Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:53 AM - Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, (Brian Lloyd)
2. 06:04 AM - Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A (Mike McCoy)
3. 07:12 AM - One less Sukhoi (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 07:26 AM - Re: One less Sukhoi (Interavia SP-95) (Mark Schrick)
5. 07:48 AM - Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A (Michael Di Marco)
6. 08:51 AM - Dennis (Ernest Martinez)
7. 11:45 AM - Insurance (Alan Cockrell)
8. 12:01 PM - Insurance?? Who is working with the YPA group (Mark Schrick)
9. 05:48 PM - Re: Insurance?? Who is working with the YPA group (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 05:54 PM - Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A (Brian Lloyd)
11. 07:40 PM - Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A (Craig Payne)
12. 07:56 PM - Believe it or not... (Drew Blahnick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Walt Lannon wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
>
> Brian et al;
> Gear and flap limit speeds for the T34 are 110 Kts for both. This is taken
> from the USN NATOPS Flight Manual for the T34B, NAV AIR 01-90KDB-1. I don't
> have the equivalent USAF T.O. or a copy of the Type Certificate Data Sheet
> at hand.
Navy-provided information is certainly good enough for me.
> There are structural similarities, gear door sizes, etc. that would indicate
> a reasonable match to the CJ for the gear limit. Door attachment is somewhat
> better on the T34.
Better on the T-34? I have never looked at one closely enough to discern the
difference.
> The flap however bears no relationship whatsoever to the CJ. The CJ has a
> split flap very similar to the T6/SNJ/Harvard which is very shallow in depth
> and is open on one surface. The T34 is a Fowler type flap which is fully
> enclosed, of considerably greater depth and therefore capable of
> withstanding greater torsional loading.
> In addition the T34 flap is track mounted offering much increased load
> distribution over the single point support of the CJ. The T6 flap load is
> also well distributed over the span by push rods spaced at approx. 16".
Hmmm, thank you. The flap speed we have been using, 108 kts, is close to the
110 kts you specify. The low gear speed surprises me. Both my Aztec and my
Comanche have gear speeds of 150 mph (130 kts). The gear door structure of the
Comanche seem substantially flimsier than that of the CJ. OTOH, I don't have
anything to measure against.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
OK, OK! I'll answer this (and probably be sorry that I did).
First of all, I don't know anything about these "knots". Commie airplanes
use kilometers per hour!
Fred was told by the Chi-com military that the max gear speed was 250
kilometers per hour and the maximum flap speed was 200 kilometers per hour.
In a normal pattern, I put the gear down at 220 kilometers per hour and the
flaps down at 170 kilometers per hour. In reality, even these numbers are
conservative. I have occasionally had a gear come out inadvertently (due to
adjustment issues, lock problems, etc) during test flying at speeds well in
excess of 300 kilometers per hour and at nearly 6 G's. (At Yakity Yaks, we
test fly all of our airplanes through their entire G-range, speed range, and
aerobatic maneuver list prior to the customer receiving the airplane).
Anyway, even though a gear has come out at these extreme speeds and
g-forces, I have never seen any damage what-so-ever to the gear, gear doors,
or any other structure.
In addition, I certainly would not pretend that the numbers for the CJ6A are
the same as the T-34 (or any other airplane). These are 2 completely
different airplanes. I am very surprised that the "designer" of the
airplane can't come up with better information than to say that the CJ6A has
similar numbers to an American airplane that he may or may not be familiar
with. As for the "CJ flight manual", it's full of garbage as far as I can
tell. I can't verify its origin and I don't believe that much of the
information contained in it is accurate.
On another subject, I am continually surprised by the lack of concern for
safety by the frequent typers on this list. If you were actually concerned
for your fellow pilots, then you'd be putting peer pressure on the weaker
pilots to be safe instead of facilitating their dangerous behavior. You
will note that I predicted the recent accident that was posted on the Yak
List. In addition, I know that at least one very prominent checkpilot of
the YPA contacted this individual in the past to express his concern for
this pilot's behavior. This accident was entirely predictable and more
needless accidents will surely follow UNLESS we get serious about safety.
Also, the frequent typers on this list do NOT represent the majority of the
CJ community. I receive frequent e-mails and phone calls from the silent
majority who express shock at the lack of safety and discipline by the few.
The majority of CJ owners are good pilots with an excellent safety record.
The few weak sticks in our community make us all look bad. You will be
seeing this in your insurance premiums in the future.
I received an e-mail from a CJ pilot a few days ago who has had his
insurance go from $2,400 per year (high hull value) to $4,800 per year. He
has a perfect safety record and AIG is his underwriter. If AIG is doubling
the insurance premiums, then maybe yours will be next.
Mike (a few bad apples will ruin it for everyone) McCoy
Mike McCoy
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
I watch a man die on Saturday. He had maybe 2 seconds to realize he was
about to hit the ground. Myself and a bunch of other flyers feared it was
coming sooner than that. I had watched him doing two performances during
this show. They looked flawless and safe and I believe he was wavered to the
lowest level. At least his routine took him down to 100'.
In the end it didn't really have to be. This was pickup performance,
something thought up an hour or two before. Something different. Does that
ring a bell?
There was one of those jet power funny cars. Zero to 350 mph in 3 seconds.
They decided they were going to race. The Sukhoi started a speed run with
the car sitting on the runway ready to light off as the plane came abeam of
him. However the engine on the car didn't light off and the Sukhoi sped
passed. The pilot seeing this pulled up in what looked like an oblique
Immelman. As he got to the 180, the funny car's engine cut in. For some
reason I had not taken my eyes off the airplane. I could tell the moment the
pilot saw the car go, he rolled steeper and pulled harder. After about a 45
degree change in heading, the airplane's nose is maybe 30 degrees off the
vertical down and in a 60 degree bank. He is about 150 feet in the air. I
do believe at that point, he was a dead man.
He continues pull though. The airplane was changing attitude at a rate that
seem like it would make it, but I could see that it's actual arch was much
wider and would hit the ground. About 30 feet in the air, the pilot must
have saw it coming and pulled harder and hit an accelerated stall, because
the rate of pitch change stopped. The airplane's attitude when he hit was
slight left bank (<20 degrees) and nose down about 10 degrees. It just
stopped dead. From point of impact to wreckage was 5 feet. No fire, just a
big chuck of muck from where he hit, flung 30 to 40 feet ahead of him. The
engine had broke off and gone under the airplane.
This was high time guy folks. A professional. And from what I saw of him
and his friends, a nice person. If this scares some of you, that's good. I
considered this guy "good" and it has scared me, because I know what he was
trying to do. Save the act for the crowed. Running scared is how the human
race has survived.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 4
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| Subject: | One less Sukhoi (Interavia SP-95) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Schrick <schrick@pacbell.net>
Jim,
Thank you for the report. We all should remember that this is a serious
hobby and we should all look out for each other. The aircraft was a 1995
Interavia SP-95 or known as a E-3 later. It did have the M-14P (360 HP)
engine and was stressed to +12/-9 G's and 5 spars. What happened here was
not the aircraft.
Be safe out there.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: One less Sukhoi
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
I watch a man die on Saturday. He had maybe 2 seconds to realize he was
about to hit the ground. Myself and a bunch of other flyers feared it was
coming sooner than that. I had watched him doing two performances during
this show. They looked flawless and safe and I believe he was wavered to
the
lowest level. At least his routine took him down to 100'.
In the end it didn't really have to be. This was pickup performance,
something thought up an hour or two before. Something different. Does that
ring a bell?
There was one of those jet power funny cars. Zero to 350 mph in 3 seconds.
They decided they were going to race. The Sukhoi started a speed run with
the car sitting on the runway ready to light off as the plane came abeam of
him. However the engine on the car didn't light off and the Sukhoi sped
passed. The pilot seeing this pulled up in what looked like an oblique
Immelman. As he got to the 180, the funny car's engine cut in. For some
reason I had not taken my eyes off the airplane. I could tell the moment
the
pilot saw the car go, he rolled steeper and pulled harder. After about a 45
degree change in heading, the airplane's nose is maybe 30 degrees off the
vertical down and in a 60 degree bank. He is about 150 feet in the air. I
do believe at that point, he was a dead man.
He continues pull though. The airplane was changing attitude at a rate that
seem like it would make it, but I could see that it's actual arch was much
wider and would hit the ground. About 30 feet in the air, the pilot must
have saw it coming and pulled harder and hit an accelerated stall, because
the rate of pitch change stopped. The airplane's attitude when he hit was
slight left bank (<20 degrees) and nose down about 10 degrees. It just
stopped dead. From point of impact to wreckage was 5 feet. No fire, just a
big chuck of muck from where he hit, flung 30 to 40 feet ahead of him. The
engine had broke off and gone under the airplane.
This was high time guy folks. A professional. And from what I saw of him
and his friends, a nice person. If this scares some of you, that's good. I
considered this guy "good" and it has scared me, because I know what he was
trying to do. Save the act for the crowed. Running scared is how the human
race has survived.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Michael Di Marco <mgdimarco@yahoo.com>
I personally use 200 and 170 (150 preferred) kpc for gear and flap respectively.
One suggested comparisons on other aircraft and there relative door size/structure.
That is one of the factors that goes into gear speeds. Attach structure,
motive force available and airstream changes over flight controls are others.
Extended speeds can be higher than extension or retraction speeds. Retraction
and extension speeds can differ as well.
The best source is those who originally designed and flew the airplane.....the
Chicoms. Maybe someone over there can verify the information exchanged here.
Mike Di Marco
China Blue
---------------------------------
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" <Ernest.Martinez@oracle.com>
Dennis,
I've been receiving your emails to me on another address which I cannot reply from.
Please contact me at this email re: strut tool.
Thanks
Ernie
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Alan Cockrell <YakDriver@comcast.net>
The insurance on our Yak-52 is up for renewal and we want to shop around. Please
send any recommendations to my partner George Myers at ggm2@daimlerchrysler.com
Thanks
Alan Cockrell
Message 8
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| Subject: | Insurance?? Who is working with the YPA group |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Schrick <schrick@pacbell.net>
Alan,
The only person I would call that is an OWNER / PILOT of a very nice YAK 52
and YPA member
is Tom Johnson of Cannon Aviation Insurance. Call him, you will get the
straight scoop and NO BS.
Tom Johnson
1983 Yak 52, N524TJ
Senior Account Executive
Cannon Aviation Insurance
Tel: 800-851-2997
Fax: 480-951-1455
Cell: 602-628-2701
I also read this morning about HIGH INSURANCE. Please before we get into
raised prices and higher rates we need to know all the facts. I have seen
people that own a A36 Bonanza then place their Yak on the SPAM CAN insurance
policy. This gives you a much higher rate. Cannon Aviation is set up for
WARBIRDS and gives the opportunity to provide discounts if you continue to
take training, attend YPA events, ALL REDSTAR, FAST, ect.......
My insurance on all three of my planes are respectable price wise with
advise in advance of my renewal with Tom Johnson on what is needed to lower
my insurance or better position myself for lower premiums. I am not saying
everyone can get lower rates (time, time in type, experience,
training...)but what I am saying is do not wait until the last minute to
shop and be proactive in your questions and your training.
Good luck and be safe out there.............
Mark Schrick
Yak 52
San Jose, Ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alan Cockrell
Subject: Yak-List: Insurance
--> Yak-List message posted by: Alan Cockrell <YakDriver@comcast.net>
The insurance on our Yak-52 is up for renewal and we want to shop around.
Please send any recommendations to my partner George Myers at
ggm2@daimlerchrysler.com
Thanks
Alan Cockrell
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance?? Who is working with the YPA group |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
I second the motion. I also insure through Tom and Tom's the guy that got
my YAK 52 maintenance training course approved for a premium discount.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrick" <schrick@pacbell.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Insurance?? Who is working with the YPA group
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Schrick <schrick@pacbell.net>
>
> Alan,
>
> The only person I would call that is an OWNER / PILOT of a very nice YAK
52
> and YPA member
> is Tom Johnson of Cannon Aviation Insurance. Call him, you will get the
> straight scoop and NO BS.
>
> Tom Johnson
> 1983 Yak 52, N524TJ
> Senior Account Executive
> Cannon Aviation Insurance
> Tel: 800-851-2997
> Fax: 480-951-1455
> Cell: 602-628-2701
>
> I also read this morning about HIGH INSURANCE. Please before we get into
> raised prices and higher rates we need to know all the facts. I have seen
> people that own a A36 Bonanza then place their Yak on the SPAM CAN
insurance
> policy. This gives you a much higher rate. Cannon Aviation is set up for
> WARBIRDS and gives the opportunity to provide discounts if you continue to
> take training, attend YPA events, ALL REDSTAR, FAST, ect.......
>
> My insurance on all three of my planes are respectable price wise with
> advise in advance of my renewal with Tom Johnson on what is needed to
lower
> my insurance or better position myself for lower premiums. I am not saying
> everyone can get lower rates (time, time in type, experience,
> training...)but what I am saying is do not wait until the last minute to
> shop and be proactive in your questions and your training.
>
> Good luck and be safe out there.............
>
> Mark Schrick
> Yak 52
> San Jose, Ca
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alan Cockrell
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Insurance
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Alan Cockrell <YakDriver@comcast.net>
>
> The insurance on our Yak-52 is up for renewal and we want to shop around.
> Please send any recommendations to my partner George Myers at
> ggm2@daimlerchrysler.com
>
> Thanks
> Alan Cockrell
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Mike McCoy wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> OK, OK! I'll answer this (and probably be sorry that I did).
>
> First of all, I don't know anything about these "knots". Commie airplanes
> use kilometers per hour!
And real pilots are smart enough to use any instrument indication and are able
to move between them. I have had to accommodate kph, kts, and mph in various
CJ6As I have flown. I try to get them to stick with kts or kph. Since
everything else in the US is calibrated in kts, including ATC, it seems pretty
reasonable to use that here.
> Fred was told by the Chi-com military that the max gear speed was 250
> kilometers per hour
135 kts
> and the maximum flap speed was 200 kilometers per hour.
108 kts
> In a normal pattern, I put the gear down at 220 kilometers per hour and the
> flaps down at 170 kilometers per hour. In reality, even these numbers are
> conservative.
I agree with you in general. They certainly seem so although I have seen some
cracking on the edges of the gear doors but I have attributed that to the
flexing when the doors close against the wing skin.
> In addition, I certainly would not pretend that the numbers for the CJ6A are
> the same as the T-34 (or any other airplane). These are 2 completely
> different airplanes. I am very surprised that the "designer" of the
> airplane can't come up with better information than to say that the CJ6A has
> similar numbers to an American airplane that he may or may not be familiar
> with.
Ah, but he is the designer. He is as close to an oracle as we are likely to
get. Now you have in the past taken people to task for "making things up" and
you have made a point of adhering to the chinese "standards". What is more
"standard" than the word of the aircraft designer?
> As for the "CJ flight manual", it's full of garbage as far as I can
> tell. I can't verify its origin and I don't believe that much of the
> information contained in it is accurate.
It doesn't blow my skirt up either but it is a Chinese document on the aircraft.
Again, how do we pick and choose our oracles?
Or are you now saying that we can evaluate things and accept or deny based on
our own experiences and our own evaluation of the aircraft? Seems to me you
took me to task for that in the past. Unfortunately we can't have it both ways,
i.e. adherence to the Chinese standards or figuring it out for ourselves.
> On another subject, I am continually surprised by the lack of concern for
> safety by the frequent typers on this list. If you were actually concerned
> for your fellow pilots, then you'd be putting peer pressure on the weaker
> pilots to be safe instead of facilitating their dangerous behavior.
I am not aware of a single person on this list who disregards safety or
facilitates anyone's "dangerous behavior." Everyone I know is interested in
safety and safe flying. To suggest oterwise does us all a disservice.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: gear and flap speeds for CJ6A |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Craig Payne <cpayne@mc.net>
Mike,
Which CJ Flight Manual are you referring to? I have one that Doug Sapp
obtained from the Military Publishing House of the Chinese People's
Liberation Army and is entitled "Type-6 Primary Trainer", "Pilot's
Flight Manual".
It has 155 pages with 6 Chapters:
1. Traffic Pattern Flight
2. Aerobatic Flight
3. Formation Flight
4. Hooded Flight
5. Pilot Navigation
6. Emergency Procedures.
Does Yakity Yaks offer a different publication?
Craig Payne
>
> Mike McCoy wrote:
>
> > As for the "CJ flight manual", it's full of garbage as far as I can
> > tell. I can't verify its origin and I don't believe that much of the
> > information contained in it is accurate.
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Believe it or not... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <Drew@allredstar.com>
Folks,
This ATC conversation occured last Thursday near Fresno while I flew formation
in my CJ with Barry in his twin commander heading to Castle for our site survey
and meeting with the suits, I kid you not with this. The controller was assisting
us in our in-trail BVR rejoin as I had departed 20 minutes ahead of Barry,
all I can say is this guy must be reading Sport Aviation or one of the other
rags we've ended up in;
ATC: Yak 56TR say destination
Castle, Mike-Echo-Romeo
ATC: Hey, you guys heading to the Oshkosh of the west?
long pause...
Barry: You wouldn't mean the Red Star event in May would you?
ATC: Yea thats it...
So on tac freq we decided to shore up a pattern controller position we needed,
so we came back on and invited him to attend and help out...
I kid you not, the power of participation...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ACM: For the left coasters, I spoke with Harry Hirshman who is heading up the
ACM clinic and we are recruiting several military instructors, the goal being
to insure if you sign up for this block, we will have staffing to accomodate you.
The course is a min of two rides, concentrating on safety and standardized
procedures, along with Tactical Formation.
Aerobatics: We have a well known aerobatics school coming out from Livermore,
Attitude Aviation, as well as other guest help. One of the owners of the school
will be giving a briefing and will have instructors available for flight instruction.
YPA FAST Clinic: Returns as always. As with other flying blocks, we will have
those big white grease boards for flight scheduling this year...
Flight Safety: We have Allen Silvers returning and he still plans to bailout of
a CJ as long as the FAA and Airfield mgmnt can handle it. Flight Suits Inc. is
considering attending to speak on, you guessed it, flight suits and helmets.
Maintenaince: Vladimir on airframe and engines, Jack Flagler on dynamic prop balancing
and crankshaft vibration testing, American Propeller on anything MT,
Steve Kalmer on jet engines/airframe and jet transition training...
Hotels and cars: As Tony Soprano says, "Fugget-a-bout-it", we take care of that
and no need to rent a car. Yes, we improved the blanket situation too ;)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We would like to see as much online registration as possible, I realize we all
are glued to the war, and we should be, drop by www.allredstar.com and check out
the event, register if you are coming, Barry has posted a 10% savings and T-Shirt
to those prepaying before March 31st.
Take care all, fly safe! See ya next month...
Drew Allen Blahnick
All Red Stars
Cell310-386-9181
www.allredstar.com
"Communism: Lousy Politics - Great Airplanes"
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