---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/09/03: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:02 AM - Re: Cockpit labeling Answers (Aubrey Price) 2. 04:12 AM - Re: Panel Stickers (Stuart Mackereth) 3. 04:15 AM - Re: M14 Power Settings Page Updated (Stuart Mackereth) 4. 04:19 AM - Static Air Problem ? (Stuart Mackereth) 5. 04:24 AM - Re: M14 Power Settings Page Updated (Brian Lloyd) 6. 04:43 AM - Re: Airspeed Indicator problem (A. Dennis Savarese) 7. 04:52 AM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (Brian Lloyd) 8. 05:00 AM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (A. Dennis Savarese) 9. 05:00 AM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (Ernest Martinez) 10. 05:07 AM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (A. Dennis Savarese) 11. 07:00 AM - Re: Airspeed Indicator problem (KevLCo@aol.com) 12. 07:01 AM - Detroit City Airport (Widiker, John D) 13. 07:04 AM - Canopy opens while inverted (Greg Arnold) 14. 07:20 AM - Re: Canopy opens while inverted (KevLCo@aol.com) 15. 07:30 AM - Re: Detroit City Airport (Ernest Martinez) 16. 07:32 AM - Re: Airspeed Indicator problem (Jim Ivey) 17. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Thump/Chuff (Deon Esterhuizen) 18. 07:54 AM - Re: Airspeed Indicator problem (Jim Ivey) 19. 08:08 AM - 6 & 8 mm flare tool (Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd) 20. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: Thump/Chuff (Ernest Martinez) 21. 08:13 AM - Re: Detroit City Airport (Widiker, John D) 22. 08:35 AM - Re: aerobatic training (Greg Arnold) 23. 08:35 AM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (Walt Lannon) 24. 08:43 AM - Re: aerobatic training (Greg Arnold) 25. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: aerobatic training (Ernest Martinez) 26. 03:50 PM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (Gus Fraser) 27. 03:52 PM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (Gus Fraser) 28. 04:06 PM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (Brian Lloyd) 29. 04:51 PM - Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report (MFilucci@aol.com) 30. 05:03 PM - Re: Static Air Problem ? (A. Dennis Savarese) 31. 05:16 PM - Re: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report (Brian Lloyd) 32. 06:42 PM - Re: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report (Deon Esterhuizen) 33. 06:59 PM - Yak at Kittyhawk (Gus Fraser) 34. 07:04 PM - Re: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report (Gus Fraser) 35. 07:07 PM - Re: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report (Gus Fraser) 36. 07:43 PM - Re: (JohnD623@aol.com (by way of Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:47 AM PST US From: Aubrey Price Subject: RE: Yak-List: Cockpit labeling Answers --> Yak-List message posted by: Aubrey Price Thanks you very much. This sounds like a process I used in the past. I am an Amateur Radio Operator( WB5RXA ). I used to make rub on labels with a photo process and apply them to my equipment. I have called Kodak and Polaroid and they no loner make the material. I will give him a call. Thanks again Aubrey Price N288Y http://www.tammyprice.com/yak -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Scofield [mailto:patrick@designworx.com] Subject: Yak-List: Cockpit labeling Answers --> Yak-List message posted by: Patrick Scofield Gentlemen, Listen and I will impart a couple of cockpit labeling secrets. I've been in the Industrial design field for twenty years. To build accurate product prototype models for clients we used rub-down letters. When we couldn't find the letters shapes and forms we needed we would have theme made custom. For a brief period of time there was a process called INT that you could do yourself, but it was cranky and troublesome There is still a source, I've worked with this gentleman for the past twenty years and he is likely one of two guys left in the country that makes custom rub-downs. He is used to working with professionals and if he is handled poorly he will dry up as a source. He chemically mixes the compounds and floats them in a water bath onto glass it is quit an old world process ( I hope I have this right Ken). His Name is Ken Fritz and he can be reached at ken Fritz Graphics (602) 274-2864 kenfritz@cox.net The best way to work with him is to send email him an Adobe Illustrator file, again he is not Kinko's nor is he 'Fast Signs', I send him complete files in the correct format and I don't ask him to do design (although he can). If you ask him to do more it will cost more. He can generate any color rub down in anything your master art desires, the rest is up to you. So far I've done about 18 cockpits this way, L-39's and my CJ-6. We use, yellow, blue, red, black and white rub-downs to achieve the results. I generate usable master art in Macromedia Freehand, export it as an .ai file and ask Ken to output them. Custom colors are specified using the Pantone system. He uses a UV inhibitor in the cockpit labels and a moderate tack adhesive. I apply the labels over a PPG catalyzed urethane base coat, apply a light mist of PPG clear on top (too much will lift the rub downs edges) and then two modest flood coats. Voila! Remember that rub-downs are pressure and heat sensitive and have a shelf-life of less than 6 months. Also large area labels rely too much on the label's adhesive and too little on the entombing qualities of the clear-coat, so be careful! Again I want to repeat that Ken is a real gent, rough handling will not improve his efforts, reduce his cost or speed his delivery. Patrick Scofield President Concept Designworx, Inc. 2550 N Thunderbird Circle Suite #302 Mesa, AZ 85215 USA Bus. 480-968-4125 Fax. 480-968-4126 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:08 AM PST US From: "Stuart Mackereth" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Panel Stickers --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" I've done this as a temporary measure too - and frankly, I'm quite pleased. They are a little reflective with any glare, but I believe a matt version of the plastic for lamination is available.. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roy O. Wright Subject: RE: Yak-List: Panel Stickers --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roy O. Wright" Seven years ago I used a color laser printer on photo paper to remake placards then laminated the top and double sided taped the back. I had originally intended them to be temporary until I could do it right. Surprisingly they still look like new. Have fun, Roy ',,'',,'',,',,' Roy Wright 512.378.1234 mailto:royw@cisco.com Cisco Systems import com.cisco.std-disclaimer "Experience is the thing you get the moment after you needed to have it." = == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:58 AM PST US From: "Stuart Mackereth" Subject: RE: Yak-List: M14 Power Settings Page Updated --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" Jorgen.. and to make matters worse the air pressures are either in kg/cm2 or psi or bar or kpa .. Sheesh.. Wish some intl body would wake up and set a global standard! -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jorgen Nielsen Subject: RE: Yak-List: M14 Power Settings Page Updated --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" --> And to add to that, Dennis & I have been chatting off-list & I have updated the cockpit cards with his updated info re fuel burn and blower pressure. So those folk that have the old version don't cut out and laminate just yet... Will post soon, but thought to update the cards for those who fly non-metric, so a question: do the guys in the US fly with standard ASI (kmh) or change ASI to one calibrated in MPH or KTS? FWIW, we have a funny/strange system in SA. We have been metric generally for many decades now, and most people cannot relate to MPH or inches, feet etc. But for flying, we think in kts and nautical miles for speed & distance, in feet for altitude but hectopascal / millibar for pressure. When asking for taxi or joining at airfield with ATC, we are given QNH (in hectopascals) in order to set our altimeters (in feet) to read altitude AMSL correctly. My Yak has all standard Russian metric instrumentation except for altimeter. I see checklists etc. posted on US sites that read in MPH though, hence the question. Also FWIW, when driving if someone talks about miles or speed as MPH, it means nothing and I can't relate without first doing some math. But when flying, the reverse is true. If given km or kmh, I first have to convert to nm and kts before I can relate. I guess everything is relative. Jorgen -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Subject: Yak-List: M14 Power Settings Page Updated --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" For all those folks flying behind a 360 HP M14P, I have just updated the POWER SETTINGS page on my web site, www.yak-52.com, to include a column showing fuel consumption in gallons and liters per hour. Also have added the actual manifold pressures where the chart from the engine and operation manual (and the chart on the web site) says "SURPLUS". Hope you find this helpful. Dennis = == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:35 AM PST US From: "Stuart Mackereth" Subject: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. Stuart Yak52 -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez Subject: Yak-List: Prop Balancing --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" --> Has anyone ever had the prop on the Housai dynamically balanced?? Ernie = == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:18 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: M14 Power Settings Page Updated --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Stuart Mackereth wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" > > Jorgen.. and to make matters worse the air pressures are either in > kg/cm2 or psi or bar or kpa .. Sheesh.. Wish some intl body would wake > up and set a global standard! (This is a [mis]quote and I can't remember to whom to grant attribution.) The great thing about standards is there are so many of them! If you don't like the current one just wait a bit and someone will come up with one more to your liking! (Another:) Be careful what you ask for; you may get it. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:53 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Airspeed Indicator problem --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" Or could it possibly be a failure of the diaphragm internal to the ASI? This assumes only a single ASI has the problem. If it is common to both front and rear, remove the left wing root panel and verify the pitot and static lines from the wing to the fuselage, including the moisture traps, are connected properly. To test for the correct line at the wing root, trace the lines from the moisture traps to the fuselage and to the wing root. Then remove the b nut fittings at the wing root and have someone blow compressed air into the pitot tube. Obviously, the fitting at the wing root that you can feel the air pressure is the pitot line. Look inside the cockpit where the lines come to the T fitting inside the fuselage. The T fitting with the white lines is the static line. Just above that one diagonally is the pitot T fitting. It will have the black lines on it. Trace the connection on the outside of the fuselage, through the moisture trap, to the b-nut at the wing root where you had felt the air pressure earlier. Hope this helps. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Airspeed Indicator problem > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" > > Sounds like the pitot and static lines are reversed. Since you have not > indicated a discrepancy with the altimeter or rate of climb it suggests the > screw up is at the ASI. > > Walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Coppersmith" > To: > Subject: Yak-List: Airspeed Indicator problem > > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: Bryan Coppersmith > > > > I recently read an article where someone (in USA I think) had a problem > > with their airspeed indicator operating in reverse. We have the same > > problem on one of our Yak 52's here in New Zealand but I can no longer > > find the article. > > > > Does anyone have a link to the article or know what causes this problem? > > > > Thanks > > > > BJ > > _______________ > > Bryan Coppersmith > > Tel: 647 864 9020 > > Fax: 647 864 9087 > > Mob: 6421 445 933 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:15 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Stuart Mackereth wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" > > Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the > canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis > was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. You have a leak in the static system. Start checking the static lines. The Yak-52 has some additional things to check too because the rear cockpit can fail the front instruments as I recall. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:11 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" Yep! I did. How does and ASI drop 100 feet? Do you mean your altimeter? If so, you have a static system leak. Your ASI, VSI and Altimeter should all be affected when you open/close the canopy. Look for the two rubber hoses behind the rear seat that went to the flight recorder. One will be connected to a white metal tube (static) and the other to a black metal tube (pitot). Most likely one or both are unplugged. When the flight recorder is removed, some people forget to plug these lines and your symptoms are precisely what you see as the result. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Mackereth" Subject: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" > > Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the > canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis > was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. > > Stuart > Yak52 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest > Martinez > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Yak-List: Prop Balancing > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" > --> > > Has anyone ever had the prop on the Housai dynamically balanced?? > > Ernie > > > > == > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > == > == > == > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:16 AM PST US From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" On my airplane there is a T in the pitot and static lines behind the panel, one end of the T is plugged, if the plug was not there for the static line then there could be a pressure differential between the cabin and where the static port is. Its very possible for the cabin pressure to increase if you crack open the canopy. I would think that the cabin pressure would decrease since an opened canopy would probably cause a venture effect, but I'm not a fluid dynamacist. Also I cant remember if there is an alternate airsource for our planes, I know the jet has 2 pitot tubes that I can select from, but don't think there is one in the 52/CJ. Ernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Mackereth Subject: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. Stuart Yak52 -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez Subject: Yak-List: Prop Balancing --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" --> Has anyone ever had the prop on the Housai dynamically balanced?? Ernie = == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == = == == == == ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:34 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" Correct Brian. It's the two lines that went to the flight recorder. When the flight recorder is remove, many times we find both the pitot and static rubber hoses left unplugged. The indication is higher airspeed with the canopy open and a drop of about 10 or so MPH (+ -) with the canopy closed. Sort of like an alternate static source in the 172's. Most folks are very disappointed when they find their YAK 52 is not as fast as they thought it was when they plug the lines properly. I was one of those people 4 1/2 years ago. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lloyd" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > Stuart Mackereth wrote: > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" > > > > Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the > > canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis > > was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. > > You have a leak in the static system. Start checking the static lines. The Yak-52 has some additional things to check too because the rear cockpit can fail the front instruments as I recall. > > -- > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 > brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 > +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax > GMT-4 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:43 AM PST US From: KevLCo@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Airspeed Indicator problem --> Yak-List message posted by: KevLCo@aol.com Here's a cool one~ funny the subject should come up. Yesterday I tried to do a pitot/static check on the -52, and the test showed a massive leak on the pressure side. I had hooked up the test box to the pitot head, via large tubing and reducers. After splitting the system at the wing root, and finding that the problem was in the wing, I found that the pitot head is not a sealed unit! The wires for the heater pass through the impact air chamber, and while it doesn't affect the system, you can't test it this way. Freakin Ruskies. Every other airplane I've ever tested is a sinch from the pitot head with tubing. Solution: I pulled the pitot head (thanks, Carl for tips on how-to) and attached the test box directly to the lines at the back of the pitot head. Everything was happy after that. Ok, not everything. I have a few minor leaks to fix behind the panel~ I changed out all the rubber for cracking. To the subject at hand: The ASI takes dual input from both the static system and pressure system to allow for altitude compensation to airspeed, right? The higher up you go, the thinner the air, and the resultant speed must be so compensated. The bellows is surrounded by atmospheric on the outside, and impact pressure on the inside. If you loose your pressure source (remember my cracking rubber?), and all the ASI receives is static, it will work backwards. Just something to think about. Good luck! Kevin N152YK Vegas, baby, yeah! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:32 AM PST US From: "Widiker, John D" Subject: Yak-List: Detroit City Airport --> Yak-List message posted by: "Widiker, John D" The Warbirds list seems to be a ghost town, I'm hoping someone here may have an idea, I hope nobody is upset that it's not Yak specific, and apologize if this is not an appropriate list post. I'm trying to identify a P-51 that collided with me in the late 80s. The accident occurred at Detroit City Airport in 1988 or 1989. I've been telling the story for years now and think it would be fun to know what specific plane it was. Here's a short list of the details, maybe someone could suggest a way to find more about the specific plane. I was taking my first flight lesson with an instructor from Olsen Flight service and had preflighted and taxied to a place to wait for clearance. We watched a man land a P51 Mustang, the instructor remarked that the man had 2 of them at this time. While waiting I noticed that the Mustang was not weaving as I would expect with a tail dragger but instead progressing straight along and headed toward us at a considerable rate. I remarked a few times that he was going to hit us, and much to the instructors surprise it happened. The planes right wing struck the tail and rear cockpit of our plane ripping it almost completely off the airframe. We spun several times and came to a stop. Upon exiting the aircraft it was very surprising to us that with the total destruction of the rear of our 4 place aircraft the Mustang didn't even have a scratch on it. We filled out some paper work and called it a day. Here's where I'm having trouble. Detroit City is as far as I can tell almost completely deserted. The only person I've been able to speak to there has been a janitor. Olsen flight service is out of business (Jan the owner was a very very nice lady). I've not been able to find the incident posted anywhere either. Any suggestions as to how I might solve the mystery of this Mustangs identity?? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. ~John ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:28 AM PST US From: "Greg Arnold" Subject: Yak-List: Canopy opens while inverted --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" The other day while flying inverted the front canopy blew open and I lost my headset..darn it!!. Anyway I thought maybe I just didn't latch the canopy right so I latched it real good and rolled the 52 and there went the canopy again. I figured either the latch is worn or the bearings are worn. I cleaned out the canopy bearings and found lots of metal dust in the runs. So I guess I need to pull the canopy off and rebuild the thing, or? Anybody done this before? Any suggestions before I tear into this? Also, what's a good product for getting Plexiglas/lexan clear? I have some mild hazing in the back canopy that looks like someone tried to clean it with a brush or something (very tiny fine scratches). Regards, Greg Arnold (251) 680-4673 (cell) catfsh4u@bellsouth.net ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:38 AM PST US From: KevLCo@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Canopy opens while inverted --> Yak-List message posted by: KevLCo@aol.com Hmmm... metal dust? Has your canopy been worked on lately? Anyone installed new transparencies in the last few years? The reason I ask is that the rollers are attached to fittings, and the fittings are installed with spacers (washers) underneath a few of them to properly align the roller screws into the slider rail. If the roller screws are at an odd angle, then a the canopy won't slide easily, as the bearing is at an angle with the rail it slides back and forth in. Unlatching in flight? There is a spring in the latch that holds it down into the adjustment holes~ I wonder if maybe the spring has broken? The adjusting holes in the canopy rail should be crisp around the circumference. If chamfered, they provide a "ramp" for the latch to ride up and out on. Is the latch fully engaging in the hole? On ours, I've had to message the canopy back and forth to allow the the latch pin to fall completely into the adjusting hole. Dirt loves to accumulate in the latch mechanism, it's where our gruby hands reach several times during each flight. The latching cable that goes overhead to the grab ball sometimes gets dirty, bent or kinked. It travels inside a small tube as it passes through the bow frame, and can grab or drag inside that guide tube, not allowing the latch to fall completely into the hole. Is there any lateral or horizontal play in the canopy while it's closed, or partially closed? Does it work up or down? All it takes is maybe 1/2 an inch of play and the latch pin comes clear of the hole. Hope this helps. Good luck. Verify condition of the adjustment holes, verify proper and full engagement of the latching pin into these holes, tension of the spring to hold it in place, and security of the canopy. Kevin N152YK Vegas ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:01 AM PST US From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Detroit City Airport --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" If you filed the accident, then there should be an NTSB report. Goto NTSB.gov and to a search, you can use the N number of the plane you were in to find the incident. Ernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Widiker, John D Subject: Yak-List: Detroit City Airport --> Yak-List message posted by: "Widiker, John D" The Warbirds list seems to be a ghost town, I'm hoping someone here may have an idea, I hope nobody is upset that it's not Yak specific, and apologize if this is not an appropriate list post. I'm trying to identify a P-51 that collided with me in the late 80s. The accident occurred at Detroit City Airport in 1988 or 1989. I've been telling the story for years now and think it would be fun to know what specific plane it was. Here's a short list of the details, maybe someone could suggest a way to find more about the specific plane. I was taking my first flight lesson with an instructor from Olsen Flight service and had preflighted and taxied to a place to wait for clearance. We watched a man land a P51 Mustang, the instructor remarked that the man had 2 of them at this time. While waiting I noticed that the Mustang was not weaving as I would expect with a tail dragger but instead progressing straight along and headed toward us at a considerable rate. I remarked a few times that he was going to hit us, and much to the instructors surprise it happened. The planes right wing struck the tail and rear cockpit of our plane ripping it almost completely off the airframe. We spun several times and came to a stop. Upon exiting the aircraft it was very surprising to us that with the total destruction of the rear of our 4 place aircraft the Mustang didn't even have a scratch on it. We filled out some paper work and called it a day. Here's where I'm having trouble. Detroit City is as far as I can tell almost completely deserted. The only person I've been able to speak to there has been a janitor. Olsen flight service is out of business (Jan the owner was a very very nice lady). I've not been able to find the incident posted anywhere either. Any suggestions as to how I might solve the mystery of this Mustangs identity?? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. ~John = == == == == ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:04 AM PST US From: "Jim Ivey" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Airspeed Indicator problem --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Ivey" Kevin: The ASI does take dual input, one is the static pressure (as you pointed out) and the other is the pitot pressure which is technically "Total Pressure". Total pressure is the sum of both static and dynamic pressure and by itself is not useful. For an ASI to indicate speed it is only concerned with the dynamic pressure component of total pressure. In order to get this result it must subtract static pressure from total pressure, leaving this dynamic pressure. If you loose pitot pressure then that side of the diaphragm will read the ambient pressure of the cockpit or the ambient pressure of wherever the break in the pitot line is. Thus the ASI will read the difference between that new unwanted pressure and the static pressure. If this unwanted pressure is lower than static then the ASI will have the tendency to move backwards. The ASI is the only instrument attached to the pitot pressure line and therefore in this scenario the other instruments will not show problems as they only depend on static pressure. It was not uncommon for small light slow aircraft built before WWII to have their static pressure ports on their instruments vented to the cabin. The errors involved were not important to Cub and Taylorcraft guys. > -----Original Message----- > > To the subject at hand: The ASI takes dual input from both > the static system > and pressure system to allow for altitude compensation to > airspeed, right? > The higher up you go, the thinner the air, and the resultant > speed must be so > compensated. The bellows is surrounded by atmospheric on the > outside, and > impact pressure on the inside. If you loose your pressure > source (remember my > cracking rubber?), and all the ASI receives is static, it > will work backwards. > Just something to think about. Good luck! > > Kevin > N152YK > Vegas, baby, yeah! ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff From: "Deon Esterhuizen" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Deon Esterhuizen" Greg, I did a three day course with Nikolay last November. He does as far as I know all training at Keystone Heights. Extremely good pilot (obviously) - we did a lot of flat spin training. Let me know when you want to do your training, I might just join you - the more students the cheaper, and I have a lot of friends in Jacksonville - we can overnight there. Deon. N192YK Tampa -----Original Message----- From: Greg Arnold [mailto:catfsh4u@bellsouth.net] Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Basiliere" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" > > Boy are you lucky... The "best of the best" is in Ocala, FL. Nikolay > Timofeev former World Aerobatic and European Grand Prix Champion, on and > on. Not only has the man shown HE can do it he also can teach it. I > have seen him teach levels from Sportsman to Unlimited and a couple of > WAC competitors at the same camp. They all benefitted. > niktim@earthlink.net is his e-mail 352-861-7437 and 352-804-2225 > One of those phone #'s may not be good now. > Respectfully, Rick > PS. Yes, I have used him and will again Rick: Wow. Thanks for information. That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I'll give Mr. Timofeev a call/email this week and see what his schedule looks like. Best Regards, Greg Arnold = == == == == ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:08 AM PST US From: "Jim Ivey" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Airspeed Indicator problem --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Ivey" By the way, when working on the pitot lines or pressure checking, always disconnect your ASI as it only takes a couple of PSI to break it (never even blow into your pitot tube by mouth). If clearing obstructions with an air hose disconnect ASI and blow from the cockpit side of the system out. Jim ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:15 AM PST US From: "Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd" Subject: Yak-List: 6 & 8 mm flare tool --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd" YAK and CJ owners. I have noted how difficult it is for you to make up new 6 & 8mm pipes for your a/c. We have the tools for this in the UK. cost for tools with 6 + 8mm collects is 273$. The 6mm pipes is 7.5 meters for $48 This is car brake pipe rated at about 4500psi. The working pressure on the YAK is 730psi. I am just about to place an order for the flare tool and could obtain others if required. prices are plus shipping. Pls advise direct to mark@yakuk.com This mail could appear to be advertising but its a service if I don't tell you about you wont know and could get a lot of owners out of trouble. Best regards Mark Jefferies : Managing director YAK UK Ltd Little Gransden Airfield, Sandy, Beds SG19 3BP, England. ( +44 (0)1767 651156 Office + 651157 fax ( +44 (0)7785 538 317 Mobile : Conditions/ terms of business ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:53 AM PST US From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" I'd be interested in participating also. Nikolay lives right near me, we could do the training here at Leeward Air Ranch since we have an aerobatic box. There are some nice hotels located here in Ocala on the main drag nice restaurants, and we wouldn't have to pay for Nikolays Hotel room. Ernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deon Esterhuizen Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff --> Yak-List message posted by: "Deon Esterhuizen" Greg, I did a three day course with Nikolay last November. He does as far as I know all training at Keystone Heights. Extremely good pilot (obviously) - we did a lot of flat spin training. Let me know when you want to do your training, I might just join you - the more students the cheaper, and I have a lot of friends in Jacksonville - we can overnight there. Deon. N192YK Tampa -----Original Message----- From: Greg Arnold [mailto:catfsh4u@bellsouth.net] Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Basiliere" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" > > Boy are you lucky... The "best of the best" is in Ocala, FL. Nikolay > Timofeev former World Aerobatic and European Grand Prix Champion, on and > on. Not only has the man shown HE can do it he also can teach it. I > have seen him teach levels from Sportsman to Unlimited and a couple of > WAC competitors at the same camp. They all benefitted. > niktim@earthlink.net is his e-mail 352-861-7437 and 352-804-2225 > One of those phone #'s may not be good now. > Respectfully, Rick > PS. Yes, I have used him and will again Rick: Wow. Thanks for information. That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I'll give Mr. Timofeev a call/email this week and see what his schedule looks like. Best Regards, Greg Arnold = == == == == = == == == == ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:26 AM PST US From: "Widiker, John D" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Detroit City Airport --> Yak-List message posted by: "Widiker, John D" Thank you very much!! I found it by doing a date search at that site. The Mustang that hit me was N6341T, further searching shows that it is now owned by Jack Roush and is painted currently as "Old Crow" I was at an airshow this summer where the Roush plane was and showed my wife what part of the Mustang hit us, not knowing, IT WAS THE ONE THAT HIT US!! Thanks again! I'm laughing so hard right now.. ~John -----Original Message----- From: Ernest Martinez [mailto:ernest.martinez@oracle.com] Subject: RE: Yak-List: Detroit City Airport --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" --> If you filed the accident, then there should be an NTSB report. Goto NTSB.gov and to a search, you can use the N number of the plane you were in to find the incident. Ernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Widiker, John D Subject: Yak-List: Detroit City Airport --> Yak-List message posted by: "Widiker, John D" The Warbirds list seems to be a ghost town, I'm hoping someone here may have an idea, I hope nobody is upset that it's not Yak specific, and apologize if this is not an appropriate list post. I'm trying to identify a P-51 that collided with me in the late 80s. The accident occurred at Detroit City Airport in 1988 or 1989. I've been telling the story for years now and think it would be fun to know what specific plane it was. Here's a short list of the details, maybe someone could suggest a way to find more about the specific plane. I was taking my first flight lesson with an instructor from Olsen Flight service and had preflighted and taxied to a place to wait for clearance. We watched a man land a P51 Mustang, the instructor remarked that the man had 2 of them at this time. While waiting I noticed that the Mustang was not weaving as I would expect with a tail dragger but instead progressing straight along and headed toward us at a considerable rate. I remarked a few times that he was going to hit us, and much to the instructors surprise it happened. The planes right wing struck the tail and rear cockpit of our plane ripping it almost completely off the airframe. We spun several times and came to a stop. Upon exiting the aircraft it was very surprising to us that with the total destruction of the rear of our 4 place aircraft the Mustang didn't even have a scratch on it. We filled out some paper work and called it a day. Here's where I'm having trouble. Detroit City is as far as I can tell almost completely deserted. The only person I've been able to speak to there has been a janitor. Olsen flight service is out of business (Jan the owner was a very very nice lady). I've not been able to find the incident posted anywhere either. Any suggestions as to how I might solve the mystery of this Mustangs identity?? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. ~John = == == == == advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:00 AM PST US From: "Greg Arnold" Subject: Yak-List: Re: aerobatic training --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deon Esterhuizen" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Deon Esterhuizen" > > Greg, > > I did a three day course with Nikolay last November. He does as far as I > know all training at Keystone Heights. Extremely good pilot (obviously) > - we did a lot of flat spin training. Let me know when you want to do > your training, I might just join you - the more students the cheaper, > and I have a lot of friends in Jacksonville - we can overnight there. > > Deon. > N192YK > Tampa > Deon, Sounds great --Lets do it. Email me off-list. I would like to see if we can get something scheduled in the next few months. I'm pretty flexible with my time right now. Greg N624PT Mobile ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:15 AM PST US From: "Walt Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lloyd" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > Stuart Mackereth wrote: > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" > > > > Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the > > canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis > > was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. > > You have a leak in the static system. Start checking the static lines. The Yak-52 has some additional things to check too because the rear cockpit can fail the front instruments as I recall The static system is common to both cockpits in the CJ as well. The leak can be anywhere in the system, most likely a poor hose in either cockpit. > -- > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 > brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 > +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax > GMT-4 > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:28 AM PST US From: "Greg Arnold" Subject: Yak-List: re: aerobatic training --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" Ernie: That's great. As I said I'm available anytime to do this training. I just need a heads-up..a week or so notice would be great. Winter-early Spring time is best for me. I guess I better get my canopy latch fixed... Greg N624PT Mobile ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" > > I'd be interested in participating also. Nikolay lives right near me, we > could do the training here at Leeward Air Ranch since we have an > aerobatic box. There are some nice hotels located here in Ocala on the > main drag nice restaurants, and we wouldn't have to pay for Nikolays > Hotel room. > > Ernie > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deon > Esterhuizen > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Deon Esterhuizen" > > > Greg, > > I did a three day course with Nikolay last November. He does as far as I > know all training at Keystone Heights. Extremely good pilot (obviously) > - we did a lot of flat spin training. Let me know when you want to do > your training, I might just join you - the more students the cheaper, > and I have a lot of friends in Jacksonville - we can overnight there. > > Deon. > N192YK > Tampa > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Arnold [mailto:catfsh4u@bellsouth.net] > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Basiliere" > To: > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" > > > > > Boy are you lucky... The "best of the best" is in Ocala, FL. Nikolay > > Timofeev former World Aerobatic and European Grand Prix Champion, on > and > > on. Not only has the man shown HE can do it he also can teach it. I > > have seen him teach levels from Sportsman to Unlimited and a couple of > > WAC competitors at the same camp. They all benefitted. > > niktim@earthlink.net is his e-mail 352-861-7437 and 352-804-2225 > > One of those phone #'s may not be good now. > > Respectfully, Rick > > PS. Yes, I have used him and will again > > Rick: > > Wow. Thanks for information. That sounds like exactly what I'm looking > for. I'll give Mr. Timofeev a call/email this week and see what his > schedule looks like. > > Best Regards, > > Greg Arnold > > > > == > == > == > == > > > > == > == > == > == > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:25 AM PST US From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: RE: Yak-List: re: aerobatic training --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" I'll talk to my neighbor he just bought an SU-31 from Nikolay, I'll get his number and fee schedule. Contact me off list. Ernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Arnold Subject: Yak-List: re: aerobatic training --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" Ernie: That's great. As I said I'm available anytime to do this training. I just need a heads-up..a week or so notice would be great. Winter-early Spring time is best for me. I guess I better get my canopy latch fixed... Greg N624PT Mobile ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" > > I'd be interested in participating also. Nikolay lives right near me, we > could do the training here at Leeward Air Ranch since we have an > aerobatic box. There are some nice hotels located here in Ocala on the > main drag nice restaurants, and we wouldn't have to pay for Nikolays > Hotel room. > > Ernie > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deon > Esterhuizen > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Deon Esterhuizen" > > > Greg, > > I did a three day course with Nikolay last November. He does as far as I > know all training at Keystone Heights. Extremely good pilot (obviously) > - we did a lot of flat spin training. Let me know when you want to do > your training, I might just join you - the more students the cheaper, > and I have a lot of friends in Jacksonville - we can overnight there. > > Deon. > N192YK > Tampa > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Arnold [mailto:catfsh4u@bellsouth.net] > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Arnold" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Basiliere" > To: > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Thump/Chuff > > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" > > > > > Boy are you lucky... The "best of the best" is in Ocala, FL. Nikolay > > Timofeev former World Aerobatic and European Grand Prix Champion, on > and > > on. Not only has the man shown HE can do it he also can teach it. I > > have seen him teach levels from Sportsman to Unlimited and a couple of > > WAC competitors at the same camp. They all benefitted. > > niktim@earthlink.net is his e-mail 352-861-7437 and 352-804-2225 > > One of those phone #'s may not be good now. > > Respectfully, Rick > > PS. Yes, I have used him and will again > > Rick: > > Wow. Thanks for information. That sounds like exactly what I'm looking > for. I'll give Mr. Timofeev a call/email this week and see what his > schedule looks like. > > Best Regards, > > Greg Arnold > > > > == > == > == > == > > > > == > == > == > == > > = == == == == ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:25 PM PST US From: "Gus Fraser" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" You have a static leak. When I got my Yak 52 I found that the rear cockpit static hose was disconnected. This caused the same symptoms you describe. Gus Fraser -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stuart Mackereth Subject: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. Stuart Yak52 -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez Subject: Yak-List: Prop Balancing --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" --> Has anyone ever had the prop on the Housai dynamically balanced?? Ernie = == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:51 PM PST US From: "Gus Fraser" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" I test flew a Yak when I was buying mine and was amazed when we lifted off at 30 kts and climbed out at 50. The recorder had been removed and not plugged. When I asked the owner about this he said that was what he always flew it at, I kid you not. Gus -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" Yep! I did. How does and ASI drop 100 feet? Do you mean your altimeter? If so, you have a static system leak. Your ASI, VSI and Altimeter should all be affected when you open/close the canopy. Look for the two rubber hoses behind the rear seat that went to the flight recorder. One will be connected to a white metal tube (static) and the other to a black metal tube (pitot). Most likely one or both are unplugged. When the flight recorder is removed, some people forget to plug these lines and your symptoms are precisely what you see as the result. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Mackereth" Subject: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" > > Hrm.. discovered that my ASI drops a hundred feet or so when opening the > canopy.. I remember a thread on this problem not so long ago .. Dennis > was it you? Any pointers on where to start. Thanks. > > Stuart > Yak52 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest > Martinez > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Yak-List: Prop Balancing > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" > --> > > Has anyone ever had the prop on the Housai dynamically balanced?? > > Ernie > > > > == > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > == > == > == > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:04 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Walt Lannon wrote: >>>You have a leak in the static system. Start checking the static lines. >> >> The Yak-52 has some additional things to check too because the rear cockpit >> can fail the front instruments as I recall > > The static system is common to both cockpits in the CJ as well. The leak can > be anywhere in the system, most likely a poor hose in either cockpit. I was thinking of the pneumatic switches that allow the IP in the rear seat to disable or cause an apparent malfunction of the various pitot and static instruments in the front cockpit. But I may be incorrect as it has now been a couple of years since I was last in the back seat of a Yak-52. As for the P/S system being plumbed to both cockpits in the CJ and the -52, I was taking that as a given. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:17 PM PST US From: MFilucci@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030124X00102&key=1 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:56 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" You're 100% correct Brian. They are typically called "disabling switches" and as you said, simulated pitot/static instrument failures in the front cockpit. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lloyd" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Static Air Problem ? > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > Walt Lannon wrote: > > >>>You have a leak in the static system. Start checking the static lines. > >> > >> The Yak-52 has some additional things to check too because the rear cockpit > >> can fail the front instruments as I recall > > > > The static system is common to both cockpits in the CJ as well. The leak can > > be anywhere in the system, most likely a poor hose in either cockpit. > > I was thinking of the pneumatic switches that allow the IP in the rear seat to disable or cause an apparent malfunction of the various pitot and static instruments in the front cockpit. But I may be incorrect as it has now been a couple of years since I was last in the back seat of a Yak-52. > > As for the P/S system being plumbed to both cockpits in the CJ and the -52, I was taking that as a given. > > -- > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 > brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 > +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax > GMT-4 > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:49 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd MFilucci@aol.com wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030124X00102&key=1 I wonder if additional aerobatic training might have led the pilot to think to roll or push to inverted flight in an attempt to get the airplane to level off. He may have had sufficient elevator travel to achieve level inverted flight. If nothing else that would have made it possible to have time to bail out. I also wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to roll inverted under that situation. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:26 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report From: "Deon Esterhuizen" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Deon Esterhuizen" After seeing the photo Gus posted a while back (Screw driver logged in bell crank) I had your exact thoughts, what about an inverted maneuver - So I simulated the event with Microsoft Flight simulator restricting up elevator movement on my joystick - hopefully (with normal acrobatic practice as well) this will get stuck in my mind if ever I have to use it. It was very informative to simulate the event at different speeds and altitudes. Deon. -----Original Message----- From: Brian Lloyd [mailto:brian@lloyd.com] Subject: Re: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd MFilucci@aol.com wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030124X00102&key=1 I wonder if additional aerobatic training might have led the pilot to think to roll or push to inverted flight in an attempt to get the airplane to level off. He may have had sufficient elevator travel to achieve level inverted flight. If nothing else that would have made it possible to have time to bail out. I also wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to roll inverted under that situation. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 = == == == == ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:31 PM PST US From: "Gus Fraser" Subject: Yak-List: Yak at Kittyhawk DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" Take a look at EAA Sport pilot this month page 79. Yak N52EK goes to Kittyhawk Gus ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:24 PM PST US From: "Gus Fraser" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" Tom Johnson, Any chance of a significant deduction in insurance if we retrofit the bellcrank shield devices designed by Marke Jefferies and Dennis Savernase ? This accident scenario counts for 5 instances that I know about and protection is better than an NTSB report any day. As you warned the group these aircraft types are being looked at closely this year and I for one am fitting a shield and a perspex inspection hatch in the tail cone ( I will post a pattern to the list for those interested in the pattern. Gus -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of MFilucci@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030124X00102&key=1 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:41 PM PST US From: "Gus Fraser" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" This almost a carbon copy of an accident in England and I asked the same question then. Tough call we were not there but that would have been the obvious choice. They were military pilots and one would suppose that they had unusual attitude training but military training is a little light on -ve G maneuvers as this is not a good ACM scenario, no sight of the enemy. Gus -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Utah Yak-52 Crash, NTSB final report --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd MFilucci@aol.com wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030124X00102&key=1 I wonder if additional aerobatic training might have led the pilot to think to roll or push to inverted flight in an attempt to get the airplane to level off. He may have had sufficient elevator travel to achieve level inverted flight. If nothing else that would have made it possible to have time to bail out. I also wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to roll inverted under that situation. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:02 PM PST US From: JohnD623@aol.com (by way of Matt Dralle ) Subject: Yak-List: Re: --> Yak-List message posted by: JohnD623@aol.com (by way of Matt Dralle ) Stay away from mig for your aircraft, save the mig for welding on trailer hitches. Just keep practicing with the gas torch.