Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:41 AM - Re: Trim and bottles tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, (Brian Lloyd)
2. 04:54 AM - Re: Electric trim failure (Brian Lloyd)
3. 04:56 AM - Re: GA v. warbirds / shameless plug (Brian Lloyd)
4. 08:16 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 01/18/03 (John W Finley)
5. 10:14 AM - Yak 12 sold (Lisa Kingscott)
6. 12:33 PM - Re: Trim and bottles tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.43 (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 02:15 PM - Re: Accident statistics (Joe Nygard)
8. 02:28 PM - Re: Trim and bottles (Walt Lannon)
9. 02:36 PM - Re: Accident statistics (cjpilot710@aol.com)
10. 04:16 PM - Our rights... Interesting reading. (Terry Calloway)
11. 07:05 PM - Re: Our rights... Interesting reading. (Craig Payne)
12. 07:38 PM - formation USA (cjpilot710@aol.com)
13. 07:52 PM - Re: formation USA (Walt Fricke)
14. 09:02 PM - Chinese training (Barry Hancock)
15. 09:11 PM - burned valves (Jon Boede)
16. 10:48 PM - Why electric trim? (Barry Hancock)
17. 11:42 PM - Re: Accident statistics - Single-Seat Checkout (Harry Hirschman)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Trim and bottles tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, |
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Walt Lannon wrote:
> Strangely enough the CJ comes equipped with a perfectly good pitch trim
> system in an aircraft so well balanced one hardly needs it.
I agree.
> The roll and yaw
> trim, once set, is also totally adequate.
I have found that there are times when I would like to trim the aileron and
rudder in flight, usually when I have been lax in keeping the airplane exactly
level and I have burned more out of one tank than the other.
> Why anyone would want to waste
> time and money with a 3 axis electric trim kind of blows me away.
Uh, they have time and money to waste?
> OH!! I
> forgot! It's needed for the 3 axis autopilot.
> How's that for inimitable.
I never did see a need for a three-axis autopilot. I have found heading hold
and GPS tracking desirable when flying single pilot IFR, usually right around
the time ATC says (for the third time in ten minutes), "1234X, we have amended
routing. Advise when ready to copy."
But then again, these are toys, aren't they.
Ever notice that the Yak-52 drivers don't ask about electric trim and autopilots?
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Electric trim failure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Barry Hancock wrote:
> This will be interesting - electric trim failure that is. I suspect
> that at normal speed one should easily be able to overcome a run-away
> trim servo....I'm going to go full nose up and nose down trim in the
> Super Pickle to simulate this with the elevator trim so I have some
> peace of mind during my test flights of the project. Furthermore, I'm
> going to disable the trim during aerobatic maneuvers just to be on the
> safe side. The Mac type servos seem to be very reliable, but I'm
> planning for the worst....
You and Hal seem to have the same system. Did you put the electric trim on just
one tab or on both? Seems to me I remember Hal saying that only one tab was
used. Certainly reducing the tab size by a factor of two would reduce the
problem of runaway pitch trim but I wonder if it will have sufficient authority
a the low speed end of the envelope with a foward CG.
> Hey, Brian, my mouth hit the floor when I heard what Randy's shop rate
> is.....
Randy and I have been friends for many years. He is worth every penny he gets.
And when people see the project they are going to want his services too.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: GA v. warbirds / shameless plug |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Barry Hancock wrote:
> community....hey, wait, that's a perfect opportunity for a seg-
> way....speaking of eduction, Red Star '03 will have a number of
> presentations by widely know authorities on systems and operations of
> our aircraft. Mark your calendar now to be a part of the largest get
> together of our aircraft on the west coast...and perhaps the entire
> country.
Frankly, I would like to see the Chinese come over and do a two-week training
session on systems and maintenance of the CJ6A. It should cost about $2000 per
person attending.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 01/18/03 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: John W Finley <finleycj6@juno.com>
To answer inquiries about using SCUBA tanks for standby air, you can get
a SCUBA tank refilled almost anywhere. We even have a dive shop in
Alamogordo, NM. A "pony" tank costs a little over $100.00, and no problem
with fittings. Just keep a couple of extra "O" rings, they're easy to
lose...John
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lisa Kingscott" <lisa@kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk>
Hi All,
Well, I have sold my Yak 12.
Hopefully I will be not be Yakless for long, but that depends on the economic situation.
Lisa
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Trim and bottles tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, |
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST
version=2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Originally equipped YAK 52's have self-centering springs on the elevator and
aileron. Let go of the stick and it came back to neutral. Sort of like a
poor man's autopilot. I'm sure almost all have been removed though. I had
them on mine when I first bought the airplane 3 1/2 years ago and it was
nice on a cross country. Otherwise, no big deal.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Trim and bottles
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,USER_AGENT_OE,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.43
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> Walt Lannon wrote:
> > Strangely enough the CJ comes equipped with a perfectly good pitch trim
> > system in an aircraft so well balanced one hardly needs it.
>
> I agree.
>
> > The roll and yaw
> > trim, once set, is also totally adequate.
>
> I have found that there are times when I would like to trim the aileron
and
> rudder in flight, usually when I have been lax in keeping the airplane
exactly
> level and I have burned more out of one tank than the other.
>
> > Why anyone would want to waste
> > time and money with a 3 axis electric trim kind of blows me away.
>
> Uh, they have time and money to waste?
>
> > OH!! I
> > forgot! It's needed for the 3 axis autopilot.
> > How's that for inimitable.
>
> I never did see a need for a three-axis autopilot. I have found heading
hold
> and GPS tracking desirable when flying single pilot IFR, usually right
around
> the time ATC says (for the third time in ten minutes), "1234X, we have
amended
> routing. Advise when ready to copy."
>
> But then again, these are toys, aren't they.
>
> Ever notice that the Yak-52 drivers don't ask about electric trim and
autopilots?
>
> --
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
> brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
Message 7
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<yak-list@matronics.com.Gecko/20020508.Netscape6/6.2.3>
| Subject: | Accident statistics |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Joe Nygard" <jnygard@cisco.com>
As a low time pilot, my insurance company required 25 hours dual for me to
fly my CJ solo then an additional 15 hours to carry a passenger.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of William
> Halverson
> Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 3:35 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com.Gecko/20020508.Netscape6/6.2.3
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Accident statistics
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: William Halverson <william@netpros.net>
>
> Hmmm ... but how do you get dual in a Yak-55? What would they consider
> 'acceptable' as a stand in? I had to fly mine bareass [no insurance at
> all] X-ctry from Vermont to CA to tet the mimimum in type to even get a
> quote ...
>
>
> Roy O. Wright wrote:
>
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roy O. Wright" <roy@wright.org>
> >
> >
> >Overall, my thoughts to reduce risk is to fly higher and be sure
> >of the mechanical state of my machine (when it finally gets here).
> >An interesting note was how many of the accidents were on the
> >ferry home flight after purchase and even one on the pre-purchase
> >flight itself. Maybe this is why the insurance companies want
> >a lot of dual now a days.
> >
> >Have fun,
> >Roy
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Trim and bottles |
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,SUBJ_ENDS_IN_SPACE,USER_AGENT_OE,
USER_IN_WHITELIST
version=2.43
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Trim and bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> Originally equipped YAK 52's have self-centering springs on the elevator
and
> aileron. Let go of the stick and it came back to neutral. Sort of like a
> poor man's autopilot. I'm sure almost all have been removed though. I
had
> them on mine when I first bought the airplane 3 1/2 years ago and it was
> nice on a cross country. Otherwise, no big deal.
> Dennis Savarese
Hi Dennis;
Interesting. Brings back old memories. The Fairchild PT's (at least the
Canadian built version of the PT26 or Cornell) had centering springs for the
elevator. Apparently meant to improve spin recovery.
Cheers;
Walt
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Accident statistics |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 1/19/2003 5:15:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jnygard@cisco.com writes:
>
> As a low time pilot, my insurance company required 25 hours dual for me to
> fly my CJ solo then an additional 15 hours to carry a passenger.
> Joe
Joe,
What is your total time and ratings?
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710@aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-503-9820cell
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 10
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| Subject: | Our rights... Interesting reading. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway@datatechnique.com>
After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a
Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face
covered, one American had had enough. This is an editorial written by an
American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper. Did quite a job,
didn't he?
IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some
individual or his culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we
have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.
However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
"politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that
our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who
is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost
entirely composed of descendants of immigrants.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to
our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This
idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to
dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own
language and our own lifestyle.
This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials,
and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Japanese,
Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of
our society, learn the language!
"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian,
right-wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian
men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, a fact
which is abundantly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display
it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you
consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part
of our culture.
If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then
you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we
really don't care how you did things where you came from.
This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment
gives every citizen the right to express his opinion, and we will allow
you every opportunity to do so. But once you're done complaining,
whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or
our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other
great American freedom: THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
If you agree, please pass this along
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Our rights... Interesting reading. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
Terry,
Check this on the Truth or Fiction.com site:
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/facecovered.htm
Also interesting.
Craig Payne
Terry Calloway wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway@datatechnique.com>
>
> After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a
> Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face
> covered, one American had had enough. This is an editorial written by an
> American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper. Did quite a job,
> didn't he?
>
> IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
>
> I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some
> individual or his culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we
> have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.
> However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
> "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that
> our patriotism was offending others.
> I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who
> is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost
> entirely composed of descendants of immigrants.
> However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to
> our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This
> idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to
> dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
> As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own
> language and our own lifestyle.
> This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials,
> and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
> We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Japanese,
> Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of
> our society, learn the language!
> "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian,
> right-wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian
> men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, a fact
> which is abundantly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display
> it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you
> consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part
> of our culture.
> If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then
> you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
> We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we
> really don't care how you did things where you came from.
> This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment
> gives every citizen the right to express his opinion, and we will allow
> you every opportunity to do so. But once you're done complaining,
> whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or
> our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other
> great American freedom: THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
>
> If you agree, please pass this along
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Lately I was sent a picture of F-16s flying a formation over Randolph Field
in Texas, in the shape of USA. It required some 32 aircraft I think. It was
a nice photograph but it was fake.
However T.C. "Bumper" Caloway asked me what I thought.
Well, gang I really think we have the talent in our group to do it.
We just need 32 guys/gals with CJs & Yaks.
AND what better year to do this at OSH than this 100th year of aviation.
Think about it folks. USA. USA. Hay Sly! You want to lead the U or S or
A?
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710@aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-503-9820cell
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: formation USA |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Fricke <walterfricke@yahoo.com>
> Well, gang I really think we have the talent in our
> group to do it.
> We just need 32 guys/gals with CJs & Yaks.
> AND what better year to do this at OSH than this
> 100th year of aviation.
>
> Think about it folks. USA. USA. Hay Sly! You
> want to lead the U or S or
Why don't we just fake a photograph, publish it, and
go back to Strong fingers, diamonds, and echelon.
I couldn't stay awake for the briefing on this deal!
Message 14
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| Subject: | Chinese training |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
> Frankly, I would like to see the Chinese come over and do a two-week
> training
> session on systems and maintenance of the CJ6A. It should cost about
> $2000 per
> person attending.
We'd love to see that as well. However, until such time that we can get
enough visas and translators to hop the pond, and a bunch of folks
willing to dedicate two full weeks out of their schedules, and dish out
enough cash for a boat load of Tsing Tao, I think Red Star 'O3 is a
reasonable alternative... :)
Barry Hancock
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
California Condors Squadron
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
At my annual, 2 months and 65 hours ago, we replaced the exhaust valve on
the #3 cylinder because it had a nice V burned into it. Recently my CJ-6A
started making that sucking noise that makes you cringe when you pull the
prop through, so we took a peek and found that the #2 cylinder now has a V
growing in the exhaust valve.
Woe is me. :-)
Anybody have any experience with valves turning up burned like this? At
the annual #2 did a 78/80 on the compression check and the valve clearance
seemed just fine tonight.
I hate to think it's something that I'm doing that's causing it. I
usually pull it back to 720mm and 2100 @ 500' on take-off, then climb out
at 720mm and 2100 until I run out of manifold pressure. After that, I
cruise at 1950 but don't let the manifold pressure get above about 680mm
at that RPM setting.
Ideas?
Jon
Message 16
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| Subject: | Why electric trim? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
Hi gang,
I don't know that I want to call it a debate. As far as I'm concerned,
it's your airplane, do what you want...as long as it's safe, of course.
To my knowledge, Rich Tichacek in DVT was the first to put the 3-axis
trim on his airplane. Actually Bill Blackwell did the work. He also
did Hal's. I have talked with Rich and others whom have flown his plane
and they all like the electric trim setup.
I am going to talk with Rich prior to flying my new bird and see what
he has done in terms of "run-away testing." Nonetheless I'm going to
disengage the trim for T.O. and test all the run-away scenarios at
approach speeds through WFO at altitude. The Mac type servos are very
reliable, but I ain't relyin' on nothin' until I know I can still fly
the plane when the system goes Tango Uniform.
Brian had mentioned that Rich, Hal, and I all have the same setup. I
believe that Rich's and Hal's are the same (Hal, feel free to chime in
here), but mine is different. I'm not an aerodynamicist, and never even
played one on television, but those that are mentioned that it would be
better to integrate the trim tab into the control surface as opposed to
is sticking off of the trailing edge...something about changing the CG,
or some other technical voodoo. Nonetheless, because it was
advantageous, aerodynamically speaking, to incorporate the tabs into the
control surfaces, this is what we did. The trim tabs are metal and look
exactly like the ones on the elevator.
Now, from an operational point of view, there are many advantages that
*I* see for *me* when *I'm* operating the airplane. Fixed trim tabs are
good at one speed, normally they are adjusted for cruise. When at
anything but cruise, the plane is out of trim. Formation flying is a
perfect example. Sure, I don't have problems keeping station because of
trim issues, but when trying to chase guys like Brian around I need all
the help I can get! :) Seriously, with the 3x trim I can now trim out
*all* control pressures - at *any* speed - and pick my nose while
keeping station...this is important as I have a serious booger problem
in the summer months. Secondly, I fly a decent amount of XC and holding
rudder in to 10 or 12K is less than enjoyable. I will have O2, heat,
and 77 gal of fuel in the plane, so I will certainly go high to take
advantage of winds on longer flights. Third, in the eventuality of
uneven fuel burn, I can again trim out all control pressures and fly
cross controlled hands off.
I built this CJ with the intention of making it as functional as
possible for my type of flying....form, X/C, aerobatics, ACM, airshows,
and some IFR.
Here, I'll give some of you more to pick at. I've installed a second
landing light on the opposite side and added a pulse light box. Why?
Well, I want to call in to SNA tower "John Wayne Tower, Southwest 4238,
5 miles, airport in sight." All kidding aside, when you fly in the
sludge of the LA basin, it comes in handy to be able to light yourself
up like a Christmas tree so maybe the guy with 20/400 vision who just
lost his glasses in his coffee when he's 1/2 mile on a collision course
can still see you. Go ahead and laugh, but I've had it happen to me
more times than I can count...we'll OK, he probably only had 20/200
vision.
Oh, yeah, I took out the wobble pump and replaced it with an electric
boost pump/primer. The thinking here was my right bicep is already
bigger than my left, and pumping that thing every time the engine driven
pump goes out is just making it worse. Actually, I needed a place to
stow a good book for the long cross countries, and the map box is right
where the wobble pump used to be.
I have a digital IFR clock with audio checklists. I like to hear myself
talk, and at the push of one little button, I can hear myself all day
long and not be hoarse when I'm finished. The other thing of it is,
with all those good books stuffed in the map box where the wobble pump
used to be, I don't have room for emergency checklists...and I'm a slow
reader, not the best trait in an emergency.
And what's that naca scoop for? I know it's in backwards, but it just
looked better that way.
Cheers,
Barry
Barry Hancock
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
California Condors Squadron
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Accident statistics - Single-Seat Checkout |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Harry Hirschman <hairball192@yahoo.com>
Single-Seat Red Star Drivers:
For those needing checkouts for single-seat airplanes
like the Yak-55, I wonder if your insurance companies
would consider time in a Sukhoi 29, Interavia E-3, or
Technoiva SP-95 as comparable. Same engine, same
wing, but two seats. The E-3 and SP-95 are nearly
identical to each other and are basically all-metal
versions of the Sukhoi 29. The E-3/SP-95's have the
notable characteristic of being convertible between
two-seat and single-seat configurations.
I recently took possession of an Interavia E-3 in the
San Francisco Bay area. If there are people nearby
that need some time in a comparable plane before
transitioning to their single-seat airplanes, let me
know. I'm glad to help.
Regards,
Harry
--- cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2003 5:15:52 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> jnygard@cisco.com writes:
>
>
> >
> > As a low time pilot, my insurance company required
> 25 hours dual for me to
> > fly my CJ solo then an additional 15 hours to
> carry a passenger.
> > Joe
> Joe,
> What is your total time and ratings?
>
>
> Jim Goolsby
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> 386-467-3313 voice
> 386-467-3193 fax
> 386-503-9820cell
>
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
> little safety,
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
>
> Benjamin Franklin 1759
> "With my shield, or on it"
>
> Trojan Warriors BC
>
>
>
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