Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:44 AM - Re: hammerheads (Mike McCoy)
2. 05:04 AM - FOD -- i.e. pilot error (Mike McCoy)
3. 05:18 AM - Re: Wiring Diagram (Brian Lloyd)
4. 05:42 AM - Re: hammerheads (Brian Lloyd)
5. 05:51 AM - published inspection program (Brian Lloyd)
6. 05:56 AM - Re: Starting Question (Ernie)
7. 06:14 AM - Re: FOD -- i.e. pilot error (A. Dennis Savarese)
8. 07:04 AM - starting distributor (joe h)
9. 07:28 AM - klez (jay reiter)
10. 07:59 AM - Re: Starting Question (A. Dennis Savarese)
11. 08:39 AM - Re: hammerheads (Mike McCoy)
12. 10:10 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 04/09/03 (Jerry Painter)
13. 12:23 PM - Re: Starting Question (Jon Boede)
14. 02:00 PM - Wings Over Williston (Ernie)
15. 08:53 PM - How to read the CJ Ammeter? (Jim Shanks)
16. 10:21 PM - Volt/Amp Meter (Frank Stelwagon)
17. 10:34 PM - Re: How to read the CJ Ammeter? (Lou Dakos)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
You can definitely do an excellent hammerhead in the CJ6A. However, the
proper way to learn them is NOT on the internet. You need to get proper
aerobatic instruction from a qualified aerobatic instructor. It is possible
(and easy) to inadvertently enter a tailslide in the CJ6A, which is not
approved for this maneuver. We inspected a CJ that did an inadvertent
tailslide when an incompetent aerobatic instructor was trying to teach a CJ
pilot to do hammerheads.
Much of the information given on this list so far regarding tailslides is
garbage. Get quality instruction and stay alive!
Mike McCoy
Message 2
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| Subject: | FOD -- i.e. pilot error |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
As many of you know, there has recently been a string of accidents
(especially Yak 52) that have been initially blamed on FOD of one sort or
another. While it may be impossible to know exactly what happened in any
one of these incidents, I would like to throw out the probability that most
of these accidents were self-inflicted. The point is....why was there FOD
in these airplanes, especially when they were being flown aerobatically???
Why were pilots doing aerobatics without securing the aft cockpit
restraints, including the crotch strap? There has been a lot of discussion
lately about everyone doing a big FOD check on their airplanes, but this
will not solve the problem. What's needed is not a one time FOD inspection
or a seat belt mod, but rather a proper preflight EVERY TIME YOU FLY.
Flying aerobatics is serious business and extremely unforgiving of the pilot
that isn't equally as serious.
As an example, we recently did a condition inspection on a CJ. I was
absolutely shocked to find the ELT monitor panel cable flopping around loose
and draped over the elevator cable. On the very same airplane, the comm
radio antenna was located on the belly aft of the big ADF tray, and the
antenna cable was routed over the elevator cable. It was in direct contact
with the elevator cable and was chafing every time the elevator was moved.
Either of these cables could have become caught on one of the turnbuckles,
bonding straps, or on the elevator control horn in the case of the ELT
cable. At any rate, clearly a MUCH better preflight inspection was needed
and only through luck was a catastrophy averted.
Mike (let's avoid those self-inflicted wounds) McCoy
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagram |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Dennis Von Ruden wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Dennis Von Ruden" <dvonruden@generalequip.com>
>
> I am in the process of completing a long and quality restoration program
> for my CJ. The original wiring was removed along with the original
> radios, etc. I am now attempting to rewire the aircraft and am wondering
> if someone who has already rewired their aircraft might have a more
> simplified wiring diagram that could be purchased. Although my formal
> education is in aeronautical engineering...I can assure you that we did
> not spend a lot of time at the University of Minnesota figuring out how
> to wire aircraft. I have all the original wiring diagrams and everything
> available off the web.
Do you plan to reinstall all the chinese instruments or start from scratch?
There is a lot of extra wiring to handle the old avionics and the high
current/power required to run them. If you dispense with the generator and the
avionics, the electrical system becomes quite simple. OTOH you probably should
dispense with the Chinese electrical system entirely and start from scratch.
This is what I am doing with The Project.
I could help you do something custom but before either of us embark down that
road I strongly recommend you get a copy of "The Aero Electric Connection," by
Bob Nuckols. This book covers the basics and reasoning behind aircraft
electrical system design as well as various specific designs for ultrareliable
and redundant aircraft electrical system designs for experimental aircraft. He
and I disagree in some small details but overall I think he is right on the money.
But don't take my word for it. Check out the Aero Electric web site and peruse
some of his schematics and articles.
http://www.aeroelectric.com
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Mike McCoy wrote:
> You can definitely do an excellent hammerhead in the CJ6A. However, the
> proper way to learn them is NOT on the internet. You need to get proper
> aerobatic instruction from a qualified aerobatic instructor.
In this I agree with you. In David's case, during trasition training we did go
through the full range of basic aerobatic maneuvers including the hammerhead but
he clearly needs a refresher. Flying something like an Extra 300 that makes
this kind of maneuver easier spoils you for the extra finesse needed to get the
CJ6A to perform the same maneuver.
> It is possible
> (and easy) to inadvertently enter a tailslide in the CJ6A, which is not
> approved for this maneuver. We inspected a CJ that did an inadvertent
> tailslide when an incompetent aerobatic instructor was trying to teach a CJ
> pilot to do hammerheads.
I would be interested in hearing what kinds of problems you expect/look-for in
an airplane that has done a tail slide. I managed to inadvertantly enter a tail
slide with Betty when I was trying to find the correct entry speed for the kick
in a hammerhead. When I realized what was developing I closed the throttle,
pulled the stick back about halfway to the rear stop and held it with both hands
until the nose fell through then recovered. I don't see where that is likely to
do any sort of damage to the structure but I may be missing something.
> Much of the information given on this list so far regarding tailslides is
> garbage. Get quality instruction and stay alive!
If the information is garbage perhaps you can help by presenting correct
information. The way that hangar flying works is by having the more experienced
heads provide correcting information and the theory or experience behind it.
Allowing incorrect information to stand without correction does more harm than
good.
Again, I point out that by providing good information people are more likely to
say, "gee, Mike McCoy really knows what he is talking about. I will go to him
for my refresher and aerobatic training." That is good marketing for you and
will likely increase your business. Dave is a perfect example. Helping him now
will probably motivate him to fly up to visit you for instruction. (Besides, it
will give you a chance to get your hands on one of my students. :
)
And lest anyone say otherwise, I agree with you 100% that one needs good
hands-on training in the aircraft with a qualified instructor before doing
aerobatics. The one area I disagree with you on is when two experienced
aerobatic pilots get together they can discuss techniques and speeds in an
attempt to improve their own performance. There is certainly a place for books
and ground school on performing aerobatics but, ultimately, nothing replaces the
final hands-on training with a good instructor
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 5
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| Subject: | published inspection program |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
A good starting point for inspecting a CJ6A, especially a newly imported one,
are the published Chinese inspection manual and rebuild manual. Both are
on-line at the CJ6 web site.
Inspections:
http://cj6.com/cj6_docs/aircraft%20and%20engine%20maintenance%20manuals/02%20Periodic%20Inspection.tif
Overhauling components:
http://cj6.com/cj6_docs/PT-6%20Overhaul%20Manual
You will need a good multipage-TIF viewer but one is located in the "image
viewing programs" section. The Kodak viewer will do this whereas the Microsoft
one will not.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Question |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
If it was an exhaust valve I would assume that it would have showed up
during the compression check..
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Starting Question
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> If it is an exhaust valve Ernie, you can easily lap the valve while it
> remains in the cylinder. Solves many an exhaust valve problem. Could
also
> be something in the air distributor. But more than likely Ron is right on
> the money.
> Dennis Savarese
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ron wasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Starting Question
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: ron wasson <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
> >
> > You might have a sticking or leaking valve that allows the starter air
to
> > escape from that cylinder. If that cyl is one of the first to get air
then
> > you do not have enough push to get past it to the next. Most valve
> problems
> > are exhaust and you will hear the hiss in the exhaust as the starter air
> > escapes.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: FOD -- i.e. pilot error |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Excellent point Mike!
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
Subject: Yak-List: FOD -- i.e. pilot error
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
>
> As many of you know, there has recently been a string of accidents
> (especially Yak 52) that have been initially blamed on FOD of one sort or
> another. While it may be impossible to know exactly what happened in any
> one of these incidents, I would like to throw out the probability that
most
> of these accidents were self-inflicted. The point is....why was there FOD
> in these airplanes, especially when they were being flown aerobatically???
> Why were pilots doing aerobatics without securing the aft cockpit
> restraints, including the crotch strap? There has been a lot of
discussion
> lately about everyone doing a big FOD check on their airplanes, but this
> will not solve the problem. What's needed is not a one time FOD
inspection
> or a seat belt mod, but rather a proper preflight EVERY TIME YOU FLY.
> Flying aerobatics is serious business and extremely unforgiving of the
pilot
> that isn't equally as serious.
>
> As an example, we recently did a condition inspection on a CJ. I was
> absolutely shocked to find the ELT monitor panel cable flopping around
loose
> and draped over the elevator cable. On the very same airplane, the comm
> radio antenna was located on the belly aft of the big ADF tray, and the
> antenna cable was routed over the elevator cable. It was in direct
contact
> with the elevator cable and was chafing every time the elevator was moved.
> Either of these cables could have become caught on one of the turnbuckles,
> bonding straps, or on the elevator control horn in the case of the ELT
> cable. At any rate, clearly a MUCH better preflight inspection was needed
> and only through luck was a catastrophy averted.
>
> Mike (let's avoid those self-inflicted wounds) McCoy
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | starting distributor |
--> Yak-List message posted by: joe h <joeh@shaw.ca>
Ernie
Have you checked for a leaking line from the dist. valve to a cylinder?
I have a copy of instructions for adjusting the distributor valve from the maint.
manual.
I will fax to you if you send me your fax no.
Joe
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Hope everybody has there Norton up to date just received a message yak list severer
your password attached that was blocked because of klez virus.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Question |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
It really depends on how the exhaust valve seated during the compression
test. Which could have been the case. You also could have picked up some
carbon etc. on the valve/valve seat and it burned off. That could be the
reason why you haven't seen the problem show up again too.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Starting Question
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> If it was an exhaust valve I would assume that it would have showed up
> during the compression check..
>
> Ernie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Starting Question
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >
> > If it is an exhaust valve Ernie, you can easily lap the valve while it
> > remains in the cylinder. Solves many an exhaust valve problem. Could
> also
> > be something in the air distributor. But more than likely Ron is right
on
> > the money.
> > Dennis Savarese
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "ron wasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Starting Question
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: ron wasson <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
> > >
> > > You might have a sticking or leaking valve that allows the starter air
> to
> > > escape from that cylinder. If that cyl is one of the first to get air
> then
> > > you do not have enough push to get past it to the next. Most valve
> > problems
> > > are exhaust and you will hear the hiss in the exhaust as the starter
air
> > > escapes.
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike McCoy" <mike@aircraftsales.com>
You can definitely do an excellent hammerhead in the CJ6A. However, the
proper way to learn them is NOT on the internet. You need to get proper
aerobatic instruction from a qualified aerobatic instructor. It is possible
(and easy) to inadvertently enter a tailslide in the CJ6A, which is not
approved for this maneuver. We inspected a CJ that did an inadvertent
tailslide when an incompetent aerobatic instructor was trying to teach a CJ
pilot to do hammerheads.
Much of the information given on this list so far regarding hammerheads has
been
garbage. Get quality instruction and stay alive!
Mike McCoy
Message 12
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| Subject: | RE: Yak-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 04/09/03 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Ernie,
Although you may have a sticking intake or exhaust valve, or even a
timing problem (not likely), I think its much more probable that you
have a sticking air-start valve on one cylinder. If a start-valve
sticks, the cylinder won't pressurize and the engine stops cranking when
it gets to that cylinder (and your compression test will be low,
too--check that low cylinder). Move the prop a little bit to the next
cylinder and everything works great until you get back to the offending
cylinder. The air-start valves are little spring-loaded poppet valves
that are opened by the high pressure starter air--no mechanical
actuation. It is common for them to coke up with carbon and stick open.
They unscrew from the cylinder head, seat, spring and all. Just remove
the air line, then the valve, clean it and stick it back in. If the
valve is only sticking a little or part-time you may not have a problem
every time you start the engine. But in time it will get worse and
worse and it will eventually collect a lot of carbon and be good and
stuck. Fix it now before it gets worse. Its easy to do--you may not
even have to remove the cowling!
Over and out,
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
Time: 01:38:42 PM PST US
From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Starting Question
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Guys/Gals
Last Sun coming home from S&F I had started my engine as usual, then a
spat of mechanical problems with other airplanes forced me to shut down,
when I tried to re-start, the prop turned a few blades then stopped and
hissed. I got out, move the prop, and it did it again, I then moved the
prop by hand one more time and she started.
I performed a compression check and my compressions are mostly mid 70's
with a low of 68 and a high of 79.
Does anyone know why this may have happned??? I've had two subsequent
starts without a problem.
Ernie
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Question |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@zoso.email.net>
We did an annual where the compression check turned up 76-79 all the way
around... three weeks later (about 25 hours) I noticed a problem in
starting just like you describe and because I'd started to hear a slight
sucking noise when pulling the prop through in the pre-flight, we went
through all the exhaust valves and found one that was burnt... of course,
another compression check would have turned that up, but it just goes to
show you how fast things can go from "just fine" to "dammit". :-)
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> If it was an exhaust valve I would assume that it would have showed up
> during the compression check..
>
> Ernie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Starting Question
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>>
>> If it is an exhaust valve Ernie, you can easily lap the valve while it
>> remains in the cylinder. Solves many an exhaust valve problem. Could
> also
>> be something in the air distributor. But more than likely Ron is
>> right on the money.
>> Dennis Savarese
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ron wasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Starting Question
>>
>>
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: ron wasson
>> <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
>> >
>> > You might have a sticking or leaking valve that allows the starter
>> air
> to
>> > escape from that cylinder. If that cyl is one of the first to get
>> air
> then
>> > you do not have enough push to get past it to the next. Most valve
>> problems
>> > are exhaust and you will hear the hiss in the exhaust as the starter
>> air escapes.
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Wings Over Williston |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Fellow Florida Flyers.
There is a small show this coming weekend in Williston Fl. Just west of Gainsville.
They are in desperate need of Warbirds and have asked me to solicit help
from our org. They will pay for fuel and rooms and a car for static displays.
The actuall show is Sat and Sun but they have a exibitor party on Fri. Theres
some pretty heavy weight acts like Patty Wagstaff and Gene Susy appearng.
If you guys are able to make it let me know asap since they need to reserve rooms.
If enough FAST qualified guys can make it they would probably fit in a formation
pass during the show.
Contact me directly for my phone number.
Ernie
Message 15
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| Subject: | How to read the CJ Ammeter? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Shanks" <shankeroid@attbi.com>
Alright, I'm confused. Got the standard Chinese ammeter/voltmeter on our CJ.
Normally, in most western airplanes, a negative amp reading (less than zero,
meaning a discharge) is read to the "left" of zero. The "white arc" on our ammeter
is in the range of 2 to 0 (to the left side of zero.) Is this indeed the
"positive" range indicating a positive charge and the real negative amp range
is to the "right" of zero (0 to 6)?
For what-its-worth, the "Generator Low Output" light is always on, regardless
of power setting, but batteries don't appear to be going dead over time.
Can't find this anywhere in the manuals and only reference to "check volts/amps"
in checklists.
Any help appreciated!
Jim Shanks
shankeroid@attbi.com
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
The Chinese volt amp meter reads amps backwards. Current draw (discharge) is to
the right and charge is to the left of zero. Its real easy to change. The
two leads from the shunt in the power distribution box come out through one of
the connectors. The connector is easy to disamble and the two pins and wires
positions in the connector are swapped.
The ampmeter reading will then be conventional and the voltmeter will not be affected.
I do not have the connector/pin numbers here at home but they are on
the schematic.
Incidently if you are looking for readable shcematics Doug Sapp has the only readable
ones I have ever seen.
Frank Stelwagon
CJ-6A N23021
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: How to read the CJ Ammeter? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lou Dakos" <lou_dakos@bordermail.com.au>
Jim
If is the old style regulator light should go out when rpm goes up around
1000? if not it needs adjusting just done mine bugger of a job, meter
voltage at battery when light goes out generator volts should be around 24.5
I think but at full noise not more than 27.5 + or - a bit it took ages for
my batteries to die as there is not much load if most of the old avionics
are gone (I lost all electrics in flight we had ignored warning light being
on) I have book that describes this process but its not in my hands at the
moment if you like I can scan a couple of pages and email them to you but I
have only dealt with the old regulator.
Lou
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Shanks" <shankeroid@attbi.com>
Subject: Yak-List: How to read the CJ Ammeter?
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Shanks" <shankeroid@attbi.com>
>
> Alright, I'm confused. Got the standard Chinese ammeter/voltmeter on
our CJ. Normally, in most western airplanes, a negative amp reading (less
than zero, meaning a discharge) is read to the "left" of zero. The "white
arc" on our ammeter is in the range of 2 to 0 (to the left side of zero.)
Is this indeed the "positive" range indicating a positive charge and the
real negative amp range is to the "right" of zero (0 to 6)?
>
> For what-its-worth, the "Generator Low Output" light is always on,
regardless of power setting, but batteries don't appear to be going dead
over time.
>
> Can't find this anywhere in the manuals and only reference to "check
volts/amps" in checklists.
>
> Any help appreciated!
>
> Jim Shanks
> shankeroid@attbi.com
>
>
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