Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:57 AM - Re: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues (Brian Lloyd)
2. 08:03 AM - Re: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues (Lee Taylor)
3. 08:40 AM - Re: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues (Brian Lloyd)
4. 09:48 AM - Re: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues (Lee Taylor)
5. 10:30 AM - pilots and tea-carts (Brian Lloyd)
6. 11:29 AM - Re: pilots and tea-carts ()
7. 11:53 AM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Brian Lloyd)
8. 12:26 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Lee Taylor)
9. 12:28 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts ()
10. 12:43 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Lee Taylor)
11. 12:45 PM - Re: Yak 50 Air Bottle Failure (pop off valve) (Richard Basiliere)
12. 12:51 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Lee Taylor)
13. 01:00 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Brian Lloyd)
14. 01:02 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts ()
15. 01:05 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Brian Lloyd)
16. 01:10 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Lee Taylor)
17. 01:13 PM - [ Kevin Pilling ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
18. 01:16 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Lee Taylor)
19. 01:21 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Brian Lloyd)
20. 01:22 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts ()
21. 01:25 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts ()
22. 01:35 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Ernie)
23. 01:47 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Lee Taylor)
24. 01:50 PM - Re: pilots and tea-carts (Lee Taylor)
25. 02:34 PM - Re: LOAs and Type Ratings (Ron)
26. 05:59 PM - Re: LOAs and Type Ratings (Ernie)
Message 1
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Alan Cockrell wrote:
> one. The best philosophy ever proffered to me came from a crusty old
> fighter colonel who advised me that, "whatever airplane you're flying
> is a good airplane." And he meant every a! irplane--not just
> fighters. He was right, and everybody who flies for Uncle has a right
> to take pride in what they do.
Yes indeedy. My post was not a specific jab at any sort of airplane or any sort
of pilot. It was, as with much humor, a jab at just about everyone and everthing
including myself.
Consider my comment about the [anti]manliness of flying a good approach. I get
my rocks off from flying the perfect instrument approach using raw data. That
is the ultimate pinball game for me whether I do it in the sim or for real in
the clag. The point is, I don't do it for anyone else -- I just do it for me.
Also consider that the C-150 has become one of my favorite airplanes. Most people
can't wait to get away from that airplane but, man, is that airplane a great
trainer. I love the way it spins. It lands so easily it is no challenge but
that is why I loved my little short-wing Piper Clipper. I had to work for
every landing. But I am with you 100% -- I never met an airplane I didn't like.
What I was really poking fun at were the people who take themselves way too seriously.
They seem to equate all this stuff with "professionalism" or some such.
Ever been to the Warbird briefing at OSH? Most of these people take things
waaaaay too seriously. Sure it is important not to swap paint, break airplanes,
or hurt someone. What they forget is that we are doing this for fun, not
to save the Country or to demonstrate how much "right stuff" we have.
> But enough of that. Now, more relevant to the list, I'll comment on
> your obvservations concerning the wearing of flight suits with a
> plethora of funny patches by Yakkers. I share you amusement over Red
> Star's romance with the Nomex, while acknowledging that flight suits
> make good sense for aerobatic/formation/BFM type flying which I often
> do,
OK, we are in sync here too.
> yet I never wear one. Why? Because I didn't like wearing them
> when I was a real fighter pilot. They're too hot in the summer,
But nice in the winter. My CJ didn't have heat yet I was perfectly comfortable
with my long underwear, street clothes, flight suit, and fleece-lined jacket
over. It has its place.
> besides, the guys around the patch start thinking that you're some
> sort of Walter Mitty if you wear one.
Yeah, I know what you mean but even that is fun so long as you admit to yourself
what you are doing. The worst "offender" of this is Jim "Pappy" Goolsby with
his oxygen-mask-to-nowhere. I love it! He doesn't take it seriously or get
all worked up. He is just having fun! So just before engine starts he grins
at you, straps on that silly mask, and we go flying to have a good time. It
works because he DOESN'T take it too seriously.
All kidding aside, sometimes you just want to dress up and be someone you aren't.
I understand that. I do it too. The people who scare me are the ones who
come up with all the serious reasons and none of the fun. Fear the man who can't
laugh at himself. Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, Kim Il Sung, and Saddam come to
mind here.
> But the biggest reason, is my
> buddy, Gordy Seuell, doesn't wear one. (He also has a Y-52 in the
> hangar next door.) Gordy is the quiet, unboasting, unassuming type
> that will wax your tail in a fight and hang so tight on your wing he
> seems to be riveted out there. He's the kind you never have to even
> brief a formation flight with. He's just there--predictable and
> reliable. He flies in jeans and a pull-over. ! In cool weather he
> wears his USAF A-1 leather jacket with no---zero---patches. He's
> just, Gordy. Yak driver and former fighter pilot extradroidinaire. If
> only I could get him to a Red Star fly-in, man, we'd raise some
> eyebrows.
But it doesn't matter. You know he's good and he knows he is good and you guys
go out there to have fun and to stay good or even get better. Go have fun and
expand the limits of your own personal envelope. Do it for you.
But do go to Red Star. Laugh at the flight-suit rule, share ideas, learn to do
something better from someone who has a different approach, and then drink a
couple of beers at the end of the day while talking to people who love flying
as much as you do.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Brian, I can't tell you how much I have enjoyed your articles about
airplane driver egos and pilot attitudes. Been at this stuff for over
50 years myself, and have come to realize that ALL of what you have said
is very true. There are a lot of airplane drivers strutting their stuff
around their civilian fighters in their patch-covered Nomex flight
suits, and then there are a few pilots around. I have had the extreme
good fortune to have known a few of them.
One was Mort Gossett, who I flew with at the Chester Air Attack
Base in California. Mort was a God among fire bomber tanker pilots, had
been in it since the very beginning. Talk to Mort, he didn't honestly
like to fly, so he would say. Couldn't ever get him to talk about his
flying. But to be 500' over the top of him in my Air Attack plane,
watching that man put that DC-4 tanker down onto the top of a forest
fire, in the bottom of a canyon everyone else had trouble approaching,
was a view of pure poetry in motion. He was as much of a ballet master
with that monster as Yanni is a piano player. There's never been a
fighter pilot with that kind of skill.
Another that everyone knows is Jim Franklin. Everyone knows Jim
as the premier airshow pilot. The most beautiful show I have ever
watched was many years ago, Jim flying his Aerostar. Choreographed to
music and a story, I watched Jim pull straight up out of a long dive,
roll several times vertical, and right at the top, went very slightly
negative. Just before stopping at the top, he pushed over level, cut
one engine, and absolutely perfectly, in O g, no motion at all, pivoted
a full 180 degrees, added power to the first engine, and flew away, dead
level. I have never seen a more beautiful, more perfectly flown
manuver. It brought tears to my eyes. An example of pure piloting, not a
demonstration of how much he could punish a plane.
And you know what? I have never seen Jim fly a manuver that he
didn't have "fudge" room. He ALWAYS has a little room for error, ALWAYS
flys a SAFE show, and he is an absolute joy to watch as a result. One of
these days I hope to meet him in person.
Art Sholl, now, I HATED seeing that man fly. He was always out
trying to prove "how good he was", he was ALWAYS on the ragged edge. He
was a man who was always trying to impress, and about to kill himself.
He finally did. I am just SO happy he did it totally private, didn't
crash into the crowd, which is what I always feared watching him. He
was no pilot.
I need to make one statement, and some people are going to be
awfully mad at me, but----. Guys, the military stuff is the EASIEST
stuff in the world to fly. Flying them as we do, well, :>) It is all
image, very little real challenge. You want to impress me, make a nice
landing in a good crosswind in a Taylorcraft. How in the world can I
possibly say that about such "glamorous" equipment? Well, consider what
these planes were designed to do. They were designed to train MANY
pilots to fly in WAR, (not just the SuperTroops), or actually be war
machines. Their pilots, by definition are designed to be NEW pilots,
very little real experience. Just kids, every one of them. They were
designed to be flown in Battle, and a new, inexperienced kid pilot in
that situation, under those circumstances, is not exactly of a mental
state to be a real skillful individual. They were designed to come home
after the pilot had spent the entire time so utterly hyped up, BEING
SHOT AT, that by the time he is to LAND, he is an absolute mental WRECK!
If these planes were the very least bit difficult to fly, not a single
one of these FIGHTER PILOTS would survive their first flight. High
performance, yes. Very powerful, yes. Real ego machines, very
definitely YES! But difficult to fly? A real challenge to a real
pilot? Someting to really stick your chest out about simply because you
own and fly one? Come on, guys, gimme a break. (Well, that last part,
yes.)
Enjoy the hell out of these machines, but to actually be a pilot
is something that takes a whole lot more than just having one of these
in your hangar. Brian has given us all a wonderful breath of fresh air,
let's really enjoy these things, instead of putting on airs. That
flight suit RULE is one dictated by wannabe airplane drivers, not by
pilots.
P.S. When I was flying Air Attack, I was the ONLY guy around
who wore his flight suit all the time. I happen to LIKE them! (plus
when you sit in a plane over a fire for 8 hours at a time, they are
comfortable. After about 2 hours, jeans AIN'T! Pinch City!)
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Alan Cockrell wrote:
> one. The best philosophy ever proffered to me came from a crusty old
> fighter colonel who advised me that, "whatever airplane you're flying
> is a good airplane." And he meant every a! irplane--not just
> fighters. He was right, and everybody who flies for Uncle has a right
> to take pride in what they do.
Yes indeedy. My post was not a specific jab at any sort of airplane or
any sort of pilot. It was, as with much humor, a jab at just about
everyone and everthing including myself.
Consider my comment about the [anti]manliness of flying a good approach.
I get my rocks off from flying the perfect instrument approach using raw
data. That is the ultimate pinball game for me whether I do it in the
sim or for real in the clag. The point is, I don't do it for anyone
else -- I just do it for me.
Also consider that the C-150 has become one of my favorite airplanes.
Most people can't wait to get away from that airplane but, man, is that
airplane a great trainer. I love the way it spins. It lands so easily
it is no challenge but that is why I loved my little short-wing Piper
Clipper. I had to work for every landing. But I am with you 100% -- I
never met an airplane I didn't like.
What I was really poking fun at were the people who take themselves way
too seriously. They seem to equate all this stuff with
"professionalism" or some such. Ever been to the Warbird briefing at
OSH? Most of these people take things waaaaay too seriously. Sure it
is important not to swap paint, break airplanes, or hurt someone. What
they forget is that we are doing this for fun, not to save the Country
or to demonstrate how much "right stuff" we have.
> But enough of that. Now, more relevant to the list, I'll comment on
> your obvservations concerning the wearing of flight suits with a
> plethora of funny patches by Yakkers. I share you amusement over Red
> Star's romance with the Nomex, while acknowledging that flight suits
> make good sense for aerobatic/formation/BFM type flying which I often
> do,
OK, we are in sync here too.
> yet I never wear one. Why? Because I didn't like wearing them
> when I was a real fighter pilot. They're too hot in the summer,
But nice in the winter. My CJ didn't have heat yet I was perfectly
comfortable with my long underwear, street clothes, flight suit, and
fleece-lined jacket over. It has its place.
> besides, the guys around the patch start thinking that you're some
> sort of Walter Mitty if you wear one.
Yeah, I know what you mean but even that is fun so long as you admit to
yourself what you are doing. The worst "offender" of this is Jim
"Pappy" Goolsby with his oxygen-mask-to-nowhere. I love it! He doesn't
take it seriously or get all worked up. He is just having fun! So just
before engine starts he grins at you, straps on that silly mask, and we
go flying to have a good time. It works because he DOESN'T take it too
seriously.
All kidding aside, sometimes you just want to dress up and be someone
you aren't. I understand that. I do it too. The people who scare me
are the ones who come up with all the serious reasons and none of the
fun. Fear the man who can't laugh at himself. Hitler, Tojo, Stalin,
Kim Il Sung, and Saddam come to mind here.
> But the biggest reason, is my
> buddy, Gordy Seuell, doesn't wear one. (He also has a Y-52 in the
> hangar next door.) Gordy is the quiet, unboasting, unassuming type
> that will wax your tail in a fight and hang so tight on your wing he
> seems to be riveted out there. He's the kind you never have to even
> brief a formation flight with. He's just there--predictable and
> reliable. He flies in jeans and a pull-over. ! In cool weather he
> wears his USAF A-1 leather jacket with no---zero---patches. He's
> just, Gordy. Yak driver and former fighter pilot extradroidinaire. If
> only I could get him to a Red Star fly-in, man, we'd raise some
> eyebrows.
But it doesn't matter. You know he's good and he knows he is good and
you guys go out there to have fun and to stay good or even get better.
Go have fun and expand the limits of your own personal envelope. Do it
for you.
But do go to Red Star. Laugh at the flight-suit rule, share ideas,
learn to do something better from someone who has a different approach,
and then drink a couple of beers at the end of the day while talking to
people who love flying as much as you do.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lee Taylor wrote:
> Art Sholl, now, I HATED seeing that man fly. He was always out
> trying to prove "how good he was", he was ALWAYS on the ragged edge. He
> was a man who was always trying to impress, and about to kill himself.
> He finally did. I am just SO happy he did it totally private, didn't
> crash into the crowd, which is what I always feared watching him. He
> was no pilot.
He did have an ego. I used to work the line for an airshow troupe in California
in 1970 and 1971 while I was in High School. I was a student pilot and a newly
minted private pilot in those two years. I was responsible for seeing to
it that the performers were organized and that things happened on schedule. Everyone
was great to work with with one exception ... Art Scholl. The only way
I ever got him to do what needed to be done was to stroke his ego big time.
In fact, my father and I to this day refer to fawning in order to get a prima
donna to do what needs to be done the "Gee Whiz Mr. Scholl" technique.
> I need to make one statement, and some people are going to be
> awfully mad at me, but----. Guys, the military stuff is the EASIEST
> stuff in the world to fly. Flying them as we do, well, :>) It is all
> image, very little real challenge. You want to impress me, make a nice
> landing in a good crosswind in a Taylorcraft.
I have never flown a tea-cart because, as a Short Wing Piper Owner, Tailorcraft
owners were "the enemy." %) I want to tho'! I bet that, with a little effort
on my part, I can do it pretty well.
But I know exactly what you mean. A good pilot is one who takes the airplane he
has and always flys it to the best of his and its ability.
> How in the world can I
> possibly say that about such "glamorous" equipment? Well, consider what
> these planes were designed to do. They were designed to train MANY
> pilots to fly in WAR, (not just the SuperTroops), or actually be war
> machines. Their pilots, by definition are designed to be NEW pilots,
> very little real experience. Just kids, every one of them. They were
> designed to be flown in Battle, and a new, inexperienced kid pilot in
> that situation, under those circumstances, is not exactly of a mental
> state to be a real skillful individual. They were designed to come home
> after the pilot had spent the entire time so utterly hyped up, BEING
> SHOT AT, that by the time he is to LAND, he is an absolute mental WRECK!
> If these planes were the very least bit difficult to fly, not a single
> one of these FIGHTER PILOTS would survive their first flight. High
> performance, yes. Very powerful, yes. Real ego machines, very
> definitely YES! But difficult to fly? A real challenge to a real
> pilot? Someting to really stick your chest out about simply because you
> own and fly one? Come on, guys, gimme a break. (Well, that last part,
> yes.)
But they are fun to fly. The CJ6A is one of the easiest airplanes to fly I have
ever flown but it is still a challenge to fly well. It isn't hard to fly but
it does a good job of telling me when I am being sloppy or not paying attention.
> Enjoy the hell out of these machines, but to actually be a pilot
> is something that takes a whole lot more than just having one of these
> in your hangar. Brian has given us all a wonderful breath of fresh air,
> let's really enjoy these things, instead of putting on airs. That
> flight suit RULE is one dictated by wannabe airplane drivers, not by
> pilots.
You betcha!
> P.S. When I was flying Air Attack, I was the ONLY guy around
> who wore his flight suit all the time. I happen to LIKE them! (plus
> when you sit in a plane over a fire for 8 hours at a time, they are
> comfortable. After about 2 hours, jeans AIN'T! Pinch City!)
They certainlly can be.
Thanks for the post Lee.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: parachutes, flight suits, and personality issues
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lee Taylor wrote:
You want to impress me, make a nice
> landing in a good crosswind in a Taylorcraft.
I have never flown a tea-cart because, as a Short Wing Piper Owner,
Tailorcraft owners were "the enemy." %) I want to tho'! I bet that,
with a little effort on my part, I can do it pretty well.
Brian, you wanna really learn to be a pilot, (:>) :>) ), FLY A
T-CRAFT! That durned little kite-with-an-engine taught me more about
flying than ANYTHING! It is a real AIRPLANE. And it will not forgive
even the slightest crudity in your flying without strong punishment.
The T-craft was my first plane, back when I was still a student
pilot, and a fighter crew chief in the Air Force. I basically taught
myself to fly it, (had been flying Cessna 120's for years, no license
yet, tho), because there wasn't anyone around who could teach me in it.
One day I was out in the desert in a rather gusty wind, TRYING
to learn how to land that thing. Finally got it on the ground, and
taxiied in. An old duster pilot met me as I got out, and very kindly
offered the observation that I seemed to be having a problem getting it
to quit flying. THAT was the understatement of the century!
He said, (again, very gently), "If you'd slow it down a little
on final, you would be more successful." "SLOW DOWN ON FINAL???" "What
the HELL you trying to get me to do, KILL MYSELF?" "Stupid old
fool----" as I angrily stomped away. You have to understand, I was
taught in Cessnas. (And short-wing Pipers--the original plane with No
Visible Means of Support--:>) :>) ) 70 mph on final was GOSPEL! "Thou
Shalt NOT Get Slow On Final, Lest The Ground Rise Up And Smite Thee!"
Three weeks later I was willing to try ANYTHING! Started
slowing it down VERY CAREFULLY, and when I got it down to 55 on final,
found out I could put that plane on a dime, and stop on a nickel. WHATTA
BIRD! And as far as REQUIRING you to be a pilot---everything since
then, including the jets, Christen Eagles, Sukhoi SU-29's---is
milquetoast.
'Nother story? Had a good friend who owned a Cessna Cardinal.
I checked him out in the T-craft, and flew his Cardinal. He brought out
his instructor to fly the T-craft one day. First off, understand both
of these guys weighed over 250. In a T-Craft! The instructor was an
ex-F-86 pilot, flew charter in a 310 all the time. They got into the
T-craft. (I would give ANYTHING for a video of that--I was laughing so
hard---!)
Paul, my friend, made a couple of takeoffs and landings. Then
his instructor said, "Here, let me show you how to fly this thing!" Set
up on downwind, pulled the power, and set up a 70-mph glide. Paul kinda
glanced at him, but didn't say anything. (I had taught Paul to slow it
down, as I had finally learned.)
On base, perfect position, but still 70 mph. Paul said, "Might
want to slow this down a little." Instructor glared at him. Turning a
short final, again perfect position, perfect altitude, but still 70 mph.
Paul said, "Better slow down some--" "LISTEN KID, WHO'SE THE INSTRUCTOR
IN THIS THING?!!" Paul shut up.
Crossed the fence three feet high, perfect position, still 70
mph. When he floated by me at the OPPOSITE end of the runway, STILL
THREE FEET HIGH, he slid the window back, stuck his head out, and
yelled, "H-E-L-P !!"
Flying one of the best of the breed right now, a BC-12D that has
been modified to a Model 19 with an 85-hp engine and full electrical
system. Belonged to my elderly neighbor across the taxiway, he had
fully restored it, and I flew as his instructor. Recently he sold it to
a new student, and it is still in the same across-taxiway hangar.
Taught that young man to fly it, and he just recently got his private
license. Having a ball with it, flying it around the Front Range here
in Denver. I take a great deal of pleasure watching him make a perfect
landing in it with his 8-year-old daughter aboard, who loves the plane
like it was her horse.
And, in my back-yard hangar is a giant T-Craft, my Cessna 180.
The BEST airplane ever built. Just as much of a challenge to fly right,
too. That's a whole 'nuther story, tho.
Lee
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lee Taylor wrote:
> One day I was out in the desert in a rather gusty wind, TRYING
> to learn how to land that thing. Finally got it on the ground, and
> taxiied in. An old duster pilot met me as I got out, and very kindly
> offered the observation that I seemed to be having a problem getting it
> to quit flying. THAT was the understatement of the century!
> He said, (again, very gently), "If you'd slow it down a little
> on final, you would be more successful." "SLOW DOWN ON FINAL???" "What
> the HELL you trying to get me to do, KILL MYSELF?" "Stupid old
> fool----" as I angrily stomped away. You have to understand, I was
> taught in Cessnas. (And short-wing Pipers--the original plane with No
> Visible Means of Support--:>) :>) ) 70 mph on final was GOSPEL! "Thou
> Shalt NOT Get Slow On Final, Lest The Ground Rise Up And Smite Thee!"
No kidding. Darned near everyone flies their airplane too fast on final. I found
that the Clipper flew a lot better on final if I slowed it down. So did the
Comanche.
> Three weeks later I was willing to try ANYTHING! Started
> slowing it down VERY CAREFULLY, and when I got it down to 55 on final,
> found out I could put that plane on a dime, and stop on a nickel. WHATTA
> BIRD! And as far as REQUIRING you to be a pilot---everything since
> then, including the jets, Christen Eagles, Sukhoi SU-29's---is
> milquetoast.
I hear you! Some of these little airplanes that everyone turns their nose up at
were really great teachers. My son Cameron learned to fly in that Clipper.
When we flew back from Oshkosh with Mark Schrick in his new Yak-52 I put that
same son in Mark's back seat. That way if everything went to hell I knew there
was someone in the airplane who could put it safely on the ground. (Sorry
Mark, but I didn't know what kind of pilot you were.)
> Crossed the fence three feet high, perfect position, still 70
> mph. When he floated by me at the OPPOSITE end of the runway, STILL
> THREE FEET HIGH, he slid the window back, stuck his head out, and
> yelled, "H-E-L-P !!"
Yeah, and then there are the people who try to glue it on while still going too
fast. I watched a pilot try to do that but only managed to get the nosewheel
on the runway. The airplane wheelbarrowed all the way the length of the runway
and off the end. It would have been so easy to just open the throttle and
go around but she was intent on getting that thing on the ground. What a waste
of a perfectly good airplane too.
> Taught that young man to fly it, and he just recently got his private
> license. Having a ball with it, flying it around the Front Range here
> in Denver. I take a great deal of pleasure watching him make a perfect
> landing in it with his 8-year-old daughter aboard, who loves the plane
> like it was her horse.
Maybe she will learn to fly it too! I like teaching kids to fly.
> And, in my back-yard hangar is a giant T-Craft, my Cessna 180.
> The BEST airplane ever built. Just as much of a challenge to fly right,
> too. That's a whole 'nuther story, tho.
I am sure we can get all kinds of argument about what is the best airplane. Want
to end that argument when people start getting their egos on the line? Answer
with, "why the one you are flying right now, of course." Every airplane I
have flown has taught me something. I look back on all of them with great fondness.
(This is why I have always thought that the CJ6A vs. Yak-52 argument
was stupid since both are really great airplanes.)
--
Brian Lloyd, President Green Flash Networks, Inc.
brian@greenflashnetworks.com 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
http://www.greenflashnetworks.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Let's be careful telling people about flying slower on final because it was
easier to land it that way.
OBTW, this is why I like Navy carrier airplanes and their approach to flying
*ON SPEED* during an approach to land using angle of attack. On speed is on
speed. Doesn't matter a rats ass what the aircraft weighs because if your
on speed your flying the optimum AOA, not some arbitrary IAS. The only time
I ever looked at my airspeed in the HUD was after I dirtied up and was
trimmed on speed and then I was just cross checking to make sure my AOA
system wasn't in left field.
John Hilterman
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lee Taylor wrote:
> One day I was out in the desert in a rather gusty wind, TRYING
> to learn how to land that thing. Finally got it on the ground, and
> taxiied in. An old duster pilot met me as I got out, and very kindly
> offered the observation that I seemed to be having a problem getting it
> to quit flying. THAT was the understatement of the century!
> He said, (again, very gently), "If you'd slow it down a little
> on final, you would be more successful." "SLOW DOWN ON FINAL???" "What
> the HELL you trying to get me to do, KILL MYSELF?" "Stupid old
> fool----" as I angrily stomped away. You have to understand, I was
> taught in Cessnas. (And short-wing Pipers--the original plane with No
> Visible Means of Support--:>) :>) ) 70 mph on final was GOSPEL! "Thou
> Shalt NOT Get Slow On Final, Lest The Ground Rise Up And Smite Thee!"
No kidding. Darned near everyone flies their airplane too fast on final. I
found that the Clipper flew a lot better on final if I slowed it down. So
did the Comanche.
> Three weeks later I was willing to try ANYTHING! Started
> slowing it down VERY CAREFULLY, and when I got it down to 55 on final,
> found out I could put that plane on a dime, and stop on a nickel. WHATTA
> BIRD! And as far as REQUIRING you to be a pilot---everything since
> then, including the jets, Christen Eagles, Sukhoi SU-29's---is
> milquetoast.
I hear you! Some of these little airplanes that everyone turns their nose
up at were really great teachers. My son Cameron learned to fly in that
Clipper. When we flew back from Oshkosh with Mark Schrick in his new Yak-52
I put that same son in Mark's back seat. That way if everything went to
hell I knew there was someone in the airplane who could put it safely on the
ground. (Sorry Mark, but I didn't know what kind of pilot you were.)
> Crossed the fence three feet high, perfect position, still 70
> mph. When he floated by me at the OPPOSITE end of the runway, STILL
> THREE FEET HIGH, he slid the window back, stuck his head out, and
> yelled, "H-E-L-P !!"
Yeah, and then there are the people who try to glue it on while still going
too fast. I watched a pilot try to do that but only managed to get the
nosewheel on the runway. The airplane wheelbarrowed all the way the length
of the runway and off the end. It would have been so easy to just open the
throttle and go around but she was intent on getting that thing on the
ground. What a waste of a perfectly good airplane too.
> Taught that young man to fly it, and he just recently got his private
> license. Having a ball with it, flying it around the Front Range here
> in Denver. I take a great deal of pleasure watching him make a perfect
> landing in it with his 8-year-old daughter aboard, who loves the plane
> like it was her horse.
Maybe she will learn to fly it too! I like teaching kids to fly.
> And, in my back-yard hangar is a giant T-Craft, my Cessna 180.
> The BEST airplane ever built. Just as much of a challenge to fly right,
> too. That's a whole 'nuther story, tho.
I am sure we can get all kinds of argument about what is the best airplane.
Want to end that argument when people start getting their egos on the line?
Answer with, "why the one you are flying right now, of course." Every
airplane I have flown has taught me something. I look back on all of them
with great fondness. (This is why I have always thought that the CJ6A vs.
Yak-52 argument was stupid since both are really great airplanes.)
--
Brian Lloyd, President Green Flash Networks, Inc.
brian@greenflashnetworks.com 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
http://www.greenflashnetworks.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
johnhilterman1@cox.net wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
>
> Let's be careful telling people about flying slower on final because it was
> easier to land it that way.
<sigh> No, I am not advocating that people do something either stupid or dangerous.
The problem is, most instructors build in some margin for their students
early on in the learning process. This has students flying much too fast on
final.
> OBTW, this is why I like Navy carrier airplanes and their approach to flying
> *ON SPEED* during an approach to land using angle of attack.
Right. On speed. Only AoA will always nail the correct speed regardless of load.
But most airplanes don't have AoA indicators so you have to fly by the secondary
instrument, the airspeed indicator. The problem is that "on speed" is a lot
slower than most people are taught and it varies with load. I was taught that
"on speed" for my Comanche was 90 mph on final. It didn't take me long to figure
out that was wrong. The correct over-the-fence speed, determined after
much trial, is 75 mph. There is a big difference between 75 mph and 90 mph.
Likewise with my Clipper the number turned out to be closer to 60 mph than the
70 I was taught but that did put the airplane on the back side of the curve.
So if you are smart and careful, you will go out and find the stall IAS for your
airplane and then fly approaches down to about 1.1 Vs to see how the airplane
performs. Too many people take the numbers they are given and treat them as
gospel without ever trying to find out if they are right.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lee Taylor wrote:
> One day I was out in the desert in a rather gusty wind, TRYING
> to learn how to land that thing. Finally got it on the ground, and
> taxiied in. An old duster pilot met me as I got out, and very kindly
> offered the observation that I seemed to be having a problem getting
it
> to quit flying. THAT was the understatement of the century!
> He said, (again, very gently), "If you'd slow it down a little
> on final, you would be more successful." "SLOW DOWN ON FINAL???"
"What
> the HELL you trying to get me to do, KILL MYSELF?" "Stupid old
> fool----" as I angrily stomped away. You have to understand, I was
> taught in Cessnas. (And short-wing Pipers--the original plane with No
> Visible Means of Support--:>) :>) ) 70 mph on final was GOSPEL!
"Thou
> Shalt NOT Get Slow On Final, Lest The Ground Rise Up And Smite Thee!"
No kidding. Darned near everyone flies their airplane too fast on
final. I found that the Clipper flew a lot better on final if I slowed
it down. So did the Comanche.
> Three weeks later I was willing to try ANYTHING! Started
> slowing it down VERY CAREFULLY, and when I got it down to 55 on final,
> found out I could put that plane on a dime, and stop on a nickel.
WHATTA
> BIRD! And as far as REQUIRING you to be a pilot---everything since
> then, including the jets, Christen Eagles, Sukhoi SU-29's---is
> milquetoast.
I hear you! Some of these little airplanes that everyone turns their
nose up at were really great teachers. My son Cameron learned to fly in
that Clipper. When we flew back from Oshkosh with Mark Schrick in his
new Yak-52 I put that same son in Mark's back seat. That way if
everything went to hell I knew there was someone in the airplane who
could put it safely on the ground. (Sorry Mark, but I didn't know what
kind of pilot you were.)
> Crossed the fence three feet high, perfect position, still 70
> mph. When he floated by me at the OPPOSITE end of the runway, STILL
> THREE FEET HIGH, he slid the window back, stuck his head out, and
> yelled, "H-E-L-P !!"
Yeah, and then there are the people who try to glue it on while still
going too fast. I watched a pilot try to do that but only managed to
get the nosewheel on the runway. The airplane wheelbarrowed all the way
the length of the runway and off the end. It would have been so easy to
just open the throttle and go around but she was intent on getting that
thing on the ground. What a waste of a perfectly good airplane too.
> Taught that young man to fly it, and he just recently got his private
> license. Having a ball with it, flying it around the Front Range here
> in Denver. I take a great deal of pleasure watching him make a
perfect
> landing in it with his 8-year-old daughter aboard, who loves the plane
> like it was her horse.
Maybe she will learn to fly it too! I like teaching kids to fly.
> And, in my back-yard hangar is a giant T-Craft, my Cessna 180.
> The BEST airplane ever built. Just as much of a challenge to fly
right,
> too. That's a whole 'nuther story, tho.
I am sure we can get all kinds of argument about what is the best
airplane. Want to end that argument when people start getting their
egos on the line? Answer with, "why the one you are flying right now,
of course." Every airplane I have flown has taught me something. I
look back on all of them with great fondness. (This is why I have
always thought that the CJ6A vs. Yak-52 argument was stupid since both
are really great airplanes.)
Brian, one of these days you and I gotta meet. I VERY FULLY
agree with your last paragraph, and the sentiments about ALL airplanes.
Well, with one exception. There is no doubt in my mind about the Cessna
180. Sending you another article I wrote some time back to your personl
email.
Lee Taylor
--
Brian Lloyd, President Green Flash Networks, Inc.
brian@greenflashnetworks.com 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
http://www.greenflashnetworks.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
I pretty much agree with what you're saying Brian except the last paragraph.
Since we don't have accurate AOA systems in our airplanes, the norm is to
fly 1.3 Vs which for a 60 knot Vs airplane is 78 knots, or 18 knot margin.
Using your 1.1 Vs statement and now you're only flying with a 6 knot margin
which can disappear instantaneously in *GUSTY* conditions. Like you said,
you've got to be careful and smart and weigh all factors, especially the
environmental ones, that affect the approach. If you don't know what your
airplane stalls at both heavily loaded and lightly loaded in varying
configurations, find out next time you fly.
John Hilterman
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
johnhilterman1@cox.net wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
>
> Let's be careful telling people about flying slower on final because it
was
> easier to land it that way.
<sigh> No, I am not advocating that people do something either stupid or
dangerous. The problem is, most instructors build in some margin for their
students early on in the learning process. This has students flying much
too fast on final.
> OBTW, this is why I like Navy carrier airplanes and their approach to
flying
> *ON SPEED* during an approach to land using angle of attack.
Right. On speed. Only AoA will always nail the correct speed regardless of
load.
But most airplanes don't have AoA indicators so you have to fly by the
secondary instrument, the airspeed indicator. The problem is that "on
speed" is a lot slower than most people are taught and it varies with load.
I was taught that "on speed" for my Comanche was 90 mph on final. It didn't
take me long to figure out that was wrong. The correct over-the-fence
speed, determined after much trial, is 75 mph. There is a big difference
between 75 mph and 90 mph.
Likewise with my Clipper the number turned out to be closer to 60 mph than
the 70 I was taught but that did put the airplane on the back side of the
curve.
So if you are smart and careful, you will go out and find the stall IAS for
your airplane and then fly approaches down to about 1.1 Vs to see how the
airplane performs. Too many people take the numbers they are given and
treat them as gospel without ever trying to find out if they are right.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
johnhilterman1@cox.net
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Let's be careful telling people about flying slower on final because it
was
easier to land it that way.
Very simply. Proper airspeed for the particular plane in the
particular circumstance IS proper airspeed. Anything else isn't
optimum. An airplane driver who cannot control his airspeed is not in
control of his airplane.
OBTW, this is why I like Navy carrier airplanes and their approach to
flying
*ON SPEED* during an approach to land using angle of attack. On speed
is on
speed. Doesn't matter a rats ass what the aircraft weighs because if
your
on speed your flying the optimum AOA, not some arbitrary IAS. The only
time
I ever looked at my airspeed in the HUD was after I dirtied up and was
trimmed on speed and then I was just cross checking to make sure my AOA
system wasn't in left field.
That works just fine for planes like that. BUT, I know of very
few civilian planes that have AOA's. And by the way, (being an ex Air
Force type, :>), Who spent a LOT of time in the alert hangers at the
end of our runway watching many jet takeoffs and landings, which the
Navy pilots from Pt. Mugu used to use often for practice), NAVY pilots
do not know how to land. All they know is how to crash precisely on a
spot! :>)
Lee Taylor
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Yak 50 Air Bottle Failure (pop off valve) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
I can't site chapter and verse but in dealing with SCBA (firefighter air
bottles), SCUBA, and our medical oxygen bottles they are tested to 5/3
working pressure. That is Working Pressure say 3000psi multiply by 5 15,000 divide
by 3= 5000 psi test pressure for a bottle with 3000 psi
working pressure. There was/is a "secret" mark used on those bottles
that stretch the least, I guess, and it is legal for us (firefighters)
to fill those bottles to 10% over working pressure, 3,300 psi in my
example,FYI. All our steel and Aluminum bottles are tested every 5
years and the new composite bottles that we use get tested each 3 years
Respectfully, Rick
PS; Too much stretch or internal corrosion are the 2 causes I know of
for a bottle's failure to pass.
>>> kjpilling@btclick.com 8/29/2003 4:28:19 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Kevin Pilling"
<kjpilling@btclick.com>
The pop off , was and is still is 'popping off' at 45 Bar.
The failure was entirely due to rust degradation of the tank
internally
Externally the tank was in A1 condition but internally (now very
easily
inspected!) it was poor.
I think the manufacturer calls for 5 yearly testing and that would have
been
next year,. that's taking the start date for the interval as the
Russian
overhaul date of 1999.
Whilst I have no complaints with any other aspect of the aircrafts
condition
upon delivery, this tank obviously slipped through the net and I
suspect
others will have too.
I am not absolutely sure but I believe the test standard is two and a
half
times the normal 50 bar operating pressure.
But check that out yourself before any testing.
kp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 50 Air Bottle Failure (pop off valve)
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
>
> Kevin,
> Do you know if the pop off valve failed ? If that happened then the
bottle
> could have over pressured, it was sat on the ground long enough for
some
> serious pressure to build up. If you can could you have it tested
and
report
> to the group ?
>
> Gus
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
I pretty much agree with what you're saying Brian except the last
paragraph.
Since we don't have accurate AOA systems in our airplanes, the norm is
to
fly 1.3 Vs which for a 60 knot Vs airplane is 78 knots, or 18 knot
margin.
Using your 1.1 Vs statement and now you're only flying with a 6 knot
margin
which can disappear instantaneously in *GUSTY* conditions. Like you
said,
you've got to be careful and smart and weigh all factors, especially the
environmental ones, that affect the approach. If you don't know what
your
airplane stalls at both heavily loaded and lightly loaded in varying
configurations, find out next time you fly.
John Hilterman
As Brian said, --<SIGH!>--- He didn't say fly the approach at
1.1 vso, he said experiment with how the plane HANDLES at those speeds.
<sigh>,, Just don't know about these NAVY pilots-----:>)))) As to the
rest of the statement, lighten up, John. That is all just knowing how
your plane handles under different conditions, and that is exactly what
Brian and I have been promoting. That's just simply becoming a competent
pilot. NOT an airplane driver, which is so darned much of what is taught
today.
Lee Taylor
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
johnhilterman1@cox.net wrote:
> I pretty much agree with what you're saying Brian except the last paragraph.
> Since we don't have accurate AOA systems in our airplanes, the norm is to
> fly 1.3 Vs which for a 60 knot Vs airplane is 78 knots, or 18 knot margin.
If you know what Vs is.
> Using your 1.1 Vs statement and now you're only flying with a 6 knot margin
> which can disappear instantaneously in *GUSTY* conditions.
Correct. One wouldn't do that except on a calm day.
> Like you said,
> you've got to be careful and smart and weigh all factors, especially the
> environmental ones, that affect the approach.
Right.
> If you don't know what your
> airplane stalls at both heavily loaded and lightly loaded in varying
> configurations, find out next time you fly.
And most people don't do that nearly often enough.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Lee,
Flare to land, squat to pee comes to mind here!!!
What were you sitting alert in?
John Hilterman
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
johnhilterman1@cox.net
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Let's be careful telling people about flying slower on final because it
was
easier to land it that way.
Very simply. Proper airspeed for the particular plane in the
particular circumstance IS proper airspeed. Anything else isn't
optimum. An airplane driver who cannot control his airspeed is not in
control of his airplane.
OBTW, this is why I like Navy carrier airplanes and their approach to
flying
*ON SPEED* during an approach to land using angle of attack. On speed
is on
speed. Doesn't matter a rats ass what the aircraft weighs because if
your
on speed your flying the optimum AOA, not some arbitrary IAS. The only
time
I ever looked at my airspeed in the HUD was after I dirtied up and was
trimmed on speed and then I was just cross checking to make sure my AOA
system wasn't in left field.
That works just fine for planes like that. BUT, I know of very
few civilian planes that have AOA's. And by the way, (being an ex Air
Force type, :>), Who spent a LOT of time in the alert hangers at the
end of our runway watching many jet takeoffs and landings, which the
Navy pilots from Pt. Mugu used to use often for practice), NAVY pilots
do not know how to land. All they know is how to crash precisely on a
spot! :>)
Lee Taylor
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lee Taylor wrote:
> That works just fine for planes like that. BUT, I know of very
> few civilian planes that have AOA's.
My CJ did. My Project will too. Great instrument.
> And by the way, (being an ex Air
> Force type, :>), Who spent a LOT of time in the alert hangers at the
> end of our runway watching many jet takeoffs and landings, which the
> Navy pilots from Pt. Mugu used to use often for practice), NAVY pilots
> do not know how to land. All they know is how to crash precisely on a
> spot! :>)
Spot landing is a good skill to have. If you can do spot landings AND the airplane
is reusable after, you are well on your way.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
(Said Brian)
Yeah, and then there are the people who try to glue it on while still
going too fast. I watched a pilot try to do that but only managed to
get the nosewheel on the runway. The airplane wheelbarrowed all the way
the length of the runway and off the end. It would have been so easy to
just open the throttle and go around but she was intent on getting that
thing on the ground. What a waste of a perfectly good airplane too.
(Says Lee)
Yeah :>) I watched a guy do the exact same thing, in a 421.
Planted the nose gear in the last 800 ft of a 3200'strip. Did the same
thing, too. Very lucky we had a rather long overrun, but plane was
"rather bent" after the high-speed, off-runway groundloop after the nose
gear failed.
I have said it a million times, and will at least a million
more. Airspeed control is the PRIMARY skill of a good pilot. You have
control of your airspeed, you have control of your plane. And if you
aren't positively, safely and COMPETENTLY down in the first 1/3rd of
the runway, GO AROUND. There is NEVER any disgrace in a go-around.
There is a whole bunch if you force a bad situation.
Lee T.
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | [ Kevin Pilling ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Kevin Pilling <kjpilling@btclick.com>
Subject: Catastrophic Air Reservoir Failure
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/kjpilling@btclick.com.08.30.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
johnhilterman1@cox.net
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Lee,
Flare to land, squat to pee comes to mind here!!!
What were you sitting alert in?
John Hilterman
I was a crew chief on F-101's and F-106's, and since the rest of
my responses to your comment is just ages-old childish rehashing of the
superiority of the various services, I will politely withdraw from that
contest.
Lee Taylor
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lee Taylor wrote:
> I have said it a million times, and will at least a million
> more. Airspeed control is the PRIMARY skill of a good pilot. You have
> control of your airspeed, you have control of your plane.
Actually I might call it energy control.
> And if you
> aren't positively, safely and COMPETENTLY down in the first 1/3rd of
> the runway, GO AROUND. There is NEVER any disgrace in a go-around.
> There is a whole bunch if you force a bad situation.
And recovery is so easy.
I had a transition student in the CJ6A (I forget exactly who it was but he is on
this list) and I was demonstrating an overhead break to a landing. I bothched
it and was too hot. Went around. He said something to the effect, "gee, after
reading your posts I didn't think you would ever be one to go around." Yeah,
I do. Fuel for an extra lap is a lot cheaper than a bent airplane. Ego
damage from bending an airplane is a lot greater than ego damage from realizing
you blew the approach. No one is 100% all the time. Sometimes we just make
mistakes. Shrug it off, fix the problem, and do it over.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Lee,
This is what he said: "So if you are smart and careful, you will go out and
find the stall IAS for your airplane and then fly approaches down to about
1.1 Vs to see how the airplane performs." Now I didn't read anywhere in
there about DOING IT AT ALTITUDE. That's why I spoke up. And don't give me
the "common sense" argument here. A lot of people aren't around anymore
because of stupid shit like this.
All three of us are in agreement here about being a competent pilot and
knowing when you're getting close to the envelope edge of your airplane.
True, there are a lot of people being trained to be "airplane drivers" as
you call them and I would bet quite a few of them read the yak list. I just
don't won't someone on this list that may not have a lot of experience to go
out and try something new or different based on what they read here and find
themselves in a bad situation.
Normally I shut up when it comes to posting things on this list but on this
subject I didn't feel compelled to "lighten up".
John Hilterman
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
I pretty much agree with what you're saying Brian except the last
paragraph.
Since we don't have accurate AOA systems in our airplanes, the norm is
to
fly 1.3 Vs which for a 60 knot Vs airplane is 78 knots, or 18 knot
margin.
Using your 1.1 Vs statement and now you're only flying with a 6 knot
margin
which can disappear instantaneously in *GUSTY* conditions. Like you
said,
you've got to be careful and smart and weigh all factors, especially the
environmental ones, that affect the approach. If you don't know what
your
airplane stalls at both heavily loaded and lightly loaded in varying
configurations, find out next time you fly.
John Hilterman
As Brian said, --<SIGH!>--- He didn't say fly the approach at
1.1 vso, he said experiment with how the plane HANDLES at those speeds.
<sigh>,, Just don't know about these NAVY pilots-----:>)))) As to the
rest of the statement, lighten up, John. That is all just knowing how
your plane handles under different conditions, and that is exactly what
Brian and I have been promoting. That's just simply becoming a competent
pilot. NOT an airplane driver, which is so darned much of what is taught
today.
Lee Taylor
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Truce.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
johnhilterman1@cox.net
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Lee,
Flare to land, squat to pee comes to mind here!!!
What were you sitting alert in?
John Hilterman
I was a crew chief on F-101's and F-106's, and since the rest of
my responses to your comment is just ages-old childish rehashing of the
superiority of the various services, I will politely withdraw from that
contest.
Lee Taylor
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Well thank god thats over !!
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
> --> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
>
> Truce.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> johnhilterman1@cox.net
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
>
> Lee,
>
> Flare to land, squat to pee comes to mind here!!!
>
> What were you sitting alert in?
>
> John Hilterman
>
> I was a crew chief on F-101's and F-106's, and since the rest of
> my responses to your comment is just ages-old childish rehashing of the
> superiority of the various services, I will politely withdraw from that
> contest.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
johnhilterman1@cox.net
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Lee,
This is what he said: "So if you are smart and careful, you will go out
and
find the stall IAS for your airplane and then fly approaches down to
about
1.1 Vs to see how the airplane performs." Now I didn't read anywhere in
there about DOING IT AT ALTITUDE. That's why I spoke up. And don't
give me
the "common sense" argument here. A lot of people aren't around anymore
because of stupid shit like this.
All three of us are in agreement here about being a competent pilot and
knowing when you're getting close to the envelope edge of your airplane.
True, there are a lot of people being trained to be "airplane drivers"
as
you call them and I would bet quite a few of them read the yak list. I
just
don't won't someone on this list that may not have a lot of experience
to go
out and try something new or different based on what they read here and
find
themselves in a bad situation.
Normally I shut up when it comes to posting things on this list but on
this
subject I didn't feel compelled to "lighten up".
John Hilterman
Joh, we were ALL naive students at one time. If we are
reasonably smart, we still are. Everyone learns from experience, and by
trying stuff. Hopefully, those of us that are a little older and have
made MANY dumb mistakes, can help the younger guys have good
experiences. Personally, I find these lists to be extremely
informative, and since we very rarely hold on-airport "bull sessions"
any more, where the students gained the experience the ways that us "old
fogies" did, this is a very good substitute.
Now, of course, in the "old days", you and I would have probably
ended up in a drunken fist-fight, and be lifelong great friends
afterwards!
Lee T.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
I pretty much agree with what you're saying Brian except the last
paragraph.
Since we don't have accurate AOA systems in our airplanes, the norm is
to
fly 1.3 Vs which for a 60 knot Vs airplane is 78 knots, or 18 knot
margin.
Using your 1.1 Vs statement and now you're only flying with a 6 knot
margin
which can disappear instantaneously in *GUSTY* conditions. Like you
said,
you've got to be careful and smart and weigh all factors, especially the
environmental ones, that affect the approach. If you don't know what
your
airplane stalls at both heavily loaded and lightly loaded in varying
configurations, find out next time you fly.
John Hilterman
As Brian said, --<SIGH!>--- He didn't say fly the approach at
1.1 vso, he said experiment with how the plane HANDLES at those speeds.
<sigh>,, Just don't know about these NAVY pilots-----:>)))) As to the
rest of the statement, lighten up, John. That is all just knowing how
your plane handles under different conditions, and that is exactly what
Brian and I have been promoting. That's just simply becoming a competent
pilot. NOT an airplane driver, which is so darned much of what is taught
today.
Lee Taylor
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | pilots and tea-carts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernie
Subject: Re: Yak-List: pilots and tea-carts
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Well thank god thats over !!
Ernie
Nah, ain't ever over, Ernie. Us childish egomaniacs just put away the
swords until the next time!
Lee :>) :>) :>)
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: LOAs and Type Ratings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
As I understand it, if you got trained today on a jet or prop plane over 800
HP you would still get an LOA, which you could then convert to the ETR at
Reno, ect.
When the various programs are in place and you get trained on a jet or prop
plane > 800 HP (by an authorized instructor, who probably used to have an
LOOA), then you will have to go take a checkride (like you do for a type
rating) with a person who is more or less a Designated Examiner for that
model of plane.
As far as I know there are no authorized instructors now or designated
examiners yet, so the only way to get an ETR (we can call them that, but the
new license that I got at Oshkosh doesn't say ETR for my permission to fly
an L-39) is to get an LOA and then "convert it" to the ETR, by asking, in
person, at Reno.
Does anybody know of any CFIs with an ETR on their CFI certificate? Anyone
know of any Designated Examiners with warbirds on their list of authorized
planes? If so, please correct me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: LOAs and Type Ratings
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> Not exactly.......If you wish to fly an airplane which requires an LOA
then
> you must go through the LOA checkride process through an approved LOOA
> holder. The FAA is converting LOA's to ETR's at certain events only (S&F,
> OSH and Reno) you must do it in person you cannot mail in your current
LOA.
> There are only 2 people in the country knowledgeable about the process
Disk
> Hanusa and I forget the other guys name. You cannot just ask for an ETR
> instead of an LOA.
>
> Ernie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: LOAs and Type Ratings
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> >
> > ETR (experimental type rating) is easy to say and remember, but
apparently
> > they decided not to go with that terminology. Your license (which is
> > properly called a pilot certificate) will say "authorized experimental
> > aircraft" and then letters for the manufacturer and model number.
> >
> > Warbirds magazine has periodic updates on the program. So far there is
no
> > way to get one (that I know of) except to convert an LOA. The program
for
> > certifying instructors and check pilots isn't in place yet. Therefore,
if
> > you get trained now and get an LOA you can just ask for the ETR instead
of
> > paying for an expensive checkride. Why yes, now is a good time to get
> > trained in all the jets and high power pistons you plan to fly in the
> > forseeable future.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roy O. Wright" <roy@wright.org>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: LOAs and Type Ratings
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roy O. Wright" <roy@wright.org>
> > >
> > > Where can I find info on the new ETRs?
> > >
> > > TIA,
> > > Roy
> > >
> > >
> > > ',,'',,'',,',,'
> > > Roy Wright 512.378.1234 mailto:royw@cisco.com
> > > Cisco Systems import com.cisco.std-disclaimer
> > > "Experience is the thing you get the moment after you needed to have
> it."
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: LOAs and Type Ratings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Here is a post by Jon Bode from the L39 list:
I just returned from the NWOC, where the FAA rolled out the Experimental
Type Rating program. In fact, those people who had their pilot's certificate
and a copy of their LOA were able to go up to the FAA's "office" at the
hotel and turn those things in for a new certificate with the ETR on it.
This program will be rolled out over the next two years. However, the
current LOA and LOOA programs are still in place -- if your FSDO stalls on
you, noting that the new program is "coming" and so they're confused about
what to do in the mean time, point them at Dick Hanusa @ the Milwaukee FSDO
or Sue Gardner AFS-802.
LOAs will be grandfathered -- show your pilot's certificate and your LOA
and they'll reissue your certificate with the ETR on it. NWOC was the first
"get together" that the FAA sent a team to in order to get this rolling.
They're going to do it again at Sun and Fun and hope to have the LOOA things
rolling at that time as well.
The "unlimited" LOA is going away. However, you can get an ETR on your
certificate for everything you can show you've flown.
A BFR-like flight review will be required every two years to keep your ETR
going. GOOD NEWS: Taking a flight review in ANY aircraft for which you hold
an ETR coveres you for EVERY aircraft for which you hold an ETR.
Currency rules are a little tighter... To maintain currency you'll have to
show one hour of flight time and 3 T/O&Ls every six months in the same
aircraft "group" (explained below) or comparable, for jet aircraft same
group and same manufacturer. They classed aircraft into the following
groups:
Groups I-IV - Piston Powered
Group I - SE Conventional Gear
Group II - SE Tricycle Gear
Group III - ME Only Two Engines
Group IV - ME More than Two Engines
Groups V-IX - Jet
Group V - SE Straight Wing
Group VI - ME Straight Wing
Group VII - SE Swept Wing, Subsonic
Group VIII - SE Swept Wing, Supersonic
Group IX - ME Swept Wing, Supersonic
Again, for currency in jets it's same-group, same manufacturer... if
you're current in a L-29, you're current in the L-39, but not the T-33.
Things like VFR-only will carry over to the limitations on your
certificate. Unclear if "no acro" will carry over, "no formation" limitation
will NOT carry over.
Instructors and LOOAs...
LOOAs will be replaced by AI - Authorized Instructor. To be an AI, you
don't need to be a CFI, but they'll expect you to pass the FOI (Fundamentals
of Instruction) written exam (which is a pretty easy exam). If you have an
ETR + CFI then you can give instruction, although it's unclear if you can
exercise ALL the privileges of an AI.
To become an AI, you'll need to be recommended by a sponsoring
organization like the CJAA, CAF, Warbirds, etc. They're looking for 2,000
TT, 500 HP, 100 in type, and LOA/ETR for two years.
Not only can AIs recommend you for the flight test necessary to get a new
ETR, but they can also sign you off for a solo. Which is to say: No more
temporary LOAs from the FSDO, instead an AI can sign you off for solo
flight. Whether you need to meet ALL the requirements* necessary for the ETR
in order to solo is unclear.
*Requirements for new ETRs. Same 1,000 hours, 500 hrs PIC like for the LOA
now. PLUS: They're adding the requirement of an Instrument Rating, which
most of the people in the jet breakout session found to be -- well, let's
just say that it was the source of considerable discussion. :-) Then an AI
recommends you and you take a checkride -- NOTE that the checkride will be
to ATP standards. They said, "Hey, all other type ratings are to ATP
standards." Be prepared to nail that single-engine ILS in your Fouga. :-)
Experimental Aircraft Examiners (EAEs)...
They want to start with a VERY short list of examiners for each type, like
a half-dozen. In order to become an examiner, you'll need to be recommended
by a national sponsoring organization like Warbirds, CJAA, CAF, etc.
There will be a national program manager out of the FAA that will run the
whole EAE shindig.
They're still working out the whole EAE thing, which will come after they
get the other programs up and running.
Jon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: LOAs and Type Ratings
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> As I understand it, if you got trained today on a jet or prop plane over
800
> HP you would still get an LOA, which you could then convert to the ETR at
> Reno, ect.
>
> When the various programs are in place and you get trained on a jet or
prop
> plane > 800 HP (by an authorized instructor, who probably used to have an
> LOOA), then you will have to go take a checkride (like you do for a type
> rating) with a person who is more or less a Designated Examiner for that
> model of plane.
>
> As far as I know there are no authorized instructors now or designated
> examiners yet, so the only way to get an ETR (we can call them that, but
the
> new license that I got at Oshkosh doesn't say ETR for my permission to fly
> an L-39) is to get an LOA and then "convert it" to the ETR, by asking, in
> person, at Reno.
>
> Does anybody know of any CFIs with an ETR on their CFI certificate?
Anyone
> know of any Designated Examiners with warbirds on their list of authorized
> planes? If so, please correct me.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: LOAs and Type Ratings
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> >
> > Not exactly.......If you wish to fly an airplane which requires an LOA
> then
> > you must go through the LOA checkride process through an approved LOOA
> > holder. The FAA is converting LOA's to ETR's at certain events only
(S&F,
> > OSH and Reno) you must do it in person you cannot mail in your current
> LOA.
> > There are only 2 people in the country knowledgeable about the process
> Disk
> > Hanusa and I forget the other guys name. You cannot just ask for an ETR
> > instead of an LOA.
> >
> > Ernie
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: LOAs and Type Ratings
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > ETR (experimental type rating) is easy to say and remember, but
> apparently
> > > they decided not to go with that terminology. Your license (which is
> > > properly called a pilot certificate) will say "authorized experimental
> > > aircraft" and then letters for the manufacturer and model number.
> > >
> > > Warbirds magazine has periodic updates on the program. So far there
is
> no
> > > way to get one (that I know of) except to convert an LOA. The program
> for
> > > certifying instructors and check pilots isn't in place yet.
Therefore,
> if
> > > you get trained now and get an LOA you can just ask for the ETR
instead
> of
> > > paying for an expensive checkride. Why yes, now is a good time to get
> > > trained in all the jets and high power pistons you plan to fly in the
> > > forseeable future.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Roy O. Wright" <roy@wright.org>
> > > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: LOAs and Type Ratings
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roy O. Wright" <roy@wright.org>
> > > >
> > > > Where can I find info on the new ETRs?
> > > >
> > > > TIA,
> > > > Roy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ',,'',,'',,',,'
> > > > Roy Wright 512.378.1234 mailto:royw@cisco.com
> > > > Cisco Systems import com.cisco.std-disclaimer
> > > > "Experience is the thing you get the moment after you needed to have
> > it."
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|