Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:00 AM - Yak "Discovery" Fly-in (PDumoret)
2. 07:44 AM - Re: Spins (Barry Hancock)
3. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: Spins and E-3 updates (Mark Schrick)
4. 09:08 AM - article (cjpilot710@aol.com)
5. 09:37 AM - Re: article (Doug)
6. 11:57 AM - CJ-6 FOR SALE (John W Finley)
7. 01:46 PM - Re: article (Ernest Martinez)
8. 01:50 PM - Re: article (cjpilot710@aol.com)
9. 02:15 PM - Re: article (Ernest Martinez)
10. 05:24 PM - Re: article (Frank Haertlein)
11. 05:31 PM - Re: article (cjpilot710@aol.com)
12. 06:26 PM - Re: (Rick Basiliere)
13. 06:26 PM - Re: article (Rick Basiliere)
14. 06:36 PM - THANK YOU! (Frank Haertlein)
15. 09:49 PM - WARBIRD ARTICLE (Drew Blahnick)
16. 09:56 PM - Re: Carb Cleaning / Adjustment (Ron)
17. 09:56 PM - Re: spins (Ron)
18. 09:56 PM - Re: VGs and spins - Bud's comments (Ron)
19. 09:56 PM - Re: Re: Spins (Ron)
20. 10:53 PM - Re: spins (cjpilot710@aol.com)
21. 11:12 PM - spins (Jerry Painter)
22. 11:38 PM - Re: Carb Cleaning / Adjustment (William Halverson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Yak "Discovery" Fly-in |
tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE
version=2.55
--> Yak-List message posted by: "PDumoret" <3bar@direct.ca>
The 4th Annual in Oliver is correct by Jim as the 26,27 & 28 Sep 03. Rooms available
at Southwind Inn rigt on the field;1-800-661-9922. Oliver (AU3) is just
north of rthe border about a 15 min flight north of Omak (Doug). Great fun and
very Yak friendly. If you need any more info contact me, Paul Dumoret @ 250-490-0005
or 3bar@direct.ca.
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> A good example: FACT, The WAC just concluded, and what?, almost 50
> competitors and 4 flights each all laced with spins/snaps,
> inside/outside,
> upright/inverted. 1000's done in Lakeland alone in a week and all
> survived.
> Somebody must be doing something right. Hallelujah
This whole thing reminds me of the argument against multi-engine
airplanes...that if you loose an engine the second engine takes you to
the scene of the crash. We can all come up with examples of where
things didn't work out when they *should* have - in EVERY facet of
life. However, if intentional spins were inherently dangerous do you
really think the IAC would sanction them in even the category where
pilots are new to competition (Primary)?
I cannot speak on the cockpit forces of an inverted flat spin - yet -
but I know we've all heard stories of great pilots dying because they
wanted to save the airplane and fought it past the point of no return
instead of getting out of the plane before it was too late. I suspect
the better the pilot, the greater the risk of this happening. Do you
really think a guy who's done 1000's of spins in many different types of
aircraft thinks he *can't* get out of the one that kills him? The
decision is easy, I'm guessing, if you've lost some sort of control
integrity. It's probably a lot harder when the plane is functioning
normally.
I was taught from day one of spin training, even though it was a
Decathlon, to have a floor, check your altitude on every rotation, and
if you aren't recovered by the floor your decision to get out is already
made.
Bottom line, as with every other aspect of flying, is to get good
training and fly that training on every flight. Speaking of which,
Sergei Boriak is coming out to SoCal in mid-August. If there's anyone
out there that would like to join me for 3 days (you can choose as many
of those three days as you'd like) with one of the best coaches on the
planet, contact me off list.
Happy flying,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Director of Operations
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and E-3 updates |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Schrick" <schrick@pacbell.net>
Barry,
How is the new fire breathing, dogfighting machine of yours (Interovia E-3)?
By now that thing should be breaking all kinds of envelopes records over the
CJ.
Hope all is well and keep us informed on the E-3 progress and what you find
while flying it.
Enquiring minds what to know...........
Mark "SHREK" Schrick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Barry Hancock
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spins
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> A good example: FACT, The WAC just concluded, and what?, almost 50
> competitors and 4 flights each all laced with spins/snaps,
> inside/outside,
> upright/inverted. 1000's done in Lakeland alone in a week and all
> survived.
> Somebody must be doing something right. Hallelujah
This whole thing reminds me of the argument against multi-engine
airplanes...that if you loose an engine the second engine takes you to
the scene of the crash. We can all come up with examples of where
things didn't work out when they *should* have - in EVERY facet of
life. However, if intentional spins were inherently dangerous do you
really think the IAC would sanction them in even the category where
pilots are new to competition (Primary)?
I cannot speak on the cockpit forces of an inverted flat spin - yet -
but I know we've all heard stories of great pilots dying because they
wanted to save the airplane and fought it past the point of no return
instead of getting out of the plane before it was too late. I suspect
the better the pilot, the greater the risk of this happening. Do you
really think a guy who's done 1000's of spins in many different types of
aircraft thinks he *can't* get out of the one that kills him? The
decision is easy, I'm guessing, if you've lost some sort of control
integrity. It's probably a lot harder when the plane is functioning
normally.
I was taught from day one of spin training, even though it was a
Decathlon, to have a floor, check your altitude on every rotation, and
if you aren't recovered by the floor your decision to get out is already
made.
Bottom line, as with every other aspect of flying, is to get good
training and fly that training on every flight. Speaking of which,
Sergei Boriak is coming out to SoCal in mid-August. If there's anyone
out there that would like to join me for 3 days (you can choose as many
of those three days as you'd like) with one of the best coaches on the
planet, contact me off list.
Happy flying,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Director of Operations
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Well, I just got my July issue of Warbirds. Yep my "article" is in there.
But without my knowledge, they "edited" the shit out of (it had a lot of good
shit) it to the point it was more like a rough outline, with no substance.
They left out a whole lot of stuff and pictures.
I sent the whole article to Mike Filucci for inclusion in the Yak Driver. If
you guys bugged him enough maybe he'll put on it along with it's pictures on
the web site.
Me? I think I'll just give up on writing.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Jim,
Can you email me a copy?
Best,
doug
----- Original Message -----
From: <cjpilot710@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: article
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> Well, I just got my July issue of Warbirds. Yep my "article" is in there.
> But without my knowledge, they "edited" the shit out of (it had a lot of
good
> shit) it to the point it was more like a rough outline, with no substance.
> They left out a whole lot of stuff and pictures.
>
> I sent the whole article to Mike Filucci for inclusion in the Yak Driver.
If
> you guys bugged him enough maybe he'll put on it along with it's pictures
on
> the web site.
>
> Me? I think I'll just give up on writing.
>
> Jim
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> Benjamin Franklin 1759
> "With my shield, or on it"
> Trojan Warriors BC
> "The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like
grapes
> until some woman stomps all over them."
> Unknown older man.
>
>
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: John W Finley <finleycj6@juno.com>
Hello Changers and Yaksters,
I have had my CJ-6 for sale and had a tentative buyer. That sale was
not completed so N75485 is still available. Ads are in TAP, Barnstormers,
etc.
Remember the clinic / fly-in Sept 21 - 25 at Ruidoso, NM ( SRR ) more
reminders to come...John
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" <Ernest.Martinez@oracle.com>
As long as you mentioned my oustanding job as your wingman on the way to
Leeward I was happy :)
Ernie
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: article
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Well, I just got my July issue of Warbirds. Yep my "article" is in there.
But without my knowledge, they "edited" the shit out of (it had a lot of
good
shit) it to the point it was more like a rough outline, with no substance.
They left out a whole lot of stuff and pictures.
I sent the whole article to Mike Filucci for inclusion in the Yak Driver.
If
you guys bugged him enough maybe he'll put on it along with it's pictures on
the web site.
Me? I think I'll just give up on writing.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 7/15/2003 4:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ernest.Martinez@oracle.com writes:
> As long as you mentioned my oustanding job as your wingman on the way to
> Leeward I was happy :)
>
> Ernie
>
>
Sorry Ernie. You weren't even mentioned. That's to what kind of job you did
though. You did not do something that NEEDED mentioning. :}
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" <Ernest.Martinez@oracle.com>
You're full of crapola Mr...... I read it myself :)
Ernie
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: article
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 7/15/2003 4:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ernest.Martinez@oracle.com writes:
> As long as you mentioned my oustanding job as your wingman on the way to
> Leeward I was happy :)
>
> Ernie
>
>
Sorry Ernie. You weren't even mentioned. That's to what kind of job you
did
though. You did not do something that NEEDED mentioning. :}
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Jim;
I also got my copy of Warbirds today. When I saw the back cover of the
mag I instantly looked for any YAK related articles inside. Actually sat
in my car at the post office to read the articles.
They may have edited the articles but I enjoyed them immensely
none-the-less. If you hadn't have said anything I would have thought
that is what you wrote......not bad attall.......
Only thing that could have made them better is if you would have said a
few more words about the 52..........but then I understand it's an
article about the Chinese "copy" of the YAK :0
Frank
N9110M
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: article
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Well, I just got my July issue of Warbirds. Yep my "article" is in
there.
But without my knowledge, they "edited" the shit out of (it had a lot of
good
shit) it to the point it was more like a rough outline, with no
substance.
They left out a whole lot of stuff and pictures.
I sent the whole article to Mike Filucci for inclusion in the Yak
Driver. If
you guys bugged him enough maybe he'll put on it along with it's
pictures on
the web site.
Me? I think I'll just give up on writing.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC "The
reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 7/15/2003 8:25:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
yak52driver@earthlink.net writes:
>
> Jim;
> I also got my copy of Warbirds today. When I saw the back cover of the
> mag I instantly looked for any YAK related articles inside. Actually sat
> in my car at the post office to read the articles.
>
> They may have edited the articles but I enjoyed them immensely
> none-the-less. If you hadn't have said anything I would have thought
> that is what you wrote......not bad attall.......
>
> Only thing that could have made them better is if you would have said a
> few more words about the 52..........but then I understand it's an
> article about the Chinese "copy" of the YAK :0
>
> Frank
> N9110M
Frank,
Thanks. To show you how bad it was (to me) I've attached the unedited
version without the pictures (to long to up load). Let me know what you think?
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
As I said before, if he is Neal Granley and he owned NX52CG, and if his
signature is in my copy of that logbook before the a/c was mine then; He
sure signed and told the fed he spun, snapped, and lumped the -52. So, what
are we to believe? Don't do as I do but do as I say? He won't do spins so,
he'll lie to the FAA? What the ...What the... Respectfully, Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Subject: Yak-List:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Hal,
Thanks for tracking Bud down. I was beginning to feel I'd put my foot
in his mouth. Been watching him and Ross perform all week and am more
impressed with each flight.
Sad truth is a lot of very capable, proficient pilots have been killed
doing INTENTIONAL spins in airplanes they've spun many times. Too many
in our favorite airplanes, especially Yak-52's. Gene Beggs' book is a
must read for anyone serious about the subject. I saw Art Scholl do his
trademark 27 turn inverted flat spin many times at low altitude--who
would guess he would die in that airplane in an inverted flat spin?
When you know someone who is a much more capable pilot than yourself has
been killed doing a maneuver you've done in the same kind of airplane it
makes you a little more humble. Too many good people have been killed
to make blanket statements about spins being stable maneuvers, that
they should be part of every REAL pilot's training, that only wimps
avoid them etc. etc. As Beggs notes, some of our most popular trainers
(Citrabrias, C-150's) have modes that do not respond to normal recovery
techniques and every year a few discover the problem and sacrifice their
lives. Cocksure attitudes do not a recovery technique make.
Jerry Painter
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
Please don't give up. You are appreciated. Ricky B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: article
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Well, I just got my July issue of Warbirds. Yep my "article" is in there.
But without my knowledge, they "edited" the shit out of (it had a lot of
good
shit) it to the point it was more like a rough outline, with no substance.
They left out a whole lot of stuff and pictures.
I sent the whole article to Mike Filucci for inclusion in the Yak Driver.
If
you guys bugged him enough maybe he'll put on it along with it's pictures on
the web site.
Me? I think I'll just give up on writing.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yaksters;
Just wanted to say THANK YOU! for all the great responses to many of my
stupid questions. All of your help and responses have been first class.
If I have ever forgotten to say thanks to the list respondents then let
me say it now. THANKS! (Yea! That includes you too Barry, Dennis, Lee T.
Doug Sapp, etc :)
Frank
N9110M
PS Have you visited my YAK LINKS page recently?
http://home.earthlink.net/~yak52driver
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Nice article Jim!
Hope to see many of you at Osh! Heading for South America with the AF for a week,
Fly safe!
Drew
Drew Blahnick
Yak Pilots Association
All Red Star
Cell310-386-9181
www.allredstar.com
"Communism: Lousy Politics - Great Airplanes"
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Carb Cleaning / Adjustment |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Marvel Mystery oil will not rebuild a worn out carburetor, but it will
dissolve sludge and varnish and sometimes it will amaze you. I use about
double what the can says when I'm trying to "fix" something. Use the normal
amount for ongoing operations. It is also good for the oil system. Don't
brush your teeth with it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Carb Cleaning / Adjustment
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> OK
> So you've all heard of my surging engine problem at the lower altitudes.
> Seems the general consensus is that it's a carb problem. I'm inclined to
> agree with that since the carb hasn't been touched and, other than the
> time I've flown it, the plane has been sitting for the last 7 years.
>
> Before tearing into the carb for a rebuild, I'm wondering if a carb
> cleaner in the gas might be of some use? Are there any aviation related
> fuel system cleaning products out there worth a try?
>
> Thanks in advance and thanks for all the responses on this subject (yea!
> You too Barry! :)
>
> Frank
> N9110M
>
>
Message 17
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Jim,
You make sound like there is some question about whether pilots (and
humanity) has been dumbed down. My toaster came with federally mandated set
of instructions that said "do not use in the bathtub".
----- Original Message -----
From: <cjpilot710@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: spins
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> To spin or not to spin. That is the question. More likely this
generation
> of pilots and FAA are turning into wimps? Though out the history of
aviation
> aircraft have spun. It is a natural aerodynamic phenomium. Numerous
factors
> determine how well or badly a particular design spins. C/G, airfoil,
fuselage,
> rudder/elevator placement and mass distribution are just a few. Some
> airplanes spin readily and are quite safe to do so. Cubs and Champ were
and are
> perfectly safe spinners. Yaks are good spinners. To good for the
UNTRAINED.
> Good acrobatic aircraft should have very pronounced spin modes. If you
are going
> to push such aircraft to the lengths of their envelops, spins are a
natural
> consequence. Snap rolls are merely spins entered from accelerated stalls
i.e.
> a snap roll in a vertical climb is merely a spin upward. The aerodynamics
are
> the same.
>
> Some aircraft are poor spinners. Either they can't or are very difficult
to
> make spin. Or they become "stable" in the spin mode and are difficult or
> cannot be covered. Watching the spin test of the F-4 and F-14 bring to
mind such
> machines but there are a number of others.
>
> The bottom line is that you should be familiar with the full aspect of the
> airplane you flys envelope. IF it spins you should be at least familiar
with
> what it does, how to recover and than fly the airplane so as to avoid
them.
>
> That "a pro" says that he "would not ever spin an aircraft" may have been
> taken out of continence from what he really meant. Some aircraft should
never
> been spun at low altitudes on a down line, i.e., they use to much
altitude.
> Those pros who do low altitude acrobatics must be VERY familiar with the
stall
> spin character of their machines.
>
> When I was taught to fly, spins were a normal training maneuver though out
> the flying curriculum. That it has been regulated to just instructor
students,
> is to me a dumb-ing down of the flying community. A million years ago, as
a
> 17 year old private pilot, I enter an inadvertent spin, in avoiding a
midair
> collision at 800 feet in the traffic pattern. The training I had turned
the
> experience into just that and not a statistic.
>
> Jim Goolsby
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: VGs and spins - Bud's comments |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Walt,
Ever fly a SGS 2-32? If so, what were it's spin characteristics?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Fricke" <walterfricke@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: VGs and spins - Bud's comments
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Fricke <walterfricke@yahoo.com>
>
> Good post and comments by Bud here on teaching incipient spin recognition
and recovery.
>
> I taught spins in sailplanes years ago and had one VERY memorable occasion
with booming thermals in which the newly minted commercial pilot and I took
the K-13 up and down in a series of 7 to10 turn spins and recoveries for
about an hour. Thought I had taught him all he needed to know about spins.
The next weekend he was "stretching the glide" in a 1-26 when a slightly
cross controlled turn from base to final put him over the top in a snap
entry to an unrecoverable spin into the ground. Fortunately the tube
structure of the Schwiezer saved his life.....but not before busting his
legs almost beyond recognition.
>
> I learned more about what's important in spin instruction in 10 seconds
(on hearing of his accident) than all the "fully developed" spin recovery
I'd been taught and practiced while getting my instructor's rating.
>
>
> And for Al Devere: Come to OSH (MTW) and get your first good night's
sleep in weeks! (You'd better be pulling triple duty until then though!)
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Walt
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Yakjock"
>
> Lads and Lassies,
>
> The following are two emails Bud Granley sent back to me after I forwarded
the comments from the Yak List to him.
>
> Like Jerry Painter, I've watched Bud's shows and have had the pleasure to
fly with him and his son Ross. Both are outstanding pilots and people. Bud
is something along the lines of Pappy Goolsby: knowledgeable and happy to
share (and a wee bit thinner).
>
> Bud and Ross fly a Yak 55, Yak 18T, Fouga and a T-6.
>
>
> Hi Hal:
>
> I love the VG's. I had mine done at Arlington. You might talk to the
fellows there this week. Paul Robertson did mine.
>
> I picked up 10 % on the stall, already have a rivet bumpy wing.
>
> Eddie Andreini Yak-9's stall went from 94 to 72 knots on the stall. His
wing is verrry smooth.
>
> Spinning!!! I recommend that people practice accelerated stalls to the
flick, and avoid going into the spin. Spins kill people. Recognizing the pre
spin stall and recovery is much more useful.
>
> See you at Arlington, Bud
>
>
> Hi Hal:
>
> Wow! I will have to buy Jerry a drink or two, or possibly he's already had
a couple.
>
> Go ahead and post the response. On spins; It's not that I don't ever do
them, but I emphasize that training yourself to recover the airplane before
it goes into an accidental spin, and being aware that an abrupt pull of the
stick at low speed may result in a spin. Once an unintentional spin is at
low altitude is entered, a world of hurt has been entered.
>
> (Hal's note: The following refers to a fatal crash of a Yak 52 in
Washington State two or so years ago. The "Alex" referred to was the Russian
fighter pilot who defected some years ago with his plane and later wrote a
book about it. The two men - both pilots - had been flying with several
other airplanes, got out ahead and were asked to come back around to the
formation / gaggle. On turning back at slow speed the pilot flying stalled
the airplane. Bud owned the plane.)
>
> On the Yak-52 accident, the aircraft was stalled at 1200 feet, and the
stick was held back for the subsequent fall to the ground. The aircraft was
trying to fly, but responded to the stick inputs. It hit the ground with the
tail first in a falling leaf type descent. Recovery would have been
immediate had they let the airplane get its head with a little speed, even
though pointing at the ground. We had done many airshows and been totally
tumbled much lower than that altitude. I suspect that Mike wasn't able to
over power Alex, who had a history it turns out of grabbing the stick and
resorting to panic. The first picture of ground rush after the first snap
resulted in a series of stalls trying to avoid the ground. The airplane
would have loved to have gotten a couple of more knots.
>
>
> Bud
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 19
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
It is clearly legal for you to pay a CFI for training you in your
experimental plane and for him to accept payment for the training.
In his plane, no. Although lots of people will argue about it. Some
instructors charge for ground school and give away the flight... How stupid
do you think the FAA is? Are their judges just as stupid?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Spins
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Doug,
>
> Didn't see you at Peter's last nite--or the Granleys. Guess they've gone
> to another show. I was hoping to talk more to them about spins.
> Another time. I can't be there tonite--honeydos.
>
> Back to spins. I don't make any claims for skill or experience, but I
> have spun many airplanes many times and never had a (serious) problem.
> When I started flying Yak-52's I was a little concerned about their
> reputation for entering unintentional flat spins power on, particularly
> out of hammerheads, and the fact that several well known, experienced,
> capable pilots had been killed in them. Incidentally, the factory
> "placards" new -52's (W's and TW's)--uncertified airplanes even in their
> home countries--against flat spins, in the pilot's manual (not exactly a
> "placard" in FAA-speak). Don't know what the designers, factory, DOSAAF
> or similar organizations said about the military models, which are
> slightly different. I know several people who've had good scares
> spinning "spinnable" airplanes and, again, I make no claims. I had
> never done inverted or flat spins before I got a -52. But I like doing
> spins and lazy acro.
>
> So, I did what I think we all agree is the sensible thing. I went
> looking for training. I watched Yak-52 training videos. I read books.
> I talked to someone I knew was fully conversant with the airplanes: Bud
> Granley. I was surprised by his response (which is why I mentioned it).
> Don't spin it says Bud. I have a lot of respect for Bud. We don't know
> each other well and we've never flown together so he may have been
> trying to keep me (a presumably inept, inexperienced pilot--smart guess)
> out of trouble, but I took him at his word. Various things prevented me
> from flying with Bud, so that didn't work out. Coincidentally, a year
> or so later two good men were killed in his -52. Sounds like it wasn't
> really a spin accident, was avoidable and not the airplane's fault, but
> it happened. Would additional training have saved them? I assume Bud
> had confidence in their ability and had probably given them some
> instruction or he wouldn't have let them fly his airplane. Mike had
> already survived one accident, so I suppose he was a little more
> cautious than when younger. Alex probably had military training in
> -52's. Am I a better pilot than they were? I don't know, but I doubt
> it. Especially now that I can't see, am getting old, fat, dumb, ugly
> and stupid. Howzabout you? We're not getting paid to be test pilots.
> Don't think anyone would hire me and this is not a good field for the
> self-employed.
>
> Anyway, to continue my story, I went looking for and got some more
> training in aerobatics and especially flat and inverted spins, in a
> Pitts, not exactly a -52, but which I'd never flown before and always
> wanted to. Is it legal to give or get spin--or any other training in a
> CJ or -52? And pay/get paid for it? "Qualified" instructors usually
> expect to get paid. Can you train someone/be trained in your airplane
> or does it have to be/can it be their airplane? Does anyone offer it?
> Does the EAA have to be involved? I don't quite understand the FAA
> position at the moment--maybe I should say I'm a little confused and
> that is definitely part of the problem--can anyone out there help?
>
> So, I was in Phoenix and hooked up with Budd Davisson in Scottsdale and
> we flew his S-2A. Lots of fun. But he didn't want to spin it. We
> talked about Art Scholl and his accident, which was in an S-2A. Budd
> felt about his S-2A about like I did about my -52. Budd has a lot of
> experience in Pittses, flying and instructing. I think he is not only
> "qualified," but smart, too, especially flying with some unknown like
> me. He referred me to another instructor at Deer Valley (whose name
> escapes me--Sonny _____--maybe somebody out there knows him--a fearless
> fellow and terrific pilot) and we did flat and inverted flat spins in
> his S-2C. More fun. Impressive rate of rotation and rate of descent.
> Three full turns to recover. "Low" altitude may mean almost "any"
> altitude. A Pitts may not be a Yak, but you can't say they're
> unresponsive, heavy on the controls or untested.
>
> I still haven't spun a -52. Not sure I ever will (OK, OK, I hear the
> heckles already!). CJ-6's really don't spin, at least not for long. I
> haven't tried to spin one inverted, accelerated or power on--and don't
> intend to. A few weeks ago two more people were killed in Utah spinning
> a -52. Now a widow has a beautiful Stearman for sale. Sad. We worry
> about the wings on older -52's, which are +7, -5. Never heard much
> concern for or discussion of G-limits on CJ's, which are almost all way
> higher time than -52's. I know of CJ's with stress cracking in wing
> skins. Are there any Nanchang factory bulletins? Decent manuals?
> Fortunately, there are bulletins and manuals (sort of) for -52's. Never
> heard of wings coming off a -52, bulletins or no. But people flat spin
> them, "placards" or not, intentionally and unintentionally.
>
> Yak-52's are terrific airplanes, that's why I have one. I love CJ's and
> hope to get another one. But I'm much more careful about spins in -52's
> than I ever was in my CJ. And I've loved my -52's. I've never seen a
> nicer -52 or CJ than the ones I have/had (though I know there are many
> nice -52's and CJ's out there) and I've had full confidence in them.
> Mostly. Love those airplanes, especially the CJ. My wife and kids
> loved it. I loved to give rides in it, including spins and acro and it
> was even pretty good for x-c. But I am concerned about lurking dragons.
>
> Lots of people are doing mods on their CJ's and -52's, including me. Do
> the mods affect spin recovery? What does the Nanchang factory say about
> spinning CJ's? Mods? My experience with the Aerostar folk (Yak-52
> mfr.) as a dealer for them does not bolster my confidence in -52's.
>
> When I was a student pilot I wanted spin training, and got it. Got more
> for my CFI. Took aerobatic instruction. Like lazy aerobatics, have
> given a little acro instruction but make no claims. I've given lots of
> spin training. Never had a problem. I head about Beggs' techniques, so
> I read his book. He says C-150's and Citabrias have modes that don't
> respond to the usual techniques. Maybe that's why CFI's and their
> students get killed in spin training and the mfrs./FAA are a little
> sensitive. Beggs has explored the subject way more than me, so I'll
> believe him for now. I've done lots of instructing in C-150's and
> Citabrias including lots of spins. Us Yaksters are living in an
> "experimental exhibition" world without the benefit of testing by Gene
> Beggs, the support of the FAA, military, the designers or factory with
> our CJ's and -52's.
>
> I, too, have friends who died in perfectly good airplanes. Tested the
> limits a few times myself. That's why I am much more careful than I
> used to be.
>
> Jerry Painter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
> To: Jerry Painter
> Subject: Spins
>
>
> Jerry wrote:
>
> > Sad truth is a lot of very capable, proficient pilots have been killed
> > doing INTENTIONAL spins in airplanes they've spun many times. Too
> many
> > in our favorite airplanes, especially Yak-52's.
>
> You have left out the key phrase here "close to the ground" To condemn
> all intentional spins, I believe is as big of a mistake as practicing
> them close to the ground. If you have questions about your aircraft's
> performance in various configurations get some dual from a qualified
> instructor.
>
> From high altitudes, too. I'm not condemning spins. I am condemning
> generalizations, flippant remarks, irresponsibility and complacency,
> including the common belief that because you've had training/experience,
> you're immune. Yak-52's are placarded against flat spins, and
> apparently, enter them easily at inopportune times, but people keep
> doing them. The point is, if a skilled professional can get killed
> doing something entered with engineering support, extensive testing,
> experience and forethought and after lots and lots of practice, how much
> more dangerous is an intentional or unintentional spin done by you or me
> in an airplane type with a checkered/unknown history? What about a
> rookie? I'm not a rookie. But, as they say, don't try this at home.
> What I'm saying is spins are dangerous and seldom treated with the
> respect they require. And training is not always the answer. Would
> additional training and preparation have saved Art Scholl? The "close
> to the ground part" is not necessarily the operative condition. What is
> a "qualified" instructor? The FAA says I'm a qualified instructor. Not
> bloody likely when it comes to spins in Yak-52's or CJ's. Is anyone?
> What do the designers/factory say on the matter? How can you be
> "qualified" in an airplane with no data? Was Art Scholl qualified in
> S-2A's? In spins there lie terra incognita. Contrary to what I usually
> say, the FAA is probably right to license these airplanes as
> "experimental exhibition." (Another subject altogether.)
>
> I don't want to explore their "Unusual Characteristics."
>
> >Gene Beggs' book is a
> > must read for anyone serious about the subject. I saw Art Scholl do
> his
> > trademark 27 turn inverted flat spin many times at low altitude--who
> > would guess he would die in that airplane in an inverted flat spin?
>
> Art Scholl died in a inverted flat spin into the ocean while practicing
> his airshow routine. Again doing intentional spins at low altitude. I
> don't want to sound cold but this was his business, he well knew the
> risks.
>
> Actually, he was filming for a movie, in his S-2A, an airplane he had
> performed the same maneuver in many, many, many, many times. I don't
> know what altitude, but doubt it was "low." He made a radio call saying
> he was in an inverted flat spin and had a "problem," but apparently no
> description of the problem. And he wasn't just an "airshow" or "movie"
> pilot, he was also a world-class, champion competition pilot. Way
> better than me and probably better than any of us reading the Yak list.
> If you think airshow pilots are intentionally doing maneuvers whose
> outcome they're uncertain of, I think you're mistaken. The altitude is
> a secondary concern. Risky? Dangerous? Of course. Uncertain of the
> outcome? NFW.
>
> > When you know someone who is a much more capable pilot than yourself
> has
> > been killed doing a maneuver you've done in the same kind of airplane
> it
> > makes you a little more humble.
>
> And well it should, for if we do not learn from others mistakes, we are
> doomed to repeat them ourselves. (we need to tell the folks in
> Washington that:>)
>
> There is a big difference between a CFI/trainee doing a three turn spin
> or a student being demonstrated/demonstrating entries and recoveries in
> a C-150 or Citabria and doing intentional or unintentional spins,
> especially inverted flat spins, in an "experimental" airplane.
> Especially in an airplane you're unsure of, regardless of certification,
> training or experience, which is the definition of "experimental." Even
> C-150's and Citabrias, to say nothing of Pittses and Yak-52's, have
> killed more than a few. I know of no exceptions. Train, yes, even
> student pilots, but avoid spins--and every other maneuver--unless you
> are absolutely certain of the outcome.
>
> >Too many good people have been killed
> > to make blanket statements about spins being stable maneuvers, that
> > they should be part of every REAL pilot's training, that only wimps
> > avoid them etc. etc.
>
> Jerry, if you think my reference to the fact that I had to do a 3 turn
> spin and recover on a heading was bravado or bragging your are dead
> wrong. I have lost two friends to spin accidents, both pilots simply
> got behind the aircraft and failed to recognize the problem in time to
> save themselves. One accident took the life of the pilot, his wife and
> their 10 month baby. Had they had spin training, learned the procedures
> they just might of had a chance to live to fly another day, but they did
> not have the training, did not see the signs, so they paid the maximum
> price. No one has posted any reference to wimps or REAL pilots. If my
> strong opinion on the topic offends you I am honestly sorry, but in my
> opinion if you don't do everything in your power to learn as much as you
> can about how your aircraft will respond in all of its various
> configurations, you are in fact short changing your self and your gib,
> who ever he/she may be on the day when/if it happens to you.
>
> I agree completely. But there is a void out there, especially regarding
> Yaks and CJ's, which is my whole point. Test at your own risk--you may
> be the first to try something that's never done before.
> Generalizations, flippant, casual and denigrating remarks make no
> positive contribution. This is a serious subject.
>
> As Beggs notes, some of our most popular trainers
> > (Citrabrias, C-150's) have modes that do not respond to normal
> recovery
> > techniques and every year a few discover the problem and sacrifice
> their
> > lives.
>
> If we know it to be fact, then we should either know those "modes" and
> placard against them or better yet further our knowledge and learn the
> correct method of recovery from a qualified instructor. To do anything
> less would be to just "wink" at the problem which you know to be real
> and dangerous. It was not an intentional spin that took the lives of
> my friends, it was their lack of knowledge about the aircraft they were
> flying. In the case of Art Scholl and every other airshow pilot who has
> died doing what they loved I would have to suggest to you that they were
> "in the business" to take risks and like a good friend once said "if you
> continue to get into the lions cage every day, sooner or later you will
> get bit". While this adage applies best to the air show pilot it also
> applies to a lesser degree to us all.
>
> The factory (and I think Yakovlev, too) "placards" Yak-52's against flat
> spins. So I don't want to try one, though I want to know as much as I
> can learn about them, especially knowing spins are a concern. I don't
> think much of Aerostar, but I'll take their word on this one. What do
> the Nanchang factory folk say? Anything? Chinese military? Is there
> any authoritative data? People keep spinning -52's and CJ's,
> intentionally and unintentionally. Some get killed. It's possible no
> one has ever seen the lion that waits to bite YOU.
>
> A while back I saw a TV program that included film of spin testing
> F-18's. A military test pilot was trying every entry and spin mode they
> could think of to try to discover anything unexpected and means of
> dealing with the unexpected. Really interesting stuff. This was part
> of a continuous testing program that was ongoing while the airplanes
> were in service. The airplanes are already fully tested, accepted by
> the military, in operational combat service, pilots thoroughly trained,
> but they keep testing and training for new phenomena. I don't know what
> the spin record of F-18's is, but I'd bet the military, like
> professional airshow performers and competition aerobatics pilots, is
> much more comprehensive with testing and training than the FAA
> requirements or what is available to a Yak/CJ pilot. And while I'll bet
> the military record is better than ours, I'd bet people still get killed
> in spins in F-18's.
>
> Nobody's paying me to be a test pilot and I'm not sure I'd want the job.
> I'm getting old enough to want to die in my bed. And I like to spin
> airplanes! But I'll let someone else do the testing and I'm not going
> to spin any airplane I'm uncertain of. I'm not even sure about C-150's
> and Citabrias any more.
>
> >Cocksure attitudes do not a recovery technique make.
>
> I could not agree with you more, but instruction, practice, and a full
> working knowledge of our aircraft will go a long way to keeping us all
> alive.
>
> I agree. Nevertheless, spins are complex phenomena that deserve a lot
> more respect than they get. Just because someone gets "training" and
> practices doesn't mean sudden death is not a possibility. I'm a CFI,
> have had a fair amount of training, have been instructing, off and on,
> for thirty years, I've done lots of spins, including in CJ's and many
> other airplanes, but I'm not going to spin or give anyone spin training
> in a CJ (again--though I have), let alone in a -52. I don't think I'm
> "qualified." I think Bud is right. Spins kill people and should be
> avoided, especially by us weekenders in unknown airplanes. Get the
> training etc. etc., but avoid spins. Like Bud says, recover at the
> flick. Leave the serious stuff to trained professionals who are getting
> paid. We are the test pilots for these "experimental" airplanes,
> especially if they've been modified, and we're not qualified, paid or
> supported. It's a dangerous job--don't mention it to your life
> insurance agent.
>
> The interesting part of all this is that what I started out to say was
> that VG's really do work. That's something I would like to test on a
> -52 or CJ. Maybe they can even help spin recoveries.
>
> I'm going to post this to the list--hope you don't mind. Sorry to keep
> floggin' the dog, but it's an important subject. Too many have already
> died.
>
> Keep Yakkin and be careful out there.
>
> Hope to see you at Arlington.
>
> Next year.
>
>
> Always yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
>
Message 20
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 7/16/2003 12:56:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
l39parts@hotmail.com writes:
> Jim,
>
> You make sound like there is some question about whether pilots (and
> humanity) has been dumbed down. My toaster came with federally mandated set
> of instructions that said "do not use in the bathtub".
>
Yep,
My point exactly. God save us from bureaucrats and do gooders.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 21
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Frank,
The reason Gene Beggs got involved in spin research was that he had a
Pitts and people were getting killed in them doing spins. He was
National Aerobatic Champion, flying a Pitts. Mostly his research was
done many years ago (70's?). As you say, people are still getting
killed. Presumably, people doing aerobatics, especially in something
like a Pitts, must be fair to middlin' pilots with more than a modicum
of experience to begin with. Spins must be a dangerous maneuver, even
in the "spinnable" Pitts, eh? Seems to run in cycles, even in well
documented airplanes like Pitts.
My Pitts experience is practically none but sure was fun. I've only
flown the S-2A and S-2C and didn't spin the -2A. Spun the -2C upright,
inverted and flat, no problems, great fun. But it took three full turns
to recover from a fully developed (5 turns) flat spin (upright). Very
impressive to an acro amateur used to spinning Citabrias etc. I ain't
no expert, but no rookie, neither. Haven't done any fully developed
IFS's. As has been said many times, there is no substitute for
training, and as the Kings are now trying to emphasize in their training
materials, sensible risk evaluation and preparation.
I suppose most of us flying -52's have the read reports indicating it
may take a very substantial push on the rudder and up to a 200 lb. stick
push to recover from a fully developed flat spin. Now that I'm old, fat
and ugly, I don't know that I could muster that kind of push. Hell, I
can't hardly do situps anymore! And the older I get (and I'm only 57)
the more easily scareder and mentally absent I become--tho I think I'm
smarter than I used to be...more cautious, anyway.
Bud Granley's -55 has VG's on it (wing only, I think). I didn't get to
talk to him last week about spins/VG's, but know he's quite enthusiastic
about their effects. Another fellow I know has VG's on his -52TW and
understand there was an impressive reduction in stall speed. A drop
from 92 to 74 (?) is pretty amazing (Yak-9). Anybody else have any
experience with VG's on -52's or CJ's? How 'bout VG's on vert/horiz
stabs? Would love to see someone develop some data (especially about
stall/spin recovery effects) and kits.
I know this discussion may be of no interest to the more aerobatically
proficient among us, and offer my apologies, but for us not so adept
there may be some value. I'd especially like to hear from those
highly-skilled folk since I'm fairly fond of my butt, such as it is, and
would love to learn from their experience. Not that reading is a
substitute for in-the-airplane-flight-training, but its a definite part
of that training. Don't know of many available avenues, especially for
Yaks.
I've been fortunate to fly with lots of pilots of all experience and
skill levels and have found that skill isn't always proportionate to
experience, tho experience sure don't hurt. Mechanical subjects are
always interesting (I'm just about finished with A&P school), but I've
always loved talking about stick and rudder stuff. There's lots of
confusion out there, I think, even about basic stuff. Watched a 75 yo
pilot ground loop his Grumman TBF (?) Avenger last week (fortunately, no
damage) and sometimes wonder if, for some of us at least, the warbird
thang don't sometimes push us beyond our personal envelopes for even
basic stuff. Sure is fun, tho! As the coach always said, keep
practicing the fundamentals because the advanced stuff is just the
fundamentals done in combination.
Jerry
Time: 05:41:44 PM PST US
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Spins
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
--> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Jerry;
Someone I know just informed me that his buddy died spinning a Pitts. He
never came out of the spin. What's your recommendation on spinning the
supposedly "spinnable" Pitts?
Frank
N9110M
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Carb Cleaning / Adjustment |
--> Yak-List message posted by: William Halverson <william@netpros.net>
OK Gents ....
So ... what changes in performance may happen if I use it 'double
strength' in a 120 hr SMOH M-14PF that uses 1 liter every 2 hours now?
I use Phillips X/C 25W-60.
Does it reduce friction?
Is this stuff an engine treatment of some kind, or
Is it an oil treatment?
What does it do in a MICROLON'd engine?
To get its best benefits, should I :
- put it into clean oil after an oil change, run it for [some specified]
hours, then change the oil again, or
- put it into the existing [now] dirty oil and run it to the next change, or
- blend it into any oil I put in the engine on some defined ratio,
regardless of the hours since the last oil change, hence wise into the
foreseeable, but smoggy, future?
AND, dear group, please accept my humble praise for the wisdom,
wackiness, and soul you all add to the postings I am privileged to read
herein [trolls excepted].
Bill [DAMN I like chemistry] Halverson
Ron wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>Marvel Mystery oil will not rebuild a worn out carburetor, but it will
>dissolve sludge and varnish and sometimes it will amaze you. I use about
>double what the can says when I'm trying to "fix" something. Use the normal
>amount for ongoing operations. It is also good for the oil system. Don't
>brush your teeth with it.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Yak-List: Carb Cleaning / Adjustment
>
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