Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:16 AM - ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH (JAmund1009@aol.com)
2. 12:27 AM - In defence of Andrew Zheng (William Scully)
3. 05:21 AM - Bill Scully, David Strawn's airplane (Brian Lloyd)
4. 05:21 AM - "new" airplane certification (Brian Lloyd)
5. 05:47 AM - Re: ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH (A. Dennis Savarese)
6. 05:59 AM - Re: ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 06:05 AM - discount CJ's (Mike McCoy)
8. 06:23 AM - Re: discount CJ's (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 06:33 AM - Re: discount CJ's (Brian Lloyd)
10. 06:40 AM - Re: In defence of Andrew Zheng (Ray P. Stallings)
11. 06:57 AM - voltage regulator (joe h)
12. 07:06 AM - Re: discount CJ's (Ray P. Stallings)
13. 07:15 AM - Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)HOW ABOUT YOU? (Andrew Zheng \(China\))
14. 07:19 AM - Refinancing (Jim Shanks)
15. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (BUTLER, FRANCIS)
16. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (Brian Lloyd)
17. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (Brian Lloyd)
18. 08:17 AM - Re: discount CJ's (Ray P. Stallings)
19. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (Mike McCoy)
20. 08:29 AM - Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come (Brian Lloyd)
21. 08:45 AM - Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)HOW ABOUT YOU? (Andrew Zheng \(China\))
22. 08:52 AM - Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)HOW ABOUT YOU? (Dave Laird)
23. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (BUTLER, FRANCIS)
24. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (BUTLER, FRANCIS)
25. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (Ray P. Stallings)
26. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (Ray P. Stallings)
27. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Re: discount CJ's (Brian Lloyd)
28. 12:29 PM - Re: voltage regulator (Doug)
29. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (Doug)
30. 01:00 PM - FW: [Acro] Assn's letter to Bush re Meigs (Coffey, John)
31. 01:01 PM - FW: [Acro] A BIG pricetag for Meigs closing (Coffey, John)
32. 01:51 PM - JN Trading (Greg and Amy Medford)
33. 02:00 PM - Free Information (Bob Monzo)
34. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: discount CJ's (Brian Lloyd)
35. 03:47 PM - Re: FW: [Acro] A BIG pricetag for Meigs closing (William Halverson)
36. 05:07 PM - Yak-List Re: discount CJ's (Mike McCoy)
37. 05:10 PM - generator (Lou Dakos)
38. 05:36 PM - Re: Bill Scully, David Strawn's airplane (Dave Strawn)
39. 07:18 PM - Re: elevator balancing (Walt Lannon)
40. 07:44 PM - (jackron@att.net)
41. 09:58 PM - Map Rooms update (Barry Hancock)
Message 1
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| Subject: | ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH |
--> Yak-List message posted by: JAmund1009@aol.com
Gentlemen/Ladies:
I am looking for someone to perform the annual condition inspection on my
YAK-52. I am based at the W.K. Kellogg Airport in Battle Creek, Michigan.
Carl Schels has done all previous inspections but is no longer doing them due
to the demands of his business. I can travel a reasonable distance and assist
where needed.
I would also like to join the group for the Oshkosh event. Does anyone have
the names and phone numbers for motels in Manitowac? I am retired Air Force
and have a FAST card issued by the Warbirds of America. I flew the Bearcat in
CAT Flight for the Kalamazoo Air Zoo. Would like to do some intensive
formation work so I don't get too rusty. After lurking on the List for some
time I look forward to meeting all of you and connecting faces to many of the
names I keep seeing there.
Thanks in advance! John Amundson
Message 2
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| Subject: | In defence of Andrew Zheng |
--> Yak-List message posted by: William Scully <billscully_99@yahoo.com>
My name is Bill Scully & I've been silent until now, but , since my name has come
up several times, I feel that I should comment. 1st.,let me say that I have
worked for JN ( Andrew & Jennifer ) assembling & certing CJs, and hope to continue
this work.
Ray S.- you asked (twice) what happened to the a/c that I was supposed
to get for my work. I answered you off-list that I had made a deal on the next
batch of a/c - not the current bunch. My arrangement with Andrew was to cert
one CJ & assist buyers with the rest, for a set sum. Since I was unfamiliar
with the amount of work involved in the entire cert process, this was not a good
deal for me but , a deal's a deal, so I just keep working until all the little
problems were corrected & cert completed.( Most of the items your mech. listed,
I simpley repaired & continued on ) Tail feathers excluded.
Some times we make deals that don't trun out in our favor - that's
just the way it is. I don't blame Andrew for the amountof work that had to be
done, he didn't know ; & I didn't specify " cost-plus" in my deal. As it turned
out , Andrew gave me an additional $1k because he felt he should- I didn't
ask for this money- & Andrew didn't have to give it.
Our deal, was that - I put together & cert several of the next bunch
in exchange for an airplane, but, because of our fathers in the FAA, it took
me an additional 4 mos. to get the OK to fly from EMT.Andrew couldn't hold
up the next shipment, so - that shipment went to Selby.
I never worked on any of those a/c & never got (earned ) my CJ -- That
should answer for all " what happened to Bill Scully's CJ "
Ray, I feel that you & perhaps the Selbys, may have "issues" with JN ,but
I don't think you should bad-mouth Andrew , every chance you get-- you had your
choice of a/c, remember ? and you changed your airplane just before pick-up.
Just so happened to work out poorly for you. I still feel that if you had
approached Andrew differently, things would have gone better for you.
Brian- I certed David's a/c & you picked it up @ VYN - what -in -the-world
are you talking about motor cycle batteries ???? I properly installed a Gill
G-35 24 v batt. in that airplane. I soudered terminal ends on both leads &
insulated the cut -outs in the batt. box. Batt was low ( sat in paint shop 4 mos.)
& Lee B. charged it so that you could take off in AM. Ask Lee what batt was
in that a/c. Maybe you just forgot. You then say the encoder showed 150 ft.
error. Brian, my friend, there was no xpdr/encoder IN THE AIRPLANE. Better take
a memory pill. I believe however , that I should have cleaned out the pitot
sym after it came out of the paint shop, because of the sanding dust & overspray.
My mistake- - but Randy did that , I suppose after he "opened " the sym
to install the encoder.
About David's eng- - was flown 5 hrs total- then to VYN for paint. {
after Ist hour , had to o/h oil cooler,}
but , no other problems. All air valves functioned perfectly- I added a little
air motor oil to the sym , but, Randy was correct, I didn't remove & clean shuttle
valves. I inspected the brake cables but didn't find any damage--- a year
later, you say a cable broke. You say an oil leak developed on your flt to Livermore
- loose cyl base nut ? as I asked Randy, why not retorque the nuts, saftey
& run to leak-ck the eng.?I can understand Randy , not knowing where this
eng came from, decided to tear it down & know for sure. Anderw supplied all
the seals/gaskets & when repairs were completed informed Andrew that the eng was
running fine.
Just where does Andrew's responsebilites end.??? I assembled this a/c, I certed
it,my Name & lic. # is in the logbook. David should have contacted me about the
problem & I would have done all that I could to correct it.
Hey Brain-- you are indeed, a man of courage. With all of your experience ,
knowing that as little as 2ozs. of oil can damage an eng., you admit the hyd.
lock. My hat is off to you. BUT - what do you mean-your one experience with JN
aircraft- you must have flown several- one I know of is Barry's. Why not say
- the only negative experience etc.? And the paint-- Andrew didn't even know
the painter, so, what's with that ???
Mark Schrick - you say "let's be fair" but you seem much more willing to accept
one side of the story than the other. Ernie - before you suggest blackballing
a vendor, maybe you shuold see the contracts or agreements signed by both parties.
You are correct Mark in stating that "facts speek louder than words" but
, whose facts ???
It seemed perfectly OK for Andrew to be insulted, but when he ( out of necessity
) tries to defend himself, then you guys want to "take it off list ". Why not
jump on these people as soon as they start. Craig Payne- I believe you were
the only person to say this as soon as it started- good for you.
I believe you all to be fair-minded people, some I know , some I wish to know.
To all I say , I have never known Andrew to knowning sell a dangerous or broken/unsafe
a/c. He may have been unaware of problems with some of his a/c but he
is trying hard to gain that knowledge.
---------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Bill Scully, David Strawn's airplane |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Bill,
Thank you for refreshing my memory. It has been a long time.
Battery: you very well could be right that it was a single battery. I remember
thinking that the wiring run was pretty ugly and poorly thought-out. The
non-workmanship-like manner in which the wiring was put in place is what
bothered me.
Transponder: I remember now that the aircraft had no nav-com when I picked it up
(I used my handheld) so it is clear that I am thinking of the post radio
installation check flight.
But the pitot-static system was full of water. It is a kick to see an ASI
decrease as the airplane declerated and then *increase* again as it approached
stall. I can't imagine you checked it or it would have been obvious that there
was a problem. Anyone else who flew the aircraft and performed a stall would
have seen the same thing. This is no big deal for someone who has a fair amount
of time in the aircraft and knows how it feels near the stall but very much not
good for a new pilot in the aircraft. It makes me wonder what was done during
the sign-off of Phase-I since it seems pretty obvious that no one verified
instrument readings or if they did, they ignored the errors.
And the cylinders were coming off the engine. I guess that could have happened
in the 2 hour flight back to Cameron Park but I suspect that something was
already going on before I took the airplane. I have a fair amount of knowledge
and experience with airplanes but checking the cylinder base nut torque values
is not something I normally do during a preflight inspection of the aircraft.
It *is* something I would do in a complete inspection of an aircraft prior to
certification.
And there were problems with the pneumatic system that had to be remedied due to
the poor state of maintenance.
The bottom line has not changed tho'. I was given an airplane that you had
worked on and claimed to be airworthy. It had valid documentation. It became
apparent on the flight to CP that the aircraft might not be in the condition
represented before departure. Further examination showed that the airplane
clearly was *NOT* airworthy and you guys had potentially put my life at
jeopardy. Now you either did it through ignorance or you intentionally
misrepresented the airplane. If I were you I would claim ignorance as that
probably reduces your liability and it can be remedied.
<sigh> I don't want a fight. I am sorry I let my simmering anger get me into
this discussion. I was a put off by the state of the aircraft when I ended that
flight. I was frustrated by all the work that had to be done to get the
airplane ready to do training with its owner. I feel sorry for David in that he
bought an airplane he really hasn't been able to fly. I will grant that
everything probably appeared OK when I took the airplane. I don't think these
problem would have occured with Yakity Yaks, Bill Blackwell, Randy Thorne, or
the Selbys.
Caveat Emptor.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 4
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| Subject: | "new" airplane certification |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
The discussion re Andrew Zhang makes something painfully clear: there is no
standardization for putting a "new" CJ6A into service in the US. The same may
be true for Yaks but it doesn't seem to be the same problem.
The CJ6As that arrive in the US are of widely varying quality ranging from new
to total junk. There needs to be some way to determine the real airworthiness
state of an airplane before it goes out the door. To me this means the following:
1. a standardized check-list of inspection items to put the aircraft into service;
2. a cadre of mechanics/inspectors who are intimately familiar with the
aircraft who can perform inspections and verify the condition of the airplane.
This seems to me to be a good project for the YPA. I know the above exists
withing the various organizations, i.e. Yakity Yaks, Bill Blackwell, etc., but
it is not generally available outside of those organizations. I also expect
that discussions between organizations will result in cross-polinization that
will improve the performance of ALL the maintenance/repair orgs.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
John,
I have forwarded your email posting to Steve Beaver who lives in Columbus,
OH and asked him to contact you if he's interested in doing an inspection on
your 52. Steve's an expert on 52's and since he's so close, it would
probably work out very well for you.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: <JAmund1009@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH
> --> Yak-List message posted by: JAmund1009@aol.com
>
> Gentlemen/Ladies:
>
> I am looking for someone to perform the annual condition inspection on my
> YAK-52. I am based at the W.K. Kellogg Airport in Battle Creek, Michigan.
> Carl Schels has done all previous inspections but is no longer doing them
due
> to the demands of his business. I can travel a reasonable distance and
assist
> where needed.
>
> I would also like to join the group for the Oshkosh event. Does anyone
have
> the names and phone numbers for motels in Manitowac? I am retired Air
Force
> and have a FAST card issued by the Warbirds of America. I flew the Bearcat
in
> CAT Flight for the Kalamazoo Air Zoo. Would like to do some intensive
> formation work so I don't get too rusty. After lurking on the List for
some
> time I look forward to meeting all of you and connecting faces to many of
the
> names I keep seeing there.
>
> Thanks in advance! John Amundson
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Steve's is and A&P of course.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> John,
> I have forwarded your email posting to Steve Beaver who lives in Columbus,
> OH and asked him to contact you if he's interested in doing an inspection
on
> your 52. Steve's an expert on 52's and since he's so close, it would
> probably work out very well for you.
> Dennis Savarese
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <JAmund1009@aol.com>
> To: <YAK-LIST@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: ANNUAL INSPECTION & OSHKOSH
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: JAmund1009@aol.com
> >
> > Gentlemen/Ladies:
> >
> > I am looking for someone to perform the annual condition inspection on
my
> > YAK-52. I am based at the W.K. Kellogg Airport in Battle Creek,
Michigan.
> > Carl Schels has done all previous inspections but is no longer doing
them
> due
> > to the demands of his business. I can travel a reasonable distance and
> assist
> > where needed.
> >
> > I would also like to join the group for the Oshkosh event. Does anyone
> have
> > the names and phone numbers for motels in Manitowac? I am retired Air
> Force
> > and have a FAST card issued by the Warbirds of America. I flew the
Bearcat
> in
> > CAT Flight for the Kalamazoo Air Zoo. Would like to do some intensive
> > formation work so I don't get too rusty. After lurking on the List for
> some
> > time I look forward to meeting all of you and connecting faces to many
of
> the
> > names I keep seeing there.
> >
> > Thanks in advance! John Amundson
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Gang,
I have just a few quick points regarding buying CJ's:
1. You get what you pay for! Anyone paying bargain basement prices is
getting a project and should know that. Normally, these airplanes will have
to be completely restored costing tens on thousands of dollars just to be
airworthy and THEN you will still need radios, paint, canopy glass, tires,
etc. It is almost always cheaper to spend the extra money up front and get
a quality airplane. Yakity Yaks guarantees that everything in our airplanes
work and we stand behind our airplanes.
2. You can't properly assemble, inspect, and test fly one of these airplanes
in a willy-nilly fashion and expect everything to turn out right. There are
a bunch on people on this list that have "saved" a few thousand dollars by
buying a "bargain" airplane, only to subsequently have a accident or
incident due to improper assembly, inspection, and training. I know of at
least two people who had the gear collapse on one of these bargain basement
airplanes. I know of one that the new fabric fell off on the trip home and
another one where the fabric fell off later during an aerobatic flight. I
know of several of these airplanes that had junk engines installed and they
failed with the new owner inflight. I could go on and on (and on and on).
Each of these people would have saved thousands of dollars (not to mention
higher insurance rates) and embarrassment by buying a quality CJ from a
quality dealer.
3. Yakity Yaks only buys truly overhauled airplanes (with first time
overhauled engines) from the Chinese military and THEN we still use a 50
page checklist to assemble and inspect every airplane. We also use a
written flight test plan to test the airplanes through their full flight
envelope. Every airplane is totally right before the customer flies it
away.
4. Finally, you get what you pay for! (did I mention that before?) Yakity
Yaks PAYS more for our aircraft that these bargain basement dealers are
SELLING their aircraft for. As Brian said, there is nothing wrong with
buying a "project", at project prices, but it isn't cheaper than buying a
good airplane to start with.
Mike McCoy
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Excellent post Mike and I completely agree. Goes ditto for YAK 52's! You
really do get what you pay for!
Thanks for making point.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Subject: Yak-List: discount CJ's
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Gang,
>
> I have just a few quick points regarding buying CJ's:
>
> 1. You get what you pay for! Anyone paying bargain basement prices is
> getting a project and should know that. Normally, these airplanes will
have
> to be completely restored costing tens on thousands of dollars just to be
> airworthy and THEN you will still need radios, paint, canopy glass, tires,
> etc. It is almost always cheaper to spend the extra money up front and
get
> a quality airplane. Yakity Yaks guarantees that everything in our
airplanes
> work and we stand behind our airplanes.
>
> 2. You can't properly assemble, inspect, and test fly one of these
airplanes
> in a willy-nilly fashion and expect everything to turn out right. There
are
> a bunch on people on this list that have "saved" a few thousand dollars by
> buying a "bargain" airplane, only to subsequently have a accident or
> incident due to improper assembly, inspection, and training. I know of at
> least two people who had the gear collapse on one of these bargain
basement
> airplanes. I know of one that the new fabric fell off on the trip home
and
> another one where the fabric fell off later during an aerobatic flight. I
> know of several of these airplanes that had junk engines installed and
they
> failed with the new owner inflight. I could go on and on (and on and on).
> Each of these people would have saved thousands of dollars (not to mention
> higher insurance rates) and embarrassment by buying a quality CJ from a
> quality dealer.
>
> 3. Yakity Yaks only buys truly overhauled airplanes (with first time
> overhauled engines) from the Chinese military and THEN we still use a 50
> page checklist to assemble and inspect every airplane. We also use a
> written flight test plan to test the airplanes through their full flight
> envelope. Every airplane is totally right before the customer flies it
> away.
>
> 4. Finally, you get what you pay for! (did I mention that before?)
Yakity
> Yaks PAYS more for our aircraft that these bargain basement dealers are
> SELLING their aircraft for. As Brian said, there is nothing wrong with
> buying a "project", at project prices, but it isn't cheaper than buying a
> good airplane to start with.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Mike McCoy wrote:
> THEN we still use a 50
> page checklist to assemble and inspect every airplane. We also use a
> written flight test plan to test the airplanes through their full flight
> envelope.
That is what it takes to do it right.
> 4. Finally, you get what you pay for! (did I mention that before?) Yakity
> Yaks PAYS more for our aircraft that these bargain basement dealers are
> SELLING their aircraft for. As Brian said, there is nothing wrong with
> buying a "project", at project prices, but it isn't cheaper than buying a
> good airplane to start with.
Gee Mike, we agree totally on something! Wow, this probably calls for a
celebratory beer or something.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: In defence of Andrew Zheng |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
Bill,
I thought you had dropped off the face of the Earth. I never received any
of the off-list messages you say you sent. I have tried writing you
numerous times over the past couple of years and my mail always comes back
as undeliverable.
I don't know how I could have handled anything differently. When I first
found the wing bolt problems, I contacted them by telephone. Jennifer said
they would take care of the problem and would call me back [that day]. Fair
enough. Days pass and I don't hear anything. I call again and again but
get nothing but the answering machine. OK, I start faxing and emailing them
for info. Nothing. I think I even contacted you to see if you could be of
any assistance. After weeks of not hearing anything and finding more
obviously defective and junk parts on my airplane every day, it became
obvious what their game was. The game, of course, was bait and switch.
Bait with claims of a freshly retired airplane that has just undergone a
thorough inspection and overhaul and switch to an airframe that has had
almost every valuable part robbed from it and replaced with parts that have
been sitting who-knows-where for who-knows-how-long. They tried to pull the
same gig that day I came out to L.A. to see the airplanes. Andrew had the
airplane with the two wings that came off two different (old) airplanes.
Oh, he forgot to mention that little fact. As I recall, those wings both
had MUCH older serial numbers than the rest of the airframe (just like my
tail feathers, except he apparently didn't have time to paint fake matching
numbers on them like he did on my tail). I cannot believe he expected me to
buy that airplane from him! No way! Who knows how many additional hours
those wings had on them and what happened to the airframes they were
previously attached to? Additionally, as I recall you ran into quite a few
issues with the port wing due to the fact it still had the provisions for
the flux gate in it and the cannon plugs were completely different from the
newer models with the unit in the empennage. Bill, if you went through
those airplanes with any kind of thoroughness, you know good and well none
of them were "recently retired from flying status" and they certainly were
not "inspected and overhauled". For God's sake, Andrew showed me a video of
my engine being test run but when I got it home and opened up the belly the
oil cooler wasn't even hooked up! THEY ROBBED THE OIL COOLER AFTER THE
VIDEO WAS SHOT AND REPLACED IT WITH A LEAKY BOAT ANCHOR! That's just one
example.
Bill, you are to be commended for holding up your end of the deal. Based on
my experience (and lots of others I have spoken with) they will not hold up
their end. I know you have spent many, many hours of your time working
towards this goal. Maybe now that the whole world knows what the deal is
now, Honest Andy will be forced to come through for you.
Best of luck to you.
Ray
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | voltage regulator |
--> Yak-List message posted by: joe h <joeh@shaw.ca>
Does anyone have a serviceable ZY-1500 voltage regulator for sale (original CJ-6)
Joe Howse
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
Mike,
In order to promote every CJ owner's safety, why don't you post your 50-page
checklist on the web so others that were not so fortunate to have purchased
a Yakity-Yak airplane can benefit from your expertise? It would go a long
way towards increasing CJ standardization, promoting safety, highlighting
the shortcomings of discount dealers, and ultimately reducing insurance
costs.
Regards,
Ray Stallings
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)HOW |
ABOUT YOU?
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Andrew Zheng \(China\)" <cjcyak@163bj.com>
Dear Doug,
If you have all information for the engine,why you wanted me to find the information
from China.I called to China few times and some of my friends work for this
engine too. Were you playing me? I asked you this because I was unhappy with
this.Can I?
Why do you can say some things to me when I ask you some thing, you "jump up 10
foot higher"? Because we are some different people?
If you sale CJs parts not only for making money but also for the community,would
mind I sell parts too but my price will at least lower than yours 30%. and I
can get all parts that you have also I can get some parts you may not get in
China.
I think there is one or two more CJ parts suppliers on the market,it is good for
all CJ owners,because you can not have all parts and you can not have all parts
in stock too.How do you think?
Please say yes or "show your ugly face":).
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug
Subject: engine
Andrew,
> Is the engine without any information(no log book, no records...even don't know
where the engine come from)that you wanted to me to find out some information
from China for you.( Doug writer: I have all info on the engine and Yes it
is 1st overhaul. How do you know it is first time overhauled engine now? Only
from the log book copies which came with the engine.)
Best,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Andrew,
> I do not know what your meaning is here. Yes Dave, was talking about a
> factory new engine @ $12,500.00, but the engine turned out to be not a new
> engine but a 1st overhaul. The price was lowed to $9000.00, which is my
> regular price for a first overhaul CJ engine. Why you are worrying about my
> business I have no idea, it would seem that you have big enough problems
> yourself. I really do not want to sound ungrateful for the bit of help you
> gave me on translating the green tag on the engine, but this matter is
> really between Dave and myself and does not concern you. Should Dave be
> unhappy with this deal I would think he would do as I have suggested and
> post his unhappiness in detail on the list after he had exhausted all
> reasonable avenues to resolve the issue. Your unrelenting insistence that
> I sold this engine for $12500, and your inability to grasp the concept of
> what is correct and acceptable content for posting to the list, only make me
> believe, that you are attempting to somehow, for some reason discredit me
> with he other list members. If you wish to confirm the purchase price I
> would suggest that you do so with Dave. I am quite frankly surprised and a
> bit saddened that you would (as they say in China) "show your ugly face" on
> this matter, as you have absolutely nothing to gain here except the
> satisfaction of dragging me down. I have gone out of my way to not
> personally attack you on the list as I have no actual knowledge of your
> business dealings other than our conversations about parts, but I have and
> will always defend our right to post and read this type of information as I
> believe it make the community stronger.
>
> Again Andrew, contact me at rvfltd@televar.com if you have further
> questions or comments. Any further comments posted by you to the list about
> this matter will go unanswered by me.
>
> Best
> Doug Sapp
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Shanks" <shankeroid@attbi.com>
Looking into refinancing our CJ due to low rates. Currently our Loan is
with Zook. If anyone has their wardbird financed with anyone else, could
you please post it here or to my e-mail. Please include your satisfaction
with the bank or service. Thanks!
Jim Shanks
shankeroid@attbi.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
Why don't you take your aircraft to Mike's shop so they can perform the 50 page
check? I am sure they have developed this checklist to add value to the product
they sell. I wouldn't give away my maintenance information to competitors
in my business.
Francis Butler
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray P. Stallings [mailto:JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Re: discount CJ's
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
Mike,
In order to promote every CJ owner's safety, why don't you post your 50-page
checklist on the web so others that were not so fortunate to have purchased
a Yakity-Yak airplane can benefit from your expertise? It would go a long
way towards increasing CJ standardization, promoting safety, highlighting
the shortcomings of discount dealers, and ultimately reducing insurance
costs.
Regards,
Ray Stallings
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Ray P. Stallings wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
>
> Mike,
>
> In order to promote every CJ owner's safety, why don't you post your 50-page
> checklist on the web so others that were not so fortunate to have purchased
> a Yakity-Yak airplane can benefit from your expertise? It would go a long
> way towards increasing CJ standardization, promoting safety, highlighting
> the shortcomings of discount dealers, and ultimately reducing insurance
> costs.
Sure I would like that and so would everyone else. But how much did it cost
Mike and Yakity-Yaks to develop that list to do what they have done? That list
is valueable. If I were he I would not want to just give it away.
OTOH, yes it would help all of us and it would be a selfless act. It would go
a
long way toward helping achieve the level of consistency and safety that he has
been harping on.
And if Mike doesn't do that, we could probably get a few people on here to
create that list from scratch. There are enough people who have worked on these
things now that if they put all their knowledge in there, we would have our
checklist. Mike could just speed up the process.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
BUTLER, FRANCIS wrote:
> Why don't you take your aircraft to Mike's shop so they can perform the 50
> page check? I am sure they have developed this checklist to add value to the
> product they sell. I wouldn't give away my maintenance information to
> competitors in my business.
I understand what you are saying and I agree that it is conventional wisdom.
I once worked for an unconventional company. They made modems. There was a
usenet news group, comp.dcom.modems, that functioned very much like this mailing
list; people could ask questions or discuss modem operation and other people
would help them with their problems. A lot of email flew around the network
successfully because of the activity in that news group.
But my company, Telebit, did something different. They assigned a technician to
monitor the list and answer questions, even for a competitor's product.
Sometimes we could fix problems with our competitors' gear that they couldn't
fix because they didn't have the overall expertise we did. The result? Their
customers started coming to us because they knew we could solve their problem.
They didn't just have our word for it -- we proved it in action. Sure we gave
information away up-front but it paid dividends in the long run.
I suspect that the same would work here too. There are some people on the list
who embrace this approach, e.g. Doug Sapp, and it seems to be working for him.
Perhaps if Mike did the same thing and helped people he would get more back in
the form of customers who would make a point of making the trip to Chilocothe,
OH, because that is where the expertise is.
To someone who doesn't know you, telling them you are good doesn't help them too
much. We have examples of that. Proving you are good by providing good
information and support removes any doubt.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
Mr. Butler,
Your point is well taken, BUT, this is not (and probably should not) be
proprietary information. These are VERY simple airplanes in the grand
scheme of things. There is nothing on these airframes and/or engines that
requires any specialized training that a GOOD mech doesn't already possess.
My point to Mr. McCoy is that if he truly is concerned about furthering the
cause of safety in the CJ community, he should put his information out there
for all to take advantage of. To know where a certain problem area might
exist and to keep it a "secret" (unless you do the work) is reprehensible.
I personally spent literally months compiling all the information I could
gather on our airplanes, scanned it all to a CD-Rom, gave it away to anyone
that asked for a copy and never asked for a penny. I put my money where my
mouth is. Can you say the same?
Ray Stallings
P.S. Just so you know, publishing these checklists would not directly
benefit me in any way. My airplane is finished. I just know that there a
lots of folks that don't have the resources I had available when I restored
my airplane. They could benefit from this information and as a result, we
all will benefit by not having our insurance rates go up when a mishap
occurs like the one's Mr. McCoy outlined in his previous message.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Ray,
There are two reasons that I won't publish our 50-page checklist.
1. A great deal of work went into the checklist and I won't work for free.
We are in business to make a profit and I certainly wouldn't give away our
competitive advantage.
2. Eventually, some bozo would sue us because they weren't competent enough
to understand what was in the checklist. There is a hugh variety in the
competence of the people assembling these projects; everyone from very
competent A&Ps, to backyard bozos (some of them A&Ps and AIs) that I
wouldn't let work on my lawn tractor. For this reason, we won't even sell
the checklist - the income is not worth the liability risk. I previously
sold the Yakity Yaks pilot checklists to anyone that asked, but then had one
bozo call to complain about it because he didn't even have the basic
knowledge to properly lean his airplane. This person was taking off with
the mixture full lean even though the checklist said just the opposite.
Somehow, in this person's mind, this was the fault of the checklist!!!!!
AMAZING!!!
Unfortunately, this is a prevalent problem in the CJ6A business. I know
that Doug sold a perfectly good engine to someone who didn't have the
ability to get it running and Doug refunded the guys money, taking a big
loss. I have had similar problems in the past on parts that we sold. These
are the issues that you get into when less than competent amateurs are
assembling the airplanes, and I personally don't want any part of it.
I'm not saying that everyone that builds a project is incompetent -- in
fact, far from it. I'm quite sure that many of the people that build these
projects are quite competent. Unfortunately, it only takes one Bozo to ruin
it for everyone.
Mike McCoy
> In order to promote every CJ owner's safety, why don't you post your
50-page
> checklist on the web so others that were not so fortunate to have
purchased
> a Yakity-Yak airplane can benefit from your expertise? It would go a long
> way towards increasing CJ standardization, promoting safety, highlighting
> the shortcomings of discount dealers, and ultimately reducing insurance
> costs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray Stallings
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come |
clean?)HOW ABOUT YOU?
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Andrew Zheng (China) wrote:
> for the community,would mind I sell parts too but my price will at least
> lower than yours 30%. and I can get all parts that you have also I can get
> some parts you may not get in China. I think there is one or two more CJ
> parts suppliers on the market,it is good for all CJ owners,because you can
> not have all parts and you can not have all parts in stock too.How do you
> think? Please say yes or "show your ugly face":).
Andrew: I will buy parts from Doug as I know I will get what I order and it will
be good or he will replace it. I will pay 30% more for that. I won't buy from
you because, at this point, I don't trust you.
When I bought my first CJ6A I went to Yakity Yaks because I knew that I didn't
know jack about CJ6As. Between talking with Fred and seeing Ken's work on other
airplanes I was convinced that they knew the airplane. Sure I paid more but I
made out in the long run as Betty was a supremely reliable airplane.
YMMV
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)HOW |
ABOUT YOU?
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Andrew Zheng \(China\)" <cjcyak@163bj.com>
I don't mind where do you buy the parts. It is your choice.
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)HOW
ABOUT YOU?
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> Andrew Zheng (China) wrote:
> > for the community,would mind I sell parts too but my price will at least
> > lower than yours 30%. and I can get all parts that you have also I can get
> > some parts you may not get in China. I think there is one or two more CJ
> > parts suppliers on the market,it is good for all CJ owners,because you can
> > not have all parts and you can not have all parts in stock too.How do you
> > think? Please say yes or "show your ugly face":).
>
> Andrew: I will buy parts from Doug as I know I will get what I order and it will
> be good or he will replace it. I will pay 30% more for that. I won't buy from
> you because, at this point, I don't trust you.
>
> When I bought my first CJ6A I went to Yakity Yaks because I knew that I didn't
> know jack about CJ6As. Between talking with Fred and seeing Ken's work on other
> airplanes I was convinced that they knew the airplane. Sure I paid more but
I
> made out in the long run as Betty was a supremely reliable airplane.
>
> YMMV
>
> --
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
> brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Reviewing vendors (was: Honest Andrew wants to come clean?)HOW |
ABOUT YOU?
--> Yak-List message posted by: Dave Laird <dave@davelaird.com>
On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 10:28 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> Sure I paid more but I
> made out in the long run as Betty was a supremely reliable airplane.
She still is supremely reliable!! Thanks Brian!
Dave Laird
N63536 "Betty"
Dallas
>
> YMMV
>
> --
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
> brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
Brian,
We take care of our customers and inquiries from potential customers very well.
We have been in the heavy equipment sales, parts and service business for 48
years. We make the investment in training our people, tooling, facilities, inventories
etc....to be the best at what we do. But am I going to give away product
information to competitive shops so they can undercut us because they have
not made the proper investment? No.
You gave away tech information to potential customers attempting to earn there
business. There is a difference between that and giving it to your competitors.
I don't even like CJ's, (Yak 50 guy) but I would never ask an established
CJ shop to give me their 50 pages of maintenance secrets so I could take it to
a local shop down the street. You want their product or service, buy it. If
you think you can do it better than them, start your own CJ business. I think
it is called capitalism.
Regards,
Francis Butler
Yak 50
SEMPER FI
Don't like CJ's
Trikes are for kids
Bring back the limericks
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Lloyd [mailto:brian@lloyd.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: discount CJ's
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
BUTLER, FRANCIS wrote:
> Why don't you take your aircraft to Mike's shop so they can perform the 50
> page check? I am sure they have developed this checklist to add value to the
> product they sell. I wouldn't give away my maintenance information to
> competitors in my business.
I understand what you are saying and I agree that it is conventional wisdom.
I once worked for an unconventional company. They made modems. There was a
usenet news group, comp.dcom.modems, that functioned very much like this mailing
list; people could ask questions or discuss modem operation and other people
would help them with their problems. A lot of email flew around the network
successfully because of the activity in that news group.
But my company, Telebit, did something different. They assigned a technician to
monitor the list and answer questions, even for a competitor's product.
Sometimes we could fix problems with our competitors' gear that they couldn't
fix because they didn't have the overall expertise we did. The result? Their
customers started coming to us because they knew we could solve their problem.
They didn't just have our word for it -- we proved it in action. Sure we gave
information away up-front but it paid dividends in the long run.
I suspect that the same would work here too. There are some people on the list
who embrace this approach, e.g. Doug Sapp, and it seems to be working for him.
Perhaps if Mike did the same thing and helped people he would get more back in
the form of customers who would make a point of making the trip to Chilocothe,
OH, because that is where the expertise is.
To someone who doesn't know you, telling them you are good doesn't help them too
much. We have examples of that. Proving you are good by providing good
information and support removes any doubt.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
Mr. Stallings
The flip side of that is.... if some in the CJ community were concerned about safety,
they wouldn't be buying junk aircraft on the cheap and expecting the pro's
to give them earned knowledge on how to fix em. I put my money in good product
and experienced service professionals.
I appreciate the fact that people earn a living supplying me with Yak parts and
service and I expect them to earn a buck or two in the process. I want them
to be there when I need something. I have owned 3 Yaks since 97 and have built
working relationships with parts suppliers and shops. Do they give me information
when I ask? Yes. But I also purchase their products. I am all for the
sharing of information, that's what this forum is about. But I would never expect
something for free from someone that earns a living at it.
Regards,
Francis
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray P. Stallings [mailto:JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Re: discount CJ's
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
Mr. Butler,
Your point is well taken, BUT, this is not (and probably should not) be
proprietary information. These are VERY simple airplanes in the grand
scheme of things. There is nothing on these airframes and/or engines that
requires any specialized training that a GOOD mech doesn't already possess.
My point to Mr. McCoy is that if he truly is concerned about furthering the
cause of safety in the CJ community, he should put his information out there
for all to take advantage of. To know where a certain problem area might
exist and to keep it a "secret" (unless you do the work) is reprehensible.
I personally spent literally months compiling all the information I could
gather on our airplanes, scanned it all to a CD-Rom, gave it away to anyone
that asked for a copy and never asked for a penny. I put my money where my
mouth is. Can you say the same?
Ray Stallings
P.S. Just so you know, publishing these checklists would not directly
benefit me in any way. My airplane is finished. I just know that there a
lots of folks that don't have the resources I had available when I restored
my airplane. They could benefit from this information and as a result, we
all will benefit by not having our insurance rates go up when a mishap
occurs like the one's Mr. McCoy outlined in his previous message.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
Mike,
You have a valid point about the legal aspects but there is a simple
solution. I just got finished signing and mailing a Release Agreement back
to an individual that was involved in a minor traffic accident with my son.
We agreed not to pursue any further action against him in return for his
restitution to my son. All you would have to do is put some similar Release
of Liability on your Checklists before distributing them. My attorney has
offered to draw you something up for no charge if you would like.
I take you at your word when you say that safety is your number one
priority. It will never happen if everyone continues to withhold good
information. If things continue on their present course the best we can
hope for are increased insurance rates. The worst case scenario would
involve the FAA. They have already tested the waters with the jet guys.
Fortunately that community has some high-rollers with lots of money. We
might not fare so well if we don't start doing some self-policing of our
ranks.
As an aside, it isn't just some of the mechs that lacking in the compentcy
department. I recently ran into a guy that has had a CJ for over 4 years
that had no idea what the oil-cooler knob in the cockpit did, so he didn't
mess with it. I'm not kidding about this!
Mike, I hope you are really serious when you talk about improving our CJ
community. Please reconsider your position.
Regards,
Ray
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey@alumni.utexas.net>
Mr. Butler,
I doubt anyone INTENTIONALLY buys a junk aircraft, I think that's how this
thread got started in the first place. It comes back to shared information.
Apparently the individual I purchased my aircraft from was well known to
lots of people as a junk merchant. Problem was, when I asked around about
him, NOBODY would take a stand and say so. The naysayers only surfaced
after I purchased the airplane.
I would agree that it is prudent to put your money in good products and
experience if I knew little or nothing about said product. The thing is
these are not overly complicated aircraft and many, if not most, of the
owners are highly competent mechanics.
I think you make my point for me. If Mr. McCoy has something that will
enhance our community's reputation and image, he should put it in the public
domain like Doug Sapp tends to do. Not everyone will start knocking his
door down to buy parts or have maintenance done on his/her aircraft, but he
would definitely see an increase in his bottom line. I know this is true
because I've seen it happen with my brother's business. He owns one of just
a few shops in the country that do extensive Mooney mods. On a given day,
probably 50%-60% of the calls he takes are non-revenue calls. He freely
gives information to anyone that asks (including the Mooney factory). The
biggest comment he hears from his customers is that when it came time to
have the annual or the major mods done to their aircraft, they chose him
because of his unselfish desire to help them when they initially called him,
whether or not they were spending money. I think one of Brian's recent
posts to this list confirms this phenomena.
I can assure you that there is nothing in Mr. McCoy's checklist that isn't
in the AC43.13 or similar documents. He has undoubtedly spent much time
arranging and streamlining his inspection process. It is his property and
he has the right to do with it what he pleases. His lack of desire to
disseminate this seemingly valuable information just seems contrary to his
repeated laments about the poor state of training, systems knowledge, and
maintenance in the CJ community.
Regards,
Ray
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Ray P. Stallings wrote:
> Mike, I hope you are really serious when you talk about improving our CJ
> community. Please reconsider your position.
Mike has something of perceived value but its real value is questionable. It is
not that the information isn't known to many people, only that he has condensed
it down into quickly usable form. I would bet that several of the guys who
regularly work on the CJ6A could sit down and come up with the "100 point
service checklist" in a couple of hours, maybe at Red Star. What one guy
misses, the others will fill in. Heck, we could do it right here on the list in
email and then put it up on the CJ6, Red Star, or YPA web site. (Actually I
wouldn't expect it on the YPA web site because of perceived liability issues.)
I completely understand Mike's position vis-a-vis liability. He will post his
list and then someone might sue him. If you recall, Daryl Strosnider had me
remove his very nice pneumatic system diagram for just that reason.
Unfortunately removing information because of a perceived liability risk runs
counter to the goal of getting information into the hands of people who need it.
I wonder what other type clubs do? I have belonged to several, specifically the
Short Wing Piper Club (my Clipper), the American Yankee Association (my Grumman
Tiger), the Comanche Society, and now YPA. The other clubs made tons of
information available in spite of liability issues. Heck, the SWPC published a
CD-ROM with all the original Piper drawings as well as mods and STCs. I wonder
how they did that without worrying about liability. (Or is it that the
liability is not as big an issue as one might think?)
So how do you play the safety information card against the liability card?
Seems like a big problem to me. My approach is to ignore the liability issue
and publish information anyway. This is probably wrong in the other direction
but it gets more information into the hands of the people who need it.
I can hear the new fairy tale now:
Once upon a time there was a happy little pilot who like to fly his airplane.
The happy little pilot liked to help his friends work on their airplanes so they
could fly too.
One day the happy little pilot printed up some information for his other pilot
friends but up popped a bad old lawyer! "Liability!" shouted the nasty,
slavering lawyer. The happy little pilot wasn't so happy any more. In fact, he
was *scared*!
"Please, oh please don't sue me," cried the happy little pilot. "I won't do it
again! I won't share any more information or help my other pilot friends. Just
don't sue me!"
"Oh, alright," said the bad old lawyer. "But don't let it happen again!"
The happy little pilot realized he wasn't so happy anymore. He and his other
not-so-happy pilot friends just sat by their broken airplanes too afraid to say
anything lest a bad old lawyer hear them and sue them.
But since the pilots couldn't effect tort reform, they were stuck so they gave
up and went inside to watch TV and listen to the funny politicians tell them why
it was good that Mike Mulligan and his Steam Shovel were digging a hole in the
middle of the runway at Miegs Field.
THE END
Oh, and the moral of this story? Just roll over and die. It is what you
deserve if you won't stick your neck out just a little bit.
You know, it is funny that so many people with so much testosterone have so few
balls.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: voltage regulator |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Joe,
I have ordered 4 (new) of the ZY-1500 and there are SUPPOSED to be in my
next load which hits the port of Seattle on April 10th. If you have no luck
give me a call on the 20th as I should have them in hand by then.
Best,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "joe h" <joeh@shaw.ca>
Subject: Yak-List: voltage regulator
> --> Yak-List message posted by: joe h <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Does anyone have a serviceable ZY-1500 voltage regulator for sale
(original CJ-6)
>
> Joe Howse
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
MIKE WROTE:
Unfortunately, this is a prevalent problem in the CJ6A business. I know
that Doug sold a perfectly good engine to someone who didn't have the
ability to get it running and Doug refunded the guys money, taking a big
loss. I have had similar problems in the past on parts that we sold. These
are the issues that you get into when less than competent amateurs are
assembling the airplanes, and I personally don't want any part of it.
*******************************
I just want to let everyone know that Mike's reference is not about the
current problem in Dave's engine which Randy Thorne installed in his
aircraft. This was yet another engine which developed a problem due to a
bad installation. The customer was fully refunded, and Mike McCoy purchased
the engine.
I just want to be clear on this point.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: discount CJ's
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> Ray,
>
> There are two reasons that I won't publish our 50-page checklist.
>
> 1. A great deal of work went into the checklist and I won't work for free.
> We are in business to make a profit and I certainly wouldn't give away our
> competitive advantage.
>
> 2. Eventually, some bozo would sue us because they weren't competent
enough
> to understand what was in the checklist. There is a hugh variety in the
> competence of the people assembling these projects; everyone from very
> competent A&Ps, to backyard bozos (some of them A&Ps and AIs) that I
> wouldn't let work on my lawn tractor. For this reason, we won't even sell
> the checklist - the income is not worth the liability risk. I previously
> sold the Yakity Yaks pilot checklists to anyone that asked, but then had
one
> bozo call to complain about it because he didn't even have the basic
> knowledge to properly lean his airplane. This person was taking off with
> the mixture full lean even though the checklist said just the opposite.
> Somehow, in this person's mind, this was the fault of the checklist!!!!!
> AMAZING!!!
>
> Unfortunately, this is a prevalent problem in the CJ6A business. I know
> that Doug sold a perfectly good engine to someone who didn't have the
> ability to get it running and Doug refunded the guys money, taking a big
> loss. I have had similar problems in the past on parts that we sold.
These
> are the issues that you get into when less than competent amateurs are
> assembling the airplanes, and I personally don't want any part of it.
>
> I'm not saying that everyone that builds a project is incompetent -- in
> fact, far from it. I'm quite sure that many of the people that build
these
> projects are quite competent. Unfortunately, it only takes one Bozo to
ruin
> it for everyone.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>
> > In order to promote every CJ owner's safety, why don't you post your
> 50-page
> > checklist on the web so others that were not so fortunate to have
> purchased
> > a Yakity-Yak airplane can benefit from your expertise? It would go a
long
> > way towards increasing CJ standardization, promoting safety,
highlighting
> > the shortcomings of discount dealers, and ultimately reducing insurance
> > costs.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Ray Stallings
> >
> >
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | FW: [Acro] Assn's letter to Bush re Meigs |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey@attws.com>
More on the Meigs "closure."
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Diamond [mailto:KarenDiamond@compuserve.com]
Subject: [Acro] Assn's letter to Bush re Meigs
Apr 3, 2003 13:33 ET
General Aviation Voices Shock and Outrage to President Bush On Meigs Field
Closure
WASHINGTON, April 3 /PRNewswire/ -- Today, six general aviation groups
signed a letter to President Bush expressing the community's "shock and
outrage" over the Mayor of Chicago's use of national security as an excuse
to demolish Meigs Field.
The letter asks the President to "reaffirm federal authority over security
matters affecting the nation's air transportation system." Additionally,
the letter asks the President to elevate the importance of our national
system of airports to that of our national system of highways.
For more information, please contact Cassandra Bosco, NBAA Director Public
Relations at 202-783-9362 or via email at cbosco@nbaa.org.
The NBAA represents the aviation interests of more than 7,300 companies
that own or operate general aviation aircraft as an aid to the conduct of
their business, or are involved with business aviation. NBAA Member
Companies earn annual revenues approaching $5 trillion -- a number that is
about half the gross domestic product -- and employ more than 19 million
people worldwide. The NBAA Annual Meeting & Convention is the world's
largest display of civil aviation products and services.
Below is the text of the letter to President Bush from the National
Business Aviation Association, General Aviation Manufacturers Association,
Experimental Aircraft Association, National Air Transportation Association,
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, and Helicopter Association
International. A copy of the letter was also sent to Secretary of Homeland
Security Tom Ridge, Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, Under
Secretary for Border and Transportation Security Asa Hutchinson, TSA
Administrator Admiral Jim Loy, and FAA Administrator Marion Blakey.
We are concerned about who is responsible for decisions affecting national
security. On Monday, the Mayor of Chicago, without the required notice to
any federal authority, and under the cloak of darkness, closed and
demolished by bulldozer an important airport in our nation's air
transportation system -- Meigs Field. The general aviation community,
representing every aspect of aviation except scheduled airlines and the
military, is shocked and outraged that a mayor, using the pretext of
national security, can destroy a national asset, create a significant
safety risk and reduce capacity in an area already faced with significant
aviation congestion.
To address what has occurred in Chicago and to prevent a repeat of this
situation in other locations, we urge you to reaffirm federal authority
over security matters affecting the nation's air transportation system. The
action taken on Monday in Chicago is akin to a mayor or a governor
destroying access ramps to a major interstate highway due to security
concerns for traffic using that road. Elevating the importance of our
national system of airports to that of our national system of highways will
send a clear signal to those who would justify their actions in the name of
homeland protection. No local official should be allowed to damage
unilaterally the national aviation system as was demonstrated on Monday.
You urged the creation of a Department of Homeland Security to help protect
the United States and our way of life, which we supported. Please do not
stand idly by as our nation's airports and airspace face a patchwork of
restrictions and closures via local and state power grabs.
We stand ready to assist you in achieving these mutual goals.
Source: National Business Aviation Association
Message 31
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| Subject: | FW: [Acro] A BIG pricetag for Meigs closing |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey@attws.com>
More...
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Diamond [mailto:KarenDiamond@compuserve.com]
Subject: [Acro] A BIG pricetag for Meigs closing
Apr 3, 2003 15:20 ET
Illinois Air Medical Community Stunned Over Closing of Meigs and The
Implications on Critical Patient Transport into Downtown Chicago Hospitals
CHICAGO, April 3 /PRNewswire/ -- The Illinois Association of Air and
Critical Care Transport (IAACCT) and its members are extremely concerned
over the recent closing of Meigs Field and how it will affect the movement
of critically ill/injured patients into (and possibly out of) downtown
Chicago hospitals. Until Sunday, patients have been airlifted into Meigs by
helicopter and/or fixed-wing aircraft and then transported a short distance
by ground to area hospitals. Now, with the closure of Meigs, there are no
approved landing zones or helipads in the immediate downtown area.
The state's 11 air-medical helicopter and fixed-wing programs transport an
average of 200 complex medical and/or trauma patients, as well as organ
transplant teams, to hospitals in the downtown area each year from outlying
hospitals throughout Illinois, parts of Wisconsin and northwestern Indiana.
According to Craig Felty, President of IAACCT, "The patients we transport
are time-critical, complex cases that demand the time-saving and advanced
clinical care that an air-medical crew provides. Without an approved
landing area in close proximity to downtown, whether it is for a helicopter
or a fixed-wing aircraft, the patients may now have to be transported
greater distances by ground from a suitable landing area. In my opinion,
these potential delays definitely could have a negative impact on patients
destined for downtown facilities."
Another concern of IAACCT is the air transport of patients out of the city
of Chicago. An example of the need to rapidly transport patients out of
downtown facilities would include situations involving catastrophic
injuries or illnesses affecting the city. Air-medical helicopters and
fixed-wing aircraft could provide rapid transport of patients to other
facilities to reduce censuses, open up needed beds, and free up valuable
resources at downtown hospitals. Meigs Field provided an excellent facility
for this sort of disaster, allowing safe, efficient, and rapid access by
multiple aircraft.
Source: Illinois Association of Air and Critical Care Transport
Message 32
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg and Amy Medford" <medford007@qwest.net>
Hi Guys,
Well, I have been getting these messages sent to me for a couple years now
through my friend Don Andrews. I guess he sends stuff that he thinks I'll find
interesting. To save him the trouble I broke one of my cardinal rules: "NEVER
join chat rooms," and I did just that. I guess it was about a week ago that
I started receiving e-mails from the list and I am blown away by the amount
of useless conjecture and tripe that has infected my computer.
Either people have been screwed for great deals of money and done nothing
about it (time to get up and make you move or pipe down) or they made bad deals
and are sore about it, embarrassed, and running off uselessly at their cake
eaters. None of us know which! Oddly, the involved parties say less than the
"hearsay" parties. Now, I don't have any dislike (or like for that matter) of
anyone involved, but I hate to see sideline piranhas strike at blood in the
water.
I bought a plane from JN Trading 4 years ago. It was my first airplane, and
I did not have my private ticket yet. I did my research, looked at the competition,
and made my decision. I basically bolted the plane together and started
flying. 300 highly enjoyable and thoroughly uneventful hours later I pulled
my 285 and put on an M-14 and repainted the plane. Barry Hancock's Flying
Tiger Homage came from the same group and as he stated, Bill Blackwell said my
plane looked to be one of the best he had yet seen come into the country, we
had not seen the beautiful new airframes that Doug has brought in at that point!
Anyway, there were things that needed work and tinkering. I expected that.
I was a non-airplane guy that asked a few questions and determined through
broken Chinese translations and difficult communication that JN Trading really
didn't know anything about planes and that the "overhaul" was most certainly
more of a bare bones IRAN inspection and I would have to go through the plane
myself to be sure of its condition and airworthiness. I am so very happy with
the purchase I made that I have arranged for 4 of my friends to get their planes
from JN as well. One guy backed out before the planes shipped and JN quickly
refunded their money, no questions asked. EVERY encounter I have had with
JN has been "as stated" and fair.
"Only fools rush in" is a wise idea. Deals too good to be true are. I learned
that in kindergarten. I meet a fair amount of dreamers in aviation and
that is one of the reasons I like it so much, but with dreamers come realistic
and some not so realistic dreams. The biggest is that "I can make a lot of money
with these airplanes" and the other is, "It's a great deal and all I have
to do is bolt the wings on and I'll be flying..." GET A CLUE... The only thing
more ludicrous is the lost city of El Dorado. 1st realistic rule of business
is, "If you get screwed, it's almost always your own fault. No one will protect
you like you."
So, back to my rule: NO CHAT ROOMS. If I've irked you, save your typing effort
and talk to me face to face at any one of the numerous gatherings I go to
each year. If you are compelled to speak to me immediately call me at 480-227-2399.
Go ahead and shred me on the "List" because I don't care, but don't
be surprised when you see me walk up...
Happy to sign off permanently,
Greg Medford
Message 33
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| Subject: | Free Information |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bob Monzo" <yakpilot@wideopenwest.com>
I had the privilege of having Carl Schells and his shop mechanics work of my Yak
for the first 3 or 4 years of its life. Carl also owned and flew a Yak and
loved the breed (hopefully he still does). Carl dedicated himself to learning
as much about Yaks as possible including the development of some pretty neat
modifications. He gave out as much free information as possible. When I was
in his shop while my Yak was being worked on, the phone would ring constantly.
Easily 90% of these calls were Yak owners from all parts of the country who
needed mechanical information and guidance in the pursuit of assembling, rebuilding
or just plain working on their aircraft. I never heard Carl refuse to answer
any type of question or provide requested guidance. Besides verbal information,
Carl would often FAX diagrams or technical information to these callers.
Carl used to jokingly say he practically assembled (or annualed) so and so's
Yak over the phone. Some of these guys were calling Carl as they worked through
every step of the process calling sometimes 5 or more times a day. Carl
never charged or received any compensation for his valuable assistance and time.
He received a lot promises of future work by these callers. Of course,
the great majority of this promised work never materialized. In the end, he got
out of the airplane maintenance business, slowly at first and then altogether.
He is now has another business building and servicing some large commercial
machinery and he is finally earning the income he deserves for him and his
family. I guess commercial clients don't expect much for nothing. But, they
are willing to pay a fair price for proven expertise. The moral of this story?
That's for each of us to determine for ourselves. However, I will say we cannot
afford to lose too many like my old mechanic Carl.
Fly Safely,
Bob M.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Doug wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> MIKE WROTE:
> Unfortunately, this is a prevalent problem in the CJ6A business. I know
> that Doug sold a perfectly good engine to someone who didn't have the
> ability to get it running and Doug refunded the guys money, taking a big
> loss. I have had similar problems in the past on parts that we sold. These
> are the issues that you get into when less than competent amateurs are
> assembling the airplanes, and I personally don't want any part of it.
> *******************************
> I just want to let everyone know that Mike's reference is not about the
> current problem in Dave's engine which Randy Thorne installed in his
> aircraft. This was yet another engine which developed a problem due to a
> bad installation. The customer was fully refunded, and Mike McCoy purchased
> the engine.
Thanks for that Doug. Randy is a good guy and I wouldn't want him to get a bad
rep due to false inuendo.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [Acro] A BIG pricetag for Meigs closing |
--> Yak-List message posted by: William Halverson <william@netpros.net>
Very sad, but why does anyone think Daley cares for anything except the
increaed size of his bank accounts from the people who will get rich off
of his decision? He's a chip off his father's block.
I still think the 4th ID should reembark and land on the Gold Coast to
take out the Caeser of Chicago ... wonder if Daley has WMD, other than
his mouth ...
Bill Halverson
Coffey, John wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey@attws.com>
>
>More...
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Karen Diamond [mailto:KarenDiamond@compuserve.com]
>To: Acro Exploder
>Subject: [Acro] A BIG pricetag for Meigs closing
>
>
>Apr 3, 2003 15:20 ET
>
>Illinois Air Medical Community Stunned Over Closing of Meigs and The
>Implications on Critical Patient Transport into Downtown Chicago Hospitals
>
>CHICAGO, April 3 /PRNewswire/ -- The Illinois Association of Air and
>Critical Care Transport (IAACCT) and its members are extremely concerned
>over the recent closing of Meigs Field and how it will affect the movement
>of critically ill/injured patients into (and possibly out of) downtown
>Chicago hospitals. Until Sunday, patients have been airlifted into Meigs by
>helicopter and/or fixed-wing aircraft and then transported a short distance
>by ground to area hospitals. Now, with the closure of Meigs, there are no
>approved landing zones or helipads in the immediate downtown area.
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Re: discount CJ's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Ray, you had a good idea about a liability release waiver, but unfortunately
releases aren't worth the paper they are written on, legally speaking. Any
good attorney will tell you that you can't sign away your rights.
Unfortunately, I am speaking from personal experience. Several years ago, I
was sued by the disgruntled wife of my business partner. She decided to
sleep with half of the men in southern Ohio and he divorced the slut. She
sued my partner, me, and my wife for a bunch of things that she simply made
up. To make a long story short, the lawsuit was totally baseless and we
obviously won, but not before I shelled out $15,000 in attorney fees. The
slut married a worthless bum and lived in a rented trailer in an alley, so
there was no way that we could counter sue or recover damages.
Again, I agree totally with what Mr. Butler said. I certainly would not
give away our work product for free and I will not accept the liability risk
for people that want to buy junk airplanes.
In addition, Brian is right. I'm sure that he and others can make up a
checklist and any other documents that are desired. The question is whether
someone that has skimped on buying a good airplane will spend the money to
properly assemble and maintain their airplane, checklist or not. All you
have to do is look at many of the people that have had accidents and
incidents. They have a lot in common: bought a cheap airplane, skimped on
assembly and maintenance, skimped on training, had an accident. Seems very
simple to me.
Mike
Message 37
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lou Dakos" <lou_dakos@bordermail.com.au>
I reinstalled generator last night and at last it was generating cut in at about
1000 engine rpm but as I increased revs and got to 1450 rpm volts went up to
29 measured at batteries and then regulator cut out, generator light back on
it was a bit dark by then so to-nights job is try to get regulator adjusted I
have a manual but its like all the other tranlated ones.
Lou
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Bill Scully, David Strawn's airplane |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dave Strawn" <dastrawn@mindspring.com>
Brian and CJ friends,
Thanks for stating my case so eloquently. Obviously, if Andrew and Bill
Scully had sold me the plane they represented, I would have been flying the
past two years rather than waiting on one repair after another to get it
airworthy. As Doug Sapp, Randy Thorne and Brian can testify, I have spent a
considerable amount of money repairing things (including a new engine) that
both Andrew and Bill represented to be in airworthy condition. I could give
you a list similar to Ray Stallings (nicely done Ray), but, quite frankly,
I'm a bit tired over this matter.
Bottomline, my main concern is to warn all who are contemplating doing
business with Andrew. As you can see from many who have responded on this
list, Andrew will represent a plane to be something it is not. In my book
that is being dishonest and no one under any circumstances should do
business with that kind of person. They simply cannot be trusted. As Brian
pointed out, both Bill and Andrew put his life in jeopardy by delivering to
him an airplane that was not airworthy. We do not need or want people like
that selling and working on our CJs. We need to weed them out before they
give our planes a bad rap, or worse, kill someone.
the brutal facts
Dave Strawn
ps - thanks to Brian Lloyd, Randy Thorne, Doug Sapp and friends I will have
a very airworthy CJ soon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian@lloyd.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Bill Scully, David Strawn's airplane
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> Thank you for refreshing my memory. It has been a long time.
>
> Battery: you very well could be right that it was a single battery. I
remember
> thinking that the wiring run was pretty ugly and poorly thought-out. The
> non-workmanship-like manner in which the wiring was put in place is what
> bothered me.
>
> Transponder: I remember now that the aircraft had no nav-com when I picked
it up
> (I used my handheld) so it is clear that I am thinking of the post radio
> installation check flight.
>
> But the pitot-static system was full of water. It is a kick to see an ASI
> decrease as the airplane declerated and then *increase* again as it
approached
> stall. I can't imagine you checked it or it would have been obvious that
there
> was a problem. Anyone else who flew the aircraft and performed a stall
would
> have seen the same thing. This is no big deal for someone who has a fair
amount
> of time in the aircraft and knows how it feels near the stall but very
much not
> good for a new pilot in the aircraft. It makes me wonder what was done
during
> the sign-off of Phase-I since it seems pretty obvious that no one verified
> instrument readings or if they did, they ignored the errors.
>
> And the cylinders were coming off the engine. I guess that could have
happened
> in the 2 hour flight back to Cameron Park but I suspect that something was
> already going on before I took the airplane. I have a fair amount of
knowledge
> and experience with airplanes but checking the cylinder base nut torque
values
> is not something I normally do during a preflight inspection of the
aircraft.
> It *is* something I would do in a complete inspection of an aircraft prior
to
> certification.
>
> And there were problems with the pneumatic system that had to be remedied
due to
> the poor state of maintenance.
>
> The bottom line has not changed tho'. I was given an airplane that you
had
> worked on and claimed to be airworthy. It had valid documentation. It
became
> apparent on the flight to CP that the aircraft might not be in the
condition
> represented before departure. Further examination showed that the
airplane
> clearly was *NOT* airworthy and you guys had potentially put my life at
> jeopardy. Now you either did it through ignorance or you intentionally
> misrepresented the airplane. If I were you I would claim ignorance as
that
> probably reduces your liability and it can be remedied.
>
> <sigh> I don't want a fight. I am sorry I let my simmering anger get me
into
> this discussion. I was a put off by the state of the aircraft when I
ended that
> flight. I was frustrated by all the work that had to be done to get the
> airplane ready to do training with its owner. I feel sorry for David in
that he
> bought an airplane he really hasn't been able to fly. I will grant that
> everything probably appeared OK when I took the airplane. I don't think
these
> problem would have occured with Yakity Yaks, Bill Blackwell, Randy Thorne,
or
> the Selbys.
>
> Caveat Emptor.
> --
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
> brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: elevator balancing |
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Hi Jay;
I have recovered and installed 4 sets of CJ6 controls up to now also using
the Ceconite 102 and dope process. Have never been able to locate manual
information on balancing but did note that, with the aircraft longitudinally
level, the elevators were neutral with the original covering. With the new
covering they were the same so the re-cover operation is pretty close to the
same weight.
Your repair may make a small difference. I would install the elevators with
new or definately serviceable bearings, level the aircraft and check
position. If necessary adjust counterbalance weight.
If anyone out there has specs. for CJ6 control balancing I would sure
appreciate the information.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Subject: Yak-List: elevator balancing
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
>
> Does anyone have the info. on balancing the elevator assembly on a CJ? I
have made a repair that ads 1.8oz to the trailing edge but I have recovered
with ceconite 102 which should be lighter than the linen. There are no added
weights on the counter balance stud. The other elevator is still linen
>
>
Message 40
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--> Yak-List message posted by: jackron@att.net
Hi All, I'm busy doing the "annual" on the CJ and my mech thinks we should
check the valves on the Housi. I've checked Doug's fine manuals and the ones I
got from Yakity yaks and can't find any valve adjusting procedure or limits.
Can anybody help ?
On another note, we are leaving Juneau for Red star on May 3. Anybody from
western Canada, Washington or Oregon want to hook up ?
Thanks, Ron Swanson
--
Message 41
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| Subject: | Map Rooms update |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
Hi gang,
I have again updated most of the map rooms on the site. If you have
registered on allredstar.com in the last couple of weeks, please check
to make sure that your information is there and is accurate. If you
have not yet "formed up" you can do so at:
http://www.allredstar.com/Recruiting_Office.asp
Curiously, the Northwest Region is under-represented at this point. Of
course, Doug Sapp lead by example, now he just needs his green/clean-air
loving brethren to follow... :)
Red Star West '03 has over 30 registered already....well ahead of last
year's pace.
Thanks for all your support, we still have a long way to go and we hope
to see more articles submitted by our members to advance the cause.
If you're headed out of town, take a look at our flight planning
page...it's received high praise from our members.
http://www.allredstar.com/Flight_Planning.asp
Cheers,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
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