Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:24 AM - Re: Re: Gear fails to retract (Gus Fraser)
2. 04:27 AM - Re: 52TW my 50c (Gus Fraser)
3. 06:24 AM - CJ-List (Stuart Mackereth)
4. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Gear fails to retract (Walt Lannon)
5. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: Gear fails to retract (Jim Selby)
6. 11:40 AM - Becker Radios and vibration? (Drew Blahnick)
7. 12:30 PM - Re: CJ-List (Gus Fraser)
8. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: Gear fails to retract (Walt Lannon)
9. 01:14 PM - Re: Becker Radios and vibration? (Jim Selby)
10. 01:50 PM - Re: Becker Radios and vibration? (Mark Schrick)
11. 04:54 PM - Re: Becker Radios and vibration? (Rick Basiliere)
12. 07:44 PM - Microair Radios (Dennis Von Ruden)
13. 08:06 PM - Valve questions (JL)
14. 09:14 PM - Re: Valve questions (Walt Lannon)
15. 09:57 PM - Re: Microair Radios (Jim Selby)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Gear fails to retract |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Ah, now I get it, the CJ does not have the relief valve between the normal
and emergency side. This is why you are getting this problem. What is
happening is that air is leaking from the emergency side to the normal. You
obviously you will want to fix the valve that's broken but you may want to
examine upgrading the CJ airsystem by adding the Yak 52 relief valve into
the circuit.
Off to practice this years sequence now see ya latter.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 12/20/2003 1:29:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
egon@hinet.net.au writes:
>
> Hi Jim,
> Thanks for the reply. I thought that might be the problem as well, but if
> one of the shuttle valves was sticking, would'nt that only affect its own
> particular gear leg? Is it likely that all three are sticking???
>
> Cheers Egon.
>
>
No. Any one of the shuttle valves will effect the other gear. The hardest
one to get to is the on the firewall just above the front rudder bar. It
isn't hard to do them all, about a 2 hour job at leisurely pace.
I lub them with a airtool. Make sure the brass valve inside has no burrs
and
the spring is free and lub too.
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
There is an implication here that Gesoco did not do the right thing. I would
like to just say that I have met very few people in this industry that do
business in a manner as professional as Gesoco. In my experience they go out
of their way to resolve issues when they occur. I am sorry to hear about
your 52TW experience but I am sure that George and Cliff did whatever they
could to resolve the issue.
Gus Fraser
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Subject: Yak-List: 52TW
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Steve,
I'm glad you finally got the problems with your TW fixed. I guess if you
don't mind buying a new airplane and then letting the factory/dealer keep it
to use it as a test bed for a couple of years to fix all of the problems the
factory should have taken care of before releasing the airplane, a TW is the
way to go. Maybe all new airplanes should have a couple hundred hours on
them when you take delivery two years after the date you were promised.
Maybe the FAA isn't so bad, after all. I recall some very threatening
comments by you because of all the problems you were having. I am no longer
representing Aerostar because of all the problems I had with them, their
airplanes, and their worthless warranty. Did they give you a new engine or
did Gesoco have to buy it? They shipped a "new" TW to me with a bent master
rod and then blamed me for it and wouldn't cover it under warranty. It also
had twenty-year-old cylinders on it, a sheared vacuum pump drive, an air
compressor that failed in less than 20 hours, a prop governor that didn't
work properly, worthless fuel gages, a ridiculous fuel system with tanks
with built-in flow blockage and improper venting that relied on leakage
through the pumps and then siphoned between tanks so you never knew if you
could fly aerobatics in cg, a radio that didn't work, hopelessly distorted
canopy frame that wouldn't even close, an agricultural tailwheel attachment
that was ready to fall off, etc etc etc. Unfortunately, your experience and
mine was apparently typical. Maybe they've improved. Hope so.
I'm amazed Gesoco has stuck with them--of course he has a significant
investment in the design. Good luck, Mark(s) and Bill.
As I recall your problems were even worse.
If your cowling is easy to remove/install and works well it must be
significantly different than what the airplane was originally shipped
with--the stronger linkage you mention etc. As you know, the -52/W and
original TW cowling/flap arrangement is so leaky around the rear and bottom
that the seal was necessary to get air to even go through the exit flaps.
As I recall, your cowling was particularly ineffective and had to be
significantly modified in the area of the exit flaps to get it to work at
all. Removing or replacing the lower cowling is greatly hampered now that
everything is all sealed up because you can't get your hands in to access
the attachment pins. Maybe yours is different now--I hope so.
I was a big booster of the TW, love -52's (except for their speed) and was
the western US representative for Aerostar for a couple of years because I
believed they had a potentially great product at a great price. I still
believe the potential is there--maybe they've climbed the hump--but I had
nothing but trouble from beginning to end with Aerostar and their products.
Not an experience I'd care to repeat or pass on to others. And I don't
think it's right to subject your customers to endless waiting, then get an
unproven product with no warranty. I'd much rather have an old Communist
model, unmodified -52.
-52's may be great fun for aerobatics, powerful etc., but they are
ridiculously slow for the power. Enclosed gear and 400hp should have made
the airplane at least as fast as a Cherokee with half the power. Hell, I've
got a Cessna 140 that's almost as fast on 1/4 the power. And I still
wouldn't flat spin one, especially if I couldn't tell where the cg was
because of uncommanded fuel transfer.
Caveat emptor.
Having said all that, with a proper cowling CJ's and -52's would probably be
significantly faster. Remember what Lopresti was able to accomplish with
Grummans and Mooneys with relatively minor mods. For starters, close the
cowling bottom and install a Rare Bear spinner and outlet flaps that seal to
fuselage fairings anyone?
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" <stuart@bramptonyork.com>
At the risk of getting flamed, is there any reason why there is not both
a CJ-List and a Yak-List ?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Gear fails to retract |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Gus;
Actually the leak is through one of the emerg. diverter valves from the
normal to the emerg. side not emerg. to normal.
From there the air goes directly to the down side of the gear actuators and
blocks gear retraction. Assuming the emerg. valves are not leaking there is
no pressure in the emerg system so the other less likely option is a leaking
emerg. control valve.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> Ah, now I get it, the CJ does not have the relief valve between the normal
> and emergency side. This is why you are getting this problem. What is
> happening is that air is leaking from the emergency side to the normal.
You
> obviously you will want to fix the valve that's broken but you may want to
> examine upgrading the CJ airsystem by adding the Yak 52 relief valve into
> the circuit.
>
>
> Off to practice this years sequence now see ya latter.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 12/20/2003 1:29:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> egon@hinet.net.au writes:
>
>
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> > Thanks for the reply. I thought that might be the problem as well, but
if
> > one of the shuttle valves was sticking, would'nt that only affect its
own
> > particular gear leg? Is it likely that all three are sticking???
> >
> > Cheers Egon.
> >
> >
>
> No. Any one of the shuttle valves will effect the other gear. The
hardest
> one to get to is the on the firewall just above the front rudder bar.
It
> isn't hard to do them all, about a 2 hour job at leisurely pace.
>
> I lub them with a airtool. Make sure the brass valve inside has no burrs
> and
> the spring is free and lub too.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Gear fails to retract |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Selby" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
You could have a sticking valve, but I have found you have to be sure that
you bleed off all the air completely from both systems to zero, I break the
lines loose at the firewall right side upper line that goes to the Check
valve, this will do the emergency side and one will do the main side, then
refill the system and try it again, if it still does not work then you may
have a leaking valve someplace.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gus Fraser
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Ah, now I get it, the CJ does not have the relief valve between the normal
and emergency side. This is why you are getting this problem. What is
happening is that air is leaking from the emergency side to the normal. You
obviously you will want to fix the valve that's broken but you may want to
examine upgrading the CJ airsystem by adding the Yak 52 relief valve into
the circuit.
Off to practice this years sequence now see ya latter.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 12/20/2003 1:29:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
egon@hinet.net.au writes:
>
> Hi Jim,
> Thanks for the reply. I thought that might be the problem as well, but if
> one of the shuttle valves was sticking, would'nt that only affect its own
> particular gear leg? Is it likely that all three are sticking???
>
> Cheers Egon.
>
>
No. Any one of the shuttle valves will effect the other gear. The hardest
one to get to is the on the firewall just above the front rudder bar. It
isn't hard to do them all, about a 2 hour job at leisurely pace.
I lub them with a airtool. Make sure the brass valve inside has no burrs
and
the spring is free and lub too.
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
Message 6
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| Subject: | Becker Radios and vibration? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Folks,
Anyone using the becker line of 2 1/4 inch comm radio (AR 4201) and transponder?
I'm being told they do not hold up well in high vibration aircraft. This could
be rumor, if anyone is using them please let me know,
Drew
Drew Blahnick
RedStar Pilots Assoc.
310.872.0754
"Communism: Lousy Politics-Excellent Airplanes"
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
I think that there are enough similarities between the types that it makes
sense to have one list especially as a lot of CJs get the M14P upgrade. Also
it causes me much amusement when every six months we all start the Yak vs CJ
debate. The last one ended up with planned ACM somewhere in California.
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stuart
Mackereth
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-List
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Stuart Mackereth" <stuart@bramptonyork.com>
At the risk of getting flamed, is there any reason why there is not both
a CJ-List and a Yak-List ?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Gear fails to retract |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Right on Jim, the emergency down system by design retains pressure in the
down circuit and must be relieved to resume normal operation. After an
emergency down operation one should never attempt to retract the gear in
flight.
The down circuit must be purged on the ground. I used to do it (after emerg.
down test at annual) by breaking connection in the wheel well. You can
accomplish the same thing by closing the main valve and operating flaps and
brakes until all air is gone. Brakes are the most effective. Takes longer
but works just as well.
In my last post replying to Gus in referring to a system leak I failed to
mention the most likely source. A faulty diverter valve is the second
consideration, the first is the check valve on the firewall that allows air
from the emergency circuit to enter the normal system for flap and brake
operation. The third, and last, is one of the emergency control valves. In
the first two the air comes from the normal system and there will be no loss
of emergency pressure on the guage.
Cheers,
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Selby" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Selby" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
>
> You could have a sticking valve, but I have found you have to be sure that
> you bleed off all the air completely from both systems to zero, I break
the
> lines loose at the firewall right side upper line that goes to the Check
> valve, this will do the emergency side and one will do the main side, then
> refill the system and try it again, if it still does not work then you may
> have a leaking valve someplace.
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gus Fraser
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> Ah, now I get it, the CJ does not have the relief valve between the normal
> and emergency side. This is why you are getting this problem. What is
> happening is that air is leaking from the emergency side to the normal.
You
> obviously you will want to fix the valve that's broken but you may want to
> examine upgrading the CJ airsystem by adding the Yak 52 relief valve into
> the circuit.
>
>
> Off to practice this years sequence now see ya latter.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Gear fails to retract
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 12/20/2003 1:29:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> egon@hinet.net.au writes:
>
>
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> > Thanks for the reply. I thought that might be the problem as well, but
if
> > one of the shuttle valves was sticking, would'nt that only affect its
own
> > particular gear leg? Is it likely that all three are sticking???
> >
> > Cheers Egon.
> >
> >
>
> No. Any one of the shuttle valves will effect the other gear. The
hardest
> one to get to is the on the firewall just above the front rudder bar.
It
> isn't hard to do them all, about a 2 hour job at leisurely pace.
>
> I lub them with a airtool. Make sure the brass valve inside has no burrs
> and
> the spring is free and lub too.
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
> ---
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Becker Radios and vibration? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Selby" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
Drew
I've had a Becker in my CJ for about a year without any problems, but had
problems with the Micro Air Radio several times.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: Becker Radios and vibration?
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Folks,
Anyone using the becker line of 2 1/4 inch comm radio (AR 4201) and
transponder? I'm being told they do not hold up well in high vibration
aircraft. This could be rumor, if anyone is using them please let me know,
Drew
Drew Blahnick
RedStar Pilots Assoc.
310.872.0754
"Communism: Lousy Politics-Excellent Airplanes"
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
Message 10
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| Subject: | Becker Radios and vibration? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Schrick" <schrick@pacbell.net>
Drew,
This is the same COMBO I am placing in my Yak 50 and Yak 52. The Becker line
of radio's hold up better. Freezer has a Becker transponder in his Yak 50
also.
I am a dealer for Becker but other people carry the radio's and transponders.
(Aircraft Spruce, Eastern Avionics, and Chief).
Good luck,
********************************************************************
Mark Schrick
966 Wallace Drive
San Jose, Ca 95120-1848
Hm/Fax 408-323-5150
Cell 408-391-6664
Email schrick@pacbell.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: Becker Radios and vibration?
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Folks,
Anyone using the becker line of 2 1/4 inch comm radio (AR 4201) and
transponder? I'm being told they do not hold up well in high vibration
aircraft. This could be rumor, if anyone is using them please let me know,
Drew
Drew Blahnick
RedStar Pilots Assoc.
310.872.0754
"Communism: Lousy Politics-Excellent Airplanes"
Message 11
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| Subject: | Becker Radios and vibration? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
Drew,
My Yak-52 bud, Joe Wilkins installed the Becker xpdr(and I helped) and a
blind encoder. Working famously for now, ATC loves him. I'll let the List
know when and if it goes Tango Uniform.
Rick B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: Becker Radios and vibration?
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <aapilot@adelphia.net>
Folks,
Anyone using the becker line of 2 1/4 inch comm radio (AR 4201) and
transponder? I'm being told they do not hold up well in high vibration
aircraft. This could be rumor, if anyone is using them please let me know,
Drew
Drew Blahnick
RedStar Pilots Assoc.
310.872.0754
"Communism: Lousy Politics-Excellent Airplanes"
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dennis Von Ruden" <dvonruden@generalequip.com>
There has been some recent discussion regarding the use of Becker radios
in the high vibration environments. Has anyone had a bad experience with
the Microair transceiver and transponder? Thanks.
Dennis Von Ruden
dvonruden@generalequip.com
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: JL <jland@popeandland.com>
Here's another interesting valve question for the expert CJ plumbers out
there.
My normal system is going over pressure as is the emergency system.
Took out and cleaned most of the normal system lines to/from snot valve and
the relief valve. Seemed to help initially on the normal system, but over
time the pressure continued to creep up over red line. The emergency system
went well over red line and kept going (more quickly than the normal
system.)
In the air I bled down the normal system with flaps to keep the pressures in
line. However, after closing the main valve and turning on the emergency
system (to also bleed down the over pressure with the flaps) the nose gear
immediately blew down without selecting gear down. I then selected gear
down, the mains went down and locked, and I left the gear down till landing
since it was actuated by the emergency system.
Are these related or unlucky independent problems ? Suggested solutions
greatly appreciated.
Jay Land
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Valve questions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Second part first.
The emergency system bypasses the landing gear control valves and feeds
pressure directly to the down side of the gear actuators. You should have
had all three down in half a heartbeat. The reason that didn't happen was
that you left the gear selector in the up position thereby maintaining air
pressure in the up side of the actuators to oppose the emergency pressure.
The fact that the nose gear went down could be due to leak in the up side,
you may want to check that out.
Emerg Gear Extension:
1. Close main air valve
2. Gear lever neutral
3. Open Emerg. air
4. Gear lever down
5. Engage safety latch
Had you set the air pressure relief valve on the ground with an adequate air
source? To what pressure?
Set to not over 45 atm's and check operation over a few flights. The
emergency side will generally creep up a little over time but should not
exceed the max. (50).
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "JL" <jland@popeandland.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Valve questions
> --> Yak-List message posted by: JL <jland@popeandland.com>
>
> Here's another interesting valve question for the expert CJ plumbers out
> there.
>
> My normal system is going over pressure as is the emergency system.
> Took out and cleaned most of the normal system lines to/from snot valve
and
> the relief valve. Seemed to help initially on the normal system, but over
> time the pressure continued to creep up over red line. The emergency
system
> went well over red line and kept going (more quickly than the normal
> system.)
>
> In the air I bled down the normal system with flaps to keep the pressures
in
> line. However, after closing the main valve and turning on the emergency
> system (to also bleed down the over pressure with the flaps) the nose gear
> immediately blew down without selecting gear down. I then selected gear
> down, the mains went down and locked, and I left the gear down till
landing
> since it was actuated by the emergency system.
>
> Are these related or unlucky independent problems ? Suggested solutions
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Jay Land
>
>
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Selby" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
Dennis
I have a MicroAir Radio and Transponder, I have had the Radio repaired 3
times, but have had good luck with the Transponder, Have had no problems
with the Becker Radio.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Von
Ruden
Subject: Yak-List: Microair Radios
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dennis Von Ruden"
<dvonruden@generalequip.com>
There has been some recent discussion regarding the use of Becker radios
in the high vibration environments. Has anyone had a bad experience with
the Microair transceiver and transponder? Thanks.
Dennis Von Ruden
dvonruden@generalequip.com
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