Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: High Cotton (Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd)
2. 05:30 AM - Re: Re: support (Kelley Monroe)
3. 06:24 AM - Re: HS6 (Jim Bernier)
4. 06:58 AM - hs6 (jay reiter)
5. 08:45 AM - Re: Jim Plumlee (N4829T@aol.com)
6. 09:04 AM - Exhaust parts (TC Johnson)
7. 09:05 AM - Commie Parts (Paul Dumoret)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: Original fabric (Dean Courtney)
9. 12:02 PM - Re: factory support--better get your wallet out! (Jerry Painter)
10. 12:42 PM - Re: Commie Parts (Doug Sapp)
11. 02:32 PM - SPAM (N13472@aol.com)
12. 05:44 PM - Re: Monocoupe (cpayne@joimail.com)
13. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Monocoupe (KJKimball@aol.com)
14. 06:54 PM - fabric (Jerry Painter)
15. 08:20 PM - High Cotton (Frank Haertlein)
16. 09:11 PM - More ARS photos (Barry Hancock)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd" <mark@yakuk.com>
This is what happens to russian cotton after 4 years, usually the whole elivater
will be torn away. I have seen this twice many years ago.
http://www.yakuk.com/img/ffabric.jpg
MJ
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gary Reynolds <gary.reynolds@hills.com.au>
Gday i wouldn't fly it with any of their fabric still on it in Australia
we
replace all control surfaces with Dacron (ceconite/Stits etc) before flight
i have heard of a yak that lost some of the original fabric in flight .off
of the elevators. i would change it especially in the prop wash areas
Gary Reynolds
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Haertlein [mailto:yak52driver@earthlink.net]
Subject: Yak-List: High Cotton
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yaksters;
Just got a 52 in with cotton surfaces. I picked off a small piece from
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Kelley Monroe" <kelmonroe@comcast.net>
I bought new engine oil hoses for my now 4th CJ6 from Doug Sapp. The hoses
came cut in lenths, sealed on each end and match the OE hoses in every way.
Why would anyone want to take a chance on a US standard hose when a factory
metric hose is available from the guy that keeps us flying?
The Strut Tool Guy
Kelley Monroe
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
I hate to pass the buck, but the man to talk to about the CJ engines is Marc Bates.
I purchased an engine from him that was stamped as an HS6, no A. The remarkable
thing about to was the oil lubricated top end. Marc said that this engine
was one of the last CJ6 to be produced.
Jim B
>>> jmreiter@adelphia.net 05/23/04 01:34PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Jim Bernier has a HS6 torn down that he was thinking of modifying. Jim is very
helpful on the engine with internal engine information.
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Sorry I took your name in vain Jim. Marcus is helpful also but I remembered you
saying your engune was the older engine
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: N4829T@aol.com
New numbers:
843-263-0679
843-987-3260
Jim Plumle
"Launch Pad"
N31103/CJ-6A
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "TC Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
Looking for a new set of exhaust clamps and seals.
Not the doughnuts at the cylinder . . . (don't say doughnut . . ate too many at
ARS .. )
But I need the seals and clamps for the joints around the exhaust ring.
Please contact directly off list: tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
Tom Johnson
Yak52
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Paul Dumoret" <3bar@telus.net>
Just read Doug's diatribe regarding Yak parts and hoses an' stuff. Come
on Doug - you were pissed, and not to be blamed for it either. Having
known you for over 12 years when you first got into this business and
watched what you have accomplished along with the associated gamble (not
just with fickle A/C owners, but regulation changes), no one in their
right mind should even bother re-inventing the friggin' wheel. In (and
for) your case, you have "been there-done it" notwithstanding help from
guys such as Joe, Walt and many others. Most people don't understand the
"Cajons" you have placed on the block to get to this level - surely to
God, those who want to complain would never consider it. Doug, you're
allowed to be pissed and don't be so subtle trying to hide it, what with
the Miniyak down due to fabric issues, your CJ down to Reg issues, you
have been bumming rides for years 'cause of your hangar queens. Now you
have to concentrate on you, (# 1), and get them in the air so you can go
back to enjoying the thrills of flight in these great machines. Chin up
ol' man, it's only a very few who don't know your real worth to this
community - and you'll always have that!!
Regards,
Paul Dumoret
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: Original fabric |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dean Courtney" <deancourtney696@hotmail.com>
Original fabric on the control surfaces? There is a factory "service
bulletin" requiring replacement of that unknown stuff. Check Mark Jefferies
web site.
Cheers,
Dean Courtney
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: factory support--better get your wallet out! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Doug,
My experience is exactly the same as yours.
One reason I became a dealer for Aerostar and tried to become a dealer for
new CJ's was my nave expectation that they would provide aircraft of known
quality (How can you screw up a new airplane? They do!) at a fixed price in
a reasonable period of time, likewise parts. Not so! We've all been
through the agony of trying to track down parts and couldnt get any, so had
to improvise, lying about what the parts were for ("we can't sell you this
if you're going to use it on an airplane") etc etc. Improvisation isn't
usually a good thing with airplanes. That's why we have an FAA and
certification.
Frank asks what to do because he doesn't know WHERE to get hose--he assumes
hose is available. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Seems like a reasonable
question, but you can't buy it from Aviall, so where do you go? Try finding
a cylinder for a Warner. Warners haven't been made for a thousand years so
there are NO parts. But actually, there are parts--if you know where to
look. But CJ's and -52's are still in production so parts should be readily
available, right? The obvious thing would be to go to a dealer who gets his
parts from the factory. Mark Jefferies says support the factories. I would
completely agree with Mark if the factories would support their customers.
You and I (and Mark) know the factories are clueless and couldnt care
less--I think they're just looking for baksheesh and we don't rate.
That means sometimes you need to find alternative solutions (like you would
for a Warner-Aeromatic Monocoupe, FAA be damned). Even if the factory made
parts at reasonable prices, lots of folks would still look for alternative
solutions if it meant saving a little cash. Fortunately you are one of the
alternative solutions and we're all grateful, since otherwise we'd be SOL.
I know where you get your parts, you know where I get my airplanes--NOT the
factory! If I had known you had hose and fittings I would have said as
much--not spam in my book--critical information for the safety of flight.
Would someone complain about spamming if you said buy a part for your Cessna
from Cessna? The clubs and Yak-list are the only sources of info for most
Yaksters. If identifying sources and solutions is spam, we need more spam.
Whether or not someone makes a little money (wishful thinking!) is beside
the point. Improvising on airplanes is a dangerous thing for most people to
undertake. But sometimes us gray marketers are unable to come up with
what's required and you have no choice but to improvise. We all know that
unless the factories realize there is a market to be served, someday there
won't be any parts for anyone. Why improvise if the real thing is
available? If we could get reasonable and realistic factory support we
would all be better off. 80/87 fuel? 115/145? Your engine doesn't like
100LL? Sorry. Still, we keep 'em flying!
And I think its important for everyone to understand how things work--that's
why I cc the list. We need a transparent system. You and I both know there
are lots of unairworthy airplanes flying around because of improvisation.
Very few people are going to try to emulate you in the parts business or me
in the airplane business--though many may try for brief periods. I had no
idea 2 Genes was selling FOD kits for -52's. Did you? That's useful
information. I learn all kinds of things from postings on the Yak-list.
If Christian Dragoi sends me an email today saying Aerostar has changed its
ways I'll become a dealer for them again instantly. Unfortunately, it ain't
gonna happen. When I told them I wanted to buy engines and they said the
wholesale price would be $25K, I told them to forget it. Close up the
factory. No market at $25K wholesale when you can buy engines for (then)
$12K retail, complete with prop! How about parts? No interest. Just ship
the engines to Bacau and they'd maintain them. Ditto airplanes. Just stuff
them in an envelope and mail them over. Manuals? Why would anyone want
manuals? Full text SB's/AD's? Kits? What for? Amazing!
Why anyone would even TRY (since it's impossible) do business with them is a
mystery to me. But, I note that their engine prices are now much more
competitive and that surplus prices have gone up--good for the factory, good
for the gray marketers, good for end users. Termikas is now building a
-52TD that looks like a whole lot smarter solution than the -52TW and at a
much more realistic price (spam?). More supply, better prices, more
reliable sources, more transparency. A little competition can be a good
thing. But there are still many parts that are simply unavailable--not
good. Unless the factories wise up, someday we'll all run out of parts.
Then you and I will be out of business. If they get smart, it's good for
all of us, Beech prices or not. Some people like Beech prices! There will
still be a market for surplus airplanes and parts at better prices. People
still buy Warner Monocoupes with Aeromatics. In the meantime, sometimes
improvisation is the only choice, and occasionally, the better choice--even
CJ/-52 supplemental fuel systems (an especially dangerous place to
improvise) etc. Good luck in the meantime.
I wish someone would build plentiful quantities of a 2-place, retractable,
fast, good looking, US built, certificated, aerobatic airplane with a 1000
mile range and a 985 and Ham Std for under $100K. Not holding my breath.
Jerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
Subject: factory support--better get your wallet out!
Jerry,
Factory support would mean Beechcraft prices. It has become very obvious
that CJ6 (retired) prices cannot run much higher than about 80 to 100K
finished and flying. If we had to go to the factory for parts that aircraft
would cost you nearly 200K by the time you got it in the air. You must
remember that they are a communist country, the workers work because they
have to, the factory gets paid rather they show a profit or not, why should
they bust their butts to help you and me?? My parts come from the air
bases. The factory really builds very little, they are more of a assembly
point than a factory (as we know the term). All production comes from a
myriad of small factories scattered all over China. This WWII thinking was
to prevent the loss of the entire factory if it were bombed by the enemy. To
place an order with the factory is nearly impossible unless you want to
order 100 units. You cannot for instance order 1 new cowl, but they will
talk to you if you want to order 50 new cowls. A set of cowling from the
air bases cost me 20% of what the factory wants and I can buy them one at a
time. The airbase cowl is available right now, the factory cowls would take
6 months. Two years ago I went to factory 320 at Nanchang, and sat down
with them and told them I wanted them to produce a stainless steel exhaust
system for the 285 hp engine. They said ok but you have to take 20 units, I
said no problem. They were to tell me when they were ready and I would send
the money in full, in advance. 6 months passed and I happened to be talking
with a friend from Australia, he started telling me about this cool
stainless steel exhaust system he was buying from Eaglet! I called the
factory and they told me that CATIC/Eaglet had taken the production and was
selling them to "their customers"!! These folks have not a clue as to how
we capitalist dogs do business, hell they have knocked off my aux fuel
system (look at the Eaglet mailer.)
The list I sent you is last years list, I have many other parts not on the
list as I have received 3 shipments since that list was published. A new
more complete list will be published soon.
I responded to you directly and not the list for a reason--there are a few
guys on the list who view this type of an exchange as bordering on spam
because I am in the parts business. When I respond directly to you it is
for a reason. They would be correct in pointing out that you don't see Carl
or Geo doing postings like this. I was surprised to see that you had
forwarded our exchange to the list. Not a problem, just surprised me.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Geeze guys, That email was supposed to be a personal rant to Jerry Painter,
who forwarded it to the list without my knowing it. Guess it's true, once
you push the button you just never know who is listening / reading! But
thanks to you all for your kind words. And Paul, are you off your meds
again?
But there is one item that I would like to clear up--while it is true that
during my prolonged ground bound predicament I have been known to load into
most any CJ like a old bird dog looking for a chance to go hunting, I have
NOT been "bumming" I have my dignity you know! I may have on occasion
groveled and whined and at one time I think I actually sniveled (but no one
noticed so that doesn't count), but I have not been Bumming!! (anybody got
a empty seat to Lincoln?);>)
With the new CJ inching ever closer to the hanger door, I plan to be in the
air soon. The only glitch now is with the paperwork, which should be
resolved in a week or so....hopefully.
Thanks again.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Dumoret
Subject: Yak-List: Commie Parts
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Paul Dumoret" <3bar@telus.net>
Just read Doug's diatribe regarding Yak parts and hoses an' stuff. Come
on Doug - you were pissed, and not to be blamed for it either. Having
known you for over 12 years when you first got into this business and
watched what you have accomplished along with the associated gamble (not
just with fickle A/C owners, but regulation changes), no one in their
right mind should even bother re-inventing the friggin' wheel. In (and
for) your case, you have "been there-done it" notwithstanding help from
guys such as Joe, Walt and many others. Most people don't understand the
"Cajons" you have placed on the block to get to this level - surely to
God, those who want to complain would never consider it. Doug, you're
allowed to be pissed and don't be so subtle trying to hide it, what with
the Miniyak down due to fabric issues, your CJ down to Reg issues, you
have been bumming rides for years 'cause of your hangar queens. Now you
have to concentrate on you, (# 1), and get them in the air so you can go
back to enjoying the thrills of flight in these great machines. Chin up
ol' man, it's only a very few who don't know your real worth to this
community - and you'll always have that!!
Regards,
Paul Dumoret
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: N13472@aol.com
All of our planes need / will need parts, Mods, improvements etc. If someone
informing me of the availability of the above so I can keep my plane flying,
Safer,
etc., then let the SPAM roll! I would much rather read this type of Spam than
read
the dribble of some of the Ego's on this list trying to piss on each others
shoes.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6 N63727
Sandy Valley NV
3L2
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Jeeze,
What's all this Monocoupe talk about? How's about an M-14P
powered homebuilt Clipwing Monocoupe? Well it was at SNF.
Looked great and next to a real Clipwing, it was noticably
larger, a full 2-people wide rather than 1-1/2 people wide
like the original. It's called the McCullough Coupe, ask Jim
Kimball for more details. No idea on performance but I'm
sure there will be an article on it somewhere.
I'd trade my CJ if someone would take the deal. LOL.
Formation Monocoupes anyone?
Craig Payne
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
Craig,
Thank you for the kind words on the McCullocoupe. It belongs to John
McCulloch and is coupe like in style which is how we came up with the name. We
restored a clipwing monocoupe for John in 1992 and we did the yellow one that was
at SNF next to the McCullocoupe a few years later. The MCC flew for the first
time in March of this year. Basically, it is how big a clipwing would have to
be in order to fit the 403hp M14PF engine on the front. Prop was designed
for it specifically by MT.
There are stories on it now and upcoming. The Spring issue of Sportsman
Pilot, www.sportsmanpilot.com for a link to it. This is a quarterly mag by Jack
and Golda Cox. Soon, in a few months, there will be a story on the
McCullocoupe in EAA sport Aviation.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Frank,
The FAA standard for fabric is still Grade A cotton. Don't know where to
buy it, but that's the standard. That's why you need an STC to use Stits,
Ceconite etc on almost all fabric covered US certificated aircraft. Nothing
wrong with cotton, but it does lose strength with age and will rot. Still,
it will last a long, long time with proper care. Any A&P should be able to
test it--Maule makes a tester. It's the 70% rule--min 80psi materials,
56psi (70%) min "deteriorated." See AC 43-13-1B/2A and 65-15A. Also, see
Yak UK's web site for UK "AD/SB" and an example of what can go wrong.
Friend of mine had ALL of the fabric come off one -52 elevator. Likewise
another friend's -18T. Both are lucky to have survived. Some "overhauls"
have used substandard materials. Most don't lock stitch or use silver.
Look out!
Yes, US fittings are 37 degrees.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Jerry said
"The FAA standard for fabric is still Grade A cotton. Don't know where
to buy it, but that's the standard. That's why you need an STC to use
Stits, Ceconite etc on almost all fabric covered US certificated
aircraft".
Geezus Krist, Jerry? When is the FAA going to get with the times?
I can tell you the crux of the story..... The FAA is afraid to progress
and embrace innovation or change because of perceived unknowns and the
present tort/litigious society. Even if there is an advanced product,
few are willing to put it to market for fear of tort/litigation and the
expense involved.
Note the departure of Burt Rutan from the experimental market. He
basically said "fu&( this" I'm outta here! He's just another "world
class" innovator held back by a litigious, tort oriented government
acting as a stupid big brother. Is it any wonder the US is behind in
innovation? It's the perfect example of the big brother government
attitude so pervasive in our lives.
Bottom line is the insurance industry and it's lawyers hold us back from
affordability and innovation. The parasite has gotten too big for the
host. We all pay the price in higher costs, inferior products and a
reduced quality of life. Why do you think so many are building
experimentals or buying FSU or Chinese aircraft? Because they're
affordable and aren't subject to stupid US laws of (certificated)
airworthiness that has little basis in reality........just like the
rules and standards on cotton you detailed above.
Sorry Tom, but that's how I see it.
Frank
N911OM
YAK-52
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
Gang,
Check out Allen Silver's home page for photos of ARS III. Thanks to
Allen for another great year. He packed a ton of chutes and gave
another great emergency egress presentation.
http://www.pia.com/silver/
Cheers,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Event Director
All Red Star 2004
(949) 300-5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
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