---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/20/03: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:02 AM - "Found Man" Formation (Alan Cockrell) 2. 06:27 AM - Re: Assistance in S. Florida (Brian Lloyd) 3. 06:28 AM - Re: "Found Man" Formation (Brian Lloyd) 4. 11:46 AM - Re: Assistance in S. Florida (Brian Lloyd) 5. 11:47 AM - Re: "Found Man" Formation (Lee Taylor) 6. 11:53 AM - Re: "Found Man" Formation (Lee Taylor) 7. 12:01 PM - Re: "Found Man" Formation (Brian Lloyd) 8. 02:21 PM - Re: Assistance in S. Florida (cjpilot710@aol.com) 9. 04:26 PM - Re: "Found Man" Formation (Terry Calloway) 10. 05:33 PM - Re: "Found Man" Formation (Lee Taylor) 11. 06:29 PM - Re: "Found Man" Formation (Brian Lloyd) 12. 07:59 PM - Brian Lloyd > Re: "Found Man" Formation (Alan Cockrell) 13. 08:05 PM - Re: Assistance in S. Florida (Ernie) 14. 10:25 PM - I-3 (Barry Hancock) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:21 AM PST US From: "Alan Cockrell" Subject: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: "Alan Cockrell" Does anyone know if the following has ever been done before? A wedding seremony was held yesteday at our airfield. We offered a formation flyby as a tribute to the couple, and the bridegroom, Johnny Hooper, requested it be a missing man formation. We thought that may be a little insensitive for the bride so we flew a "found man" formation. The flight was composed of a Mooney in the lead, with 2 Yak-52s and a CJ-6 in finger-tip formation. The flight came over the wedding party with a hole where number 3 should be. We picked Gordy Seuell, our most skilled formation pilot, to be number 3. It challenged him but he pulled into the hole at the precise moment. It was a neat idea that even impressed the minister, who took notes to prepare a future serman on the Found Man Formation. I'm thinking that this is a new invention and am posting notice that, unless anyone else claims to have seen it before, it was invented on July 19, 2003 at Moontown Airfield, Huntsville, Alabama. Alan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:06 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Assistance in S. Florida --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: > Brain, > How can I help? I'm free the next four days. Thanks Jim. I appreciate your offer of assistance. I have written you private email. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:03 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Alan Cockrell wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Alan Cockrell" > > Does anyone know if the following has ever been done before? I have never heard of it but trying to pull into #3 of a fingertip formation strikes me as somewhat hazardous since #3 has to join/pass #4 and transition to joining on #1. It isn't something I would try. If I were doing something similar, I would have #4 pull up into the slot in a diamond formation. #4 has a clear underrun path if the join-up goes bad. The interesting thing about this approach is it has other interesting connotations for a wedding ceremony, especially if #4 has a problem with fore/aft stationkeeping (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:25 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Assistance in S. Florida --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: > Brain, > How can I help? I'm free the next four days. > Jim Goolsby Hey Pappy, what's your phone number? -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:55 AM PST US From: "Lee Taylor" Subject: RE: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Alan Cockrell wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Alan Cockrell" > > Does anyone know if the following has ever been done before? I have never heard of it but trying to pull into #3 of a fingertip formation strikes me as somewhat hazardous since #3 has to join/pass #4 and transition to joining on #1. It isn't something I would try. If I were doing something similar, I would have #4 pull up into the slot in a diamond formation. #4 has a clear underrun path if the join-up goes bad. The interesting thing about this approach is it has other interesting connotations for a wedding ceremony, especially if #4 has a problem with fore/aft stationkeeping (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). ------------------------------------------- THIS sounds like fun! If I was #4, that would be the sloppiest, weavingest, teasingingest flying ever done! #4, being outside and unrestricted, could do a lot of puppy-dog antics. Would definitely want some good formation people. We had an RV formation show at Longmont here a couple of weeks ago, and it was a l-i-t-t-l-e scary. Not at all dangerous, just not competent. And then there was the T-28 demo. THOSE GUYS WERE GOOD! Really fun to watch. Lee Taylor -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:50 AM PST US From: "Lee Taylor" Subject: RE: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Cockrell Subject: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: "Alan Cockrell" Does anyone know if the following has ever been done before? A wedding seremony was held yesteday at our airfield. We offered a formation flyby as a tribute to the couple, and the bridegroom, Johnny Hooper, requested it be a missing man formation. We thought that may be a little insensitive for the bride so we flew a "found man" formation. The flight was composed of a Mooney in the lead, with 2 Yak-52s and a CJ-6 in finger-tip formation. The flight came over the wedding party with a hole where number 3 should be. We picked Gordy Seuell, our most skilled formation pilot, to be number 3. It challenged him but he pulled into the hole at the precise moment. It was a neat idea that even impressed the minister, who took notes to prepare a future serman on the Found Man Formation. I'm thinking that this is a new invention and am posting notice that, unless anyone else claims to have seen it before, it was invented on July 19, 2003 at Moontown Airfield, Huntsville, Alabama. Alan I think this is a GREAT idea, Alan. 55 years of being an aviation nut, I have never heard of it before. CONGRATULATIONS! This is a POSITIVE flight, without the sad connotations of the missing man. Would give aviation watchers a wonderful, nice image, rather than dwelling on the negative, sad things. Lee Taylor ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:57 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Lee Taylor wrote: > THIS sounds like fun! If I was #4, that would be the sloppiest, > weavingest, teasingingest flying ever done! #4, being outside and > unrestricted, could do a lot of puppy-dog antics. Well, I was thinking of a diamond formation with #4 tucked into the slot behind #1 and between #2 and #3. Think of #4 just slide'n right up into that vee. > Would definitely want some good formation people. We had an RV > formation show at Longmont here a couple of weeks ago, and it was a > l-i-t-t-l-e scary. Not at all dangerous, just not competent. There are too many things that can go wrong. It isn't worth your life to try to fly with people who haven't been trained and don't understand. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:01 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Assistance in S. Florida --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com 386-467-3313 Jim Goolsby "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin 1759 "With my shield, or on it" Trojan Warriors BC "The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes until some woman stomps all over them." Unknown older man. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:29 PM PST US From: "Terry Calloway" Subject: Re: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: "Terry Calloway" Sounds like "You know your a RedNeck Pilot when your friends fly the Found Man formation at your wedding.". ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:57 PM PST US From: "Lee Taylor" Subject: RE: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Lee Taylor wrote: > THIS sounds like fun! If I was #4, that would be the sloppiest, > weavingest, teasingingest flying ever done! #4, being outside and > unrestricted, could do a lot of puppy-dog antics. Well, I was thinking of a diamond formation with #4 tucked into the slot behind #1 and between #2 and #3. Think of #4 just slide'n right up into that vee. > Would definitely want some good formation people. We had an RV > formation show at Longmont here a couple of weeks ago, and it was a > l-i-t-t-l-e scary. Not at all dangerous, just not competent. There are too many things that can go wrong. It isn't worth your life to try to fly with people who haven't been trained and don't understand. Brian, your comments are very, VERY true. But for competent people, I think this is still a great idea, one that can be worked on so that it would be safe. Lee Taylor -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:38 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Lee Taylor wrote: >> Well, I was thinking of a diamond formation with #4 tucked into the slot >> behind #1 and between #2 and #3. Think of #4 just slide'n right up into >> that vee. > > ... > Brian, your comments are very, VERY true. But for competent > people, I think this is still a great idea, one that can be worked on so > that it would be safe. Trying to join into the #3 position in a finger-4 formation strikes me as just too dangerous. I can't see a good way to make that safe but others with more experience than I might have a different thought. That is why I suggested joining into the diamond since there is a clear underrun path for the #4 man joining up. Besides, as I said, it has other interesting connotations. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:36 PM PST US From: "Alan Cockrell" Subject: Yak-List: Brian Lloyd > Re: "Found Man" Formation --> Yak-List message posted by: "Alan Cockrell" >>>Trying to join into the #3 position in a finger-4 formation strikes me as just too dangerous. I can't see a good way to make that safe but others with more experience than I might have a different thought. That is why I suggested joining into the diamond since there is a clear underrun path for the #4 man joining up. Besides, as I said, it has other interesting connotations.<<< Brian, There is no easy and totally safe way to do this. That's why we picked a Fighter Weapons School graduate with F-4, F-5, and A-7 time to do it. Joing into the slot position in the diamond is easy if moving laterally from the wing, but it is tricky when joing from a high energy staight ahead closure. An overshoot would result in a dangerous underrun of the leader. Conversely, joining in the traditional fingertip slot would provide a straight ahead escape path in case of an overshoot. This is better, especially if the overshoot contingency is prebriefed. Alan ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:14 PM PST US From: "Ernie" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Assistance in S. Florida --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" I have room Ernie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lloyd" Subject: Yak-List: Assistance in S. Florida > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > Would any of you in S. Florida be willing to play host to my Aztec for a week or two? Seems that Tropical Depression 6 has us boresighted. I may need to get my airplane off the island by tomorrow or Monday in order to have time to get my boat to a safe anchorage. > > For that matter, is there anyone on the list who is current in a Piper Aztec who might like an all-expenses paid trip to the US Virgin Islands in the next three days? > > I was hoping to have swapped the Aztec for the Comanche which my wife can fly but it didn't happen in time. Now I have two vehicles for which I am the only one in my family here qualified to operate. > -- > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 > brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 > +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax > GMT-4 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:50 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: I-3 From: Barry Hancock --> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock > > > Barry, > > How is the new fire breathing, dogfighting machine of yours (Interovia > E-3)? > > By now that thing should be breaking all kinds of envelopes records > over the > CJ. > > Hope all is well and keep us informed on the E-3 progress and what you > find > while flying it. > > Enquiring minds what to know........... > > Mark "SHREK" Schrick The Interavia I-3 (Russians pronounce "I" as "E") is getting a going over and I'm not going to "explore the envelope" until I have Sergei in my back seat in mid-August. For now, just trying like heck to get the CJ ready in time for OSH.... Barrry > Barry Hancock Director of Operations Red Stars, Inc. 949.300.5510 www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"