Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:21 AM - Re: G suits (Brian Lloyd)
2. 07:28 AM - Re: CJ-6 Spins (Brian Lloyd)
3. 07:35 AM - Re: Procedures ingrained into your head.... (Brian Lloyd)
4. 07:38 AM - Re: Procedures ingrained into your head.... (Brian Lloyd)
5. 08:31 AM - Gear handle (Patrick Scofield)
6. 08:39 AM - CJ spins (Jerry Painter)
7. 09:00 AM - Re: CJ-6 Spins ()
8. 09:14 AM - Re: CJ spins (Brian Lloyd)
9. 02:15 PM - Yak 52 Double Seat Belts (Tom Johnson)
10. 04:31 PM - Big spinners...... (Marcus Bates)
11. 06:51 PM - CJ spins, weight & balance, etc. (Walt Lannon)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Gus Fraser wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> Imagine if the valve fails and you suddenly get 750psi around your family
> jewels, not good for the procreation prospects....
Pop-off valve. OTOH, I suspect that the G-suit might fail at 750 PSI with spectacular
results.
> Just imagine the look on the pilots face. Of course every cloud has a silver
> lining I suppose that if over water there would be no need for a pfd....
he he!
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Lynn Williams wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lynn Williams" <laupdates@msn.com>
>
> After several spins in the CJ both to the left and right, I've been
> wondering what the typical characteristics are. In our experience, after
> approx 1.5 turns, the a/c tries to fly itself out of the spin, air speed
> increases out of stall range and the dive angle steepens even with full aft
> stick. At about 2 turns, there is a pretty good shimmy which feels like it
> comes from the empanage passing through the turbulent air flow. Of course
> VSI goes off the chart probably near 3k fpm. Just doesn't seem to hold in
> steady state. There are 2 other cj's at our home base but no one has spun
> either of them and I haven't flown either of them. This characterisic seems
> quite safe, probably would recover hands free, but I'm wondering what the
> rest of you experience.
Yes, that is typical. My take on it is that the buffet is the aircraft reentering
an incipient accelerated stall but that it never completely stalls again.
The spin degenerates into a spiral. That is why the airspeed and VS both increase.
The CJ will recover nose-down if you just release the stick and neutralize
the rudder.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Procedures ingrained into your head.... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
YakL1@aol.com wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: YakL1@aol.com
>
> This is also an important point in the CJ landing checklist.
Yes. Anyone who has received transition training from me knows that I yell if
I don't hear, "undercarriage down, slide lock engaged," during the pre-landing
GUMP check.
> I (have felt) your pain...
And it has saved my butt.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Procedures ingrained into your head.... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
aapilot@adelphia.net wrote:
> Folks new to the aircraft or to retracts, having the gear knob
> painted a unique color from the flap knob is perhaps one cheap
> measure to resist the pavlovs dog reaction of grabbing the black knob
> after landing...
People end up quickly doing things by feel as they "keep their heads out" so the
knob color doesn't help.
> This practice (sliding the gate) was so critical, I started a partern
> policy of charging $5 in my CJ after checking (the new partner) out
> solo if the other owner discovered the gate "unlocked"...
Good idea.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Patrick Scofield <patrick@designworx.com>
Gents,
I painted my gear handle in black and white marks like a tire. Use
1/8" masking tape and a rattle can of white. Shoot a clear coat over
the whole mess it will look great. Us tall guys MUST use the latch or
we risk putting the gear at least in the center position.
I have a cockpit picture at www.designworx.com/n4184w
Regards to all.
Patrick Scofield
President
Concept Designworx, Inc.
2550 N Thunderbird Circle
Suite #302
Mesa, AZ 85215
USA
Bus. 480-968-4125
Fax. 480-968-4126
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Sam Sax and Walt Lannon's remarks are dead on. Most US CJ's (Chinese
avionics removed--especially those w/M14's) have way forward CG's and
perform as noted, most notably when flying solo. CJ's are nice spinners
when in CG, but hardly spin w/forward CG--more like a stall entry to a
spiral. Leaving the old ADF in place for ballast, especially when flying
solo, helps keep the CG in place. Slides in and out real easy, too.
Install a nice baggage compartment back there and remove the ADF when you're
carrying bags and/or pax--works great and keeps you in CG. If you're
flaring with the stick against the stop you're out of CG. I'm a little
leery of lead in the tailskid etc for ballast without a structural analysis,
but the ADF trick works pretty well w/HS-6/-A engines.
The HS-6K with a three-blade metal prop is probably even worse than an M14
w/a composite prop. My understanding is the Nanchang factory will not
install more than 285hp for structural reasons. But the extra power is sure
nice! Note that the Eaglet Aerotech web page lists a higher gross weight
for the CJ-6G and more fuel. Anyone know the facts? Factory data is pretty
hard to come by. I called them one time and got a giggling secretary who
hung up on me! No English, I guess (and no Chinese from me, either). In
response to written inquiry, they advised me to scrap any airplanes not
purchased directly from them! Will the factory install HS-6K's and the
three-blade metal prop or is that a field mod? Any one from Victoria Air
Maintenance (the only dealer I know of for Eaglet) monitoring this
discussion?
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: <aapilot@adelphia.net>
A word of caution perhaps for those with CJ-6 in-wing, outboard extendid tanks
(welded to the stock tanks, adding, in our case, some 14 total gallons).
With the fuel balance near equal, but not perfect, after three rotations the spin
matured/transferred abruptly flat. Opposite rudder had no effect on rotation
rate. I had plenty of altitude over the desert, so let me say rudder had no
effect regardless of it's position - rudder blanking in this flat spin config
and fuel transporting outboard (longer moment): rudder had zero effectiveness.
Stall was easily broken with elevator.
Perhaps no baffles are installed in this tank mod and thus Fuel rapidly transports
to the outside wing tank mod.
Food for thought,
Drew
>
> From: "Lynn Williams" <laupdates@msn.com>
> Date: 2004/03/16 Tue PM 09:00:11 EST
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Spins
>
>
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Jerry Painter wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Sam Sax and Walt Lannon's remarks are dead on. Most US CJ's (Chinese
> avionics removed--especially those w/M14's) have way forward CG's and
> perform as noted, most notably when flying solo. CJ's are nice spinners
> when in CG, but hardly spin w/forward CG--more like a stall entry to a
> spiral.
Yes. My experience is that most CJs flying are at or ahead of the forward CG limit.
All the ones I have spun have the forward-CG behavior. There was quite
a discussion a couple years back about bogus W&B data for some of the airplanes
flying out there. For instance, while my W&B data indicated that the CG was
within normal CG limits, it flew as if the CG was ahead of the forward CG limit.
Even so, there was plenty of elevator authority in the landing flare.
> Leaving the old ADF in place for ballast, especially when flying
> solo, helps keep the CG in place. Slides in and out real easy, too.
> Install a nice baggage compartment back there and remove the ADF when you're
> carrying bags and/or pax--works great and keeps you in CG. If you're
> flaring with the stick against the stop you're out of CG. I'm a little
> leery of lead in the tailskid etc for ballast without a structural analysis,
We asked the airframe designer, Bushi Cheng, and he said there would be no problem
with the structure or with increased polar moment of inertia for weight in
the tail to bring the CG back into the normal range.
> but the ADF trick works pretty well w/HS-6/-A engines.
It strikes me that there are better ways to put an extra 40 lbs back there than
leaving the ADF in there. A scuba bottle makes a useful weight as would an O2
bottle.
> The HS-6K with a three-blade metal prop is probably even worse than an M14
> w/a composite prop. My understanding is the Nanchang factory will not
> install more than 285hp for structural reasons.
Bushi Cheng also said that the airframe was designed to accommodate an engine larger
than 285 HP. As I recall, he said the airframe was designed to accommodate
a 400 hp engine.
> But the extra power is sure
> nice! Note that the Eaglet Aerotech web page lists a higher gross weight
> for the CJ-6G and more fuel. Anyone know the facts? Factory data is pretty
> hard to come by. I called them one time and got a giggling secretary who
> hung up on me! No English, I guess (and no Chinese from me, either). In
> response to written inquiry, they advised me to scrap any airplanes not
> purchased directly from them!
Considering some of the CJs that are flying, I am not surprised.
> Will the factory install HS-6K's and the
> three-blade metal prop or is that a field mod?
I am not sure I would want the three-blade metal prop, especially if I am doing
any acro.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Yak 52 Double Seat Belts |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
Does anyone have a 7 point harness in a Yak 52
with the second lap belt attached to a place other than the seat?
Please advise if so and where you attached it.
Any pictures would be appreciated.
Contact me directly off-list and I will summarize to the list at a later date.
Tj
**********************************
Thomas Johnson
Cannon Aviation Insurance
1983 Yak 52
Tel: 800-851-2997
Fax: 480-951-1455
Cell: 602-628-2701
E: tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Big spinners...... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Marcus Bates" <mlbjr@earthlink.net>
To get information on new series of big spinners, E-mail address for Les Crowder
is skylanesus@aol.com........
Message 11
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| Subject: | CJ spins, weight & balance, etc. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Re; info from Jerry, Brian and Drew.
Having the spin go flat is scary. I guess it is possible that the added fuel inertia
in the extended tanks could account for it but I would also be suspicious
of the CG location. While I believe most CJ's will tend to be nose heavy it
is still entirely possible that the aft limit could be exceeded in some cases.
The CJ has an aft limit of 24.1% MAC which is an unusually far FORWARD location
for an aft limit. In most similar aircraft the aft limit is typically at 28 to
30%.
Being suspicious by nature I wonder what the flight test program revealed to dictate
that limit. I would not under any circumstances exceed 24.1%MAC.
Regarding ballast installation, I build a support structure between the two aft
frames with a reinforcement of the forward frame and a heavy, flanged, stainless
plate to support the lead. It is designed to exceed the aerobatic load requirements
of AC43.13 - 2A and the load path utilizes both frames and the skin.
The ballast is 1/8" PB sheet bolted to anchor nuts under the plate. Unfortunately
one was tested to probably 20 to 30 g's forward in a major crash that destroyed
the aircraft. The ballast and structure remained 100% intact. I don't bother
with filling the skid, the maximum available there is 3 lbs and would likely
result in internal corrosion. Neither the stainless plate or the PB is in
contact with any part of the aircraft structure.
I'm sure Mr. Cheng is probably right about the moment of inertia but I'm still
skeptical. As a result I limit the aft ballast to 28 lbs. Also install the ELT,
on additional structure, in the tail and a reserve air bottle on the ADF mount
as designated fixed ballast. Remarkably of the three restorations I have done
the tail ballast ended up at 26, 27 and 27lbs. - I guess that's why the Chinese
did not have individual aircraft weight and balance documents, one was the
same as all?
Re: polar moment of inertia. The T6 allows ballast in basically the same location,
on structure that would easily support 50 or 60 lbs. and be in compliance
with AC43.13-2A, yet limits it to a maximum of 32 lb. As a function of aircraft
weight that would represent about 16 lbs. in the CJ. Interesting. Don't know
if this has anything to do with mom.of inertia but I wonder.
Cheers;
Walt
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