---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/12/03: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:24 AM - Re: CJ speed (Brian Lloyd) 2. 05:54 AM - CJ Gear Speed (cpayne@mc.net) 3. 07:56 AM - Yak / Nanchang Session at National Warbird Operator Conference this month (Tom Johnson) 4. 12:17 PM - YPA & All Red Star (MFilucci@aol.com) 5. 02:58 PM - B & C Alternator...again... (Jeff Linebaugh) 6. 04:34 PM - Re: YPA & All Red Star (Craig Payne) 7. 04:56 PM - Re: YPA & All Red Star (cjpilot710@aol.com) 8. 05:26 PM - YPA & All Red Star (MFilucci@aol.com) 9. 05:39 PM - YPA & All Red Star (MFilucci@aol.com) 10. 06:51 PM - Re: YPA & All Red Star (Drew Blahnick) 11. 08:28 PM - Re: YPA & All Red Star (cjpilot710@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:28 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ speed --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Mark Jefferies wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies" > > CJ6 owners!! > > can someone advise me of the speed difference between gear up and gear down. > IOW when at cruise and the gear is lowered how much speed reduction occurs. > Accurate figures through test would be really appreciated. Gear up____ gear > down____ no power change. It depends on the other configuration of the aiplane and the IAS you start with. I know the speed decrease from drag reduction in landing patter if that will help you. From flying formation I find that a consistent pattern entry helps a lot. I try to enter the overhead at about 150 kts (275 kph) IAS from a very slight dive. I am normally carrying about 25" (635 mm) MAP and 2000 RPM. In the break the 2G level 180 degree turn will bleed off the speed to 130 kts (240 kph), gear speed. The gear comes down as I roll level and I reduce to 20" (500 mm) MAP. Maintaining level flight in this configuration results in a speed reduction to 108 kts (200 kph) which is flap speed. This also happens just about the time you come abeam the touchdown point if you have initiated the pitch out about 1500' down the runway. At that point the flaps come down and I reduce the MAP to 15" (380 mm). As soon as the flaps are down I start my turn to final and maintain 80 kts. I can't give you speed changes with just gear deployment since I combine several factors to get the performance I am seeking. But I do a drag demonstration with the gear and flaps prior to doing simulated emergency landing practice in the pattern. I take the student up and we reduce the power to idle and establish a steady-state descent at 80 kts. We then check the rate-of-descent. Once we have established the rate for a clean airplane I have the student extend the gear. We then reestablish the glide at 80 kts and check RoD again. We repeat the process with the gear up, flaps down, and then again with both gear and flaps down. It very quickly gets the point across that the flaps generate a lot more drag than the gear and that you are unlikely to make your touchdown point if you have the flaps down with the power off. I also teach that once you have put the gear down, leave them down since at 80 kts they don't generate that much more drag and you are far more likely to screw up and leave the gear up if you get busy with an emergency landing and try to save gear deployment for the last moment. Go out and try the drag demo for yourself. Just climb up to a comfortable altitude first to give yourself plenty of time to clean up and fly out. Be sure to use the gill louvers to keep the engine warm. Open the throttle periodically to clear the engine so that you still have good throttle response when you need it. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:49 AM PST US From: cpayne@mc.net Subject: Yak-List: CJ Gear Speed --> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@mc.net Mark, I'm not sure what your question is about but my IAS with gear down and 70% cruise power is about 115-120 KIAS vs about 150 KIAS gear up at the same power setting. I can cruise *much* faster at higher settings but I usually lower my gear at or below 120 KIAS as higher speeds will tear at the gear sealing strips I installed. In fact I favor 100 KIAS but it is difficult to bleed off speed in pattern entry, hence, the overhead break as Brian suggested. Craig Payne --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Mark Jefferies wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies" > > CJ6 owners!! > > can someone advise me of the speed difference between gear up and gear down. > IOW when at cruise and the gear is lowered how much speed reduction occurs. > Accurate figures through test would be really appreciated. Gear up____ gear > down____ no power change. It depends on the other configuration of the aiplane and the IAS you start with. I know the speed decrease from drag reduction in landing patter if that will help you. From flying formation I find that a consistent pattern entry helps a lot. I try to enter the overhead at about 150 kts (275 kph) IAS from a very slight dive. I am normally carrying about 25" (635 mm) MAP and 2000 RPM. In the break the 2G level 180 degree turn will bleed off the speed to 130 kts (240 kph), gear speed. > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:11 AM PST US From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Yak-List: Yak / Nanchang Session at National Warbird Operator Conference this month --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" Dear fellow Yak / CJ pilots, owners and supporters: Cannon Aviation Insurance is a sponsor and Conference Director for the National Warbird Operator Conference here in Phoenix February 27 to March 2, 2003 at the Sheraton Mesa, Arizona. ( http://www.nwoc.homestead.com/ ) This year there will be a breakout session to discuss Yak / Nanchang aircraft issues with those interested. In previous years there has not been good representation for our type at the conference and the conference was not setup to support our type, except under the slightly less flattering "Other" category. This has changed. As a Yak owner under the employ of the Conference Director, I have volunteered to facilitate the first annual breakout session. Unfortunately we won't have a private room this year, so we will have to meet in the lobby of the hotel and make do. But next year we will have a private room of our own and appropriate representation from the group. I realize this announcement is both too little and too late, but after reviewing with Mike Filucci we have agreed that it is worth making an announcement at the conference and to the users by email. We will gauge interest in the conference this year, and have a formal program setup for next year. I'm glad to provide additional details and suggestions for topics. ************************************ Tom Johnson 1983 Yak 52, N524TJ Senior Account Executive Cannon Aviation Insurance Tel: 800-851-2997 Fax: 480-951-1455 Cell: 602-628-2701 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:50 PM PST US From: MFilucci@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com Drew Blahnick and I have fielded a number of questions lately about the relationship between the Yak Pilots Association and All Red Star. The two organizations are on a parallel course with the common goal of supporting the warbird community. The organizations are structured differently, but share key functions-the YPA is a nonprofit, educational organization and signatory to F.A.S.T., whereas All Red Star (Red Stars, Inc.) is a C corporation with a strong brand and marketing capability that focuses on flight- safety training, event production, and web-based communication. Because the two organizations have a common goal and because each has unique capabilities, we are able to collaborate with and support one another to the benefit of all warbird drivers. An example of this collaborative effort is the upcoming All Red Star gathering at Castle. Cannon Aviation Insurance has very generously contributed $1500.00 to YPA-sponsored events this year-$500.00 of this is earmarked for the Castle clinic. The YPA will conduct the F.A.S.T. ground school, provide instructors and Check Pilots, and provide F.A.S.T. certification for those who successfully complete the training. Skip Slyfield will likely contribute his LSO talents to the "carrier landing" event as well. All Red Star will host the event and handle all the logistical support, marketing, and recruitment of additional sponsors-a monumental task. This year, just as with the 2002 event, All Red Star is also spearheading and managing a wide range of training and safety programs that further benefit and expand our community of experimental/exhibition aircraft. The end result will be a more valuable training experience, heavily fortified with fun and camaraderie for all participants, at a very reasonable cost. "Reasonable cost" is the operative phrase here because we've been looking at training programs offered by other organizations and have been surprised by the cost-the Bonanza Society charges approximately $2000.00 for a three-day clinic, and that does not include the participants' logistical costs. Warbird drivers in Europe report that comparable fly-ins there can cost close to $1500.00 (US). One of the keys to our future as warbird operators is going to be in the development of the apparatus to fund programs that continue to benefit our members. The continuing joint effort between the YPA and All Red Star provides the means to develop just such a fund-generating apparatus. This will allow us to expand and develop our programs and still keep costs at an affordable level. A very successful model for this type of symbiotic relationship already exists between the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) and the nonprofit Air Safety Foundation (ASF). The ASF is able to produce and offer a variety of safety programs, including CFI refresher courses-all at a very reasonable cost. As we move forward with our plans to develop additional training and support programs for our members, you will continue to see a collaborative effort between the YPA and All Red Star to deliver the most bang for your buck. Fly safe, fly smart, Mike Filucci and Drew Blahnick ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:40 PM PST US From: "Jeff Linebaugh" Subject: Yak-List: B & C Alternator...again... --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jeff Linebaugh" Well, seems the B & C Alternator that I tried to promote for a friend a couple of weeks ago is available again. It is a 10 AMP B & C Alternator for the M14P. New- in the box. He wants $475 which is well below B&Cs retail price. Contact Gary Austin directly at Retro Aviation. (901) 353-1040. Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:27 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star --> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne Mike, Thanks for clarity on this issue, the relationship is something that I have wondered about and you have now laid out the framework for a good operating relationship. That being said, I might point out a developing opportunity that I have urged our local warbird squadron to address but I haven't been too persuasive so far: numerous communities in my area at least, have a desire for military type flyovers for their public events and have the budget to do so. An example; my own hometown paid $500 per airplane for flyovers, that's $2K for a 4-ship making a couple of passes but none of participants had an appropriate business to provide this. Solution: our local air museum (I'm an officer in) accepted a donation from the pilot's as a 501c3 and issued letters of donation for tax purposes. I believe that the warbird community could effectively market their formation skills and hardware, recoup their direct expenses, have fun, and make money for 501c3 orgs that turn around and host events to meet their mission goals and create more opportunity for fun. No one gets rich but the edge on costs is blunted and everyone has fun. Craig Payne MFilucci@aol.com wrote: > > --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com > > Drew Blahnick and I have fielded a number of questions lately about the > relationship between the Yak Pilots Association and All Red Star. The two > organizations are on a parallel course with the common goal of supporting the > warbird community. The organizations are structured differently, but share > key functions-the YPA is a nonprofit, educational organization and signatory > to F.A.S.T., whereas All Red Star (Red Stars, Inc.) is a C corporation with a > strong brand and marketing capability that focuses on flight- safety > training, event production, and web-based communication. > > Because the two organizations have a common goal and because each has unique > capabilities, we are able to collaborate with and support one another to the > benefit of all warbird drivers. > .... ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:36 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com In a message dated 2/12/2003 7:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, cpayne@mc.net writes: The CAF down here at Datona Beach, has contacts with a number of funeral homes. Lately the WW2 vets are dying off (the nature of things) and the CAF is often contacted to fly a Missing Man formation during a grave side service. About $100.00 per aircraft that is donated right to our unit. If the funeral homes, know that is available, they might be able to provide that service at no cost to them, with the idea, that the vet's family would not mind that cost knowing its a donation. Something to think about, and one way to say goodby to those we owe a lot. > Solution: our > local air museum (I'm an officer in) accepted a donation from the > pilot's as a 501c3 and issued letters of donation for tax purposes. > > I believe that the warbird community could effectively market their > formation skills and hardware, recoup their direct expenses, have fun, > and make money for 501c3 orgs that turn around and host events to meet > their mission goals and create more opportunity for fun. > > No one gets rich but the edge on costs is blunted and everyone has fun. > > Craig Payne > Jim Goolsby cjpilot710@aol.com 386-467-3313 voice 386-467-3193 fax 386-503-9820cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin 1759 "With my shield, or on it" Trojan Warriors BC ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:16 PM PST US From: MFilucci@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com In a message dated 2/12/03 7:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, cpayne@mc.net writes: > I believe that the warbird community could effectively market their > formation skills and hardware, recoup their direct expenses, have fun, > and make money for 501c3 orgs that turn around and host events to meet > their mission goals and create more opportunity for fun. > Craig, You are right. There are many opportunities to showcase our aircraft and those owner/pilots that do so should get paid. As we all know, owning/operating a warbird costs real money. The marketing arm of All Red Star is well suited to promoting the aircraft and the nonprofit YPA provides a channel to "write off" the donation for the paying customer. Mike ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:38 PM PST US From: MFilucci@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com In a message dated 2/12/03 7:57:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, cjpilot710@aol.com writes: > If the funeral homes, know that is available, they might be able to provide > that service at no cost to them, with the idea, that the vet's family would > > not mind that cost knowing its a donation. Something to think about, and > one > way to say goodby to those we owe a lot. > As long as we don't get the reputation of being ambulance chasers! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:04 PM PST US From: "Drew Blahnick" Subject: Re: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star --> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" Folks, Missing man formations are certainly a growing opportunity for our members to serve their community. Our local aero-club here at my Air Force Base has a team of T-34's with constant requests for this vital function. I've been considering how to organize our national community to get the word out. Here's where I would like to start, the set-up for step one will be done tonight, since this is the time to do: Step One: When allredstar.com reopens, if you have, or are about to field, a missing man formation team, please submit, through the sites "Submit Content" form, your units point of contact, a team list and their fast/formation qualifications, and the central airport that defines your area of responsibility (AOR). We can collect this information in a database. The web site has a section called "Squadron Operations", where we are advocating the formation of local squadrons, I will link the Missing Man Team web page there, since if you are flying often enough as a team, you have pretty much formed your squadron by default (Squadron, Group, Hanger, etc.). This step takes minimal effort. If the response is good (several teams from a few regions), we will host an allredstar.com/missing_man_formation stand alone advertising section designed for those who would like to enlist a team for their funeral service, with team point of contact, non-profit donation requirements, members training and qualifications, military service bios, formation photos, etc. Step Two: At some time in the very near future, if we have a few teams registered, we will determine advertising opportunities, by region, to the local and national funeral service industry, churches, as well as government facilities. The most cost effective advertising is you. Even without a team, word of mouth and volunteer phone advertising by concerned members to their local communities, funeral homes and churches, will effectively get the word out. We can put a marketing document for Missing Man Formation Services in PDF for you to download, print and post at your church or give to local funeral homes, it will direct them to the web site where they can choose such services. Last year I advertised Mass Formation and Missing Man Training on Sunday, we omitted the missing man due to time. This year let's stick to our guns, I have the managing editor of Pilot Journal & Airplane Pilot Magazine and several newspapers attending, this is photo I would like representing us; let's hope this damn war is over with minimal casualties, and this year let's make this a priority, low and loud over the Saturday banquet. On another note: When www.allredstar.com opens you will find: 1. Web pages that look like they need content, galleries that need pictures, member rolls that need names: There's a reason for that, the site is member driven, you supply that information right through the web by clicking on "Submit Content", the form will guide you the rest of the way. If you supplied me an article or picture in the past, it's probably posted, if not, resubmit via "Submit Content" after we open, the information is saved on the server, even I can't loose it now ;) 2. Me asking for feedback, especially on 56K download times and bug reports. I've left out most flash, especially for you guys still using Internet Explorer 1.0 (get 4.0 or later, live large), and if you are using Netscape Navigator, god help you, after Microsoft beat them in the markets, they picked up their crayons and left the party, you'll be lucky your computer doesn't blow up. 3. If my USAF unit gets activated within days, Barry Hancock will be actively updating the site, blame him ;) Drew Allen Blahnick All Red Stars Office310-372-6328 Cell310-386-9181 www.allredstar.com "Communism: Lousy Politics - Great Airplanes" ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star > --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com > > In a message dated 2/12/03 7:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, cpayne@mc.net > writes: > > > > I believe that the warbird community could effectively market their > > formation skills and hardware, recoup their direct expenses, have fun, > > and make money for 501c3 orgs that turn around and host events to meet > > their mission goals and create more opportunity for fun. > > > > Craig, > > You are right. There are many opportunities to showcase our aircraft and > those owner/pilots that do so should get paid. As we all know, > owning/operating a warbird costs real money. The marketing arm of All Red > Star is well suited to promoting the aircraft and the nonprofit YPA provides > a channel to "write off" the donation for the paying customer. > > Mike > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:15 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: YPA & All Red Star --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com In a message dated 2/12/2003 9:51:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, aapilot@adelphia.net writes: > > 3. If my USAF unit gets activated within days, Barry Hancock will be > actively updating the site, blame him ;) > > You an't called up yet? Jim Goolsby cjpilot710@aol.com 386-467-3313 voice 386-467-3193 fax 386-503-9820cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin 1759 "With my shield, or on it" Trojan Warriors BC