Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:13 AM - Re: fuel feed (Oliver Neufert)
2. 02:32 AM - Re: Russian Power (Rick Basiliere)
3. 03:51 AM - Cowling drag (cpayne@joimail.com)
4. 05:38 AM - Re: Waycross, GA formation clinic (Walt Fricke)
5. 07:43 AM - Re: fuel feed (gpa)
6. 08:31 AM - Re: fuel feed (Jim Ivey)
7. 08:42 AM - Russian Power - Response from factory (Mark Schrick)
8. 08:55 AM - Re: Housai mag switches (Brian Lloyd)
9. 09:08 AM - right wing (jay reiter)
10. 09:12 AM - Re: Russian Power - Response from factory (KJKimball@aol.com)
11. 09:45 AM - Engine Power (Richard Goode)
12. 10:14 AM - Re: fuel feed (Doug Sapp)
13. 12:19 PM - Re: fuel feed (Brian Lloyd)
14. 12:42 PM - What did you do today (Gus Fraser)
15. 12:45 PM - Re: fuel feed (Doug Sapp)
16. 01:36 PM - Re: fuel feed (Brian Lloyd)
17. 03:04 PM - Re: fuel feed (A. Dennis Savarese)
18. 08:10 PM - Re: What did you do today (Walt Fricke)
19. 08:38 PM - [ Alan Cockrell ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
20. 08:44 PM - Re: What did you do today (Gus Fraser)
21. 09:08 PM - [ Scott Huff ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
22. 09:12 PM - [ Jim Goolsby ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Oliver Neufert <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
Hi Doug,
Yes one tank always IS the fuller one.
I read all the previous answers on the subject and it looks like people are
trying solutions (flying unbalanced) to get rid of the symptoms, not the
problem. I don't know the CJ very well, but if it has the same fuel
arrangement as the Yak-18T (2 tanks, 2 vents under the wing, 2 anti-return
valves and no tank selector), then the problem lies with the fact that you
have 2 tanks feeding into the same system, and the "choice" of tank is
given by the difference of pressure of the fuel in the 2 tanks (i.e. the
one with the higher pressure has priority). This pressure is determined by
the height of the fuel in that tank, and the air pressure above that fuel.
So if everything was normal (fuel lines clean, no asymmetrical prop-wash,
ball in the center) it should always be the one with the highest level.
The main variable is the pressure of air above the fuel. (of course you can
change the height of fuel by banking the aircraft i.e. flying with one foot
on the floor, but you will be using more fuel and it isn't the proper way
to fly in the cruise, is it?)
For that you need to look at the shape of bottom end of the fuel vent
lines. These stick out below the respective wing and (at least on the -18T)
are cut at an angle and do get more air pressure than ambient (ram air
effect). If one of the ends is slightly bent forward or backward (this can
happen when you do your pre-flight, or kids running around under your
airplane, although you usually notice it, since these tubes are pretty sharp).
Anyways, the bending of these tubes (very slightly!!!) will affect the air
pressure inside the tank, and for a given speed/power setting (usually
cruise) allows you to fine-tune the air pressure balance in your tanks.
So remember the order, and remember that this adjusting will work for one
configuration (i.e. cruising) because the airspeed and the asymmetrical
prop-wash will affect the differential pressure:
1. Make sure all fuel and venting lines as well as valves are clean (wasps
and flies love building nests in the venting lines)
2. trim ALL 3 AXIS of your airplane (in the proper order) for straight and
level flight
3. adjust the air vent exits by bending them between long cross-country
flights (make some notes after each flight, take photos of the "bending" of
the tubes to remember what you did etc.)
Of course this procedure will take a few flights to get adjusted properly,
but allows you to get the imbalance down to a very small amount (well below
your minimum reserves)
Of course one permanent solution would be to connect the venting lines of
the 2 tanks by another piece of tube and 2 T-connectors in order to balance
the pressures automatically. I think some folks have done this but don't
quote me on that.
Regards,
Oliver
At 11:18 AM 12/16/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
>Listers and lurkers,
>I am working on a mod to solve the problem of dissimilar fuel feed. After
>talking to several CJ drivers I was surprised to find that not all are
>having the same feed problem in the same direction. One I spoke with stated
>that in 250 hours he had never seen a situation wherein he needed to move
>fuel from his left to his tight tank, his problem was ALWAYS the reverse.
>Another seemed to feel the opposite was the case in his experience. It
>would be a big help if anyone out there who has had a problem with
>dissimilar fuel feed in their CJ would drop me a line off list and let me
>know the details. Does one tank ALWAYS seem to be the fuller one? if Yes
>which tank?
>
>Always Yakin,
>Doug Sapp
>
>
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
Sirs; Pages 25-28 have writing no figures, something repetitive similar to
"2u-ua WAPZ" also "3u-ua WAPZ" for the Yak-55 manual. Thanks , Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sam Sax
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Russian Power
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sam Sax" <cd001633@mindspring.com>
Craig,
Just checked my M-14P logbook (Aerostar, purchased New) - Test cell run
indicated 391HP at 2900 RPM and 99% power.
Does that mean I got a 'marginal' 400HP engine for the price of a 360?? :)
Sam Sax
Miami, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of cpayne@joimail.com
Subject: Yak-List: Russian Power
--> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@joimail.com
A Short Survey,
If you have a Russian engine with russian logbook, page 25
should contain the test cell results for the various power
settings. The engine I have installed currently on my CJ is
the "mild" one at 372HP. What does your logbook say?
Overhauled engines also should have been shipped with a
detailed set of additional results, separate from the
logbook that match the logbook entry.
Inquiring Minds want to know.
Craig Payne
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@joimail.com
Sparky,
Of course military trainers, with the exception of the
Marchetti, aren't racers...but, I am working on some minor
improvements in the cowling area as my testing has hit an
aerodynamic wall. I'm at the point where I could use a
better prop, more power, and lower drag. Or maybe that
Marchetti?
My informal survey on what kind of power is out there in the
M-14P was intended to get a benchmark for what exists in the
"-P" version as delivered.
Craig Payne
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Waycross, GA formation clinic |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Fricke <walterfricke@yahoo.com>
Jim.
Sorry, this is the same weekend as our annual Exectuive meeting in Colorado. I
couldn't get there until late Saturday. Darn!
cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
OK. Guys,
We're going to have our first RPA South East formation clinic AYS (Waycross,
GA.)
Date is January 15 to 18.
Right now I have 6 "instructors" who are planning or want to come.
No checkpilot yet.
I'd like to have 6 to 8 "FNG's" So first come first served - however - we
may - REPEAT- may beadle to fit a person in. I will be trying to run a fairly
tight syllabus with what instructors who are able to come. Please understand
that. If nothing being there is always a learning experience.
A ground school (about 3 hr.) will be given in the afternoon and again the
next morning for late arrivals. If we're not able to get a Checkpilot, THOSE
WHO QUALIFY will still get a recommendation for a check ride.
RPA charges $75.00 to members. (All study materials) $85.00 to non-RPA
members.
AYS has a 12 passenger van they will let us use a no cost. Other
transportation is at your expense.
Craig Payne is checking local hotels for special rates. Listed prices right
now run from $47.00 to $57.00/night. All hotels are less than :10 from the
airport.
Other FAST members are welcome to join us. If they are already wing or lead
rated, they excempt from fees.
FNGs contact me off list.
Home (386-467-3313).
After Dec 15th to Jan. 2 (302-764-4509).
Cell. (386-503-9820)
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
---------------------------------
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "gpa" <catfsh4u@bellsouth.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Neufert" <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Oliver Neufert <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Yes one tank always IS the fuller one.
Oliver/Doug:
FWIW, I believe I had this same fuel feeding problem that you describe in my
GT500, which is a type of enclosed two seat ultralight trainer with two poly
fuel tanks mounted in the wings. The fuel selector is either off or on both.
On this particular aircraft the tanks are vented through vented caps. Like
you said there was always one tank that fed quicker than the other. I
always seem to get this differential feed going after about a half hour of
flying no matter how I flew the airplane. In the end I installed vent tubes
in the tanks so that ram air would pressurize the air above the fuel during
flight. I also connected a line between tanks above the max fuel level (at
the fill port) to equalize air pressure between tanks. Problem solved.
This is very simple to do on a open frame aircraft such as an ultralight but
I imagine the principles are still the same for all aircraft.
Regards,
Greg Arnold
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Ivey" <jim@jimivey.com>
Greg:
As a matter of fact the FAA will not allow an aircraft to be certified with
a "Both" selection on the fuel valve unless the upper portion of each tank
is interconnected (i.e. vents are interconnected). The FAA does this for
good reason. Cessnas have the interconnects. Luscombes do not. There is a
placard in a Luscombe prohibiting selecting both tanks at the same time
because of the missing interconnect. That placard was required for
certification of the wing-tank Luscombes.
Jim Ivey
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gpa
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:43 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "gpa" <catfsh4u@bellsouth.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Oliver Neufert" <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Oliver Neufert
> > --> <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
> >
> > Hi Doug,
> >
> > Yes one tank always IS the fuller one.
>
> Oliver/Doug:
>
> FWIW, I believe I had this same fuel feeding problem that you
> describe in my GT500, which is a type of enclosed two seat
> ultralight trainer with two poly fuel tanks mounted in the
> wings. The fuel selector is either off or on both. On this
> particular aircraft the tanks are vented through vented caps.
> Like you said there was always one tank that fed quicker
> than the other. I always seem to get this differential feed
> going after about a half hour of flying no matter how I flew
> the airplane. In the end I installed vent tubes in the tanks
> so that ram air would pressurize the air above the fuel
> during flight. I also connected a line between tanks above
> the max fuel level (at the fill port) to equalize air
> pressure between tanks. Problem solved. This is very simple
> to do on a open frame aircraft such as an ultralight but I
> imagine the principles are still the same for all aircraft.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg Arnold
>
>
> ===========
> ============
> Matronics Forums.
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Russian Power - Response from factory |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Schrick" <schrick@pacbell.net>
Sam,
Since I work closely with Aeromotors that built your engine 400HP monster
there are a few things you must remember when you read the Russian power
numbers taken from the dyno test cell. This was the response from Aeromotors
to answer your question about your engine rating:
You may tell Mr. Sax that the test cell readings are just that...readings.
Like any other engine the rated power output is determined on a "Standard" day
59 deg at 14.7 PSI "sea level")
Obviously the test cell is not controlled to these parameters so it is not
uncommon to get variations from day to day.
Pilot's, above most, should be well aware the power fluctuations due to
density altitude.
Hope this helps everyone that owns these great engines.....400 HP should be
400 HP if the weather is on your side.
Hope this helps everyone.
Mark "SHREK" Schrick
YAK DRIVER, Inc
Aerostar Dealer of (New) Yak 52TW
Fully Restored USED Yaks "We meet anyone's budget!!!
966 Wallace Drive
San Jose, Ca 95120-1848
Hm/Fax 408-323-5150
Cell 408-391-6664
Email schrick@pacbell.net
Website www.YAKDRIVER.com
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sam Sax" <cd001633@mindspring.com>
Craig,
Just checked my M-14P logbook (Aerostar, purchased New) - Test cell run
indicated 391HP at 2900 RPM and 99% power.
Does that mean I got a 'marginal' 400HP engine for the price of a 360?? :)
Sam Sax
Miami, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of cpayne@joimail.com
Subject: Yak-List: Russian Power
--> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@joimail.com
A Short Survey,
If you have a Russian engine with russian logbook, page 25
should contain the test cell results for the various power
settings. The engine I have installed currently on my CJ is
the "mild" one at 372HP. What does your logbook say?
Overhauled engines also should have been shipped with a
detailed set of additional results, separate from the
logbook that match the logbook entry.
Inquiring Minds want to know.
Craig Payne
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Housai mag switches |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
David Stroud wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "David Stroud" <davestroud@rogers.com>
>
> Could someone please say if a Housai / CJ-6 mag switch is pretty much the same
item as
> that for a Lyc or Continental or is there something unique about it ? Thanks.
The mags work the same as in a US aircraft. Ground the p-lead to disable the mag.
You can even use toggle switches to turn the mags on and off. That is the
least expensive way to go.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Anybody got a used right wing for a CJ contact me or Ron Buonomo at cj6@att.net
off list
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Russian Power - Response from factory |
--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
Mark,
Good point from the factory. The trend we have noticed on the Hp numbers in
the log books is typically near rated hp for engines tested in warm months
while those tested in winter typically have hp outputs that are higher. If all
the numbers are corrected back to standard conditions, the numbers should be
within a percent or two of each other. On a side note, Monty Barrett of high
performance flat engine fame is nearing a test cell run with his M14P. This
will be true calibrated and corrected numbers for both stock carb and airflow
performance fuel injection.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
USA Yak Club
Engine Power
I read with interest, claims of power outputs approaching 400-hp from "standard"
M14Ps from Russia. Having dealt there for the last 15-years, nothing will surprise
me, but I would point out the following:
a.. There were only four engine overhaul facilities in all the former Soviet
Union. One was in Kazakhstan, one in the Ukraine, and only two left in Russia
(Shakty and Voronezh - ie the manufacturer).
b.. We have sold over two hundred M14 family engines, and the highest output
we have seen is 376-hp.
c.. Remember that this is a properly obtained dynamometer figure, but also with
an accurate correction figure to account for temperature and atmospheric pressure
etc., to give a standardised final figure.
d.. I am very close to various members of the Soviet/Russian aerobatic teams,
and I can say that when money was flowing freely, Sukhoi had a bank of twenty/twenty
five engines, which were selected for their higher output and which the
factory changed often, and indeed as soon as there was the least problem to
return immediately to Voronezh.
e.. I spoke recently to one of the principal engineers at the time, and he said
that the highest figure they ever had was 377-hp, and that virtually no engines
were above 372-hp.
f.. I don't doubt at all that significantly higher outputs can be obtained with
fuel-injection; higher compression ratio etc etc., but I am sure that we would
all agree that such figures are only credible when properly dynamometer tested!
Best regards
Richard Goode
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Newport House
Almeley
Herefordshire
HR3 6LL
United Kingdom
Tel: 44 (0) 1544 322200
Mob: 44 (0) 7768 610389
Fax: 44 (0) 1544 322208
www.russianaeros.com
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by the http://www.anti84787.com
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Greg,
I have considered pressurizing the tanks, but have not liked the idea,
cosmetically it just adds more stuff poking out of the aircraft. In the
70's we built many high performance Cubs for the Alaska market, the most
popular one was the Piper PA12 Super Cruiser with the 150 hp conversion.
That mod required that the tanks be pressurized to guarantee full flow at
max RPM. We simply added a forward facing "vent" line and it solved the
problem instantly. The same could be done with the CJ caps and I do agree
that it would most likely solve the dissimilar fuel feed problem also. But
you would have to be willing to put up with the tube jutting out of each
cap, pointing forward into the positive air. Then you would have to
overcome the problem of the fuel tank cover, it would have to have a hole in
it also. all doable but a bit clumsy in my opinion.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of gpa
Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
--> Yak-List message posted by: "gpa" <catfsh4u@bellsouth.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Neufert" <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Oliver Neufert <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Yes one tank always IS the fuller one.
Oliver/Doug:
FWIW, I believe I had this same fuel feeding problem that you describe in my
GT500, which is a type of enclosed two seat ultralight trainer with two poly
fuel tanks mounted in the wings. The fuel selector is either off or on both.
On this particular aircraft the tanks are vented through vented caps. Like
you said there was always one tank that fed quicker than the other. I
always seem to get this differential feed going after about a half hour of
flying no matter how I flew the airplane. In the end I installed vent tubes
in the tanks so that ram air would pressurize the air above the fuel during
flight. I also connected a line between tanks above the max fuel level (at
the fill port) to equalize air pressure between tanks. Problem solved.
This is very simple to do on a open frame aircraft such as an ultralight but
I imagine the principles are still the same for all aircraft.
Regards,
Greg Arnold
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Doug Sapp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Greg,
> I have considered pressurizing the tanks, but have not liked the idea,
> cosmetically it just adds more stuff poking out of the aircraft. In the
> 70's we built many high performance Cubs for the Alaska market, the most
> popular one was the Piper PA12 Super Cruiser with the 150 hp conversion.
> That mod required that the tanks be pressurized to guarantee full flow at
> max RPM. We simply added a forward facing "vent" line and it solved the
> problem instantly. The same could be done with the CJ caps and I do agree
> that it would most likely solve the dissimilar fuel feed problem also. But
> you would have to be willing to put up with the tube jutting out of each
> cap, pointing forward into the positive air. Then you would have to
> overcome the problem of the fuel tank cover, it would have to have a hole in
> it also. all doable but a bit clumsy in my opinion.
The tanks in the CJ6A are already "pressurized" by the vent system. There is a
single common vent for both tanks on the belly of the aircraft under the wing.
This is a high-pressure point on the airframe and serves the same purpose as
caps on the top of the wing with a forward-facing vent.
Remember, a cap on the top of the wing is already at a low pressure point on the
airframe. A forward facing "pitot tube" vent is therefore needed to increase
the pressure above ambient. With the vent on the bottom of the wing/fuselage
you are referencing your vent to a higher-than-ambient pressure thus pressurizing
your tanks.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 14
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| Subject: | What did you do today |
DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Folks weather here was crud but managed a "fast taxi test" today. Did feel
the wheels get a little light :)))
Happy 17th
Gus
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Brian,
I fully understand the theory behind the system, but in the real world we
all know that the single vent in the wing root in fact DOES NOT pressurize
both tanks evenly, If it did the tanks would feed evenly (in theory). My
somewhat snow blind (6 inches of new white stuff last night) mind tells me
that if it worked the Chinese would not be filing grooves in the flapper
valve seats in the sump tanks in an effort to make the flow even. I do
believe I have a solution, but I was fishing for input as to rather the
majority of CJ drivers saw the right tank draining first or visa versa. So
far its a strange mix, some responding that they in fact do not have a
problem at all, others that their right tanks drains first, a few the left
tank, still others report that it varies from flight to flight.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Doug Sapp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Greg,
> I have considered pressurizing the tanks, but have not liked the idea,
> cosmetically it just adds more stuff poking out of the aircraft. In the
> 70's we built many high performance Cubs for the Alaska market, the most
> popular one was the Piper PA12 Super Cruiser with the 150 hp conversion.
> That mod required that the tanks be pressurized to guarantee full flow at
> max RPM. We simply added a forward facing "vent" line and it solved the
> problem instantly. The same could be done with the CJ caps and I do agree
> that it would most likely solve the dissimilar fuel feed problem also.
But
> you would have to be willing to put up with the tube jutting out of each
> cap, pointing forward into the positive air. Then you would have to
> overcome the problem of the fuel tank cover, it would have to have a hole
in
> it also. all doable but a bit clumsy in my opinion.
The tanks in the CJ6A are already "pressurized" by the vent system. There
is a single common vent for both tanks on the belly of the aircraft under
the wing. This is a high-pressure point on the airframe and serves the same
purpose as caps on the top of the wing with a forward-facing vent.
Remember, a cap on the top of the wing is already at a low pressure point on
the airframe. A forward facing "pitot tube" vent is therefore needed to
increase the pressure above ambient. With the vent on the bottom of the
wing/fuselage you are referencing your vent to a higher-than-ambient
pressure thus pressurizing your tanks.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Doug Sapp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Brian, I fully understand the theory behind the system, but in the
> real world we all know that the single vent in the wing root in fact
> DOES NOT pressurize both tanks evenly, If it did the tanks would feed
> evenly (in theory).
Actually, it does pressurize them evenly. The pressure of a gas (air) in a container
(a vent tube) is the same everywhere in that container. The exception
to that is if you have liquid fuel in the vent. In that case all bets are off
and you are going to problems with fuel siphoning between tanks through the vent
line. But once the fuel level in the tanks drop a bit to break the siphon,
the pressure will be equal in the air in the tanks.
> My somewhat snow blind (6 inches of new white stuff last night) mind
> tells me that if it worked the Chinese would not be filing grooves in
> the flapper valve seats in the sump tanks in an effort to make the
> flow even.
That is a different problem. Fuel flow from the tanks can vary for many different
reasons. Vent pressure is not the only controlling factor.
The point I am making is that the Chinese vent system is a pressure vent system
that pressurizes both tanks above ambient pressure and both tanks are pressurized
to exactly the same pressure. There is neither need nor advantage to changing
the vent system since it already does what you said you want it to do: pressurize
both tanks equally to a pressure slightly above ambient pressure.
> I do believe I have a solution, but I was fishing for input as to
> rather the majority of CJ drivers saw the right tank draining first
> or visa versa. So far its a strange mix, some responding that they
> in fact do not have a problem at all, others that their right tanks
> drains first, a few the left tank, still others report that it varies
> from flight to flight.
Even fuel feed is difficult to ensure in a system where you are feeding two tanks
into a common sump. I just wanted to point out that there is no need to try
to do anything with the vent system to ensure even fuel feed because the vent
system already does what you want it to do so I would suggest you look elsewhere
for the cause of uneven fuel feed.
Just between you, me, and the lamppost, I believe that even fuel feed comes from
flying the airplane with the wings level in level flight and in making sure
the flapper valves are properly cared for. I don't think there are any real hidden
"gotchas" in the design of the CJ6A fuel system that we need to try to fix.
>
> Always Yakin, Doug Sapp
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> Doug Sapp wrote:
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>>
>> Greg, I have considered pressurizing the tanks, but have not liked
>> the idea, cosmetically it just adds more stuff poking out of the
>> aircraft. In the 70's we built many high performance Cubs for the
>> Alaska market, the most popular one was the Piper PA12 Super
>> Cruiser with the 150 hp conversion. That mod required that the
>> tanks be pressurized to guarantee full flow at max RPM. We simply
>> added a forward facing "vent" line and it solved the problem
>> instantly. The same could be done with the CJ caps and I do agree
>> that it would most likely solve the dissimilar fuel feed problem
>> also.
>
> But
>
>> you would have to be willing to put up with the tube jutting out of
>> each cap, pointing forward into the positive air. Then you would
>> have to overcome the problem of the fuel tank cover, it would have
>> to have a hole
>
> in
>
>> it also. all doable but a bit clumsy in my opinion.
>
>
> The tanks in the CJ6A are already "pressurized" by the vent system.
> There is a single common vent for both tanks on the belly of the
> aircraft under the wing. This is a high-pressure point on the
> airframe and serves the same purpose as caps on the top of the wing
> with a forward-facing vent.
>
> Remember, a cap on the top of the wing is already at a low pressure
> point on the airframe. A forward facing "pitot tube" vent is
> therefore needed to increase the pressure above ambient. With the
> vent on the bottom of the wing/fuselage you are referencing your vent
> to a higher-than-ambient pressure thus pressurizing your tanks.
>
> --
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite
> 201 brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax GMT-4
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
>
>
>
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
GMT-4
Message 17
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Sounds like a job for the 2" Velcro man!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: fuel feed
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Brian,
> I fully understand the theory behind the system, but in the real world we
> all know that the single vent in the wing root in fact DOES NOT pressurize
> both tanks evenly, If it did the tanks would feed evenly (in theory). My
> somewhat snow blind (6 inches of new white stuff last night) mind tells me
> that if it worked the Chinese would not be filing grooves in the flapper
> valve seats in the sump tanks in an effort to make the flow even. I do
> believe I have a solution, but I was fishing for input as to rather the
> majority of CJ drivers saw the right tank draining first or visa versa.
So
> far its a strange mix, some responding that they in fact do not have a
> problem at all, others that their right tanks drains first, a few the left
> tank, still others report that it varies from flight to flight.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> Doug Sapp wrote:
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >
> > Greg,
> > I have considered pressurizing the tanks, but have not liked the idea,
> > cosmetically it just adds more stuff poking out of the aircraft. In the
> > 70's we built many high performance Cubs for the Alaska market, the most
> > popular one was the Piper PA12 Super Cruiser with the 150 hp conversion.
> > That mod required that the tanks be pressurized to guarantee full flow
at
> > max RPM. We simply added a forward facing "vent" line and it solved the
> > problem instantly. The same could be done with the CJ caps and I do
agree
> > that it would most likely solve the dissimilar fuel feed problem also.
> But
> > you would have to be willing to put up with the tube jutting out of each
> > cap, pointing forward into the positive air. Then you would have to
> > overcome the problem of the fuel tank cover, it would have to have a
hole
> in
> > it also. all doable but a bit clumsy in my opinion.
>
> The tanks in the CJ6A are already "pressurized" by the vent system. There
> is a single common vent for both tanks on the belly of the aircraft under
> the wing. This is a high-pressure point on the airframe and serves the
same
> purpose as caps on the top of the wing with a forward-facing vent.
>
> Remember, a cap on the top of the wing is already at a low pressure point
on
> the airframe. A forward facing "pitot tube" vent is therefore needed to
> increase the pressure above ambient. With the vent on the bottom of the
> wing/fuselage you are referencing your vent to a higher-than-ambient
> pressure thus pressurizing your tanks.
>
> --
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
> brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> GMT-4
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do today |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Fricke <walterfricke@yahoo.com>
I spoke to a bunch of Junior High kids today at the American Wings Museum in Minneapolis.
About the Freedom of flight and the price of freedom. Not sure they
understood what I was saying but their teacher was a draft dodging college
student during the Viet Nam War and he came up after and thanked me profusely
for the message (and for serving). It was a rewarding experiece.
Then we tried to get my buddy's Widgeon started to see if we could beat the Wright
Flyer's duration record today. Frosted his plugs. So we had to get out my
Staggerwing (which was resting nicely for the winter). Cranked right up and
away we went. Nearly joined a flight of two C-130's passiing by the field in
trail on downwind at 900AGL. They were on the tower freq and I was neatly on
lead's right wing and about to ask him to "give me some" when they pitched out
to the left. A beautiful sight, these beasts. They were enjoying the close-up
view of the Aeroflot Staggerwing as well.
Good day to play "hooky"!
Happy Holidays all!
Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser"
Folks weather here was crud but managed a "fast taxi test" today. Did feel
the wheels get a little light :)))
Happy 17th
Gus
---------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | [ Alan Cockrell ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Alan Cockrell <yakdriver@comcast.net>
Subject: Rat Rendezvous (Nov 30, 2003)
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/yakdriver@comcast.net.12.17.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
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following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
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Message 20
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| Subject: | What did you do today |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Walt,
I did see the article on the staggerwing in the mag. Have you ever
considered a career up north. I hear there is a good living to be made
selling snow to Eskimos.....
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Walt Fricke
Subject: Re: Yak-List: What did you do today
--> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Fricke <walterfricke@yahoo.com>
I spoke to a bunch of Junior High kids today at the American Wings Museum in
Minneapolis. About the Freedom of flight and the price of freedom. Not
sure they understood what I was saying but their teacher was a draft dodging
college student during the Viet Nam War and he came up after and thanked me
profusely for the message (and for serving). It was a rewarding experiece.
Then we tried to get my buddy's Widgeon started to see if we could beat the
Wright Flyer's duration record today. Frosted his plugs. So we had to get
out my Staggerwing (which was resting nicely for the winter). Cranked right
up and away we went. Nearly joined a flight of two C-130's passiing by the
field in trail on downwind at 900AGL. They were on the tower freq and I was
neatly on lead's right wing and about to ask him to "give me some" when they
pitched out to the left. A beautiful sight, these beasts. They were
enjoying the close-up view of the Aeroflot Staggerwing as well.
Good day to play "hooky"!
Happy Holidays all!
Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser"
Folks weather here was crud but managed a "fast taxi test" today. Did feel
the wheels get a little light :)))
Happy 17th
Gus
---------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | [ Scott Huff ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Scott Huff <scott.huff@aivia.aero>
Subject: Yak-52M
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/scott.huff@aivia.aero.12.17.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
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Message 22
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| Subject: | [ Jim Goolsby ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Jim Goolsby <cjpilot710@aol.com>
Subject: Merry Christmas fellow CJ-6 flyers.
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/cjpilot710@aol.com.12.17.2003/index.html
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