Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:08 AM - Re: bent props and other things (FOUGAPILOT@aol.com)
2. 04:27 AM - Re: bent props and other things (Gus Fraser)
3. 04:58 AM - Re: bent props and other things (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 05:02 AM - Re: bent props and other things (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 05:15 AM - Re: bent props and other things (Brian Lloyd)
6. 05:21 AM - Re: bent props and other things (cjpilot710@aol.com)
7. 09:13 AM - Re: YAK 18T is certifed (Ron Davis)
8. 09:16 AM - Re: bent props and other things (Petri, David S. CDR NNSOC)
9. 09:49 AM - Check lists and gear slide (Doug)
10. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners (Ron Davis)
11. 10:48 AM - Re: Check lists and gear slide (Brian Lloyd)
12. 01:06 PM - Re: bent props and other things (ByronMFox@aol.com)
13. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners (A. Dennis Savarese)
14. 03:18 PM - Re: bent props and other things (Craig Payne)
15. 03:26 PM - Re: Restrictions (Craig Payne)
16. 05:26 PM - Cj6 elevator (jay reiter)
17. 05:45 PM - Re: Cj6 elevator (cjpilot710@aol.com)
18. 06:22 PM - Re: Restrictions (Ron Davis)
19. 07:59 PM - Re: Restrictions (A. Dennis Savarese)
20. 08:13 PM - Re: Restrictions (cjpilot710@aol.com)
21. 09:48 PM - Re: Restrictions (Jon Boede)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: FOUGAPILOT@aol.com
Well said Pappy, well said.
I like Al am happy to have join the YPA for the wealth of information out
there. A good pilot must learn from mistakes, his/hers or someone else. I
must admit, every time I put my hand on that flap lever, I double check which
lever I hold in my hand and think of your mishap.
Thank you
Dan Fortin
Message 2
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| Subject: | bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
I have gone so far as starting to move the gear lever. I did it once now it
is indelibly burned into my brain.
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
FOUGAPILOT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: bent props and other things
--> Yak-List message posted by: FOUGAPILOT@aol.com
Well said Pappy, well said.
I like Al am happy to have join the YPA for the wealth of information out
there. A good pilot must learn from mistakes, his/hers or someone else. I
must admit, every time I put my hand on that flap lever, I double check
which
lever I hold in my hand and think of your mishap.
Thank you
Dan Fortin
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
This may be trivial, but while going through both my take-off and landing
checklists, I now include sliding the slide-lock into the lock position to
prevent the gear lever from being moved beyond the neutral position
inadvertently, whenever I move the gear handle up or down. As soon as I
place the gear lever in the up or down position, the slide-lock is moved
into the lock position.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: bent props and other things
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> I have gone so far as starting to move the gear lever. I did it once now
it
> is indelibly burned into my brain.
>
> Gus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> FOUGAPILOT@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: bent props and other things
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: FOUGAPILOT@aol.com
>
> Well said Pappy, well said.
>
> I like Al am happy to have join the YPA for the wealth of information out
> there. A good pilot must learn from mistakes, his/hers or someone else.
I
> must admit, every time I put my hand on that flap lever, I double check
> which
> lever I hold in my hand and think of your mishap.
>
> Thank you
>
> Dan Fortin
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Pappy,
Your words of wisdom always impresses me. I'm glad to be a card-carrying
member of this fine group and for having had the opportunity to listen and
learn from you.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: <cjpilot710@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: bent props and other things
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> Some of you know me personally and my back ground. For those who don't,
> briefly I started flying when I was 15. The year I turned 23, I had 3,000
> hours and my ATP. I now have over 23,000 hours. I have every Boeing type
> rateing except for the B737. I now have over a 1,000 hours in the CJ-6.
A
> few years ago, I pulled the gear out from under my perfectly good CJ-6
while
> taxing in. Those who were there, know how badly that effected me. It was
> the first time I have ever bent an airplane, ever.
>
> With in a few days, sensing a need, I had no less than 3 of my
contemporaries
> call, and 'welcome me to the "Club". These were very professional high
time
> pilots. In the years sense, I've seen Navy trained professionals, who had
> never flown a fixed gear airplane, land with the gear up. I've heard of
> decorated military jocks, kill notches on their belt, land their perfectly
> good F-"Sweet Jesus!" gear up. I have come to the conclusion that as long
as
> there are retractable gear, human beings will make gear up landings. Its
a
> given law of the universe.
>
> Every time I hear these stories and safety studies prove it, there is
always
> an extenuating circumstance that mixed its self into normal operations.
The
> military with deep pockets, can dictate fantastic training programs and
> unlimited gas from the pumps for it. We just don't have that. The mind
set
> of that military experience, though some may think it infallible, can't
money
> wise and personality wise, work on the civilian ramp. BUT what does carry
> over are the causes, for "dumb ass" tricks like landing with the gear up.
> BTW those are usually the first words uttered by the offender.
>
> What we learn from this, is that screw ups, like these, happen when
something
> different is happening. Something has been added to the situation out of
the
> norm. THIS is the time to be really careful. Formation flying, working
> airshows, practicing emergencies, or flying into a strange field with your
> warbird, and noticing a shapely blond looking in your direction, add to
the
> distractions that can lead to bent birds.
>
> Some pilots handle these distractions handily. The more hours under the
> belt, the better you get, BUT THERE'S NO DAMN GUARANTEE! Training? Yes,
it
> helps. It does a lot of good. BUT it is still not a guarantee.
>
> Get well verist with your airplane's handling and its systems. Know them
> hands down. Understand what you are doing when you are performing the
> emergency procedures if you need too. Make sure you know what is expected
of
> you during a formation and know what YOU are capable of doing during any
> flight. Than try to improve.
>
> The screw ups are always waiting out there for the unsuspecting pilot.
Like
> the legendary Gremlins of WW2, they sit on the airport fences or hangar
> conners. They hid in the mist with the hills and other hard things. And
> they don't give a tinkers damn on how long you've been around. They'll
catch
> you when you're not looking.
>
>
> Jim Goolsby
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> Benjamin Franklin 1759
> "With my shield, or on it"
> Trojan Warriors BC
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> This may be trivial, but while going through both my take-off and landing
> checklists, I now include sliding the slide-lock into the lock position to
> prevent the gear lever from being moved beyond the neutral position
> inadvertently, whenever I move the gear handle up or down. As soon as I
> place the gear lever in the up or down position, the slide-lock is moved
> into the lock position.
I teach the same thing. When the gear is down the slide lock *IS* engaged.
I guess it is time to admit that I almost did what Jim did: pull up the gear on
the ground. It was at OSH. I was on Jim's wing as we taxied off the runway
after a formation arrival. We did the formation "flaps up" when off the runway.
Instead of the flap handle, I grabbed the gear handle. Major brain fart. (I
always wondered how Jim could have grabbed the gear handle on the ground and now
I have my answer.) The slide lock saved my airplane and my pride. I have
always been religious about "GUMPS" on downwind and I teach "flaps -- visually
verify flaps" for flap retraction when *OFF* the runway. Still, I broke
training and ...
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 3/18/2003 7:58:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
adsavar@gte.net writes:
> This may be trivial, but while going through both my take-off and landing
> checklists, I now include sliding the slide-lock into the lock position to
> prevent the gear lever from being moved beyond the neutral position
> inadvertently, whenever I move the gear handle up or down. As soon as I
> place the gear lever in the up or down position, the slide-lock is moved
> into the lock position.
> Dennis Savarese
>
There was the little screw-up that caught me. A mere flick of the thumb,
that's all it would have taken to save me. Just a slight change in habit
since no airplane I had flown before had such a latch. Sometime all it take
is something as simple as that.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: YAK 18T is certifed |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
And if you register it there and fly it here, you will have toget a pilot's
license (that's LICENCE to you) from there.
>From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: YAK 18T is certifed
>Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:25:47 -0400
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
>Mark Jefferies. wrote:
> > A possible reason why so few in the USA is that they require a high open
>top
> > container to ship.However we have the answer, fly it across from the UK.
>We
> > can give you 10 hrs of fuel, it has a larger oil tank also, that's
>enough to
> > do Iceland, green land etc. Summer is coming :)))
>
>If you get any takers, I will be happy to fly it over for them. I need a
>break.
>
> > And BTW the AN2 is also certified in the OEM and other countries in
>Europe,
> > why use the experimental reg when for a little extra work you have an
>a/c
> > that is able to operate on an AOC? Even the UK CAA accept the a/c has a
>full
> > normal certificate!!!
>
>If you get it registered and certified there, not here. It cannot be
>registered
>with a normal AC here in the US. GAMA saw to that.
>
>--
>
>Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
>brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
>+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Petri, David S. CDR NNSOC" <David.Petri@ARSPACE.ARMY.MIL>
Great post, Jim. Thanks.
Some time ago, John Alber came up with the original idea of tapping off the
flap/gear lights to activate a horn in the event of a gear-up/flaps-down
configuration. I thought that was a great idea, but the idea of a warning
horn being heard in the cockpit gave me pause. I contacted Joe Fisher at
Flight Tech who supplies a gear warning device which alerts the pilot via an
audible headset alert. I asked Joe if I could wire his IGWD in a manner
similar to John Alber's warning device. Joe said it wasn't really designed
to work that way, but he promised he could do it by reworking the circuit
board... and he did. The new circuit board is quite a major redesign from
the IGWD. The old board was a single sided printed circuit board that Joe
made in-house. But with the addition of a second trigger input, Joe
redesigned the board, made it into a two side board and had it made at the
board house that makes his other printed circuit boards.
The new design includes the following additions.
1 Adjustable audio input level
2. DIP Switch settings for four options.
3. Dual Trigger Inputs, Flaps and Landing Gear.
4. Output for Warning Light.
I've installed the unit and it works great. It's powered off the "Gear
Warn" breaker and the triggers are tapped off the flaps/gear lights, just
like John's design. The audio output is tapped onto the headset female
plug, so no fancy interface with the intercom is required. I didn't make
use of the Warning Light output, but I may in the future.
Now this unit won't guarantee you won't land gear up and it won't preclude
you from raising the gear on the deck, but it will help break the accident
chain during final approach. I seem to work real hard to slow the aircraft
to below flap extension speed... just waiting for the opportunity to dump
the flaps. I can envision a scenario where I might forget the gear, but it
will be real hard for me to forget the flaps... particularly with the rather
high approach I use with the Yak.
Joe's a great guy and highly recommended. www.flighttech.com
Cheers,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com [mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
Subject: Yak-List: bent props and other things
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Some of you know me personally and my back ground. For those who don't,
briefly I started flying when I was 15. The year I turned 23, I had 3,000
hours and my ATP. I now have over 23,000 hours. I have every Boeing type
rateing except for the B737. I now have over a 1,000 hours in the CJ-6. A
few years ago, I pulled the gear out from under my perfectly good CJ-6 while
taxing in. Those who were there, know how badly that effected me. It was
the first time I have ever bent an airplane, ever.
With in a few days, sensing a need, I had no less than 3 of my
contemporaries
call, and 'welcome me to the "Club". These were very professional high time
pilots. In the years sense, I've seen Navy trained professionals, who had
never flown a fixed gear airplane, land with the gear up. I've heard of
decorated military jocks, kill notches on their belt, land their perfectly
good F-"Sweet Jesus!" gear up. I have come to the conclusion that as long
as
there are retractable gear, human beings will make gear up landings. Its a
given law of the universe.
Every time I hear these stories and safety studies prove it, there is always
an extenuating circumstance that mixed its self into normal operations. The
military with deep pockets, can dictate fantastic training programs and
unlimited gas from the pumps for it. We just don't have that. The mind set
of that military experience, though some may think it infallible, can't
money
wise and personality wise, work on the civilian ramp. BUT what does carry
over are the causes, for "dumb ass" tricks like landing with the gear up.
BTW those are usually the first words uttered by the offender.
What we learn from this, is that screw ups, like these, happen when
something
different is happening. Something has been added to the situation out of
the
norm. THIS is the time to be really careful. Formation flying, working
airshows, practicing emergencies, or flying into a strange field with your
warbird, and noticing a shapely blond looking in your direction, add to the
distractions that can lead to bent birds.
Some pilots handle these distractions handily. The more hours under the
belt, the better you get, BUT THERE'S NO DAMN GUARANTEE! Training? Yes,
it
helps. It does a lot of good. BUT it is still not a guarantee.
Get well verist with your airplane's handling and its systems. Know them
hands down. Understand what you are doing when you are performing the
emergency procedures if you need too. Make sure you know what is expected
of
you during a formation and know what YOU are capable of doing during any
flight. Than try to improve.
The screw ups are always waiting out there for the unsuspecting pilot. Like
the legendary Gremlins of WW2, they sit on the airport fences or hangar
conners. They hid in the mist with the hills and other hard things. And
they don't give a tinkers damn on how long you've been around. They'll
catch
you when you're not looking.
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 9
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| Subject: | Check lists and gear slide |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
How many of your GUMP check lists include the gear lock slide in the written
text? Mine did, and I still occasionally look over and see it not in the
locked position. To help solve this I now lock it both going up and down.
Now it is rare that I find it in the "gonna cost you money position". Yes
the gremlins are everywhere, I have had them open the door of my Bonanza on
takeoff, unlatch the fuel cover on my miniyak, but two of the worst ones I
have ever heard of was when they (the gremlins) put the rudder gust lock
back in place in a friends twin (on takeoff), the other was when they
somehow managed to tie (re-tie) a 50 lb tie down block of cement to the tail
of my instructor's Cherokee 180. In both incidents the gremlins were
soundly defeated with out damage to either aircraft. Oh YES!, we are all
human.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: bent props and other things
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> This may be trivial, but while going through both my take-off and landing
> checklists, I now include sliding the slide-lock into the lock position to
> prevent the gear lever from being moved beyond the neutral position
> inadvertently, whenever I move the gear handle up or down. As soon as I
> place the gear lever in the up or down position, the slide-lock is moved
> into the lock position.
> Dennis Savarese
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: bent props and other things
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
> >
> > I have gone so far as starting to move the gear lever. I did it once now
> it
> > is indelibly burned into my brain.
> >
> > Gus
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> > FOUGAPILOT@aol.com
> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: bent props and other things
> >
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: FOUGAPILOT@aol.com
> >
> > Well said Pappy, well said.
> >
> > I like Al am happy to have join the YPA for the wealth of information
out
> > there. A good pilot must learn from mistakes, his/hers or someone else.
> I
> > must admit, every time I put my hand on that flap lever, I double check
> > which
> > lever I hold in my hand and think of your mishap.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Dan Fortin
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
There are eight Experimental clasifications ("other" is not among them):
Show compliance with Regs, Research and Development, Amateur Built,
Exhibition, Racing, Crew Training, Market Survey, and Operating Kit Built.
Anyone who thinks this is incorrect should look at FAA from 8130-6
"Application for airworthiness certificate". The person registering the
plane selects the category he wants and then may/will be required to prove
that it will be USED for that purpose (it doesn't really matter what it was
built for) and it meets any qualifications (51% owner built for "Amateur
Built", etc.) for that class.
The "standard" Operating limitations vary for the different experimental
classes. They are somewhat negotiable if the feds like you or hate your
lawyer enough.
>From: scott.huff@aivia.aero
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: Yak Email List <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners
>Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:55:38 -0500
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: scott.huff@aivia.aero
>
>Excellent advice from everyone regarding airworthiness certification of the
>18T. Thank you very much for the feedback!
>
>I performed a search of the FAA database and discovered the following:
>
>1. There are six Yak 18Ts currently registered with the FAA in the US.
>
>2. Of the six, four were issued Experimental/Exhibition airworthiness
>certificates.
>
>3. The other two didn't list any airworthiness certification, so I'm
>assuming
>they have just been imported and/or under restoration, pending an
>airworthiness
>inspection.
>
>4. The 18T that was for sale in Virginia Beach did not show up in the list
>of
>six. I'm assuming the Bill of Sale issues have not been resolved as of
>yet.
>
>So, based on this information alone, I am assuming that the FAA considers
>the
>18T in Group 3 of the Experimental/Exhibition category. Correct
>assumption?
>
>Should I contact my local FSDO and pose the hypothetical question, or do
>you
>think this might cause problems down the road?
>
>Respectfully,
>Scott Huff
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Check lists and gear slide |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Doug wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> How many of your GUMP check lists include the gear lock slide in the written
> text?
Check the checklist on the CJ6 site. It specifically includes the slide lock.
> Mine did, and I still occasionally look over and see it not in the
> locked position. To help solve this I now lock it both going up and down.
> Now it is rare that I find it in the "gonna cost you money position".
I beat that into my students. When they say "gear down" either as part of the
pre-start-up, pre-take-off, or in the GUMPS check on downwind, they get yelled
at if they don't include "slide lock engaged". I teach that there is *NEVER* a
time when the gear lever is down that the slide lock is NOT engaged.
> the gremlins are everywhere, I have had them open the door of my Bonanza on
> takeoff, unlatch the fuel cover on my miniyak, but two of the worst ones I
> have ever heard of was when they (the gremlins) put the rudder gust lock
> back in place in a friends twin (on takeoff), the other was when they
> somehow managed to tie (re-tie) a 50 lb tie down block of cement to the tail
> of my instructor's Cherokee 180. In both incidents the gremlins were
> soundly defeated with out damage to either aircraft. Oh YES!, we are all
> human.
They will get you if you don't watch out.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com
Thanks, Jim. Because I learned that a friend, and now you, inadvertently
pulled the gear handle up on his CJ on a taxiway, I now throw the lock over
every time the gear handle goes down. Listening to hangar talk is essential.
In 2600 hours, I haven't landed gear up .....yet, but in 160 hours since I
got my CJ 14 months ago, I have failed to turn the air valve on TWICE! Both
times I was distracted just prior to start and both times I was dumb lucky to
catch it during run-up. Both times, there was sufficient pressure in the
system to start and taxi with the requisite braking to the run-up pad 200
yards away.
I've added "Recheck Air" to the written checklist and compulsively drop my
left hand on to valve repeatedly after start, but, man, I'm nervous. Imagine
being distracted during a formation start, taxing in trail only to run out of
air. It really scares me.
Blitz
Byron M. Fox
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
Home 415-380-0907
Cell 415-307-2405
Fax 415-380-0917
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
I agree "Other" is not an Experimental classification. However it IS a
Group classification (Group IV) under Experimental Exhibition which is where
our CJ6's and YAK52's fall (Group III). That is what I was referring to in
previous posts.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>
> There are eight Experimental clasifications ("other" is not among them):
> Show compliance with Regs, Research and Development, Amateur Built,
> Exhibition, Racing, Crew Training, Market Survey, and Operating Kit Built.
> Anyone who thinks this is incorrect should look at FAA from 8130-6
> "Application for airworthiness certificate". The person registering the
> plane selects the category he wants and then may/will be required to prove
> that it will be USED for that purpose (it doesn't really matter what it
was
> built for) and it meets any qualifications (51% owner built for "Amateur
> Built", etc.) for that class.
>
> The "standard" Operating limitations vary for the different experimental
> classes. They are somewhat negotiable if the feds like you or hate your
> lawyer enough.
>
>
> >From: scott.huff@aivia.aero
> >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >To: Yak Email List <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Yak-List: Re: Would like to talk with Yak 18T Owners
> >Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:55:38 -0500
> >
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: scott.huff@aivia.aero
> >
> >Excellent advice from everyone regarding airworthiness certification of
the
> >18T. Thank you very much for the feedback!
> >
> >I performed a search of the FAA database and discovered the following:
> >
> >1. There are six Yak 18Ts currently registered with the FAA in the US.
> >
> >2. Of the six, four were issued Experimental/Exhibition airworthiness
> >certificates.
> >
> >3. The other two didn't list any airworthiness certification, so I'm
> >assuming
> >they have just been imported and/or under restoration, pending an
> >airworthiness
> >inspection.
> >
> >4. The 18T that was for sale in Virginia Beach did not show up in the
list
> >of
> >six. I'm assuming the Bill of Sale issues have not been resolved as of
> >yet.
> >
> >So, based on this information alone, I am assuming that the FAA considers
> >the
> >18T in Group 3 of the Experimental/Exhibition category. Correct
> >assumption?
> >
> >Should I contact my local FSDO and pose the hypothetical question, or do
> >you
> >think this might cause problems down the road?
> >
> >Respectfully,
> >Scott Huff
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: bent props and other things |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
Blitz,
Too late, someone else already did that but no paint was swapped, hence
one more good reason for making sure you are turned away from the plane
ahead of you during runup.
Craig Payne
>ByronMFox@aol.com wrote:
>...
> Imagine
> being distracted during a formation start, taxing in trail only to run out of
> air. It really scares me.
>
> Blitz
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Restrictions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
Uh, gee, my CJ was certified in the post-moratorium era when there was
no common language. It is "Experimental-Exhibition/Air racing" with
fairly benign restrictions. Of course the category is the reason why I
race it...
I plan on moving from the Chicago FSDO area this year to the Tampa area
so I need to dig out those old posts to see how others did it without
getting hosed by some FSDO type protecting the world against Communism.
So did someone say that the list was useless???
Craig Payne
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> I agree "Other" is not an Experimental classification. However it IS a
> Group classification (Group IV) under Experimental Exhibition which is where
> our CJ6's and YAK52's fall (Group III). That is what I was referring to in
> previous posts.
> Dennis Savarese
======================================================================
Message 16
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|
--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
I am finishing the sheet metal repair to a damaged elevator. Does any one have
some words of wisdom on covering? Does the trim tab have to be removed to recover
the surface? What kind of rap are they using around the channel that the trim
tab mounts to. I hear they use a funny knot on the rib stitching. Any help
will be appreciated. Jay
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cj6 elevator |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 3/18/2003 8:27:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jmreiter@adelphia.net writes:
>
> I am finishing the sheet metal repair to a damaged elevator. Does any one
> have some words of wisdom on covering? Does the trim tab have to be removed
> to recover the surface? What kind of rap are they using around the channel
> that the trim tab mounts to. I hear they use a funny knot on the rib
> stitching. Any help will be appreciated. Jay
>
>
Jay,
Don't even try to figure that knot out. Use standard knot for rib stitching.
I used Stits (?) poly-fiber. Ceconite is good to. I cut to shape and used
the glue overlap method. I used seaplane drain grommets. Mask off the sharp
edges. Just use good standard 43 methods.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Restrictions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
If they tell you that you will have to get a new Airworthiness Certificate
with the new operating limits, tell them to show you where it says you have
to this. I don't believe they can do it.
>From: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Restrictions
>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:25:56 -0600
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
>
>Uh, gee, my CJ was certified in the post-moratorium era when there was
>no common language. It is "Experimental-Exhibition/Air racing" with
>fairly benign restrictions. Of course the category is the reason why I
>race it...
>
>I plan on moving from the Chicago FSDO area this year to the Tampa area
>so I need to dig out those old posts to see how others did it without
>getting hosed by some FSDO type protecting the world against Communism.
>
>So did someone say that the list was useless???
>
>Craig Payne
>
>A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >
> > I agree "Other" is not an Experimental classification. However it IS a
> > Group classification (Group IV) under Experimental Exhibition which is
>where
> > our CJ6's and YAK52's fall (Group III). That is what I was referring
>to in
> > previous posts.
> > Dennis Savarese
>======================================================================
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Restrictions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
It clearly states in FAA Order 8130.2D Change 3 that OL's and AC are tied
together. "....These operating limitations
are a part of the special airworthiness certificate...". Once the home base
airport changes, the OL's are effectively null and void and therefore so is
the AC.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Restrictions
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>
> If they tell you that you will have to get a new Airworthiness Certificate
> with the new operating limits, tell them to show you where it says you
have
> to this. I don't believe they can do it.
>
>
> >From: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
> >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Restrictions
> >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:25:56 -0600
> >
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
> >
> >Uh, gee, my CJ was certified in the post-moratorium era when there was
> >no common language. It is "Experimental-Exhibition/Air racing" with
> >fairly benign restrictions. Of course the category is the reason why I
> >race it...
> >
> >I plan on moving from the Chicago FSDO area this year to the Tampa area
> >so I need to dig out those old posts to see how others did it without
> >getting hosed by some FSDO type protecting the world against Communism.
> >
> >So did someone say that the list was useless???
> >
> >Craig Payne
> >
> >A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> > >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> > >
> > > I agree "Other" is not an Experimental classification. However it IS
a
> > > Group classification (Group IV) under Experimental Exhibition which is
> >where
> > > our CJ6's and YAK52's fall (Group III). That is what I was referring
> >to in
> > > previous posts.
> > > Dennis Savarese
> >======================================================================
> >
> >
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Restrictions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Craig,
When you get down here, you'll be doing business with the Orlando (MCO)
FSDO-15. I can give you the contacts than. These guys down here seem to
have a handle on what the regs mean (Boy! aren't I optimistic?) Hopefully
you'll get the same guy as I.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Restrictions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
Our FAA guy has stated *repeatedly* that the airworthiness certificate
remains in effect even if you have to get new operating limitations...
they CANNOT revoke an airworthiness certificate that has "unlimited" on
the expiration date. In fact, he's been quite gleeful in pointing out
that there's been no mechanism provided for revoking an airworthiness
certificate.
You have a couple of options...
First, you can get the new FSDO to issue limitations from 8130.2D, which
are pretty livable. If they insist on adding nonsense to them such as
land/t-o at a single airport (which they're not supposed to do), then:
Second, it would be possible to get your current FSDO to simply ammend
your limitations and change your operating base. This might make the new
FSDO mad, but only if you tell them. :-)
In either case, get your current FSDO to acknowlege a letter noting that
you're moving your aircraft to a new base. If your current limitations
don't give a time frame for having to get new limitations issued, you can
play "nanner nanner" with your new FSDO (uh, being careful not to make
them mad :-) for a very long time.
If it gets weird, get the EAA Legal guys to call into the new FSDO and ask
them why they're wasting the taxpayers' money dragging out something
that's clearly not a safety-of-flight issue.
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> It clearly states in FAA Order 8130.2D Change 3 that OL's and AC are
> tied together. "....These operating limitations
> are a part of the special airworthiness certificate...". Once the home
> base airport changes, the OL's are effectively null and void and
> therefore so is the AC.
> Dennis Savarese
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Restrictions
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>>
>> If they tell you that you will have to get a new Airworthiness
>> Certificate with the new operating limits, tell them to show you where
>> it says you
> have
>> to this. I don't believe they can do it.
>>
>>
>> >From: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
>> >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Restrictions
>> >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:25:56 -0600
>> >
>> >--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
>> >
>> >Uh, gee, my CJ was certified in the post-moratorium era when there
>> was no common language. It is "Experimental-Exhibition/Air racing"
>> with fairly benign restrictions. Of course the category is the reason
>> why I race it...
>> >
>> >I plan on moving from the Chicago FSDO area this year to the Tampa
>> area so I need to dig out those old posts to see how others did it
>> without getting hosed by some FSDO type protecting the world against
>> Communism.
>> >
>> >So did someone say that the list was useless???
>> >
>> >Craig Payne
>> >
>> >A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>> > >
>> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
>> <adsavar@gte.net>
>> > >
>> > > I agree "Other" is not an Experimental classification. However it
>> IS
> a
>> > > Group classification (Group IV) under Experimental Exhibition
>> which is
>> >where
>> > > our CJ6's and YAK52's fall (Group III). That is what I was
>> referring
>> >to in
>> > > previous posts.
>> > > Dennis Savarese
>> >======================================================================
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
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