Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:00 AM - Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft (Fran Myers)
2. 04:25 AM - Re: Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft (Brian Lloyd)
3. 05:51 AM - Re: air show compensation (Mike McCoy)
4. 06:51 AM - Re: Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft (myersf@attbi.com)
5. 08:35 AM - Re: air show compensation (Jon Boede)
6. 11:48 AM - Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition (Rick Basiliere)
7. 12:26 PM - Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition (myersf@attbi.com)
8. 12:35 PM - Re: air show (AirshowPilot1@aol.com)
9. 01:10 PM - Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition (Mike McCoy)
10. 02:14 PM - Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in (Terry Calloway)
11. 04:08 PM - Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition (A. Dennis Savarese)
12. 05:53 PM - Re: air show (Frank Haertlein)
13. 06:01 PM - Re: air show (Frank Haertlein)
14. 06:26 PM - Re: air show (Jon Boede)
15. 06:53 PM - Re: air show (A. Dennis Savarese)
16. 07:07 PM - Re: air show (Frank Haertlein)
17. 07:18 PM - Tyndall AFB airshow. (cjpilot710@aol.com)
18. 07:29 PM - Re: air show (A. Dennis Savarese)
19. 07:31 PM - Re: Tyndall AFB airshow. (A. Dennis Savarese)
20. 07:44 PM - Re: more air show (Craig Payne)
Message 1
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fran Myers" <myersf@attbi.com>
Richard,
I have to agree with the other guy about a commercial operation being
illegal in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft.
I just bought a Scottish Aviation Bulldog and the previous owner's
program letter states that the aircraft can not be used as a commercial
operation. I.E. Carriage of people, flight instruction, and etc.
I called the EAA Warbirds about what I thought was an exemption, but
that happens to be for amateur built aircraft. So if I want to teach
people to fly in my airplane, the EAA interprets the FAA regulation as
"the person who receives the instruction can pay no more than 50% of the
operating expenses". There are also some issues about what determines
total operating expenses.
If you are instructing in a YAK-52 legally, and charging for your time
and the aircraft, I need to know the regulation that allows it because I
would really like to instruct in my airplane.
Fran Myers
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Fran Myers wrote:
> I called the EAA Warbirds about what I thought was an exemption, but
> that happens to be for amateur built aircraft.
Hmm, I thought that it included Experimental/Exhibition aircraft as well, but
only for the purposes of transition training, not general training.
> If you are instructing in a YAK-52 legally, and charging for your time
> and the aircraft, I need to know the regulation that allows it because I
> would really like to instruct in my airplane.
I would like to find out as well. My understanding is the same as Fran's. This
is why I am now thinking about getting something like a Decathalon instead of a
Yak-52 since there are several people who have asked me for flight instruction
and it would serve as a dual-purpose aircraft.
You know, common sense says that there has to be a way for people to get proper
training in experi ... oh stupid me. Never mind.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List:air show compensation |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Richard,
The reference is FAR 91.319. Sorry, I had a typo in my post yesterday and
left a digit out of the FAR reference. This FAR says "No person may operate
an aircraft that has an experimental certificate... carrying persons or
property for compensation or hire." The FAR does not permit giving flight
instruction in your experimental aircraft. As Brian said, EAA is supposed
to have an exemption, but the EAA told me that you can only use your
airplane to give transition training to certified pilots that already have a
complex endorsement and high performance endorsement. Therefore, you can
not use your experimental aircraft for primary instruction or to give
complex and/or high performance endorsements. I asked the EAA to send me
the exemption paperwork, but I didn't receive it. I didn't follow through,
because I decided that I didn't really want to give instruction in my
airplane.
Mike McCoy
> Mike; I have NEVER heard of and FAR that reads as you state. I have
> given dual instruction since 1996 with my Russian a/c (Yak-52, SU-29)
> for compensation with the full knowledge and blessing of the DEN FSDO.
> So if you can site FAR on this I would be very interested i.e that
> Experimental/Exhibition aircraft are precluded from doing anything
> except carrying a person for HIRE. Thanks and Respectfully; Rick
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft |
--> Yak-List message posted by: myersf@attbi.com
How fo I get my name to show up instead of to Yak-list?
Brian,
This doesn't mean I won't do instruction in the Bulldog. I am just trying to
find a way that doens't get me in trouble.
I was under the impression that you taught your son to fly in your CJ? If thats
so then he didn't pay for it, you accomplished flight instruction, so where is
the commercial operation?
Fran
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List:air show compensation |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
I thought that if the FARs didn't say you COULDN'T do something, you could
do it... which is to say, you can charge for the instruction, but not for
the use of the aircraft. That's how most people seem to be doing it.
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Richard,
>
> The reference is FAR 91.319. Sorry, I had a typo in my post yesterday
> and left a digit out of the FAR reference. This FAR says "No person may
> operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate... carrying
> persons or property for compensation or hire." The FAR does not permit
> giving flight instruction in your experimental aircraft. As Brian said,
> EAA is supposed to have an exemption, but the EAA told me that you can
> only use your airplane to give transition training to certified pilots
> that already have a complex endorsement and high performance
> endorsement. Therefore, you can not use your experimental aircraft for
> primary instruction or to give complex and/or high performance
> endorsements. I asked the EAA to send me the exemption paperwork, but I
> didn't receive it. I didn't follow through, because I decided that I
> didn't really want to give instruction in my airplane.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>> Mike; I have NEVER heard of and FAR that reads as you state. I have
>> given dual instruction since 1996 with my Russian a/c (Yak-52, SU-29)
>> for compensation with the full knowledge and blessing of the DEN FSDO.
>> So if you can site FAR on this I would be very interested i.e that
>> Experimental/Exhibition aircraft are precluded from doing anything
>> except carrying a person for HIRE. Thanks and Respectfully; Rick
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
Everyone; I will separate my situation into 2 parts: 1. What I know 2.
What I feel (a Boulder thing).
1. 14 CFR 91.319 (a)(2) Prohibits [any person] from "carrying any persons
or property for compensation or hire". Flight instruction for hire is not
mentioned.
2. Feeling... The fed has no problem in other parts of the CFR Title 14
differentiating between those two actions. Read please 14 CFR 91.409
Inspections. (b)...no person may operate an aircraft carrying any
person(...)for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire ...
So, my feeling is that the Fed can and has made the distinction between
carrying a person for hire and giving flight instruction for hire.
Fact, see 1 above. Flight instruction for hire is not prohibited. Feeling,
pretty black and white.
See also 14 CFR 119.1 which outlines what a Commercial Pilot may do in
deference to part 121, 125, & 135. (e)1 breaks out student instruction and
(e)(3) breaks out ...training flights, however, carrying persons for hire
are covered in (e)(4)iii, (e)(6), so the fed does acknowledge the
difference.
Fact. In 1996 I bought NX52CG (Sukhoi-29 N55SU in Feb 2000)and asked my POI
(FAA boss for a Designated Pilot Examiner) if I may give flight instruction
for hire in my Yak 52. His (Mr. Tom Fortchner's) answer was "sure, why
not?" My DPE renewal checkride with my POI in February 1998 was done in my
Yak-52 and the discussion was how I was doing with the instruction of some
US Air Force cadets in aerobatics prior to their introduction to the T-3.
(The T-3 speeds and figures show it flys like a Decathlon, I needed to pull
power on the -52 to simulate the T-3). If I should get dinged on this point
my defense will be "the FAA knew or should have known" what I have been in
fact doing, and allowed it to continue.
I know the EAA has gotten "whatever" to allow us to do what I feel we
already have the right to do. (Flight instruct for hire...) I also sent for
this paperwork and to fill it out and send in felt scary for all the
restrictions and apparent "lock-ins" to other restrictions then voluntarily
stipulated to. I didn't send it in.
Thank all of you for your insight and input, and thank you for putting up
with me. Rick
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition |
--> Yak-List message posted by: myersf@attbi.com
Rick,
That is a fine, detailed answer.
Thank you for the research, I will continue on my own and hope that I can do
some instruction in my airplane.
The EAA exemption stuff only has to do with amatuer built aircraft.
I think the syllabus stuff has to do with the LOA and LOAA stuff. I'm not sure
that a YAK-52 would need this level of paperwork. I know my Bulldog won't.
Thanks Again,
I will email you privately with some questions.
Fran Myers
MSP
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: AirshowPilot1@aol.com
As a professional air show performer (and attorney licensed in Georgia and Ohio)in
a YAK-55M, it is perfectly fine to charge for the presence of your aircraft
- static or performance based provided you have a commercial license. Your
aircraft limitations should only proscribe passenger, freight carrying, banner
towing etc - there is an "exception" for carrying media in experimental aircraft
but even there, the gas must be paid for out of your own pocket. If you charge
for static display you are in fact engaging in a commercial activity "for
compensation or hire" and this extends to ereceiving a free room. I worked
on this issue several years ago with the air show industry and the FAA, I have
represented several pilots caught in this jam with the FAA. Will you get caught
- maybe - but the real question should be is this a prohibited practice -
not will I get caught at it. If you do not hold a commercial (or ATP) with appropriate
medical (Class II to exercise the privileges of a commercial pilot
- class I for ATP privileges) you in fact run the risk of certificate action by
the FAA if you accept compensation (free gas, hotel room and certainly money)
for displaying your aircraft. Having been inspected by hundreds of different
FAA inspectors at air show sites throughout the U.S. I can also tell you that
there are certain inspectors who walk around the static display area and casually
ask to see your license - if it said private - I have watched them go to
the show producer and find out what the financial arrangements were for the static.
What happened to the pilts I do not know but they were not there the next
year on display . . . .
Walt Addison Linscott
Paramount Aerobatics
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Obviously, you guys can do what you want, but it is not legal to charge for
flight instruction in your experimental exhibition airplane without the
exemption. I personally know of someone that the FAA violated (or attempted
to violate) for doing exactly what you are describing. I know this, because
the FAA called me about the pilot.
I understand your thoughts about this issue and I sympathize, but the FAA
doesn't. You probably won't get caught unless there is an incident or
accident with you or your student. As Brian alluded to earlier, hoping that
you have a rational defense won't help in a certificate action. You either
follow the FAR's or you don't.
Good Luck.
Mike McCoy
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in |
Experimental/Exhibition
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway@datatechnique.com>
Mike,
If this were true, the student could have the training credit(s) or license voided
if audited. Similar to finding out the training had been signed off by an
unqualified CFI. Right?
tc
>>> mike@aircraftsales.com 2/27/2003 3:10:06 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Obviously, you guys can do what you want, but it is not legal to charge for
flight instruction in your experimental exhibition airplane without the
exemption. I personally know of someone that the FAA violated (or attempted
to violate) for doing exactly what you are describing. I know this, because
the FAA called me about the pilot.
I understand your thoughts about this issue and I sympathize, but the FAA
doesn't. You probably won't get caught unless there is an incident or
accident with you or your student. As Brian alluded to earlier, hoping that
you have a rational defense won't help in a certificate action. You either
follow the FAR's or you don't.
Good Luck.
Mike McCoy
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction for Hire in Experimental/Exhibition |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
If we read Walt Linscott's (aviation attorney; YAK 55 owner; level one
airshow pilot) recent post/contribution on the subject and value his
expertise, we will find that Mike is also correct.
Dennis Savarese
From: "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway@datatechnique.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flight Instruction for Hire in
Experimental/Exhibition
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Terry Calloway"
<TCalloway@datatechnique.com>
>
> Mike,
> If this were true, the student could have the training credit(s) or
license voided if audited. Similar to finding out the training had been
signed off by an unqualified CFI. Right?
> tc
>
> >>> mike@aircraftsales.com 2/27/2003 3:10:06 PM >>>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Obviously, you guys can do what you want, but it is not legal to charge
for
> flight instruction in your experimental exhibition airplane without the
> exemption. I personally know of someone that the FAA violated (or
attempted
> to violate) for doing exactly what you are describing. I know this,
because
> the FAA called me about the pilot.
>
> I understand your thoughts about this issue and I sympathize, but the FAA
> doesn't. You probably won't get caught unless there is an incident or
> accident with you or your student. As Brian alluded to earlier, hoping
that
> you have a rational defense won't help in a certificate action. You
either
> follow the FAR's or you don't.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | E: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
I'd like to challenge you on that Frank................
OK Dennis, that's a good thing! Let me state my position more clearly.
The FAA is into governing the safety of flight. That's why we cannot
engage in commercial FLYING activities with experimental aircraft. The
FAA is charged with ensuring the public safety when it comes to FLYING
and thus the existence of most of their rules. If my aircraft is parked
in a STATIC DISPLAY area and the plane is clearly, currently a STATIC
DISPLAY model then the SAFETY of FLIGHT aspect of their charter is no
longer in effect. Look at it this way......If I got a flyable F-104
mounted on a pole as a static display model then just what jurisdiction
does the FAA have over that? The answer is NONE. It's the same with any
other non-flying static display model. It's really pretty simple if you
read the regs and compare it to what you are doing. It's all in the
definition.
Frank
N911OM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List:air show
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Yakkers.......
> As regards air shows and compensation:
>
> I think that flying for money or compensation is a commercial
> activity. But then NOTHING has been said about static displays.
> Personally, I'm going to charge what the market will bear when I do a
> static display of my plane. The flying part I'll do for free because
> to charge for it would be a commercial related FLYING activity. The
> FAA has little jurisdiction over static display aircraft at air shows.
> It is not illegal charge the air show operators or get your free gas
> for the static display of your airplane!
>
> Frank
> N911OM
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | E: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Eyeballs, Brian
Look........I don't charge for flying to the air show, I don't charge
for the aerobatic sequences or formation flying I do. If it relates in
any way to actual flying I don't charge for it. Do you thus agree that I
am not engaged in a commercial "flying" activity?
So then, what is wrong with charging for a "STATIC DISPLAY" model?
Answer.......NOTHING
Frank
N911OM
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | E: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
Frank... what you say makes perfect sense; unfortunately, *that* has
nothing to do with it. :-)
Unless you trailered your aircraft to the show on a flatbed truck, you're
going to find that the FAA considers your taking gas, money, a hotel room,
or "pilots only" hotdogs to be "compensation" for FLYING there and if you
just have a private ticket, or don't have a current Class II medical --
you could very easily find yourself on the receiving end of an enforcement
action by the FAA. And, statistically, they win 98% of those.
Have fun rolling the dice... but, uh, _you asked_ and, uhhhh, "we told you
so". :-)
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Eyeballs, Brian
>
> Look........I don't charge for flying to the air show, I don't charge
> for the aerobatic sequences or formation flying I do. If it relates in
> any way to actual flying I don't charge for it. Do you thus agree that I
> am not engaged in a commercial "flying" activity?
>
> So then, what is wrong with charging for a "STATIC DISPLAY" model?
>
> Answer.......NOTHING
>
> Frank
> N911OM
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
As I said in an earlier email today Frank, we should all read Walt
Linscott's (aviation attorney, YAK 55 owner, airshow performer) on the
subject matter which was posted to the Yak list earlier today. I believe I
said I was going to ask an aviation attorney friend of mine what his
position was on the point at hand. Read Walt's post and then make your own
decisions. Just remember, the FAA ramp guys at the airshows etc. who pull
these inspections/checks do not deal in logical reasoning.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List:air show
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> I'd like to challenge you on that Frank................
>
> OK Dennis, that's a good thing! Let me state my position more clearly.
> The FAA is into governing the safety of flight. That's why we cannot
> engage in commercial FLYING activities with experimental aircraft. The
> FAA is charged with ensuring the public safety when it comes to FLYING
> and thus the existence of most of their rules. If my aircraft is parked
> in a STATIC DISPLAY area and the plane is clearly, currently a STATIC
> DISPLAY model then the SAFETY of FLIGHT aspect of their charter is no
> longer in effect. Look at it this way......If I got a flyable F-104
> mounted on a pole as a static display model then just what jurisdiction
> does the FAA have over that? The answer is NONE. It's the same with any
> other non-flying static display model. It's really pretty simple if you
> read the regs and compare it to what you are doing. It's all in the
> definition.
>
> Frank
> N911OM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List:air show
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Yakkers.......
> > As regards air shows and compensation:
> >
> > I think that flying for money or compensation is a commercial
> > activity. But then NOTHING has been said about static displays.
> > Personally, I'm going to charge what the market will bear when I do a
> > static display of my plane. The flying part I'll do for free because
> > to charge for it would be a commercial related FLYING activity. The
> > FAA has little jurisdiction over static display aircraft at air shows.
>
> > It is not illegal charge the air show operators or get your free gas
> > for the static display of your airplane!
> >
> > Frank
> > N911OM
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | E: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Jon;
Interesting reply. My answer to that is to ask if the FAA allows you to
attend air shows with your "EXPERIMENTAL EXHIBITION" as a private pilot?
Why of course the answer is YES. The FAA allows me to use my
"EXPERIMENTAL" for "EXHIBITION"! Just look at my operating limitations
as issued by the FAA and the program letter I must submit each year. It
is obvious that I have the permission of the FAA to attend the listed
air shows or fly-ins. You may, indeed, attend with your experimental
aircraft and use it for "EXHIBITION"......that is clear enough. BUT, I
am clearly prohibited from engaging in "FLYING" activities that are
commercial. What you do once you LAND your aircraft is up to you. Hell,
I could hire a wreaking ball to have my plane crushed as part of the air
show and charge people to see the "EXHIBITION"........if I want. It's
totally up to me. What is the FAA going to do if I use a wreaking ball
to crush my airplane during the air show? Does it affect the SAFETY OF
FLIGHT" for commercial purposes? Does it endanger any persons engaged in
flying for compensation or hire? I hardly think so. With a static
display model, once on the ground, I can do anything I want with it!
It's all in how you look at it.
Frank
N911OM
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Subject: RE: Yak-List:air show
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
Frank... what you say makes perfect sense; unfortunately, *that* has
nothing to do with it. :-)
Unless you trailered your aircraft to the show on a flatbed truck,
you're going to find that the FAA considers your taking gas, money, a
hotel room, or "pilots only" hotdogs to be "compensation" for FLYING
there and if you just have a private ticket, or don't have a current
Class II medical -- you could very easily find yourself on the receiving
end of an enforcement action by the FAA. And, statistically, they win
98% of those.
Have fun rolling the dice... but, uh, _you asked_ and, uhhhh, "we told
you so". :-)
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Eyeballs, Brian
>
> Look........I don't charge for flying to the air show, I don't charge
> for the aerobatic sequences or formation flying I do. If it relates in
> any way to actual flying I don't charge for it. Do you thus agree that
> I am not engaged in a commercial "flying" activity?
>
> So then, what is wrong with charging for a "STATIC DISPLAY" model?
>
> Answer.......NOTHING
>
> Frank
> N911OM
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Tyndall AFB airshow. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Florida fliers,
Please note the USAF people have limited the number and type of aircraft to
attend the show on March 21,22,23.
However u's guys can't go. Me, however? Well, if war brakes out between now
and than, the show WILL be canceled, and I won't go either.
I am not an anti-war protester.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Tell you what Frank. Call your local FSDO and set up a meeting (don't
discuss it over the phone) with one of the inspectors who typically is
assigned to airshows in their jurisdiction. At the meeting present him with
your scenarios and document his responses. Once you get the facts from the
"horses mouth", please post the gospel according to your local FSDO for us.
Remember it's not our interpretation that counts. It's theirs. IMHO you'll
be opening up a can of worms for yourself. But we all really need to know.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List:air show
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Jon;
> Interesting reply. My answer to that is to ask if the FAA allows you to
> attend air shows with your "EXPERIMENTAL EXHIBITION" as a private pilot?
> Why of course the answer is YES. The FAA allows me to use my
> "EXPERIMENTAL" for "EXHIBITION"! Just look at my operating limitations
> as issued by the FAA and the program letter I must submit each year. It
> is obvious that I have the permission of the FAA to attend the listed
> air shows or fly-ins. You may, indeed, attend with your experimental
> aircraft and use it for "EXHIBITION"......that is clear enough. BUT, I
> am clearly prohibited from engaging in "FLYING" activities that are
> commercial. What you do once you LAND your aircraft is up to you. Hell,
> I could hire a wreaking ball to have my plane crushed as part of the air
> show and charge people to see the "EXHIBITION"........if I want. It's
> totally up to me. What is the FAA going to do if I use a wreaking ball
> to crush my airplane during the air show? Does it affect the SAFETY OF
> FLIGHT" for commercial purposes? Does it endanger any persons engaged in
> flying for compensation or hire? I hardly think so. With a static
> display model, once on the ground, I can do anything I want with it!
> It's all in how you look at it.
>
> Frank
> N911OM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List:air show
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
>
> Frank... what you say makes perfect sense; unfortunately, *that* has
> nothing to do with it. :-)
>
> Unless you trailered your aircraft to the show on a flatbed truck,
> you're going to find that the FAA considers your taking gas, money, a
> hotel room, or "pilots only" hotdogs to be "compensation" for FLYING
> there and if you just have a private ticket, or don't have a current
> Class II medical -- you could very easily find yourself on the receiving
> end of an enforcement action by the FAA. And, statistically, they win
> 98% of those.
>
> Have fun rolling the dice... but, uh, _you asked_ and, uhhhh, "we told
> you so". :-)
>
> Jon
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> > <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> >
> >
> > Eyeballs, Brian
> >
> > Look........I don't charge for flying to the air show, I don't charge
> > for the aerobatic sequences or formation flying I do. If it relates in
>
> > any way to actual flying I don't charge for it. Do you thus agree that
>
> > I am not engaged in a commercial "flying" activity?
> >
> > So then, what is wrong with charging for a "STATIC DISPLAY" model?
> >
> > Answer.......NOTHING
> >
> > Frank
> > N911OM
>
>
> direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Tyndall AFB airshow. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Pappy,
Do you have a contact name and telephone number at Tyndall? I may be able
to make it this year.
Thanks
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: <cjpilot710@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Tyndall AFB airshow.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> Florida fliers,
>
> Please note the USAF people have limited the number and type of aircraft
to
> attend the show on March 21,22,23.
> However u's guys can't go. Me, however? Well, if war brakes out between
now
> and than, the show WILL be canceled, and I won't go either.
>
> I am not an anti-war protester.
>
> Jim
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> Benjamin Franklin 1759
> "With my shield, or on it"
> Trojan Warriors BC
>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: more air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
Hmmm, interesting logic but when dealing with the FAA I'm admonished by
paraphasing words from a song by Jim Croce: "you don't tug on Superman's
cape, you don't spit into the wind, and you don't mess around with the
FAA"
Craig Payne
>Frank Haertlein wrote:
> What you do once you LAND your aircraft is up to you. Hell,
> I could hire a wreaking ball to have my plane crushed as part of the air
> show and charge people to see the "EXHIBITION"........if I want. It's
> totally up to me. What is the FAA going to do if I use a wreaking ball
> to crush my airplane during the air show? Does it affect the SAFETY OF
> FLIGHT" for commercial purposes? Does it endanger any persons engaged in
> flying for compensation or hire? I hardly think so. With a static
> display model, once on the ground, I can do anything I want with it!
> It's all in how you look at it.
>
> Frank
> N911OM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List:air show
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
>
> Frank... what you say makes perfect sense; unfortunately, *that* has
> nothing to do with it. :-)
>
> Unless you trailered your aircraft to the show on a flatbed truck,
> you're going to find that the FAA considers your taking gas, money, a
> hotel room, or "pilots only" hotdogs to be "compensation" for FLYING
> there and if you just have a private ticket, or don't have a current
> Class II medical -- you could very easily find yourself on the receiving
> end of an enforcement action by the FAA. And, statistically, they win
> 98% of those.
>
> Have fun rolling the dice... but, uh, _you asked_ and, uhhhh, "we told
> you so". :-)
>
> Jon
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> > <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> >
> >
> > Eyeballs, Brian
> >
> > Look........I don't charge for flying to the air show, I don't charge
> > for the aerobatic sequences or formation flying I do. If it relates in
>
> > any way to actual flying I don't charge for it. Do you thus agree that
>
> > I am not engaged in a commercial "flying" activity?
> >
> > So then, what is wrong with charging for a "STATIC DISPLAY" model?
> >
> > Answer.......NOTHING
> >
> > Frank
> > N911OM
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|