Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:03 AM - YAK 18T is certifed (Mark Jefferies.)
2. 04:08 AM - Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners (Brian Lloyd)
3. 04:26 AM - Re: YAK 18T is certifed (Brian Lloyd)
4. 04:29 AM - Re: Prop Strike (Mike McCoy)
5. 05:00 AM - Re: Prop Strike (Kevin Pilling)
6. 05:03 AM - Re: Prop Strike (Ernie)
7. 05:13 AM - Re: Prop Strike (Ernie)
8. 05:43 AM - Re: Prop Strike (Brian Lloyd)
9. 05:43 AM - Re: Prop Strike (Gus Fraser)
10. 05:45 AM - Re: Prop Strike (Brian Lloyd)
11. 07:26 AM - Fw: special young eagle flights. (cjpilot710@aol.com)
12. 07:56 AM - Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners (scott.huff@aivia.aero)
13. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners (Brian Lloyd)
14. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners (A. Dennis Savarese)
15. 11:19 AM - Re: Prop Strike (N13472@aol.com)
16. 11:53 AM - Fw: FW: special young eagle flights. (cjpilot710@aol.com)
17. 12:20 PM - The Dick (N13472@aol.com)
18. 12:44 PM - Re: Prop Strike (Brian Lloyd)
19. 03:27 PM - Re: Prop Strike (Frank Haertlein)
20. 03:54 PM - Re: Fw: FW: special young eagle flights. (Gus Fraser)
21. 03:58 PM - Re: Prop Strike (Gus Fraser)
22. 04:26 PM - Re: Prop Strike (Jon Boede)
23. 04:44 PM - left elevator (jay reiter)
24. 06:48 PM - RESULTS: Unofficial Formation Flying Poll (Harry Hirschman)
25. 07:27 PM - Elevator (jay reiter)
26. 07:31 PM - bent props and other things (cjpilot710@aol.com)
27. 07:58 PM - 48 hours (cjpilot710@aol.com)
28. 08:10 PM - Re: 48 hours (Barry Hancock)
29. 08:13 PM - Re: bent props and other things (dabear)
Message 1
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| Subject: | YAK 18T is certifed |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies." <mark@yakuk.com>
Readers, the YAK 18T does hold a full normal certificate of airworthiness in the
OEM country and Hungary. Take a full C of A its better, why try and get the
a/c experimental?
A possible reason why so few in the USA is that they require a high open top container
to ship.However we have the answer, fly it across from the UK. We can
give you 10 hrs of fuel, it has a larger oil tank also, that's enough to do Iceland,
green land etc. Summer is coming :)))
And BTW the AN2 is also certified in the OEM and other countries in Europe, why
use the experimental reg when for a little extra work you have an a/c that is
able to operate on an AOC? Even the UK CAA accept the a/c has a full normal certificate!!!
Best regards, fly safe & enjoy-Mark Jefferies
For YAK UK Ltd www.yakuk.com
Lt Gransden Airfield
Sandy, Beds
SG19 3BP
England.
Tel +44 (0)1767 651156.
Fax +44 (0)1767 651157
Mobile +44 (0)7785 538 317
Conditions and terms of business
Aircraft for sale
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> Excellent advice Gus. You are right on the money. AN2's are Experimental,
> Exhibition, Group IV, Other. They are even mentioned in the FAA Order
> description for Group IV. A BIG problem!
You guys are so busy trying to second guess the FAA that you tend to ignore the
obvious. Look for similar airplanes. Let's see ... aerobatic with two seats,
carries passengers with four. This sounds like both the Marchetti SF-260 and
the IAR-823. Both of these aircraft are Experimental/Exhibition, group 3.
Everything the Soviets had was military. It just isn't that hard.
So don't even ask the FAA what they think. Go in and just assume it will be
Experimental/Exhibition, group 3 and let it go at that. They know even less
than you do and will follow your lead.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: YAK 18T is certifed |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Mark Jefferies. wrote:
> A possible reason why so few in the USA is that they require a high open top
> container to ship.However we have the answer, fly it across from the UK. We
> can give you 10 hrs of fuel, it has a larger oil tank also, that's enough to
> do Iceland, green land etc. Summer is coming :)))
If you get any takers, I will be happy to fly it over for them. I need a break.
> And BTW the AN2 is also certified in the OEM and other countries in Europe,
> why use the experimental reg when for a little extra work you have an a/c
> that is able to operate on an AOC? Even the UK CAA accept the a/c has a full
> normal certificate!!!
If you get it registered and certified there, not here. It cannot be registered
with a normal AC here in the US. GAMA saw to that.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Gus,
I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will NEVER
have a gear up landing. This is just total non-sense. However, a person
who gets all their training and advice from an internet mail list is highly
likely to have an accident (as I have said many times before). Also, a
person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents (running into
their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill themselves (and
sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
Mike McCoy
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> In the years I have been flying I have learned that the sayings in this
game
> are taught by bitter experience. Therefore I remind everyone of the
saying:
>
> "There are two kinds of pilot. Those that have landed gear up, and those
> that have yet to do so."
>
> Sorry to hear about it Ernie.
>
> Gus
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Kevin Pilling" <kjpilling@btclick.com>
Mike you should be a negotiator by profession. Your unwavering tact and
wholly bigoted appraisals are an evolving legend.
fly safe
kp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Gus,
>
> I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will
NEVER
> have a gear up landing. This is just total non-sense. However, a person
> who gets all their training and advice from an internet mail list is
highly
> likely to have an accident (as I have said many times before). Also, a
> person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents (running into
> their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill themselves
(and
> sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
> >
> > In the years I have been flying I have learned that the sayings in this
> game
> > are taught by bitter experience. Therefore I remind everyone of the
> saying:
> >
> > "There are two kinds of pilot. Those that have landed gear up, and those
> > that have yet to do so."
> >
> > Sorry to hear about it Ernie.
> >
> > Gus
>
>
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Mike all I have to say is you're a DICK!
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Gus,
>
> I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will
NEVER
> have a gear up landing. This is just total non-sense. However, a person
> who gets all their training and advice from an internet mail list is
highly
> likely to have an accident (as I have said many times before). Also, a
> person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents (running into
> their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill themselves
(and
> sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
> >
> > In the years I have been flying I have learned that the sayings in this
> game
> > are taught by bitter experience. Therefore I remind everyone of the
> saying:
> >
> > "There are two kinds of pilot. Those that have landed gear up, and those
> > that have yet to do so."
> >
> > Sorry to hear about it Ernie.
> >
> > Gus
>
>
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Let me re-phrase this.
You're a complete, pompous, overbearing, egotistic, self serving,
conceded, DICK! You must be so miserable that your only souce of enjoyment
is at other peoples expense. You are the poster child for soneone who is
trying to compensate for other shortcomings by acting as if you're gods gift
to flight, while you hide behind your meserable little keyboard waitng in
the dark for an opportunity to be even more vulgar a person than you have
already exhibited on this list.
Everyone has a bad day, and I cant wait for yours, but then you'll never be
man enough to admit to a mistake will you.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Gus,
>
> I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will
NEVER
> have a gear up landing. This is just total non-sense. However, a person
> who gets all their training and advice from an internet mail list is
highly
> likely to have an accident (as I have said many times before). Also, a
> person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents (running into
> their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill themselves
(and
> sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
> >
> > In the years I have been flying I have learned that the sayings in this
> game
> > are taught by bitter experience. Therefore I remind everyone of the
> saying:
> >
> > "There are two kinds of pilot. Those that have landed gear up, and those
> > that have yet to do so."
> >
> > Sorry to hear about it Ernie.
> >
> > Gus
>
>
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Mike McCoy wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Gus,
>
> I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will NEVER
> have a gear up landing.
And some will. We are dealing with the human mind and all we can do is to
instill good habit patterns through repetition that will hopefully still take
hold when a brain-fart occurs. Good pilots with good skills, good training, and
recent currency still run into situations that result in accidents and
incidents. It is a fact of life. We just try to stay far enough from the edge
of the envelope so we have some cushion for the momentary lapse of procedure.
I know one supremely qualified, trained, and disciplined pilot who had a gear-up
incident once in his life. He was waived off repeatedly due to a reoccuringly
fouled runway and ultimately got into a low-fuel situation which resulted in an
abbreviated pattern. The repeated violation of normal procedures with a
not-quite-emergency thrown in broke the chain of procedure and training and
resulted in a gear-up landing. Yup, he f----d up but he had a lot of help rom
the situation getting there.
Yes Mike, shit happens to even the best since no one is perfect. Yes, we should
all work toward perfection but we should also accept that there are conditions
that can break even the best chain of training and habit. We all hope that we
will have a stroke of good luck when that happens. And everyone else I know
hopes that the other guy will also have a stroke of good luck when he/she needs
it most.
> This is just total non-sense. However, a person who gets all their training
> and advice from an internet mail list is highly likely to have an accident
> (as I have said many times before).
Here is a question for you. How much of what you learned came from hangar
flying in the squadron ready room? How much came from discussions in the O'Club
over a beer after a day of flying? Now explain to me the difference between
hangar flying in the squadron ready room and hangar flying on this list. I
suspect there were a few new pilots fresh from the training command in your
squadron. Did you give them shit for listening to the other pilots talk? Did
you give them shit for asking questions? Did any of the other, more experienced
pilots ever make a mistake and have to be corrected? I know you would never
make a mistake but others might.
And, oh-my-gosh, what did you do when it was the CO that uttered incorrect
information? I suspect you didn't say, "You are wrong and you are an idiot and
you are going to kill yourself." I suspect you said something like, "Pardon me
sir but I remember that differently. I think we ought to check this section of
the manual over here just to be sure." Sometimes it is all in how you say it.
> Also, a person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents (running
> into their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill themselves
> (and sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
So instead of castigating, perhaps you could help?
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
In general I agree with you but I am sure that if you asked every pilot who
has had a gear up if they thought it would ever happen to them I am sure
that they will say no way. The point of the statement is as a reminder that
it does not take much to stray from the straight and narrow. I get my
information from many places:-
Fortune cookies.
Throwing runes and goat entrails.
Idle gossip.
Banking Research analysts.
Even the internet.
And yes I do have a warped sense of reality.
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike McCoy
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Gus,
I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will NEVER
have a gear up landing. This is just total non-sense. However, a person
who gets all their training and advice from an internet mail list is highly
likely to have an accident (as I have said many times before). Also, a
person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents (running into
their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill themselves (and
sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
Mike McCoy
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> In the years I have been flying I have learned that the sayings in this
game
> are taught by bitter experience. Therefore I remind everyone of the
saying:
>
> "There are two kinds of pilot. Those that have landed gear up, and those
> that have yet to do so."
>
> Sorry to hear about it Ernie.
>
> Gus
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Ernie wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> Let me re-phrase this.
>
> You're a complete, pompous, overbearing, egotistic, self serving,
> conceded, DICK! You must be so miserable that your only souce of enjoyment
> is at other peoples expense.
Ernie, I think you are holding back here. Perhaps you would like to say how you
*really* feel. It's OK. You are among friends.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fwd: special young eagle flights. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Subject: RE: special young eagle flights.
From: "warbirds" <warbirds@eaa.org>
Jim,
Those reports are alarming and disappointing. I will discuss this matter with
our EAA Young Eagles Coordinator and see what can be done. Thank you for sharing
this information.
Sincerely,
Bill Fischer, Executive Director
EAA Warbirds of America
-----Original Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com [mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
Subject: special young eagle flights.
EAAWB
We have been hearing news reports of late, that school children of service personal,
have been mocked by their "educators" and other children. This being some
absurd attempt at antiwar sentiment.
A number of our members have suggested that EAAWB sponsor some type of action to
give special recognition and appreciation to the children of service personal.
It was recommended that special Young Eagle flights be offered to the different
military service dependent programs.
Would that be possible?
Jim Goosby
Jim Goolsby, YPA Board Member
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
<META content"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" nameGENERATOR>
Jim,
Those
reports are alarming and disappointing. I will discuss this matter with
our EAA Young Eagles Coordinator and see what can be done. Thank you for
sharing this information.
Sincerely,
Bill
Fischer, Executive Director
EAA
Warbirds of America
-----Original Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
[mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
PM
Cc:
yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: special young eagle
flights.
EAAWB
We have been hearing news reports
of late, that school children of service personal, have been mocked by their
"educators" and other children. This being some absurd attempt at
antiwar sentiment.
A number of our members have suggested that
EAAWB sponsor some type of action to give special recognition and appreciation
to the children of service personal. It was recommended that special
Young Eagle flights be offered to the different military service dependent
programs.
Would that be possible?
Jim
Goosby
Jim Goolsby, YPA
Board Member
"They that
can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither
liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on
it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners |
--> Yak-List message posted by: scott.huff@aivia.aero
Excellent advice from everyone regarding airworthiness certification of the
18T. Thank you very much for the feedback!
I performed a search of the FAA database and discovered the following:
1. There are six Yak 18Ts currently registered with the FAA in the US.
2. Of the six, four were issued Experimental/Exhibition airworthiness
certificates.
3. The other two didn't list any airworthiness certification, so I'm assuming
they have just been imported and/or under restoration, pending an airworthiness
inspection.
4. The 18T that was for sale in Virginia Beach did not show up in the list of
six. I'm assuming the Bill of Sale issues have not been resolved as of yet.
So, based on this information alone, I am assuming that the FAA considers the
18T in Group 3 of the Experimental/Exhibition category. Correct assumption?
Should I contact my local FSDO and pose the hypothetical question, or do you
think this might cause problems down the road?
Respectfully,
Scott Huff
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
scott.huff@aivia.aero wrote:
> Should I contact my local FSDO and pose the hypothetical question, or do you
> think this might cause problems down the road?
If the aircraft does not have an AC yet, try to deal with the nearest MIDO to
get the inital one issued. It makes it much easier for your FSDO because the
thinking part has already been done for them and they don't have to make a value
judgement as to which category.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Scott,
I'd present them with a copy of another 18T's operating limitations. Plus
if you're 9 months to a year away, the same airworthiness inspector may not
be there when it comes time for you to certify you airplane.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: <scott.huff@aivia.aero>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners
> --> Yak-List message posted by: scott.huff@aivia.aero
>
> Excellent advice from everyone regarding airworthiness certification of
the
> 18T. Thank you very much for the feedback!
>
> I performed a search of the FAA database and discovered the following:
>
> 1. There are six Yak 18Ts currently registered with the FAA in the US.
>
> 2. Of the six, four were issued Experimental/Exhibition airworthiness
> certificates.
>
> 3. The other two didn't list any airworthiness certification, so I'm
assuming
> they have just been imported and/or under restoration, pending an
airworthiness
> inspection.
>
> 4. The 18T that was for sale in Virginia Beach did not show up in the list
of
> six. I'm assuming the Bill of Sale issues have not been resolved as of
yet.
>
> So, based on this information alone, I am assuming that the FAA considers
the
> 18T in Group 3 of the Experimental/Exhibition category. Correct
assumption?
>
> Should I contact my local FSDO and pose the hypothetical question, or do
you
> think this might cause problems down the road?
>
> Respectfully,
> Scott Huff
>
>
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: N13472@aol.com
VERY WELL SAID !!!!!!!!!!!!
Message 16
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| Subject: | Fwd: FW: special young eagle flights. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Subject: FW: special young eagle flights.
Hi Jim,
We received a similar suggestion recently from another member. I agree it is an
excellent idea and should be considered by all Warbird Squadrons and EAA Chapters.
The families of those shipped overseas are having a tough time. Although
I have not personally heard or read about children being "mocked" this does
represent a population of kids who could use a little TLC right about now.
I would suggest you encourage your local squadron and fellow Warbird and EAA members
to participate. We will be doing the same though various communication
methods we have with the Chapters and our Coordinators.
Thanks for the great suggestion,
Steve Buss
EAA Young Eagles Program
-----Original Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com [mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
Subject: special young eagle flights.
EAAWB
We have been hearing news reports of late, that school children of service personal,
have been mocked by their "educators" and other children. This being some
absurd attempt at antiwar sentiment.
A number of our members have suggested that EAAWB sponsor some type of action to
give special recognition and appreciation to the children of service personal.
It was recommended that special Young Eagle flights be offered to the different
military service dependent programs.
Would that be possible?
Jim Goosby
Jim Goolsby, YPA Board Member
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
<META content"MSHTML 6.00.2719.2200" nameGENERATOR>
Hi Jim,
We
received a similar suggestion recently from another member. I agree it is
an excellent idea and should be considered by all Warbird Squadrons and EAA
Chapters. The families of those shipped overseas are having a tough
time. Although I have not personally heard or read about children being
"mocked" this does represent a population of kids who could use a little TLC
right about now.
I
would suggest you encourage your local squadron and fellow Warbird and EAA
members to participate. We will be doing the same though various
communication methods we have with the Chapters and our
Coordinators.
Thanks for the great
suggestion,
Steve
Buss
EAA
Young Eagles Program
-----Original
Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
[mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
PM
Cc:
yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: special young eagle
flights.
EAAWB
We have been hearing news
reports of late, that school children of service personal, have been mocked=20by
their "educators" and other children. This being some absurd attempt at
antiwar sentiment.
A number of our members have suggested that
EAAWB sponsor some type of action to give special recognition and appreciation
to the children of service personal. It was recommended that special Young
Eagle flights be offered to the different military service dependent
programs.
Would that be possible?
Jim
Goosby
Jim Goolsby, YPA Board
Member
"They that can give up
essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on
it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 17
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--> Yak-List message posted by: N13472@aol.com
VERY WELL SAID !!!! Ernie. I believe that your comments reflect the
opinion's of most of the members of this list.
Subj: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
From: ernest.martinez@oracle.com (Ernie)
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Let me re-phrase this.
You're a complete, pompous, overbearing, egotistic, self serving,
conceded, DICK! You must be so miserable that your only souce of enjoyment
is at other peoples expense. You are the poster child for soneone who is
trying to compensate for other shortcomings by acting as if you're gods gift
to flight, while you hide behind your meserable little keyboard waitng in
the dark for an opportunity to be even more vulgar a person than you have
already exhibited on this list.
Everyone has a bad day, and I cant wait for yours, but then you'll never be
man enough to admit to a mistake will you.
Ernie
Message 18
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
N13472@aol.com wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: N13472@aol.com
>
> VERY WELL SAID !!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you. (I think.)
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 19
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Brian;
I think you are basically right. A list like this can be valuable
because it's seen by so many eyes in a number of different
countries.....more eyes than you would expect in a typical hanger talk
BS session. That makes this list MORE valuable. When someone's advice
was a little off, I've seen other people call them on it and that only
adds to the learning experience........old wives tales, so to speak,
won't last long around here.
My 2 for what it's worth.
Frank
N911OM
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Mike McCoy wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Gus,
>
> I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will
> NEVER
> have a gear up landing.
And some will. We are dealing with the human mind and all we can do is
to instill good habit patterns through repetition that will hopefully
still take hold when a brain-fart occurs. Good pilots with good skills,
good training, and recent currency still run into situations that result
in accidents and incidents. It is a fact of life. We just try to stay
far enough from the edge of the envelope so we have some cushion for the
momentary lapse of procedure.
I know one supremely qualified, trained, and disciplined pilot who had a
gear-up incident once in his life. He was waived off repeatedly due to
a reoccuringly fouled runway and ultimately got into a low-fuel
situation which resulted in an abbreviated pattern. The repeated
violation of normal procedures with a not-quite-emergency thrown in
broke the chain of procedure and training and resulted in a gear-up
landing. Yup, he f----d up but he had a lot of help rom the situation
getting there.
Yes Mike, shit happens to even the best since no one is perfect. Yes,
we should all work toward perfection but we should also accept that
there are conditions that can break even the best chain of training and
habit. We all hope that we will have a stroke of good luck when that
happens. And everyone else I know hopes that the other guy will also
have a stroke of good luck when he/she needs it most.
> This is just total non-sense. However, a person who gets all their
> training
> and advice from an internet mail list is highly likely to have an
accident
> (as I have said many times before).
Here is a question for you. How much of what you learned came from
hangar flying in the squadron ready room? How much came from
discussions in the O'Club over a beer after a day of flying? Now
explain to me the difference between hangar flying in the squadron ready
room and hangar flying on this list. I suspect there were a few new
pilots fresh from the training command in your squadron. Did you give
them shit for listening to the other pilots talk? Did you give them
shit for asking questions? Did any of the other, more experienced
pilots ever make a mistake and have to be corrected? I know you would
never make a mistake but others might.
And, oh-my-gosh, what did you do when it was the CO that uttered
incorrect information? I suspect you didn't say, "You are wrong and you
are an idiot and you are going to kill yourself." I suspect you said
something like, "Pardon me sir but I remember that differently. I think
we ought to check this section of the manual over here just to be sure."
Sometimes it is all in how you say it.
> Also, a person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents
> (running
> into their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill
themselves
> (and sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
So instead of castigating, perhaps you could help?
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Fwd: FW: special young eagle flights. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
Did everyone see the feedback I got from EAA regarding my initial enquiry ?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: Fwd: FW: special young eagle flights.
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Subject: FW: special young eagle flights.
Hi Jim,
We received a similar suggestion recently from another member. I agree it
is an excellent idea and should be considered by all Warbird Squadrons and
EAA Chapters. The families of those shipped overseas are having a tough
time. Although I have not personally heard or read about children being
"mocked" this does represent a population of kids who could use a little TLC
right about now.
I would suggest you encourage your local squadron and fellow Warbird and EAA
members to participate. We will be doing the same though various
communication methods we have with the Chapters and our Coordinators.
Thanks for the great suggestion,
Steve Buss
EAA Young Eagles Program
-----Original Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com [mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
Subject: special young eagle flights.
EAAWB
We have been hearing news reports of late, that school children of service
personal, have been mocked by their "educators" and other children. This
being some absurd attempt at antiwar sentiment.
A number of our members have suggested that EAAWB sponsor some type of
action to give special recognition and appreciation to the children of
service personal. It was recommended that special Young Eagle flights be
offered to the different military service dependent programs.
Would that be possible?
Jim Goosby
Jim Goolsby, YPA Board Member
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
<META content"MSHTML 6.00.2719.2200" nameGENERATOR>
Hi Jim,
We
received a similar suggestion recently from another member. I agree it is
an excellent idea and should be considered by all Warbird Squadrons and EAA
Chapters. The families of those shipped overseas are having a tough
time. Although I have not personally heard or read about children being
"mocked" this does represent a population of kids who could use a little TLC
right about now.
I
would suggest you encourage your local squadron and fellow Warbird and EAA
members to participate. We will be doing the same though various
communication methods we have with the Chapters and our
Coordinators.
Thanks for the great
suggestion,
Steve
Buss
EAA
Young Eagles Program
-----Original
Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
[mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
PM
Cc:
yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: special young eagle
flights.
EAAWB
We have been hearing news
reports of late, that school children of service personal, have been
mocked=20by
their "educators" and other children. This being some absurd attempt at
antiwar sentiment.
A number of our members have suggested that
EAAWB sponsor some type of action to give special recognition and
appreciation
to the children of service personal. It was recommended that special Young
Eagle flights be offered to the different military service dependent
programs.
Would that be possible?
Jim
Goosby
Jim Goolsby, YPA Board
Member
"They that can give up
essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on
it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 21
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
Who would have thought that a comment of sympathy for Ernie's friend would
cause such a reaction.
Just when you thought it was safe to get back on the list.......
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frank Haertlein
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Prop Strike
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Brian;
I think you are basically right. A list like this can be valuable
because it's seen by so many eyes in a number of different
countries.....more eyes than you would expect in a typical hanger talk
BS session. That makes this list MORE valuable. When someone's advice
was a little off, I've seen other people call them on it and that only
adds to the learning experience........old wives tales, so to speak,
won't last long around here.
My 2 for what it's worth.
Frank
N911OM
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Mike McCoy wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Gus,
>
> I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will
> NEVER
> have a gear up landing.
And some will. We are dealing with the human mind and all we can do is
to instill good habit patterns through repetition that will hopefully
still take hold when a brain-fart occurs. Good pilots with good skills,
good training, and recent currency still run into situations that result
in accidents and incidents. It is a fact of life. We just try to stay
far enough from the edge of the envelope so we have some cushion for the
momentary lapse of procedure.
I know one supremely qualified, trained, and disciplined pilot who had a
gear-up incident once in his life. He was waived off repeatedly due to
a reoccuringly fouled runway and ultimately got into a low-fuel
situation which resulted in an abbreviated pattern. The repeated
violation of normal procedures with a not-quite-emergency thrown in
broke the chain of procedure and training and resulted in a gear-up
landing. Yup, he f----d up but he had a lot of help rom the situation
getting there.
Yes Mike, shit happens to even the best since no one is perfect. Yes,
we should all work toward perfection but we should also accept that
there are conditions that can break even the best chain of training and
habit. We all hope that we will have a stroke of good luck when that
happens. And everyone else I know hopes that the other guy will also
have a stroke of good luck when he/she needs it most.
> This is just total non-sense. However, a person who gets all their
> training
> and advice from an internet mail list is highly likely to have an
accident
> (as I have said many times before).
Here is a question for you. How much of what you learned came from
hangar flying in the squadron ready room? How much came from
discussions in the O'Club over a beer after a day of flying? Now
explain to me the difference between hangar flying in the squadron ready
room and hangar flying on this list. I suspect there were a few new
pilots fresh from the training command in your squadron. Did you give
them shit for listening to the other pilots talk? Did you give them
shit for asking questions? Did any of the other, more experienced
pilots ever make a mistake and have to be corrected? I know you would
never make a mistake but others might.
And, oh-my-gosh, what did you do when it was the CO that uttered
incorrect information? I suspect you didn't say, "You are wrong and you
are an idiot and you are going to kill yourself." I suspect you said
something like, "Pardon me sir but I remember that differently. I think
we ought to check this section of the manual over here just to be sure."
Sometimes it is all in how you say it.
> Also, a person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents
> (running
> into their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill
themselves
> (and sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
So instead of castigating, perhaps you could help?
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 22
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
Larry Salganek made a great remark at the NWOC last month when he was
giving a talk on safety... he said that when you've gotten news of the
sequence of events that happened that lead to some accident and you say:
"That would never happen to me. I'd never do that."
And you're right: you'll probably never do *that*... but, now you have to
complete the statement by saying, "No, the way *I'm* going to screw up...
is..." and then come up with the thing *you're* going to miss, in your own
special way, just in that fragile moment when it matters. Because you're
human... and humans do that.
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> Who would have thought that a comment of sympathy for Ernie's friend
> would cause such a reaction.
>
> Just when you thought it was safe to get back on the list.......
>
> Gus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frank Haertlein
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Prop Strike
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Brian;
> I think you are basically right. A list like this can be valuable
> because it's seen by so many eyes in a number of different
> countries.....more eyes than you would expect in a typical hanger talk
> BS session. That makes this list MORE valuable. When someone's advice
> was a little off, I've seen other people call them on it and that only
> adds to the learning experience........old wives tales, so to speak,
> won't last long around here.
>
> My 2 for what it's worth.
> Frank
> N911OM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop Strike
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> Mike McCoy wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>>
>> Gus,
>>
>> I hope you're kidding! Most well trained and disciplined pilots will
>> NEVER
>> have a gear up landing.
>
> And some will. We are dealing with the human mind and all we can do is
> to instill good habit patterns through repetition that will hopefully
> still take hold when a brain-fart occurs. Good pilots with good skills,
> good training, and recent currency still run into situations that result
> in accidents and incidents. It is a fact of life. We just try to stay
> far enough from the edge of the envelope so we have some cushion for the
> momentary lapse of procedure.
>
> I know one supremely qualified, trained, and disciplined pilot who had a
> gear-up incident once in his life. He was waived off repeatedly due to
> a reoccuringly fouled runway and ultimately got into a low-fuel
> situation which resulted in an abbreviated pattern. The repeated
> violation of normal procedures with a not-quite-emergency thrown in
> broke the chain of procedure and training and resulted in a gear-up
> landing. Yup, he f----d up but he had a lot of help rom the situation
> getting there.
>
> Yes Mike, shit happens to even the best since no one is perfect. Yes,
> we should all work toward perfection but we should also accept that
> there are conditions that can break even the best chain of training and
> habit. We all hope that we will have a stroke of good luck when that
> happens. And everyone else I know hopes that the other guy will also
> have a stroke of good luck when he/she needs it most.
>
>> This is just total non-sense. However, a person who gets all their
>> training
>> and advice from an internet mail list is highly likely to have an
> accident
>> (as I have said many times before).
>
> Here is a question for you. How much of what you learned came from
> hangar flying in the squadron ready room? How much came from
> discussions in the O'Club over a beer after a day of flying? Now
> explain to me the difference between hangar flying in the squadron ready
> room and hangar flying on this list. I suspect there were a few new
> pilots fresh from the training command in your squadron. Did you give
> them shit for listening to the other pilots talk? Did you give them
> shit for asking questions? Did any of the other, more experienced
> pilots ever make a mistake and have to be corrected? I know you would
> never make a mistake but others might.
>
> And, oh-my-gosh, what did you do when it was the CO that uttered
> incorrect information? I suspect you didn't say, "You are wrong and you
> are an idiot and you are going to kill yourself." I suspect you said
> something like, "Pardon me sir but I remember that differently. I think
> we ought to check this section of the manual over here just to be sure."
> Sometimes it is all in how you say it.
>
>> Also, a person who exihibits a pattern of several small incidents
>> (running
>> into their hanger, gear up landing, etc.) is very likely to kill
> themselves
>> (and sooner rather than later). Take that as a prediction.
>
> So instead of castigating, perhaps you could help?
>
> --
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
> brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 23
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Does anyone have a left elevator for a CJ gathering dust. I am repairing one for
a friend. The one I am working on will need a bit of work. So we may want to
fly wile this one is being fixed. Jay
Message 24
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| Subject: | RESULTS: Unofficial Formation Flying Poll |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Harry Hirschman <hairball192@yahoo.com>
Thanks to everyone who replied to my unofficial poll
and thanks to those who didn't for putting up with it.
Below are the responses I received. It's a long read,
but the short story is people fly formation when they
can find a wingman they know and trust because it is
challenging and fun; They follow the regs and would
like to learn how to do more advanced stuff including
dogfighting; and when they RTB they get a generally
positive, but mixed, reception from the rest of the
airport crowd.
Harry
---------------
1. Why do you fly formation?
Because it sharpens my flying skills, and is a heck
of a lot of fun.
Formation flying is more challenging than any
instrument flying you can do. ...and a hell of a lot
more fun! It also looks really great when you're
flying to a competition (or even to another airport
for lunch.) It really keeps your flying skills sharp!
I have been flying formation with my T28 for 12
years. I love it. I have done some formation work in
my S1-S.
I fly formation every chance I get!
Why formation? It's fun and challenging!
Enjoy the company- like riding motorcycles
side-by-side.
Fun, hone my skills
The 4 disciplines for a Pitts pilot: akro,
dogfighting, air-racing, formation
It is VERY fun and good for practice on a/c control.
EXCELLENT photo experience
It's fun!
Because it's fun! The precision flying skills
required are enormously satisfying.
Its challenging and improves airplane handling.
Same as why I fly aerobatics. It's fun, another
chance to improve flying skills
Fun. Part of a group of L-16's , Fox Wing of the
Wrong Brother's Air Force
Only when enroute to a contest.
Because it is fun and challenging.
Yes, because its challenging and fun
Same reason bikers ride in groups.
It's fun, it looks cool and you can get a flight of
4 into or out of an airport nearly as quickly as a
single ship
I fly formation because it is an absolute hoot. It
is challenging, and being successful is a very
satisfying feeling. It is also an opportunity to
spend quality time with a great bunch of guys
2. Why do you NOT fly formation?
Lack of formation flying partners. Feel free to
look me up if you're going to be in the New York City
/ Long Island area. mailto:steve.carpenter@nyc.rr.com
Can't find anyone to fly with
Hard to find partners; Hard to find partners you can
fly with frequently enough to build competency
Similar aircraft and interested pilot hard to
coordinate.
If I am not familiar with the other aircrafts pilot
skills
there is no one to fly with.
Because there's no one else around to fly with?
Cannot find anyone else that knows how.
don't trust the other guy.
Odd question. I do it whenver I can. I guess I
don't fly formation when the other people are not
knowlegable/qualified.
Too hard to stay in the box. Might be an ex-navy
guy in the other plane. On the wing I miss the all
the gals on the boat waving...
I fly formation whenever I get the chance. The main
show stopper is that it's hard to find other pilots
who are qualified and willing. I'm guessing most are
afraid of mid-airs or trying something new
Not applicable
3. What FAR's do you keep in mind when flying
formation?
All of the appropriate ones, just as I do for any
flight. (Is that politically correct, or what ?)
Any FAR's that pertain to formation flight or
pertain to the flight itself. (how was that for
covering the bases?) It's also extremely important to
do a pre-flight briefing with all the pilots, as well
as a post-flight briefing. You don't want any
surprises while flying in formation.
Always pre brief.
I follow all the regular FARs for solo flight and
add the requirement of preflight briefing,
communication frequencies, emerg. procedures,etc.
FAR Schmar: Lead insures that We do not hit
anything, Wing insures that we do not hit each other.
No other rules
Never without prior briefing (however informal)
generally avoid populated areas (class b/c)
All of them! (This was a trick question, right? ;-)
91.111
it's got to be pre arranged Before flight.
Well, in Canada, not many :-)
Can't think of any
Consent of other aircraft in the flight; cloud
clearances; obstacle clearances
FAR 91.111
I can't remember them, but I know there is one catch
all about wreckless flying etc...
None. I am not aware of any limitation other than
the one that says it must be prearranged.
Part 121 mostly, would hate to hit one of those big
fellas.
Corrdination between the PIC of all aircraft
involved. i.e. a good pre brief. also, not operating
so close as to cause a hazard (I'm to lazy to get the
FAR/AIM out to look them up)
All that I can remember
4. Are you interested in learning advanced formation
skills like maneuvering form, formation acro, and
tactical formation (and dogfighting)?
A current regular Air Force (ours) friend flys with
me whenever he is in town.
Yes, and for those of you interested, Michael
Mancuso (who flew with The Northern Lights and is now
doing a solo act) teaches formation flying at all
levels. He's on Long Island in NY, so if you get to
the area, I highly recommend doing a flight or two
with him. Michael can be reached at nlight4@aol.com.
Sure.
I would like to learn dogfighting skills. I would
like to do barrel rolls around a central leader. I
fly a Pitts S1 and a Su29 in Advanced category in the
northeast. My airport (IAG) has a tower and a
military base and supports all manner of formation
activities. Across the border with Canada ,only 15
miles away, is AirCombat Canada. They discourage guys
like me from engaging each other. They would love me
to spend thousands of dollars in their Extras ,
though! Scratch that! They crashed them last year in a
military formation training exercise that killed one
of the pilots. Now they fly a Stearman and a
Citabria. Maybe I'll try that route again. A Citabris
has got to be half the cost of the Extra.
Are you mad?
Yes
yes, only source now is books (not skills so much as
best-practices, hand signals etc) Making the leap to
formation akro is very hard.
Yep, and getting my FAST card.
Most definatly!!!
#4 yes.
One thing that isn't emphasized often enough: no
out-of-visual maneuvers, which is what killed the
"french connection", who flew some of the best piston
formation I've ever seen, except perhaps for the
northern lights (andre lortie et al).
Yes
Yes. I'm tired of being jumped and not able to
"fight" my way out of it
Are aircraft available for rental? Unless everyone
is flying the same type of aircraft, dissimilar
aircraft can be killer.
yes
Of course. But then, many of us are already doing
that.
Sure, always like free beers from the other guy
Yes
I don't know what this means. I am not interested
in dogfighting. I enjoy all of the standard formation
maneuvers including barrel rolls and loops on the wing
or whatever lead does that requires me to keep station
5. Does your airport support formation traffic
patterns like formation takeoffs, overhead breaks and
pitch-outs?
I fly out of Lewis University Airport (LOT),
uncontrolled field, but lots of student training. When
traffic permits, we make "360 overhead" approaches and
no one had complained. We regularly fly to
Springfield, Illinois airport (towered) where the
Illinois Air Guard has a squadron of F-16's, and when
we ask for an overhead break, they just ask what
altitude we want for Initial
Brookhaven in Long Island (HWV) does not allow
formation takeoffs / landings, however, we line up
behind each other on the ramp. When the plane in
front of you is rolling, you take position on the
runway. When the plane ahead of you hits 60 MPH, he
calls "Sixty" on the radio, then you start your roll.
This gives adequate separation, yet allows you to join
up on the crosswind. On return, the leader will call
"break formation" on the downwind as he turns base.
This gives you plenty of time to extend your downwind
and land appropriately and with proper separation.
Note: HWV is a non-towered class-G.
Most airports, I have been to, do allow formation
work. Every once and awhile I will run into a
controller that does not have a clue, but, this is the
exception.
Our runway isn't wide enough, nor are there
generally enough flying airplanes
Yes: controlled field (FCM) is very receptive
Yes, LVK. Attitude aviation here claims to have a
formation course.
Yep, even smoke from initial to the break.
I am guessing no. I'm not ready for that yet.
Usually we have just taken it to the extent of flight
of two with an exceptable seperation.
#5 yes.
Sure, but the runway at our uncontrolled airport is
only 75 feet wide, so we only do formation takeoffs,
not formation landings. Formation landings are
obviously an advanced maneuver, especially in an
aircraft with poor visibility and difficult
ground-handling characteristics such as the Pitts.
But too many people consider formation takeoffs to be
an easier maneuver and that isn't always so.
Uncontrolled Field
Yes
The airports and ATC in my area don't care. They
will occasionally ask that we state for the record
that we assume responsibility for separation.
Yeah, but it hasn't happened much around here since
our formation leader skipped town
Some times. Once coming back from a contest one of
the guys knew some sort of landing in formation thing
that we did. We came down together and as we were to
land the lead plane banked to the right and I
followed. I forget what he called it. And this was
at a Class D airport, Hanscom AFB right outside of
Boston.
Yes.
the airport loves it.
Roger. 2,3,4.
Yes, SHV Shreveport Down Town, most of the
controllers are ex military or have worked at joint
use fields. They have been really good working with
us, they offer myself and about 3 or 4 other guys
"initial" as soon as we check in. A couple of the
controllers know how to use "approach end / mid
field/departure end break" to space us in the pattern
Yes
http://platinum.yahoo.com
Message 25
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Thanks Doug for the quick action I will pass on the info.
Message 26
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| Subject: | bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Some of you know me personally and my back ground. For those who don't,
briefly I started flying when I was 15. The year I turned 23, I had 3,000
hours and my ATP. I now have over 23,000 hours. I have every Boeing type
rateing except for the B737. I now have over a 1,000 hours in the CJ-6. A
few years ago, I pulled the gear out from under my perfectly good CJ-6 while
taxing in. Those who were there, know how badly that effected me. It was
the first time I have ever bent an airplane, ever.
With in a few days, sensing a need, I had no less than 3 of my contemporaries
call, and 'welcome me to the "Club". These were very professional high time
pilots. In the years sense, I've seen Navy trained professionals, who had
never flown a fixed gear airplane, land with the gear up. I've heard of
decorated military jocks, kill notches on their belt, land their perfectly
good F-"Sweet Jesus!" gear up. I have come to the conclusion that as long as
there are retractable gear, human beings will make gear up landings. Its a
given law of the universe.
Every time I hear these stories and safety studies prove it, there is always
an extenuating circumstance that mixed its self into normal operations. The
military with deep pockets, can dictate fantastic training programs and
unlimited gas from the pumps for it. We just don't have that. The mind set
of that military experience, though some may think it infallible, can't money
wise and personality wise, work on the civilian ramp. BUT what does carry
over are the causes, for "dumb ass" tricks like landing with the gear up.
BTW those are usually the first words uttered by the offender.
What we learn from this, is that screw ups, like these, happen when something
different is happening. Something has been added to the situation out of the
norm. THIS is the time to be really careful. Formation flying, working
airshows, practicing emergencies, or flying into a strange field with your
warbird, and noticing a shapely blond looking in your direction, add to the
distractions that can lead to bent birds.
Some pilots handle these distractions handily. The more hours under the
belt, the better you get, BUT THERE'S NO DAMN GUARANTEE! Training? Yes, it
helps. It does a lot of good. BUT it is still not a guarantee.
Get well verist with your airplane's handling and its systems. Know them
hands down. Understand what you are doing when you are performing the
emergency procedures if you need too. Make sure you know what is expected of
you during a formation and know what YOU are capable of doing during any
flight. Than try to improve.
The screw ups are always waiting out there for the unsuspecting pilot. Like
the legendary Gremlins of WW2, they sit on the airport fences or hangar
conners. They hid in the mist with the hills and other hard things. And
they don't give a tinkers damn on how long you've been around. They'll catch
you when you're not looking.
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 27
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KROwen@charter.net, mentor@cheshir.com, PaulSanden@aol.com,
Ruthcopes@aol.com, artziggy6@yahoo.com, carriesuerowe@yahoo.com,
paulbeth.mullen@worldnet.att.net, wildf15c@hotmail.com,
wpairprt@tdstelme.net, garvey@attbi.com, bncdenham@peakonline.com,
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net, pino1@compuserve.com, RAre406906@aol.com,
CEParaiso@aol.com, JGoolsby@umaryland.edu, keith.goolsby@eds.com,
moreira_thais@hotmail.com, vicky@shippei.com, paraisoam@surfbest.net,
EdrisDee@aol.com, Ckelso17@earthlink.net, Bigj10@msn.com, gaf127enl@msn.com,
MDSHELLEY@aol.com, yakjock@msn.com, walterfricke@yahoo.com,
finleycj6@juno.com, BDorsey777@aol.com, Swifty305@aol.com,
tcalloway@datatechnique.com, paulcfitzgerald@attbi.com,
mason.t@worldnet.att.net, radialpower@cox.net
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Friends & Family,
Just listened to the President speech.
Soon the fighting men and women over there will step, for us, into harms way.
I ask that you say a prayer, under whatever faith you believe in.
Or have just quite reflection for those, our finest, over there.
You may be for or against the war. Don't matter.
They deserve our considerations and prayers.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 28
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KROwen@charter.net, mentor@cheshir.com, PaulSanden@aol.com,
Ruthcopes@aol.com, artziggy6@yahoo.com, carriesuerowe@yahoo.com,
paulbeth.mullen@worldnet.att.net, wildf15c@hotmail.com,
wpairprt@tdstelme.net, garvey@attbi.com, bncdenham@peakonline.com,
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net, pino1@compuserve.com, RAre406906@aol.com,
CEParaiso@aol.com, JGoolsby@umaryland.edu, keith.goolsby@eds.com,
moreira_thais@hotmail.com, vicky@shippei.com, paraisoam@surfbest.net,
EdrisDee@aol.com, Ckelso17@earthlink.net, Bigj10@msn.com, gaf127enl@msn.com,
MDSHELLEY@aol.com, yakjock@msn.com, walterfricke@yahoo.com,
finleycj6@juno.com, BDorsey777@aol.com, Swifty305@aol.com,
tcalloway@datatechnique.com, paulcfitzgerald@attbi.com,
mason.t@worldnet.att.net
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
Amen. We will pray not only for our troops, but for *all* the souls
that will be lost, and that their families and their friends might be
comforted in this difficult time.
Barry
On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 07:57 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> Friends & Family,
>
> Just listened to the President speech.=A0
> Soon the fighting men and women over there will step, for us, into
> harms way.
>
> I ask that you say a prayer, under whatever faith you believe in.=A0
> Or have just quite reflection for those, our finest, over there.
>
> You may be for or against the war.=A0 Don't matter.
> They deserve our considerations and prayers.
>
> Jim
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
Benjamin Franklin
1759
> "With my shield, or on it"
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
Trojan Warriors
BC
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "dabear" <dabear@damned.org>
Jim/Mr. Goolsby, Pappy,
You continue to make me glad I joined the YPA. I get to hang out
with some of the nicest people, who I respect and learn from, and
have a great time doing. You and others within the organization
allow me to learn from your skills, your experience, and yes even
your mistakes. I come away from every single clinic, with at least
one new lesson, skill, or technique. Frequently with more than one.
Thank you for sharing your skills, training, and experience at the
YPA clinics.
Respectfully,
Al DeVere
----- Original Message -----
From: <cjpilot710@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: bent props and other things
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> Some of you know me personally and my back ground. For those who
don't,
> briefly I started flying when I was 15. The year I turned 23, I
had 3,000
> hours and my ATP. I now have over 23,000 hours. I have every
Boeing type
> rateing except for the B737. I now have over a 1,000 hours in the
CJ-6. A
> few years ago, I pulled the gear out from under my perfectly good
CJ-6 while
> taxing in. Those who were there, know how badly that effected me.
It was
> the first time I have ever bent an airplane, ever.
>
> With in a few days, sensing a need, I had no less than 3 of my
contemporaries
> call, and 'welcome me to the "Club". These were very professional
high time
> pilots. In the years sense, I've seen Navy trained professionals,
who had
> never flown a fixed gear airplane, land with the gear up. I've
heard of
> decorated military jocks, kill notches on their belt, land their
perfectly
> good F-"Sweet Jesus!" gear up. I have come to the conclusion that
as long as
> there are retractable gear, human beings will make gear up
landings. Its a
> given law of the universe.
>
> Every time I hear these stories and safety studies prove it, there
is always
> an extenuating circumstance that mixed its self into normal
operations. The
> military with deep pockets, can dictate fantastic training
programs and
> unlimited gas from the pumps for it. We just don't have that.
The mind set
> of that military experience, though some may think it infallible,
can't money
> wise and personality wise, work on the civilian ramp. BUT what
does carry
> over are the causes, for "dumb ass" tricks like landing with the
gear up.
> BTW those are usually the first words uttered by the offender.
>
> What we learn from this, is that screw ups, like these, happen
when something
> different is happening. Something has been added to the situation
out of the
> norm. THIS is the time to be really careful. Formation flying,
working
> airshows, practicing emergencies, or flying into a strange field
with your
> warbird, and noticing a shapely blond looking in your direction,
add to the
> distractions that can lead to bent birds.
>
> Some pilots handle these distractions handily. The more hours
under the
> belt, the better you get, BUT THERE'S NO DAMN GUARANTEE!
Training? Yes, it
> helps. It does a lot of good. BUT it is still not a guarantee.
>
> Get well verist with your airplane's handling and its systems.
Know them
> hands down. Understand what you are doing when you are performing
the
> emergency procedures if you need too. Make sure you know what is
expected of
> you during a formation and know what YOU are capable of doing
during any
> flight. Than try to improve.
>
> The screw ups are always waiting out there for the unsuspecting
pilot. Like
> the legendary Gremlins of WW2, they sit on the airport fences or
hangar
> conners. They hid in the mist with the hills and other hard
things. And
> they don't give a tinkers damn on how long you've been around.
They'll catch
> you when you're not looking.
>
>
> Jim Goolsby
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
safety,
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> Benjamin Franklin
1759
> "With my shield, or on it"
> Trojan Warriors
BC
>
>
====
>
====
>
====
>
====
>
>
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