Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:57 AM - Re: Radium (was: A heads up) (Gus Fraser)
2. 11:36 AM - Re: air system charging (Jim Ivey)
3. 12:18 PM - Re: air system charging (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 01:02 PM - Re:Yak-List air system charging (Frank Stelwagon)
5. 01:16 PM - Re: Re:Yak-List air system charging (A. Dennis Savarese)
6. 01:22 PM - Re: air system charging (Genzlinger, Reade)
7. 01:31 PM - Re: Yak-List air system charging (Jon Boede)
8. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: Yak-List air system charging (Jim Ivey)
9. 02:36 PM - Re: air system charging (Brian Lloyd)
10. 07:24 PM - HOME! (cjpilot710@aol.com)
11. 10:11 PM - Re: HOME! (Yakjock)
12. 11:25 PM - Home from OSHKOSH (Drew Blahnick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Radium (was: A heads up) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Oh no I can see my aircraft being impounded by the EPA any day now. The mags
switch is also a glower. Personally I am lucky if I get 100 hours a hear. I
live next to a US Naval weapons facility. This concerns me far more than the
odd hour in my Yak.
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Radium (was: A heads up)
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Doug wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Brian,
> The text below is from my friend in Australia. very interesting. I am
> sending a ball to the National Lab on Monday.
Well, before you get too carried away, try the "glow in the dark" test I
proposed. That will give you an idea as to whether it is Radium or just
fluorescent material.
> Hi Doug,
>
> Sunday just drawing to a close over here.
>
> I took my radiation meters to the CJ today and what I found disturbed me.
>
> Firstly as we know the undercart and Flap knobs were hot, and the throttle
> handle took my meter to about 5 mR(much more than the Flap or U/C). But
the
> first disturbing point was that the Front cockpit (more worn) had about
half
> the readings, showing that the material was being removed by the
occupants.
I presume that is 5 milli REM per hour (REM=Roentgen Equivalent in Man).
How dangerous is this dosage? Well, the US government says that under 5000
mREM per year is OK. So you could be exposed to 5 mREM/hr for 1000 hours
and still be safe. And that measurment was probably right up against the
knob. A few inches away it is attenuated even more. Clothing attenuates it
even more. Based on this, you had better not keep that throttle knob
pressed up against your naked crotch any longer than 1000 hours every year.
Heck, in my best year I flew my CJ about 350 hours and I didn't keep the
throttle knob pressed up against my head or my crotch. I didn't put it in
my mouth either. I don't think I am going to worry too much.
I am presuming that he is using a geiger counter designed to respond to
alpha and beta particles. It is designed to let them pass into the
geiger-mueller tube where they can be counted. That doesn't mean that they
necessarily pose a threat because they can still be stopped by clothing,
paper, skin, aluminum foil, etc. So even tho' the counter can count them
doesn't mean that any of that radiation is actually able to penetrate your
body and do any harm.
Here is a doc from the State of California Hazmat training on radiation
exposure. It is directly applicable to this thread. Read it and make up
your own mind.
http://www.oes.ca.gov/oeshomep.nsf/0/844b55f68729ac0088256a3a0072f998/$FILE/
SM%20CHAP%2013_5%20RAD%20DETECTORS.doc
> The most distrurbing point was that when I stepped away from the aircraft,
> my hand was giving measurable readings after minimal contact.
And before anyone gets too carried away, have him pick up a handful of dirt
from the ground and measure it. It will have a measurable reading too. I
don't notice anyone worrying about the background radiation in plain old
dirt.
> I'm going to try and get Our Radiation Health boys to come up some ideas,
> I'll keep you posted.
Fine, but let's not get carried away here. This is not life-threatening.
> Have you worked out any priced elevator solutions for me?
Now your elevator price is far more likely to hurt him than the radiation
is. His heart might stop and that *IS* life threatening. ;
)
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jim Ivey <jim@jimivey.com>
Al:
Nitrogen works great in your M14-P air system. Engine should start
normally. This has been a topic of debate by various operators in the
past but remember the inert nitrogen is injected on the down part of the
power stroke and exhausted on the next and is not part in the combustion
process. If the starting air did have anything to do with the
combustion process you would be missing the fuel part of the equation
coming from the carburetor. Remember it is the metered fuel/air mixture
from the carburetor that really starts the engine and that comes in to
the cylinders on the intake stroke rather than the power stroke.
I have used Nitrogen interchangeably with compressed air in the M14 air
system for years. Works just as good for starting as regular air.
Jim Ivey
>
>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Alan" <ap_bronco@hotmail.com>
>>
>>Need some help.
>>
>>I inadvertently left my air valve open the other day after securing my
>>
>>
>Yak-52. A few days later I found the main air bottle at zero. I towed the
>a/c over to the local FBO to recharge the system with nitrogen. My external
>air fitting has been modified to accept a schrader valve. We refilled the
>system to about 4 atm on the main bottle with the main valve open. When the
>mechanic disconnected the hoses and started to remove the schrader valve all
>of the air leaked back out of the external fill port. Would there be a
>stuck check valve somewhere? Any ideas how to fix this? This has been the
>first time I've recharged using the external fill port. I have a 1996
>Yak-52. Air system is very tight. Never have had any problems with the air
>system. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Al Bromka
>>
>>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Jim,
All your statements are true except for the fact that on the initial attempt
to start the engine, fuel in forced into the cylinders via the primer pump
(not the carburetor) and air (or nitrogen in your example) is injected into
the cylinder just a couple of degrees after TDC (on the power stroke).
Combustion occurs on initial start, after TDC because the shower of sparks
causes the ignition of the fuel/air mixture. Have you ever tried starting
your engine when it's cold and not priming it? The engine is not "missing
the fuel part of the equation coming from the carburetor" because the engine
has been primed. As you know, at the same time you are pressing the start
button, you are energizing the shower of sparks which then ignites the
mixture consisting of the injected air (or in your example, nitrogen) and
fuel from the primer, again on the power stroke/just a few degrees after
TDC. An excessive amount of nitrogen can prevent combustion initiated by
the shower of sparks. For all practical purposes, the engine should run,
albeit very, very poorly, on the shower of sparks.
I am not questioning whether you have been successful starting your engine
with nitrogen in the main air system. I'm sure you have. What I am saying
is that I have been unsuccessful starting the engine with only pure nitrogen
in the main air system. So for every person who has been successful, my
guess is there are probably just as many unsuccessful attempts.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ivey" <jim@jimivey.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: air system charging
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Jim Ivey <jim@jimivey.com>
>
> Al:
>
> Nitrogen works great in your M14-P air system. Engine should start
> normally. This has been a topic of debate by various operators in the
> past but remember the inert nitrogen is injected on the down part of the
> power stroke and exhausted on the next and is not part in the combustion
> process. If the starting air did have anything to do with the
> combustion process you would be missing the fuel part of the equation
> coming from the carburetor. Remember it is the metered fuel/air mixture
> from the carburetor that really starts the engine and that comes in to
> the cylinders on the intake stroke rather than the power stroke.
>
> I have used Nitrogen interchangeably with compressed air in the M14 air
> system for years. Works just as good for starting as regular air.
>
> Jim Ivey
>
>
> >
> >
> >>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Alan" <ap_bronco@hotmail.com>
> >>
> >>Need some help.
> >>
> >>I inadvertently left my air valve open the other day after securing my
> >>
> >>
> >Yak-52. A few days later I found the main air bottle at zero. I towed
the
> >a/c over to the local FBO to recharge the system with nitrogen. My
external
> >air fitting has been modified to accept a schrader valve. We refilled
the
> >system to about 4 atm on the main bottle with the main valve open. When
the
> >mechanic disconnected the hoses and started to remove the schrader valve
all
> >of the air leaked back out of the external fill port. Would there be a
> >stuck check valve somewhere? Any ideas how to fix this? This has been
the
> >first time I've recharged using the external fill port. I have a 1996
> >Yak-52. Air system is very tight. Never have had any problems with the
air
> >system. Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>Al Bromka
> >>
> >>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re:Yak-List air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
The primer pump does not inject fuel into the cylinders but into the intake scroll
where it is brought into the cylinders on the intake stroke. Nitrogen should
work just fine as it is only in the cylinder on the down stroke.
The reason that engines wont start when Cold without the primer is that extra fuel
is required because most of the fuel from the carb is laying on the cold metal
of the intake system.
Frank
CJ-6A N23021
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re:Yak-List air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Figure of speech Frank with regard to fuel into the cylinders. On the
downstroke (power stroke) is when the shower of sparks ignites the fuel/air
on the M14, which is also when the nitrogen is injected into the same
cylinder.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re:Yak-List air system charging
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>
> The primer pump does not inject fuel into the cylinders but into the
intake scroll where it is brought into the cylinders on the intake stroke.
Nitrogen should work just fine as it is only in the cylinder on the down
stroke.
>
> The reason that engines wont start when Cold without the primer is that
extra fuel is required because most of the fuel from the carb is laying on
the cold metal of the intake system.
>
> Frank
> CJ-6A N23021
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Genzlinger, Reade" <ReadeG@Cairnwood.com>
I'm in Dennis' camp on this one. I have tried pure N and nothing happens
(well it sort of farts every once in a while). When adding N to any
remaining air in system it starts fine. BTW - I don't want to know why this
is right or wrong - I offer it as my experience. Also, especially in
winter, it makes a big difference to wait about 2 minutes after priming to
get an instant start. This a tip from Gena Elfimov and is quite handy when
almost out of air.
Also - If you pay attention to the power stroke when priming and set the
prop just so it will fire the instant you hit the starter. It is quite
impressive when this happens as I'm sure many of you have discovered. This
coupled with the above is a great technique to know when starting with less
that 20 atm.
I also fly a PZL 80 Wilga which uses essentially a de-rated M14P known as an
AI14 (252hp). It is a geared engine and swings a paddle prop very similar
to the Yak but it is 9 inches longer! At any rate, the air starter on the
Wilga uses a step down valve that drops the tank pressure from a max. of 50
atm (735psi) to about 25 atm (367psi) at the injectors. The result is that
the prop always swings in a very lethargic manner - very unlike the Yak with
a full charge. However, it starts great and responds well to the techniques
just described.
It's very interesting how different eastern block designers have used the
same technology. Many of the same components (instruments, switches,
fittings) that appear in the Yaks (Russian designed, Romanian & Russian
built) also appear in the Wilga (Polish designed and built) and the IAR 823
(Romanian designed and built) and in others I'm sure.
As for the Radium discussion, I think the Yak-52s have the fluorescent paint
- but not on all instruments (at least that is the case in mine - a 1996 sn
9611911). The nicest lit panel I've seen in long time is in the Wilga.
Fluorescent paint and black lights on rheostats create a very even and soft,
but sharp effect making the instruments very easy to read. I've
supplemented the cockpit lighting in the Yak with fluorescent strip lights
from Aero Enhancements (http://www.aeroenhancements.com/). Anyone else
tried these? I think it's a great product.
Reade Genzlinger
Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation
215.914.0370
215.790.6212 fax
readeg@cairnwood.com
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: air system charging
{SPAM?} Header
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Jim,
All your statements are true except for the fact that on the initial attempt
to start the engine, fuel in forced into the cylinders via the primer pump
(not the carburetor) and air (or nitrogen in your example) is injected into
the cylinder just a couple of degrees after TDC (on the power stroke).
Combustion occurs on initial start, after TDC because the shower of sparks
causes the ignition of the fuel/air mixture. Have you ever tried starting
your engine when it's cold and not priming it? The engine is not "missing
the fuel part of the equation coming from the carburetor" because the engine
has been primed. As you know, at the same time you are pressing the start
button, you are energizing the shower of sparks which then ignites the
mixture consisting of the injected air (or in your example, nitrogen) and
fuel from the primer, again on the power stroke/just a few degrees after
TDC. An excessive amount of nitrogen can prevent combustion initiated by
the shower of sparks. For all practical purposes, the engine should run,
albeit very, very poorly, on the shower of sparks.
I am not questioning whether you have been successful starting your engine
with nitrogen in the main air system. I'm sure you have. What I am saying
is that I have been unsuccessful starting the engine with only pure nitrogen
in the main air system. So for every person who has been successful, my
guess is there are probably just as many unsuccessful attempts.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ivey" <jim@jimivey.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: air system charging
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
Just for reference, recharging with nitrogen has always worked well in the
285hp engine in the CJ when I've run out.
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> Figure of speech Frank with regard to fuel into the cylinders. On the
> downstroke (power stroke) is when the shower of sparks ignites the
> fuel/air on the M14, which is also when the nitrogen is injected into
> the same cylinder.
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Re:Yak-List air system charging
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
> <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>>
>> The primer pump does not inject fuel into the cylinders but into the
> intake scroll where it is brought into the cylinders on the intake
> stroke. Nitrogen should work just fine as it is only in the cylinder on
> the down stroke.
>>
>> The reason that engines wont start when Cold without the primer is
>> that
> extra fuel is required because most of the fuel from the carb is laying
> on the cold metal of the intake system.
>>
>> Frank
>> CJ-6A N23021
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jim Ivey <jim@jimivey.com>
Filled my complete air system with pure N this past Saturday (leak down
over six months of inactivity). Engine started first blade no problems
(however I always prime 5 strokes/5 blades). Okay, Reade. I don't care
for expert opinions either. Power strokes, primer intakes, combustion.
Whatever. All I know is that I have had great experience with pure N
in the M14P since buying the CJ in 1999 (especially early on when I had
a bad banjo fitting on my compressor). I guess everybody is going to
have to have their own experience with this. This will lead to opinion.
We all have one that is uniquely ours.
I have been wrong in the past but all I know is that pure N works fine
for me.
If folks make it to Jon Finley's SRR fly in I can provide a large-size N
bottle and regulator. Let's try starting a couple of different birds on
pure N.
Jim Ivey
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: air system charging |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> I am not questioning whether you have been successful starting your engine
> with nitrogen in the main air system. I'm sure you have. What I am saying
> is that I have been unsuccessful starting the engine with only pure nitrogen
> in the main air system. So for every person who has been successful, my
> guess is there are probably just as many unsuccessful attempts.
This is an engine timing issue. In an engine that is properly timed, the engine
will start just fine with N2 in the air system. The ignition timing is supposed
to be just before or at TDC. The starting air injection is supposed to be
substantially after that to ensure no chance of turning the engine backward.
So if the engine is properly timed, the burnable fuel-air mix is already in
the cylinder when the spark happens. If the cylinder fires the pressure holds
the check valve closed and keeps the starting pressure air from entering the
cylinder. If the cylinder doesn't fire, the starting pressure air provides the
force on the piston instead of the burning gasses.
So if your engine will not fire when your air system is charged with pure N2, you
need to check the starting timing of the mags and check the timing on the air
distributor.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 10
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gaf127enl@msn.com, MDSHELLEY@aol.com, yakjock@msn.com,
walterfricke@yahoo.com, finleycj6@juno.com, BDorsey777@aol.com,
wildf15c@hotmail.com, Swifty305@aol.com, tcalloway@datatechnique.com,
paulcfitzgerald@attbi.com, mason.t@worldnet.att.net, radialpower@cox.net
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Hello to all.
Craig Payne and I landed our trusty steeds at my home, in the very last of
twilight today. I hate to count the miles of low level CB dodging we did. Very
little of our flights got above 1,500 ft the first third of our trip. We
over night at EVV. The next morning we found a hole in the overcast at
Robinsonville, TN. because HSV got a CB while we were in route and some 4 hours
waiting
for VFR.
Saw a lot of neat stuff at OSH. Meant a lot of nice folks, renewed
friendship, drank a LOT of beer and stayed up late.
The last 150 miles from TLH was pure joy. UAVU with smooth air. Yes, gang
Craig's CJ is VERY fast.
Home at last. Home at last!
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 11
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<walterfricke@yahoo.com>, <finleycj6@juno.com>,
<tcalloway@datatechnique.com>, <radialpower@cox.net>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Yakjock" <Yakjock@msn.com>
Great! I'm glad y'all made it through the boomers.
Blitz, Steve Hollified and I headed out Saturday morning. Spent a lot of time
at 10,500 over Minnesota winding through building cumulus - a really pretty flight.
Got us through the line of weather that was closing to the East. Made
it to Cheyenne that evening.
Sunday dodged boomers through Utah and Nevada. I couldn't get to Oregon so headed
for California. Just West of Salt Lake we went through a line of rain between
two boomers and found ourselves in a hail storm. Lasted less than 15 seconds,
but did considerable damage to the planes by way of dented shutter vanes
and leading edges as well as loss of some paint. It also nailed the tip of one
prop blade so that will have to go in.
After spending the night with Blitz, made it back to Oregon this morning. Fifteen
hours to the Bay Area, three more to Portland. All told over the ten days
I logged 45.4 hours and just over 5,000 miles. A great trip with good friends.
Hal Morley
Message 12
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| Subject: | Home from OSHKOSH |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Folks,
MTW/OSH went very well it seemed, with "Kilo" and Dan Fortin (Canadian member)
able to complete checkrides with the packed airshow/training schedule.
Thanks to Terry C. for the excellent video of our flying in 2002, if you haven't
seen this, you will!
Thanks Jim G. for heading up the planning this year and leading our formations
over our biggest spectator event - The 50 Cal and rockets were a nice touch!
Folks, on Thursday night at MTW I gave a transitional power point briefing that
included a vision to increase membership, democratize the association regionally,
and make the organization more "inclusive" in all respects. Mike Filucci
and I have collaborated on these initiatives over about the last 14 months,
and as your new President, I want to insure you they are geared towards advancing
our cause as a growing Aircraft Owners Association. I received resounding
support during the briefing, while a few questions of concern were raised the
following day that I believe we were able to address; I now would like to take
that vision to the rest of the membership.
I will write the Yak list over the coming days/weeks concerning certain important
changes that will significantly benefit our membership and organization. In
the meantime, I invite the attendees at MTW to communicate with their fellow
members concerning our initiatives.
Folks, we have only skyward to climb, please keep an open mind and trust we are
working very hard on the future success and growth of this association.
Thanks for listening,
Drew Blahnick
YPA/Red Star
310.386.9181
"Communism: Lousy Politics - Excellent Airplanes!"
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