Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:08 AM - Re: Reportable Accident (cpayne@joimail.com)
2. 04:13 AM - ?????? (Oliver Neufert)
3. 04:51 AM - Re: Re: Reportable Accident (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 04:56 AM - Fw: Accident/Incident (cjpilot710@aol.com)
5. 09:23 AM - Bad news... (Barry Hancock)
6. 02:55 PM - Sun 'n Fun Info (cpayne@joimail.com)
7. 04:25 PM - Comrade (Tom Johnson)
8. 04:26 PM - Been off the list (Michael Di Marco)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Reportable Accident |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@joimail.com
Pappy,
It was an Accident but perhaps not an Incident. It is
reportable, not so much to the FAA, but rather a written
report to be filed with the "nearest NSTB field office"
within 10 days of the accident under NTSB Part 830.
Craig Payne
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Oliver Neufert <oliver.neufert@wanadoo.fr>
Glad to hear the news.
Chicago convention, Annex 13:
more than 24 hours hospital -> accident
aircraft's airworthiness affected -> accident
the fact that the aircraft was on water does not affect the fact that it is
an aircraft from an ICAO point of view.
in any of the 2 above cases, the country of occurrence (as long as it is
member of ICAO?) has to lead an investigation on the accident and inform
the country of registration of the aircraft (UK).
My guess is that it must be somebody's duty to report the accident....
Quite interesting that that's "still in the air" at the FSDO?
Regards
Oliver.
Time: 07:49:17 PM PST US
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: ??????
keith.goolsby@eds.com, gaf127enl@msn.com, MDSHELLEY@aol.com,
yakjock@msn.com, walterfricke@yahoo.com, finleycj6@juno.com,
BDorsey777@aol.com, dabear@damned.org, TCalloway@hangar-d.com,
mason.t@worldnet.att.net, wpairprt@tdstelme.net, radialpower@cox.net,
KILOUSMC@aol.com, FamilyGage@aol.com, rvfltd@televar.com,
cd001633@mindspring.com, ernest.martinez@oracle.com,
FOUGAPILOT@hotmail.com,
N23GD@yahoo.com, jtobul@tobul.com, tormentor34@netzero.net
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Troops,
Remember the friend of mine who fell into her husband's prop? Thought you'd
like to get an up date.
She doing very well. AAMOF she only spent 4 days in the hospital mainly
because she has been undergoing cemo for breast cancer and the docs were
worried
about infection because she had had her lymph nodes removed.
Here is a question. Is this a "reportable accident or incident"?
Mark you this though.
1. The aircraft is registered and maintained in accordance of the U.K.
2. The aircraft was operating on water when the accident happened so may be
considered a "vessel".
3. No bones were broken.
4. No tendons were cut.
5. No nerves were cut.
6. The person injured was in the hospital for over 72 hours.
7. 6 inches of the prop is missing. No other damage to the aircraft. Cost
of a new prop about $2,000.
Mind you this is still "up in the air" but I thought a little discussion of
this might be fun. Believe it or not, there is a discussion amongst the 'Mucky
Mucks' at the FSDO if it is a reportable accident.
Here is a Lemoric that is going around our little airpark.
There was lady named Ann
Who stuck her head in a fan
Willie's prop she broke
But for him this was no joke
For he had pay for her 4 nights at Shands.
("Shands" is the hospital in JAX she was flown to).
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Reportable Accident |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:09:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cpayne@joimail.com writes:
> Pappy,
>
> It was an Accident but perhaps not an Incident. It is
> reportable, not so much to the FAA, but rather a written
> report to be filed with the "nearest NSTB field office"
> within 10 days of the accident under NTSB Part 830.
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
>
He did report it to the NTSB. They told him it didn't need to be reported.
The FAA FSDO is the agency that seems to be not sure what needs to be
reported.
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fwd: Accident/Incident |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 3/28/2004 3:00:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
n23gd@yahoo.com writes:
> Dear Jim,
>
> I was very sorry to hear about your friend's injury but I am glad to know
> that she is well on the road to recovery.
>
> I looked at Part 830 and would like to suggest the following:
>
> 1. US or British Registry
>
> 830.1(a) says, in part, "Initial notification and later reporting of
> aircraft incidents and accidents...when they involve foreign civil aircraft where
> the events occur in the United States..."
>
> I interpret this to mean that because the situation arose in the United
> States, the rules apply even if the plane is under British registry.
>
> For me, when operating my US registered aircraft in Singapore/Malaysia, I am
> subject to the rules/regulations as defined by the FAA and the local FAA
> equivalent.
>
> 2. Was the aircraft operating as an aircraft?
>
> 830.2 defines an "aircraft accident" as "an occurence associated with the
> operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards
> the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have
> disembarked..."
>
> I believe they had just landed and were approaching a dock. If they had
> just landed, they obviously had intended flight therefore this section applies.
>
> 3. Serious Injury
>
> "Serious Injury" is defined in several ways including "hospitalization for
> more than 48 hours." The person injured was in the hospital for 4 days (96
> hours). The fact that she was kept more than might be necessary under normal
> circumstances due to other factors does not seem to make any difference in the
> regulations. I ask the question:
>
> Would she have gone to the hospital had it not been for the injuries
> associated
> with this occurance?
>
> Most likely not therefore her hospitalization and length of hospitalization
> was related to the injuries suffered.
>
> 4. Substantial Damage
>
> This is defined several ways including "damage or failure which adversely
> affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the
> aircraft and which would normally require major repair or replacement..."
>
> The prop lost 4 inches. I am going to guess that operation of the engine
> with the prop in that condition would have had a signficant impact on
> performance and flight characteristics.
>
> There is a clause indicating that "ground damage to rotor or propeller
> blades" are not considered "substantial damage." I don't believe this applies
> because the damage was not caused by "ground contact" but rather contact with
a
> person.
>
> ---
> Summary: I feel that this occurance constitutes an accident and
> notification with 10 days after the accident is required. "Over the phone"
> notification might be sufficient at first but the pilot in command/operator should
get
> the name of the person he spoke to. The person should not be a secretary or
> clerk but rather an FAA field agent. Board Form 6120 may also be required.
>
> If the PIC does not file a report and it is determined later that a report
> was required, he is in trouble. On the other hand, if the FAA/NTSB determines
> that no report was required, that would be the end of it.
>
>
> I would be interested to know what the outcome of this matter is in terms of
> report filing, etc. I also wish the wife a speedy recovery.
>
> Very truly yours,
>
> Geoffrey Davis
> N23GD@YAHOO.COM
>
>
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
by smtp102.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Mar 2004 08:00:08 -0000
From: "Geoff \(N23GD\)" <n23gd@yahoo.com>
Subject: Accident/Incident
Dear Jim,
I was very sorry to hear about your friend's injury but I am glad to know that
she is well on the road to recovery.
I looked at Part 830 and would like to suggest the following:
1. US or British Registry
830.1(a) says, in part, "Initial notification and later reporting of aircraft incidents
and accidents...when they involve foreign civil aircraft where the events
occur in the United States..."
I interpret this to mean that because the situation arose in the United States,
the rules apply even if the plane is under British registry.
For me, when operating my US registered aircraft in Singapore/Malaysia, I am subject
to the rules/regulations as defined by the FAA and the local FAA equivalent.
2. Was the aircraft operating as an aircraft?
830.2 defines an "aircraft accident" as "an occurence associated with the operation
of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards=20the
aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked..."
I believe they had just landed and were approaching a dock. If they had just landed,
they obviously had intended flight therefore this section applies.
3. Serious Injury
"Serious Injury" is defined in several ways including "hospitalization for more
than 48 hours." The person injured was in the hospital for 4 days (96 hours).
The fact that she was kept more than might be necessary under normal circumstances
due to other factors does not seem to make any difference in=20the regulations.
I ask the question:
Would she have gone to the hospital had it not been for the injuries associated
with this occurance?
Most likely not therefore her hospitalization and length of hospitalization=20was
related to the injuries suffered.
4. Substantial Damage
This is defined several ways including "damage or failure which adversely affects
the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the=20aircraft
and which would normally require major repair or replacement..."
The prop lost 4 inches. I am going to guess that operation of the engine with
the prop in that condition would have had a signficant impact on performance and
flight characteristics.
There is a clause indicating that "ground damage to rotor or propeller blades"
are not considered "substantial damage." I don't believe this applies because
the damage was not caused by "ground contact" but rather contact with=20a person.
---
Summary: I feel that this occurance constitutes an accident and notification with
10 days after the accident is required. "Over the phone" notification might
be sufficient at first but the pilot in command/operator should get=20the name
of the person he spoke to. The person should not be a secretary or clerk
but rather an FAA field agent. Board Form 6120 may also be required.
If the PIC does not file a report and it is determined later that a report was
required, he is in trouble. On the other hand, if the FAA/NTSB determines that
no report was required, that would be the end of it.
I would be interested to know what the outcome of this matter is in terms of report
filing, etc. I also wish the wife a speedy recovery.
Very truly yours,
Geoffrey Davis
N23GD@YAHOO.COM
<META content"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" nameGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
Dear Jim,
I was very sorry to hear about your friend's
injury but I am glad to know that she is well on the road to
recovery.
I looked at Part 830 and would like to suggest
the following:
1. US or British Registry
830.1(a) says, in part, "Initial notification and
later reporting of aircraft incidents and accidents...when they involve foreign
civil aircraft where the events occur in the United States..."
I interpret this to mean that because the
situation arose in the United States, the rules apply even if the plane is under
British registry.
For me, when operating my US registered aircraft
in Singapore/Malaysia, I am subject to the rules/regulations as defined by the
FAA and the local FAA equivalent.
2.Was the aircraft operating=20as an
aircraft?
830.2 defines an "aircraft accident" as "an
occurence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between
the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all
such persons have disembarked..."
I believe they had just landed and were
approaching a dock. If they had just landed, they obviously had intended
flight therefore this section applies.
3. Serious Injury
"Serious Injury" is defined in several ways
including "hospitalization for more than 48 hours." The person injured was
in the hospital for 4 days (96 hours). The fact that she was kept more
than might be necessary under normal circumstances due to other factors does not
seem to make any difference in the regulations. I ask the
question:
Would she have gone to the
hospital had it not been for the injuries associated
with this
occurance?
Most likely not therefore her hospitalization and
length of hospitalizationwas related to the injuries
suffered.
4. Substantial Damage
This is defined several ways including "damage or
failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight
characteristics of the aircraft and which would normally require major repair or
replacement..."
The prop lost 4 inches. I am going=20to guess
that operation of the engine with the prop in that condition would have had=20a
signficant impact on performance and flight characteristics.
There is a clause indicating that "ground damage
to rotor or propeller blades" are not considered "substantial damage." I
don't believe this applies because the damage was not caused by "ground contact"
but rather contact with a person.
---
Summary: I feel that this occurance
constitutes an accident and notification with 10 days after the accident is
required. "Over the phone" notification might be sufficient at first but
the pilot in command/operator should get the name of the person he spoke
to. The person should not be a secretary or clerk but rather an FAA field
agent. Board Form 6120 may also be required.
If the PIC does not file a report and it=20is
determined later that a report was required, he is in trouble. On the
other hand, if the FAA/NTSB determines that no report was required, that would
be the end of it.
I would be interested to know what the outcome of
this matter is in terms of report filing, etc. I also wish the wife a
speedy recovery.
Very truly yours,
Geoffrey Davis
N23GD@YAHOO.COM
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
They found the MiG...with George still in the airplane. No further
details available at this time.
We mourn his loss and will miss his presence. Thank you for your
thoughts and prayers, though I hope they will continue for his family
and friends.
Blue skies, my friend.
Barry
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@joimail.com
SNF Yakker's,
1) There is a certified parachute packer at my home field.
He has done Russian CY-4 'chutes both seat pack and ejection
seats. You can get your 'chutes repacked at Lakeland warbird
area by Deborah Kelly of Strong, or I can load them in my
truck for 1 day turn-around from Winter Haven. Price is the
same everywhere...$40 on the seatpacks. I just need a
heads-up, this guy works a day job for a DOD 'chute
contractor out of Tampa.
2) Who will join me in challenging the Capitalist Hordes in
the Sun 60 race? About 5 RPA'ers compete each year, 1
Nanchang and 4 SF-260's. I will proudly wave the RPA flag
and demonstrate the superior capacity of our honorable
machines before the Imperialist Spammers. Do the 400HP
'-TW's have any bite to their bark, or is it all show and
no-go?
Craig Payne
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
As many of you know, we lost a comrade in a Mig 17 over New Mexico this week.
MANY-- many -- MaNY thanks to New Mexico Wing of Civil Air Patrol (CAP), New Mexico
State Patrol and all the other agencies involved.
Within hours after the first reports CAP had air and ground assets searching.
Over the weekend every available aircraft was scrambled to methodically search
each and every possible grid.
Late Saturday afternoon a volunteer CAP crew made the "Find".
The family can now move on. Nothing could be worse than never finding anything~!
Thanks for their hard work.
MISSION COMMANDER:
Ric Himebrook
himebrookr@totacc.com
WING COMMANDER:
Frank.Buethe@kirtland.af.mil
NM Civil Air Patrol Wing Hq
P. O. Box 5069
Kirtland AFB, NM 87185-5069
Message 8
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| Subject: | Been off the list |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Michael Di Marco <cj6a_chinablue@yahoo.com>
I've been off the list for a number of months and it is hard to read 1000+ messages.
So excuse me for asking questions that may have been covered since last
December.
Landing Light Replacement:
Has any progress been made in finding a US bulb or bulb/socket refit?
LED Indicator Bulb Replacements:
Did they work?
S&F:
When will the FAST clinic happen and do I have to join YPA to participate?
ANR Headsets:
DO NOT buy the Panther Electronics CATS. I worked with them for over a year trying
to eliminate rf interferance that is not present in conventional headsets.
They took leasons learned to improve other products and get a contract with
Alaska Airlines. Then when I finally give up with an effort going nowhere, they
short my refund $150. Anyhow, I now use a DC 10-20 that was a world of difference
from CATS or the Pilot and XL headsets I'd used in the past.
Can't wait to meet you all at S&F. My wife is supposed to be there as GIB as we
both get to experience formation flight for the first time. We'll stay for
the show one day and depart after the formation arrival the next. Each RON will
be at the home drome -- Kissimmee.
Later HiYen Flyers,
Mike
China Blue
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