notice what pilots (real pilots) think about:?
> 1. Females ("hook me up with a wealthy gal").
> 2. Money ("a wealthy gal")
> 3. Their masculinity ("flat, flight boot heels by the way."..)
>
> But then again that's the Left Coast for ya.
Am I safe now that I am not on the left coast?
> Ya need to know which way the twig is bent. ;-}
I know which way my twig is bent! The problem is, I tend to get into the most
trouble when my twig is no longer bent.
You know, the airplane may be a financial drain but I know what it is going to
do to me. Women are totally different and unpredictable, kinda like flying an
airplane with neutral or slightly negative stability. The ride is breathtaking
but it takes a lot out of you too. Somebody put some saltpeter into my rations
again, please!
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Yak accident |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lisa Kingscott" <lisa@kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk>
Do you have any spare single rich men over there - even better if they are into
Yaks, big round engines and gas turbines?
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: KingCJ6@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 4:01 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak accident
--> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
Drew - RE: your quest to "marry rich", there are a number wealthy Rich's here
in the Bay area that you may wish to pursue. I'm sure most would cherish the
opportunity to hook up with a strapping 36 y.o. airline pilot. Your
proclivity for pink and power tools can only be a plus with their segment!
Dave
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Yak accident |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
Lisa,
ALL the single men over here are rich. ALL the married ones are poor.
Don't ask why, that's just how it is.
Craig "married, broke and Oh so happy..." Payne
>
> Do you have any spare single rich men over there - even better if they are into
Yaks, big round engines and gas turbines?
>
> Lisa
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "bob fitz" <rmfitz@direcway.com>
Lisa,
You sound a bit optomistic. Now if you want "single big round men with
gas that look like yaks" I could give you several references.
<http://skins.hotbar.com/skins/mailskins/em/033102/033102blink_1_prv.gif
>
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Kingscott
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak accident
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lisa Kingscott"
-->
Do you have any spare single rich men over there - even better if they
are into Yaks, big round engines and gas turbines?
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: KingCJ6@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak accident
--> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
Drew - RE: your quest to "marry rich", there are a number wealthy Rich's
here
in the Bay area that you may wish to pursue. I'm sure most would cherish
the
opportunity to hook up with a strapping 36 y.o. airline pilot. Your
proclivity for pink and power tools can only be a plus with their
segment!
Dave
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Share: Share photos & files with other List members.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Yak accident |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lisa Kingscott wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lisa Kingscott"
> <lisa@kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Do you have any spare single rich men over there - even better if they are
> into Yaks, big round engines and gas turbines?
No. If they are still rich, they aren't single. If they have gotten single
again, they are no longer rich because their ex-wives have it all.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Transfer |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Listers (those slightly out of trim fuel wise), and lurkers.
If you feel the need to mess with the flapper valve in your sump tank
(consumption tank to the Chinese), please remember that the flapper valve is
exactly that a flapper that can open and close. When you attempt to remove
it make sure that it is in the CLOSED position or it will "two block"
against the inside of the tank and you will twist off the flapper.
(experience speaks!!) This means that the tank should be out of the
aircraft and on its side. And yes I do have spares of this item. Once out
and altered in the way that only you feel it needs to be, remember that with
the aircraft in cruise configuration the hinged portion should be exactly
parallel to the line of flight. Canting it either forward or backward will
result in less than proper operation. I have a hunch that if the flapper is
in fact the culprit here, canting it on installation may be the major cause
of the malfunction. I have seen flapper valves modified by using a center
punch, small rat tail file, and what looked to be simple nicking the seat
with a chisel. School is still out as to the best method of "modifying" the
flapper valve, or in fact rather or not this will help the problem. When
asked about it the factory denies any such modification is necessary, but it
is obvious that the field units will disagree as we have all seen this done.
One last note. When and if you do accomplish your goal and do get equal
flow by modifying the flapper, make sure you plainly mark them and the tank
"Left" and "right" to prevent a mix up if you ever have to remove them
again.
The mini yak is slowly progressing, hope to see you all at Red Star.
Always yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Thayer" <doug.thayer@charter.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Fuel Transfer
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Thayer" <doug.thayer@charter.net>
>
> Ernie,
> I have had a similar fuel transfer problem. It won't get better. It
sounds
> like
> it can't get much worse though. With the aircraft stationary, level and
> both fuel caps off,
> I drained all the fuel throught the sump valve on the bottom of the
fuselage
> with a
> similar result, 40l in left tank 0l in right tank. We pulled the ckeck
> valve assembly
> and found badly sticking check valves as described in prior threads. The
> flapper
> assembly is copper? or brass? and seemed to be corroded or gummy. When
dry
> they worked great but with only a small amount of moisture, the surface
> tension of
> one check valve would actually support the weight of a medium size screw
> driver. It was amazing how hard it was to open that flapper. I replaced
> the whole assembly with the help of
> a part from George Coy in Dec. I will let you know how it worked. BTW,
> You asked
> if the engine would run with one full and one empty tank. I don't know
but
> the fuel
> flows VERY slowly with one tank full and one empty. Contact me off list
to
> get specifics on
> changing out the assembly. It can be tricky in a Yak-52.
> Semper fi,
> Doug Thayer
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Yak accident update |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
I have read with much interest the thread about training, the Yak-3
being single seat, formation training being of little help WRT operating
an aircraft, etc.
Here are the facts as I understand them:
Yak-3 with low time in type, relatively low TT, and no (to my knowledge)
formal formation training, crashed upon landing as part of a formation
flight at Parker, AZ. The pilot sustained a serious blow to the head
but, thankfully, is expected to be released from the hospital today.
The reasons for the crash are still not known, other than the aircraft
stalled/spun just out of ground effect on an attempted go around after a
bounced landing.
I have not yet talked with the pilot directly, but I imagine that his
lack of formation experience directly contributed to the
accident...through the secondary factors of stress bred by
unfamiliarity. If nothing else, attending an event such as Red Star to,
as Drew put it, "get more time in the bucket"...with the safety and
comfort of an IP in the back seat...will go a long ways in relieving
said stress and allow the pilot to concentrate on operating his
aircraft. Formation training certainly is not a cure-all, however it is
most certainly a necessity if you are going to engage in the activity.
The time to learn is not when you are flying somewhere with a bunch of
guys that are teaching you the cross-under signal in the pre-flight
briefing.
Finally, this Yak-3 (with an R-2000, which will blow the doors of a
stock P-51 at a fraction of the cost) is dual seat, as are most of the
"single seat" fighters today. The pilot in question had obtained his
LOA early last year and had done so after 30 hours of back seat time in
a T-6 prior to his LOA checkout. Besides the lack of formation
experience, the pilot had not flown many hours in the past 60 days. If
nothing else, Red Star '03 is a great place to come a fly A LOT with
your comrades, learn from their collective experiences, kick some Canuck
butt in Crud, and go home a more proficient pilot.
Cheers,
Barry
Barry Hancock
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
California Condors Squadron
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Michael Di Marco <mgdimarco@yahoo.com>
The standard banter(arguement) that follows an accident/incident involves the "experience
versus proficency" position papers every time. It may just save time
to respond with a "No Change" rather than rehash the same commentary over and
over.
Mike
China Blue
"BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com> wrote:--> Yak-List message
posted by: "BUTLER, FRANCIS"
So how would training at Redstar with a single seat Yak 3 help that driver with
a landing at Parker? I think if you go check the Yak accident stats most of them
involve retired military, ATP's,Commercial tickets and flight instructers.
Plenty of expirience there. Just because a guy has a few bucks does not mean
he is an incompetent pilot. Safety is an attitude not specific to a number of
hours of dual or PIC time or having miltary training.
I started flying my Yak 50 with 10 hours of Champ time. (had to buy the Champ,
because no-one provides tailwheel aircraft for duel in my part of the country)
Is someone telling me that Redstar would have provided training for my Yak 50?
How does formation training help a guy on landing a Yak 3? I attended the Yak
event in Nebraska in 2001 just for one day because I was told I couldn't participate
in any training due to haveing a single seat Yak 50. How's a guy going
to get type specific training or FAST training with a single seat ship? A Yak
3 may be my next aircraft.
F.Butler
Yak 50
-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Blahnick [mailto:aapilot@adelphia.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Yak accident
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick"
Yesterday I spoke with the owner of a Yak 3 at Chino heading to the Parker airshow,
he was looking forward to the event, and we spoke of the free gas and lodging
provided for his participation. Watching him takeoff with a P-51 was one
heck of a site. He was still very new to the aircraft and I had hoped he would
attend Red Star for the opportunity to learn and train with others in this type
of aircraft (he was invited last year when he first began flying his Yak 3).
Unfortunately Barry just informed me he heard the pilot crashed at Parker on landing.
He's alive, significantly injured, but we don't know any details on his
condition.
As we plan for this event (Red Star 03), I sometimes wonder why a wealthy individual
who purchased or spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on a heavy metal
warbird or Jet would ever spend their own money on gas/jet fuel to attend a training
fly-in, since it lacks the glamour and freebies found on the airshow curcuit.
This is why.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My only comment on the mishap flight, and it has no bearing with the mishap itself,
is from the briefing. Compared to what I've now grown accostomed to with
this community, there was a lack of kinship here (if I can use that term) manifested
in brevity, not from flying together, but from a lack of flying together.
The mentality was more of (not said, but implied), "you own a heavy metal warbird,
you should know what you're doing, so let's turn and burn, two's job is
to be there, see ya on 35.95". It was a milk run, but knowing the formation
experience of this pilot and his time in type, it made you think...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From $350,000 L-39s, to $400,000 classic Yaks to $80,000 CJs, low to moderately
experienced pilots purchase their dream aircraft, obtain a limited amount of
training and then look towards airshows and the opportunities to operate their
complex equipment 'for free' (so to speak). From my vantage point here, having
spoken with folks at Oshkosh, Reno and here at Chino, the more expensive the
warbird, the less time is spent training and becoming trully proficient. We can
understand that based on operating costs, but sometimes that old saying, "pay
me now or pay me later" really does apply.
At Red Star 2002 we broke all expectations on attendance for the Military Trainer
catagory, thanks to you all. Yet we had 1 Yak 11, 2 L-39s and an L-29 looking
for, or ready to provide, training opportunities for other pilots in like aircraft.
And I know those aircraft and their pilots are right here in the Western
Region, we almost lost one yesterday. Perhaps if Red Stars had a major corperate
fuel sponsor folks would show for training, but that's unlikely without
also bringing in the crowds and removing the focused training element.
Without a major fuel sponsor, our only incentive is a pilots own sense of preservation
and to make Red Star fun, and as I was told yesterday by the symbolic
mayor of Atwater who also runs the FBO, the differance between the CAF and RED
STARS (both hold events at Castle AFB) is "those red star pilots know how to
have fun"... I hope the infection spreads...
I moved the dates of Red Star 03 ( now May 7 to May 11) to avoid conflict with
a major Western Warbird event, in the hopes local warbird pilots flying our unique
aircraft would see the cost-benefit in getting out of town and training for
a few days, forgetting about crowds, multi-ship air schedules, airshow air
bosses and the like. I also believe that pilots of these heavy metal Red Star
aircraft will feel more welcome among you all, your teamwork, cooperative nature
and "let's just get good at this" attitude last year was really impressive.
Put another way, I was searching for, and never saw, the stuffy, "holier than
though" , "this is an exclusive club" mentality which drives some to go it alone,
or to participate just on a minimal level.
If you know of pilots who own this type of equipment out here, send them an invite,
or this e-mail.
Many of you are on our e-mail list and yesterday/today recieved a Red Star 2003
announcement e-mail directly, if you are thinking of attending Red Star this
year, and did NOT get a direct e-mail sent to you on the event, please e-mail
me directly so I can add you to our e-mail list, this will help in early planning
and direct e-mail updates..
Drew Allen Blahnick & Barry Hancock
310.386.9181
www.allredstar.com
"Communism: Lousy Politics - Great Airplanes"
---------------------------------
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
The Termikas website has been gone for more than a week. Anyone know
what happened to the company? I was looking to get some airframe parts
from them. I want to get the new composite fairings and a spinner.
Anyone know where I can get these pieces?
Frank
N911OM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Transfer |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
This has surfaced once again on our aircraft (it never really left), just
FYI, I always welcome others opinions/experiences;
On #43 we are experiencing a 3 to 1 fuel burn ratio, i.e 3 gallons gone from
the left for every 1 burned from the right. Now, before you make that
statement about lazy rudders, I went out the other day after balancing the
refrence source (the bean ;), I then went out with even tanks and
agressively flew coordinated flight from start to finish, and attempted to
induce right wing dominant feed during cruise. Upon landing, I had 3.6
gallons burned from the right, 9 gallons even burned from the left. Please
note:
1. My right flapper valve was removed inspected and notched according to the
posts here. Will recheck installation based on Dougs point about cantered
valve.
2. Right wing is feeding, and when the left is 'allowed' to burn down to
about 20% full, the right appears to become dominant. (that's from a test
several months ago, need to repeat that).
It seems improbably, that a C-130 pilot (i.e. had to use the rudders the
last ten years) is overcoming, 100% of the time, the natural forces of
gravity working on an imbalanced force that can grow from a 3 to 1 burn
ratio, but then again, I don't carry a slide rule. For all I know the
airframe could be bent, but she flys pretty straight ;)
Next up: recheck right flapper valve reinstall....vent line clearing from
possible partial blockage...see what Barrys independant vent system does for
him...
Drew
Drew Allen Blahnick
310.386.9181
www.allredstar.com
California Condors Squadron
"Communism: Lousy Politics - Great Airplanes"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Fuel Transfer
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Listers (those slightly out of trim fuel wise), and lurkers.
>
> If you feel the need to mess with the flapper valve in your sump tank
> (consumption tank to the Chinese), please remember that the flapper valve
is
> exactly that a flapper that can open and close. When you attempt to
remove
> it make sure that it is in the CLOSED position or it will "two block"
> against the inside of the tank and you will twist off the flapper.
> (experience speaks!!) This means that the tank should be out of the
> aircraft and on its side. And yes I do have spares of this item. Once
out
> and altered in the way that only you feel it needs to be, remember that
with
> the aircraft in cruise configuration the hinged portion should be exactly
> parallel to the line of flight. Canting it either forward or backward
will
> result in less than proper operation. I have a hunch that if the flapper
is
> in fact the culprit here, canting it on installation may be the major
cause
> of the malfunction. I have seen flapper valves modified by using a center
> punch, small rat tail file, and what looked to be simple nicking the seat
> with a chisel. School is still out as to the best method of "modifying"
the
> flapper valve, or in fact rather or not this will help the problem. When
> asked about it the factory denies any such modification is necessary, but
it
> is obvious that the field units will disagree as we have all seen this
done.
> One last note. When and if you do accomplish your goal and do get equal
> flow by modifying the flapper, make sure you plainly mark them and the
tank
> "Left" and "right" to prevent a mix up if you ever have to remove them
> again.
>
> The mini yak is slowly progressing, hope to see you all at Red Star.
>
> Always yakin,
> Doug Sapp
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Thayer" <doug.thayer@charter.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Fuel Transfer
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Thayer" <doug.thayer@charter.net>
> >
> > Ernie,
> > I have had a similar fuel transfer problem. It won't get better. It
> sounds
> > like
> > it can't get much worse though. With the aircraft stationary, level and
> > both fuel caps off,
> > I drained all the fuel throught the sump valve on the bottom of the
> fuselage
> > with a
> > similar result, 40l in left tank 0l in right tank. We pulled the ckeck
> > valve assembly
> > and found badly sticking check valves as described in prior threads.
The
> > flapper
> > assembly is copper? or brass? and seemed to be corroded or gummy. When
> dry
> > they worked great but with only a small amount of moisture, the surface
> > tension of
> > one check valve would actually support the weight of a medium size screw
> > driver. It was amazing how hard it was to open that flapper. I
replaced
> > the whole assembly with the help of
> > a part from George Coy in Dec. I will let you know how it worked. BTW,
> > You asked
> > if the engine would run with one full and one empty tank. I don't know
> but
> > the fuel
> > flows VERY slowly with one tank full and one empty. Contact me off
list
> to
> > get specifics on
> > changing out the assembly. It can be tricky in a Yak-52.
> > Semper fi,
> > Doug Thayer
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 01/10/03 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Skipsly@aol.com
In a message dated 01/11/2003 4:00:17 AM Atlantic Standard Time,
yak-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Thayer" <doug.thayer@charter.net>
>
Yo Doug! Just found out that you're a Yakista! Sure could use some more VT-23
horsepower in the YPA...I'm surrounded by Air Force Pukes!
Skip Ranger Rick Slyfield
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
In a message dated 1/10/03 5:37:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cjpilot710@aol.com writes:
> I believe it around the West Palm area.
Sea Fest is on a site adjacent to the Cape Canaveral/Kennedy Space Center
launch center. I flew in an eleven-ship formation over the site last year (3
passes). It is a good opportunity to practice some mass formation work for a
crowd that really appreciates the sight of our airplanes overhead.
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
In a message dated 1/10/03 6:17:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com writes:
> How's a guy going to get type specific training or FAST training with a
> single seat ship?
Francis,
The best way to get your FAST formation training is to start in a
dual-control aircraft. Once you reach the point where you are safe to solo
you can switch to your Yak-50 and complete the training. Under the FAST
protocol, a checkride can be given to a pilot in a single-seat aircraft --
the methodology is detailed in the checkride practical test standard.
Mike Filucci
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 01/10/03 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 1/11/2003 6:38:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Skipsly@aol.com writes:
> Yo Doug! Just found out that you're a Yakista! Sure could use some more
> VT-23
> horsepower in the YPA...I'm surrounded by Air Force Pukes!
>
> Skip Ranger Rick Slyfield
Hush yowl mouth boy. Mind your place!
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710@aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-503-9820cell
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Transfer |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Drew Blahnick wrote:
> possible partial blockage...see what Barrys independant vent system does for
> him...
The problem with a system such as the CJ6A has is that even very slight
differences in vent pressure can make a huge difference in fuel flow. I would
be very wary of separate vents where both tanks feed simultaneously. If you
don't agree then I recommend you read the history of venting on Cessna aircraft
that are able to feed from both tanks simultaneously. Assymetric fuel feed has
been an ongoing problem with Cessna aircraft. There is a technical letter from
the Cessna owners society/group that details this history. Cessna went through
all the gyrations discussed here including vented caps, separate vents, single
vents, intertank cross venting, etc., to no real avail. They did have a problem
with a siphon starting between tanks through the vent line.
Do consider that this airplane has been flying for longer than some of you have
been on this earth. I suspect that the Chinese have seen and dealt with the
problems long before we experienced them. This seems like a topic of discussion
for Dr. Cheng.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Transfer |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Good suggestion...
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> Drew Blahnick wrote:
> > possible partial blockage...see what Barrys independant vent system does
for
> > him...
>
> The problem with a system such as the CJ6A has is that even very slight
> differences in vent pressure can make a huge difference in fuel flow. I
would
> be very wary of separate vents where both tanks feed simultaneously. If
you
> don't agree then I recommend you read the history of venting on Cessna
aircraft
> that are able to feed from both tanks simultaneously. Assymetric fuel
feed has
> been an ongoing problem with Cessna aircraft. There is a technical letter
from
> the Cessna owners society/group that details this history. Cessna went
through
> all the gyrations discussed here including vented caps, separate vents,
single
> vents, intertank cross venting, etc., to no real avail. They did have a
problem
> with a siphon starting between tanks through the vent line.
>
> Do consider that this airplane has been flying for longer than some of you
have
> been on this earth. I suspect that the Chinese have seen and dealt with
the
> problems long before we experienced them. This seems like a topic of
discussion
> for Dr. Cheng.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
> brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Transfer & other stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Uneven fuel burn from the fuel tanks has been with the CJ since it was a
prototype. It has virtually the same fuel system as the T-34B, i.e., both L &
R tanks feeding though flapper valves into a header tank, than to the
engine. The T-34B guys have the same problem. It is trim - trim-trim.
The fuel tanks are far more sensitive to 'level' than the seat of your pants
can tell. Your ball on your slip/skid may show that your piloting skills are
faultless, but it can be "off" and it wouldn't take much at all.
A million years ago, when I was young copilot at Pan Am on the 707, we had a
captain that was testing a fuel burn procedure for the company. He would
check the level (roll) of the 707 by using a water level that he would setup
in the cockpit during cruise. It was far more accurate than any of the
standard stuff. It went from one side of the cockpit to the other. What the
out come of all his intense records keeping was, I never knew.
The T-34B guys over come their heavy foot by having an adjustable rudder trim
(thanks to Beechcraft) and trim into the heavy tank to get it to feed. Them
who do the formation flying often find them selves using fuel out of one tank
also. We all (well, maybe not me) 'shy out' with one foot on the rudder,
thus impart a very slight yaw that leads to uneven burn.
I think the first thing I'd check if I knew my flying was flawless, would be
to check the level of your slip/skid indecator.
Different note:
Last couple of flights, I had "spongy" brakes. At one point I notice that
the higher the pressure on my system gage, the better braking I seem to have.
After conversing with the notable experts, I removed the QS-1 pressure
reducing valve, opened it up and found several slivers the lead sealing
washer the Chinese use, loose and stuck under the brass valve inside.
Cleaning, lubricating, and reinstalling, it works normal now.
However! Ernie Martinz and I did a little formation up to small airshow up
to Keystone. On the way home I dropped into Kay Larkin airport for fuel.
Done, I had normal run-up and took off for home. Half way there, the right
mag went dead on me. It manifest itself, by the engine running rough for a
few seconds and than smoothing out. 45 seconds to a minute later, it would
run rough again for just 2 or 3 seconds at the most. It gets your attention.
Since I had just put fuel in the tanks, I though that I may have gotten some
contaminates. I started climbing (gives you more time to contemplate your
predicament) and since the instrument were all normal, including the fuel
pressure even when the engine was running rough, I decided to check the mags.
When I check the right (#2) mag, the engine quit. That settles that and I
went the rest of the way home (a very long 7 nm) contemplating our aviation
forefather edicts for dual ignition.
Next week I have ground school on the B-17 and B-24 for next season's tour
and may not be able to get it fix in time for the Pompano Airshow (Sam and
Gary please note) there for the true cause of the right mags malaise will
remain a mystery till than.
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710@aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-503-9820cell
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Transfer & other stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Fricke <walterfricke@yahoo.com>
The T-34B guys over come their heavy foot by having an
adjustable
rudder trim
(thanks to Beechcraft) and trim into the heavy tank to
get it to feed.
Don't you have a rudder trim in your CJ Jim?? What
year was yours manufactured? Mine is a 72 and
rudderdder trim is a little rognarledrled knob on the
left side of the panel. It gets active use for climb,
cruise and descent profiles and I have no uneven fuel
burn.
On a separate note, can anyone explain why I cannot
seem to keepcylinderndar head temperatconsistenttant?
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese air force symbol |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Andrew Zheng \(China\)" <cjcyak@163bj.com>
Hi all,
I have a Chinese air force symbol picture which they use on their building and
uniform. It looks different with the star on our CJ. If any one want the picture,
just let me know. I will email to you.
Andrew from China
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Transfer |
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST
version=2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Drew;
Fuel feed problems with the CJ6 seem to be a continuing problem. I agree
with Doug re proper positioning of the flapper valve. I permanently mark the
lower center line position externally and tighten so that the valve C/L is
vertical, (ie; hinge horizontal). In order to do this I replace the Chinese
fibre washers with copper/asbestos crush washers (AN 900 If I remember
correctly).
I have not been center punching or scoring the valve faces, just thoroughly
cleaning them but I think I will center punch from now on. Surface tension
is a factor in delaying valve action and the small amount of leakage caused
by punch marks is probably acceptable.
But now to what may be the major problem. I have had two CJ's that continued
to feed poorly (from the RH tank!) after doing all of the above and other
good things like blowing out the vent lines, etc.
Since it always seems to be the RH side where the vent path is much longer
and a partial blockage would have a greater effect I decided to get serious
about cleaning the vent lines.
Blowing the lines with high pressure air and/or solvent will likely remove a
total block but will not guaranty a clean line since the residue left by
insects, leaf cutter bee's etc. seems totally resistant to every solvent
devised by man. The only one that works is water.
I use a mixture of detergent and hot water, shop air pressure, lots of clean
hot water rinse, shop air dry and a hell of a lot of patience. Both aircraft
were greatly improved.
Major caution note!!! - Disconnect ALL vent line connections including the
header tank and cap the fittings going into the tanks - you will have soap
and water everwhere.
Shop air pressure will totally destroy a fuel tank before you can even think
Oh S#%&.
Good luck;
Walt
PS. You probably should do this on a nice warm day 'cause you are going to
get wet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Fuel Transfer
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
>
> This has surfaced once again on our aircraft (it never really left), just
> FYI, I always welcome others opinions/experiences;
>
> On #43 we are experiencing a 3 to 1 fuel burn ratio, i.e 3 gallons gone
from
> the left for every 1 burned from the right. Now, before you make that
> statement about lazy rudders, I went out the other day after balancing the
> refrence source (the bean ;), I then went out with even tanks and
> agressively flew coordinated flight from start to finish, and attempted to
> induce right wing dominant feed during cruise. Upon landing, I had 3.6
> gallons burned from the right, 9 gallons even burned from the left.
Please
> note:
>
> 1. My right flapper valve was removed inspected and notched according to
the
> posts here. Will recheck installation based on Dougs point about cantered
> valve.
>
> 2. Right wing is feeding, and when the left is 'allowed' to burn down to
> about 20% full, the right appears to become dominant. (that's from a test
> several months ago, need to repeat that).
>
> It seems improbably, that a C-130 pilot (i.e. had to use the rudders the
> last ten years) is overcoming, 100% of the time, the natural forces of
> gravity working on an imbalanced force that can grow from a 3 to 1 burn
> ratio, but then again, I don't carry a slide rule. For all I know the
> airframe could be bent, but she flys pretty straight ;)
>
> Next up: recheck right flapper valve reinstall....vent line clearing from
> possible partial blockage...see what Barrys independant vent system does
for
> him...
>
> Drew
>
>
> Drew Allen Blahnick
> 310.386.9181
> www.allredstar.com
> California Condors Squadron
> "Communism: Lousy Politics - Great Airplanes"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Fuel Transfer
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >
> > Listers (those slightly out of trim fuel wise), and lurkers.
> >
> > If you feel the need to mess with the flapper valve in your sump tank
> > (consumption tank to the Chinese), please remember that the flapper
valve
> is
> > exactly that a flapper that can open and close. When you attempt to
> remove
> > it make sure that it is in the CLOSED position or it will "two block"
> > against the inside of the tank and you will twist off the flapper.
> > (experience speaks!!) This means that the tank should be out of the
> > aircraft and on its side. And yes I do have spares of this item. Once
> out
> > and altered in the way that only you feel it needs to be, remember that
> with
> > the aircraft in cruise configuration the hinged portion should be
exactly
> > parallel to the line of flight. Canting it either forward or backward
> will
> > result in less than proper operation. I have a hunch that if the
flapper
> is
> > in fact the culprit here, canting it on installation may be the major
> cause
> > of the malfunction. I have seen flapper valves modified by using a
center
> > punch, small rat tail file, and what looked to be simple nicking the
seat
> > with a chisel. School is still out as to the best method of "modifying"
> the
> > flapper valve, or in fact rather or not this will help the problem.
When
> > asked about it the factory denies any such modification is necessary,
but
> it
> > is obvious that the field units will disagree as we have all seen this
> done.
> > One last note. When and if you do accomplish your goal and do get equal
> > flow by modifying the flapper, make sure you plainly mark them and the
> tank
> > "Left" and "right" to prevent a mix up if you ever have to remove them
> > again.
> >
> > The mini yak is slowly progressing, hope to see you all at Red Star.
> >
> > Always yakin,
> > Doug Sapp
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Doug Thayer" <doug.thayer@charter.net>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Yak-List: Re: Fuel Transfer
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Thayer"
<doug.thayer@charter.net>
> > >
> > > Ernie,
> > > I have had a similar fuel transfer problem. It won't get better. It
> > sounds
> > > like
> > > it can't get much worse though. With the aircraft stationary, level
and
> > > both fuel caps off,
> > > I drained all the fuel throught the sump valve on the bottom of the
> > fuselage
> > > with a
> > > similar result, 40l in left tank 0l in right tank. We pulled the
ckeck
> > > valve assembly
> > > and found badly sticking check valves as described in prior threads.
> The
> > > flapper
> > > assembly is copper? or brass? and seemed to be corroded or gummy.
When
> > dry
> > > they worked great but with only a small amount of moisture, the
surface
> > > tension of
> > > one check valve would actually support the weight of a medium size
screw
> > > driver. It was amazing how hard it was to open that flapper. I
> replaced
> > > the whole assembly with the help of
> > > a part from George Coy in Dec. I will let you know how it worked.
BTW,
> > > You asked
> > > if the engine would run with one full and one empty tank. I don't
know
> > but
> > > the fuel
> > > flows VERY slowly with one tank full and one empty. Contact me off
> list
> > to
> > > get specifics on
> > > changing out the assembly. It can be tricky in a Yak-52.
> > > Semper fi,
> > > Doug Thayer
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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