Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:33 AM - FAST clinics survey (MFilucci@aol.com)
2. 01:44 AM - FAST clinics (MFilucci@aol.com)
3. 01:58 AM - Re: FAST clinics (Brian Lloyd)
4. 04:24 AM - Re: FAST clinics survey (Gus Fraser)
5. 05:16 AM - Re: FAST clinics survey (Ernie)
6. 05:17 AM - Re: FAST clinics (Ernie)
7. 05:47 AM - Re: FAST clinics survey (Ernie)
8. 05:51 AM - FAST clinics survey (MFilucci@aol.com)
9. 05:53 AM - FAST clinics survey (MFilucci@aol.com)
10. 07:16 AM - Graeme Frew (jay reiter)
11. 03:47 PM - test (Dave Laird)
12. 04:42 PM - Re: You`ve got 1 VoiceMessage! (Doug Sapp)
13. 04:44 PM - Re: FAST clinics survey (Drew Blahnick)
14. 07:41 PM - A good friend was lost today. (Doug Sapp)
15. 08:09 PM - Re: A good friend was lost today. (Drew Blahnick)
16. 10:23 PM - Vern (Barry Hancock)
Message 1
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| Subject: | FAST clinics survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
In a message dated 6/15/04 7:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
fraseg@comcast.net writes:
So many things in life are bogus but we still accept them :)
Mike I just did this because the conversation was just going around in
circles.
If your figures are right that just 10% of members go then do you not see
that as a problem ?
Maybe, just maybe, knowing what the masses want may make attendance more
palatable ?
I could be wrong though, I usually am.
Gus,
I don't think you are wrong at all in your intent, I just want the survey,
like any instrument of this sort, to be useful.
Like many of our guys, I have been going to OSH for many, many years. I've
camped, stayed in the dorms, stayed in hotels, etc. If I were a first-time
attendee I wouldn't think of staying anywhere else but at OSH. Having been there
so many times now, I wouldn't think of staying anywhere but MTW.
Like anything else, there are positive aspects to either choice and each of
us has to weigh the factors and decide accordingly.
People don't participate at OSH for any number of reasons and I suspect it
really has nothing to do with where we stage our training -- it is much more
likely to do with the more mundane facts of life: getting the time off from
work, getting the time away from family responsibilities, convincing a
non-aviation oriented wife to go to OSH for vacation yet another year, having
the
money to make the trip, etc. The 10% number should not surprize anyone. Every
association/organization I have ever been affiliated with, from homeowners
associations, to unions, to the RPA, etc., always has a certain small percentage
of active people that you see at most of the events. The greater percentage
are chronic no-shows -- that's just a fact of life.
Gus, you are a creative, talented guy and I don't want you to stop
contributing your energy to the good of the cause. Surveys are very tricky
instruments. If not phrased correctly, the results can reflect an outcome that
has no
meaning to the intended question. That is my only concern here.
Regards,
Mike
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
In a message dated 6/15/04 8:36:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dhanshew@cinci.rr.com writes:
I always thought Fred Ihlenberg's original intent for the group was that
everyone just get together and have a good time for a week. That included
formation flying, aerobatic box, fly outs, dinner together and whatever made
your vacation with the Yak folks a fun one. We met so many great people
there! And, we had such a great time. (hmmm... I don't even think we wore
flight suits ALL week!)
That's what it was all about - having fun with old friends and meeting new
friends, right?
Donna,
Where in the heck have you and Steve been? I haven't seen you two at a
fly-in in a long, long time.
Actually, I think Fred would be pleased with all the fly-ins that are taking
place all around the country -- it's his original concept, repeated many
times over in many locations. Every one that I have attended (six last year and
4 so far this year) have been exactly as you describe Fred's original
get-togethers -- great flying, aerobatics, dinners and barbecues on the field,
camaraderie aplenty. I can't imagine a situation where you get a bunch of Yak
drivers together and not have a good time, can you?
Hope to see you guys at a get-together this year -- you've got to drag Steve
off the farm one of these days.
Mike
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FAST clinics |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Steve & Donna Hanshew wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Donna Hanshew" <dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
>
> You know, the best time we ever had was in Hot Springs, South Dakota at the
> first "Yak" gathering. We even had a T-34 among us! (yikes...)
And we had a good time at Spencer too, remember? You and I went up and practiced
as a two-ship a couple of times as I recall. That is where Pappy gave me my
lead checkride and Walt Fricke did his wing checkride. Walt paid me one of
the highest complements I have ever received. My son Seth came with me and we
just hung out. Yeah, that was a great fly-in too.
> I always thought Fred Ihlenberg's original intent for the group was that
> everyone just get together and have a good time for a week. That included
> formation flying, aerobatic box, fly outs, dinner together and whatever made
> your vacation with the Yak folks a fun one. We met so many great people
> there! And, we had such a great time. (hmmm... I don't even think we wore
> flight suits ALL week!)
>
> That's what it was all about - having fun with old friends and meeting new
> friends, right?
It depends. I think this argument about MTW vs. OSH is silly. It is people trying
to convince others that their way is better. Voting is silly (even tho'
I did vote in the straw poll just for fun and to skew the results). It never
ceases to amaze me how people can slavishly follow the majority when it isn't
what they want. If you want to go with the group that is staying at MTW, do so.
If you want to go with the group that is staying at OSH, do so. If you want
to practice for the "big wing", do so. If you want to practice for your FAST
card, do so. Don't worry about what the other people are doing. In this Blitz
got it 100% right. What do YOU want to do for YOUR vacation?
I like the sensory overload of being at OSH. There is just too much cool stuff
to see and learn. MTW is great and it is more relaxed. Flying out of MTW is
a lot easier and you can get many more sorties in so it is much better for training.
Flying out of OSH is challenging and an adrenaline rush but you won't
get many sorties in a day, maybe two if you are lucky. I usually bump into people
I haven't seen for a long time at OSH and end up going out to dinner with
them. If you want to stick with the same guys because you like their company,
go to MTW. Most importantly, have fun with it.
> I just wonder what Fred would think about all of this now?
Well, Fred's dead so he probably isn't thinking much about it right now. OTOH,
if he were here he would probably just shake his head and chuckle.
And speaking of OSH/MTW, I may be there. If so, I will be happy to fly in people's
back seats, give dual instruction, give BFRs, teach CJ6A systems ground school,
etc. I have no idea what I will be flying but it probably won't be a Yak/CJ.
It will probably be either the Comanche or the Aztec, both of which qualify
as "Contemporary Classics" now.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 4
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| Subject: | FAST clinics survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Ironically, and I mean that in the English sense, I put up the survey to
help put some perspective on what had turned into a voluminous quantity of
email on this subject. As Wolf Blitzer says every night on CNN "This is not
a scientific poll and certainly may not reflect reality".
The fact that the poll itself has sparked even more discussion would, if I
were part of the management, cause me to stand back and ask myself why this
is such an inflammatory subject. But, I am not, so I wont.
I did try to go to the RPA poll site and found that I could not log on. I
tried to be renotified of my login and was told that the site had no idea
who I was. Not defeated I searched through my old emails to find a past
notification of my credentials, Ha I found them, I tried them :(((( no joy.
I have sent a mail to Deon (hint). Now I am no conspiracy theorist but....
Ernie too ?
Now I set up this poll as I REALLY was interested in what the general
feeling was out there. What I have discovered is what we all know if we just
think about this for two seconds.
PEOPLE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT.
Drew's best point and one which is probably the best one made in this whole
list of mails is the following:-
IF YOU WANT LOCAL EVENTS, ORGANIZE THEM.
The best events I have attended are the ones where an email on Wednesday or
a phone call on Friday results in a gathering somewhere.
I think if RPA had a mechanism to call something an RPA event, after the
event, there would be a lot more of them. What I am saying is that if we go
out this weekend and it turns into an event where meaningful and substantial
training is given and received then, although this gathering were intended
as informal a lot of good work was done.
As such, flights taken, instruction given should be recognized. There are
very many of us who live our flying lives day to day and cannot commit to
days, weeks, months in advance and we have to take our chances as we can.
This was Ernie's initial point that he could not commit to long formal
training sessions, there are those that can, and more power to you, but
there are also a LARGE number that do this all in a less formal fashion. If
I were interpreting these results, which I am not, I might conclude that
this other group, lets call them headless chickens, might like to have
training and accomplishment recognized. Trying to work through a FAST patch
when you cannot commit to "sanctioned" events is tough.
If I call a few buddies and we get together this weekend and one of the guys
there is a flight lead and another is able to give back seats and we do some
quality training that would qualify it should be recognized.
House coordinates not included to avoid cluster bomb attacks.
Gus Fraser
Headless Chicken.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
MFilucci@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
In a message dated 6/15/04 7:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
fraseg@comcast.net writes:
So many things in life are bogus but we still accept them :)
Mike I just did this because the conversation was just going around in
circles.
If your figures are right that just 10% of members go then do you not see
that as a problem ?
Maybe, just maybe, knowing what the masses want may make attendance more
palatable ?
I could be wrong though, I usually am.
Gus,
I don't think you are wrong at all in your intent, I just want the survey,
like any instrument of this sort, to be useful.
Like many of our guys, I have been going to OSH for many, many years. I've
camped, stayed in the dorms, stayed in hotels, etc. If I were a first-time
attendee I wouldn't think of staying anywhere else but at OSH. Having been
there
so many times now, I wouldn't think of staying anywhere but MTW.
Like anything else, there are positive aspects to either choice and each of
us has to weigh the factors and decide accordingly.
People don't participate at OSH for any number of reasons and I suspect it
really has nothing to do with where we stage our training -- it is much more
likely to do with the more mundane facts of life: getting the time off from
work, getting the time away from family responsibilities, convincing a
non-aviation oriented wife to go to OSH for vacation yet another year,
having the
money to make the trip, etc. The 10% number should not surprize anyone.
Every
association/organization I have ever been affiliated with, from homeowners
associations, to unions, to the RPA, etc., always has a certain small
percentage
of active people that you see at most of the events. The greater percentage
are chronic no-shows -- that's just a fact of life.
Gus, you are a creative, talented guy and I don't want you to stop
contributing your energy to the good of the cause. Surveys are very tricky
instruments. If not phrased correctly, the results can reflect an outcome
that has no
meaning to the intended question. That is my only concern here.
Regards,
Mike
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FAST clinics survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Smart Ass :)
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
>
> Earnie,
>
> 1. After you log-in just look left and you will see a link
"Polls/Opinions"
> easy.
>
> 2. Can't login? Deon has a link in the center of the page in bright red
> "Forgot you login info? Click Here" can't miss it
>
> 3. Forgot your log in info? See #2 above, shake well and repeat.
>
> 4. Want personal attention? Write deon the web manager who has placed his
> e-mail right below that big red text noted
> in #2, take a look.
>
> 5. Complaining to the yak list probably won't give you your login info you
> forgot to write down.
>
> I highly suspect the reason "auto-login" is not remembering you has
nothing
> to do with the web site and
> everything to do with security settings with your PC, but ask Deon....and
> no, it's not a "hint", this web site never
> discriminates against those who complain before reading the directions.
>
> But again, we are remaking the home page to be very easy to navigate, lots
> of white space and less busy - stay tuned!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> >
> > I went and looked and couldnt find "Polls". Also it keeps NOT
remembering
> > me, (is that a hint?) and I cant remember the login number assigned to
> me.
> >
> > Ernie
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick"
> <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > I've loaded a survey for RPA members on www.flyredstar.org ("polls")
> > > directed at those who have previously attended MTW and/or heading
there
> > this
> > > year.
> > >
> > > The poll is informational only for the RC to capture what sentiment is
> out
> > > there on this event...
> > >
> > > Drew
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
> > > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick"
> > <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > Again folks, I urge you, if you are going to MTW or OSH, to write
the
> NC
> > > RC
> > > > (Herb) and let him know your wishes directly, and suggestions.
> > > >
> > > > I'm going to have a conference call with Herb and others on the
> MTW/OSH
> > > team
> > > > later this month to discuss your e-mails, among other things.
> > > >
> > > > Drew Blahnick
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FAST clinics |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
When are you moving to Fla???
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinics
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
>
> This is interesting...why do you feel so hindered? Anyone can set up a
> general event and load it with any activities wanted.
> All Red Star may be a bit of an extreme, but you have 10 differant
> activities going on, dinners, etc.
>
> MTW, OLU and GED all have such things as aerobatic boxes, bomb drops, spot
> landings, etc.
>
> I wonder if you read my post on this issue; the association should be
going
> to small unit events (as well as supporting the larger ones)
> to bring training and good times to the local level, and we have set up
> online communication and registration and
> downloadable information to help that process. There are enough owners
now
> that every region could use some
> weekend Hangar events, and based on membership, there could be more than
> enough good times had by all.
>
> The problem isn't the association, that's a cop-out.
>
> The flight suit is a minor request for association FAST training for all
the
> right reasons as explained in the
> Wing/Lead Training policy letter on the web site (Formation Room). Other
> than that, if you want to host a local hangar party
> and fly-in for folks you can do so online, we can also send you an excell
> file of names and e-mails of all owners
> within your area/state/regions if you want to invite folks directly, you
> just have to ask the web manager (you can also
> see these contacts now yourself by looking in Member Locator and picking
> your region, or any region). You might be suprised
> at how many are within 2 hours of your airport...in LA we had about 10-12
if
> I recall - that's a good time had by all. I've
> been on a small team managing 50-60 every year and it's a lot less fun ;)
> Getting those 10 folks to come out, that's up to the
> hosts, not the association, and therein lies a little effort and
> coordinating.
>
> When my Yak 50 is finally with me in my new home in South Florida I plan
to
> host a small get together here
> at the museum here at Tamiami...no, it won't be ARS East either...but it
> will have lots of flour bombs, tactical form, fighting wing,
> FAST practice, hangar talk, Crud and any other good times I can load up
that
> I've missed while waiting for this darn
> airplane to get outta da garage!
>
> Don't confuse our inate ability to gripe about anything with our real
issue
> of motivating folks to join an aviation
> association that is building up to support our community in more direct
ways
> than most others...
>
> If you support it, it will continue evolving to support you. Besides
wearing
> a flight suit for FAST training and a few other
> FAST requirements to comply with the FARs and improve safety for the
> beackseater, this association is pretty much up to
> the members for direction and content.
>
> Fly safe and often,
>
> Drew
>
> ----- Original Message ----- g
> From: "Steve & Donna Hanshew" <dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinicsneral
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Donna Hanshew"
> <dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
> >
> > You know, the best time we ever had was in Hot Springs, South Dakota at
> the
> > first "Yak" gathering. We even had a T-34 among us! (yikes...)
> >
> > I always thought Fred Ihlenberg's original intent for the group was that
> > everyone just get together and have a good time for a week. That
included
> > formation flying, aerobatic box, fly outs, dinner together and whatever
> made
> > your vacation with the Yak folks a fun one. We met so many great people
> > there! And, we had such a great time. (hmmm... I don't even think we
wore
> > flight suits ALL week!)
> >
> > That's what it was all about - having fun with old friends and meeting
new
> > friends, right?
> >
> > I just wonder what Fred would think about all of this now?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Donna Hanshew
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinics
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> > >
> > > I think you missed my point Mike.
> > >
> > > I wasnt suggesting we stage a week earlier, I dont have 2 weeks
either,
> I
> > > barely have 1 week. I usually show up during the latter part of the
> week,
> > > usually Thurs Fri and Sat. And I generally have to fly commercial to
> OSH.
> > >
> > > Now If I want to participate in the mass formations, I MUST stage out
in
> > the
> > > boonies, if I want to enjoy the activities at the event and stay local
> to
> > > the event, I CANT fly with you guys. And if I fly commercial to OSH, I
> may
> > > as well be a T-34 guy as far as you all are concerned. Last year I
> > searched
> > > high and low to just say hello to you guys, and never found you.
> > >
> > > You arent providing training for FNG's, so my question was, "Why must
> you
> > > fly so many sorties, which requires you to stage out of somewhere
else?"
> > > Regarding my comparison to the other clubs, I was merely tying to
point
> > out
> > > that they stay local AND fly in the mass formations. Is RPA's
attendance
> > at
> > > S&F and OSH strictly to fly in the show?
> > >
> > > If it is true that the majority of RPA members prefer to stay off
field,
> > > then my point is moot. Is this in fact the case? Most people show up
> cause
> > > they have no choice if they want to go to this event as an RPA member.
> > Have
> > > we ever asked if this is what people want? We have a lot of new
members,
> > > maybe we should ask. I saw a lot of CJ's and Yaks this year at S&F
that
> > > didnt stage with you guys. Maybe we'd have greater participation in
this
> > org
> > > if we were all at the same place. I was the only Jet that showed up at
> > > Winterhaven, and that didnt work out very well at all. Should I
organise
> > Jet
> > > gatherings separate from the Yak and CJ gatherings at these 2 venues?
> > Should
> > > the Wilga and IAR guys do their own thing? How about the Yak 18T or
the
> > Acro
> > > guys, do they create their own agendas? Kinda defeats the purpose of a
> RPA
> > > being all inclusive, might as well have different clubs. Did we make a
> > > mistake in changing from YPA to RPA? Do we want to be mainly a
formation
> > > club for CJ's and Yak 52's? These arent bad things, but I think that
we
> > need
> > > to be clear of our mission.
> > >
> > > I just organised a BFM clinic here at Leeward Air Ranch over Memorial
> Day
> > > weekend, when I mentioned it on the yak-list all I got was a bunch of
> flak
> > > from several members. I then limited my communication to those folks
who
> > > were interested in participating, and we had a great SAFE time. I have
> > > participated in just about every formation clinic that has staged in
my
> > > area. I have had numerous conversations with several people regarding
> how
> > > you can improve the clubs website. I dont think my participation in
the
> > club
> > > is the issue here. But if the answer to any of my concerns is to just
go
> > out
> > > and do it myself, then whats the point of belonging to RPA. At some
> point
> > > there needs to be a group conscience. The last time we voted on
anything
> > was
> > > for the name change.
> > >
> > > For me, these 2 yearly events are to go and have fun with our fellow
> > pilots
> > > and congregate at a central location which to me is either the S&F or
> OSH
> > > airports. Formation flying is only part of the fun. I want to fly in
the
> > > mass formations, I also want to walk around the place and see the
sites,
> > eat
> > > the food, do some shopping, and hang out with all the other warbird
> > people.
> > > The way it is organised currently, if you dont stage out of the remote
> > > field, then for all intents and purposes you arent part of RPA during
> that
> > > event. And if you show up at the remote field with something other
than
> a
> > > Yak 52 or a CJ, then you are just a visitor. To just tell me that if I
> > dont
> > > want to fly formation I should just go stay where I want, is
tantamount
> to
> > > telling me to go pound sand.
> > >
> > > Bottom line, I feel that the spirit of RPA is completely lost at these
2
> > > great events. This may be the only chance most of us have to get
> together
> > > with our fellow members. I dont know how many RPA members there are
out
> > > there who do not own Yak 52's or CJ's and who even care if they get to
> > hang
> > > out with the membership during these events. If this is a small
number,
> > and
> > > the majority of the membership prefers the status quo, then I'll shut
> up,
> > > and just do my own thing. Otherwise I'd like to hear from the rest of
> the
> > > peanut gallery.
> > >
> > > Ernie
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <MFilucci@aol.com>
> > > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Yak-List: FAST clinics
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 6/13/04 7:24:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > > ernest.martinez@oracle.com writes:
> > > >
> > > > I dont understand why you cant practice 1 day from some other
airport
> > > nearby
> > > > then stage out of OSH or S&F. I just dont like the idea of spending
> > the
> > > > entire event off field.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ernie,
> > > > You have to understand that while you don't like operating out of a
> > remote
> > > > field, there are many members who prefer it. They like it because
> there
> > is
> > > no
> > > > traffic, no congestion, no waiting in line for dinner every night,
and
> > > they
> > > > can launch a sortie whenever they want to, with no fuss and no
> > convoluted
> > > taxi
> > > > and departure. Since the warbird airshow normally only takes place
on
> 3
> > of
> > > > the days, it still allows plenty of time to spend on the ground at
> > > S&F/OSH. As
> > > > I said before, no one is required to fly all or any of the warbird
> > > fly-bys --
> > > > guys do it because they like to participate.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, NATA and other signatories have a week-long session prior to
> > S&F/OSH
> > > > but the biggest complaint I have gotten in the past from our members
> is
> > > that
> > > > they don't have 2 weeks to devote to either S&F or OSH -- they are
> > > oftentimes
> > > > hard-pressed to get a full week off.
> > > >
> > > > If you want to organize a week-long practice prior to S&F or OSH
> there
> > is
> > > > nothing in this world that is stopping you -- have at it! You have
> the
> > > regional
> > > > coordinators who can provide you with contact info to help you get
> > > started.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: FAST clinics survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
I apologize for opening this can of worms. I didnt mean to turn this into an
"us vs them" debate. I was just trying to see how many people not interested
in getting training, or who may have been flying in commercial would rather
do stuff withing the confines of OSH and S&F. If I decided to go to OSH
(commercial), I would have been interested in hooking up with my fellow
members. I already have my wing patch, and I get to do plenty of fomation
flying locally. I was just asking how many people felt as I did, of a
sanctioned RPA gathering at these national events, that didnt involve
staying outside the event, but still afforded us the opportunity to fly in
the mass form if we wanted to.
Had I known this would have caused such consternation I would have just kept
my mouth shut. My apologies.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
>
> Ironically, and I mean that in the English sense, I put up the survey to
> help put some perspective on what had turned into a voluminous quantity of
> email on this subject. As Wolf Blitzer says every night on CNN "This is
not
> a scientific poll and certainly may not reflect reality".
>
> The fact that the poll itself has sparked even more discussion would, if I
> were part of the management, cause me to stand back and ask myself why
this
> is such an inflammatory subject. But, I am not, so I wont.
>
> I did try to go to the RPA poll site and found that I could not log on. I
> tried to be renotified of my login and was told that the site had no idea
> who I was. Not defeated I searched through my old emails to find a past
> notification of my credentials, Ha I found them, I tried them :(((( no
joy.
> I have sent a mail to Deon (hint). Now I am no conspiracy theorist but....
> Ernie too ?
>
> Now I set up this poll as I REALLY was interested in what the general
> feeling was out there. What I have discovered is what we all know if we
just
> think about this for two seconds.
>
> PEOPLE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT.
>
> Drew's best point and one which is probably the best one made in this
whole
> list of mails is the following:-
>
> IF YOU WANT LOCAL EVENTS, ORGANIZE THEM.
>
> The best events I have attended are the ones where an email on Wednesday
or
> a phone call on Friday results in a gathering somewhere.
>
> I think if RPA had a mechanism to call something an RPA event, after the
> event, there would be a lot more of them. What I am saying is that if we
go
> out this weekend and it turns into an event where meaningful and
substantial
> training is given and received then, although this gathering were intended
> as informal a lot of good work was done.
>
> As such, flights taken, instruction given should be recognized. There are
> very many of us who live our flying lives day to day and cannot commit to
> days, weeks, months in advance and we have to take our chances as we can.
>
> This was Ernie's initial point that he could not commit to long formal
> training sessions, there are those that can, and more power to you, but
> there are also a LARGE number that do this all in a less formal fashion.
If
> I were interpreting these results, which I am not, I might conclude that
> this other group, lets call them headless chickens, might like to have
> training and accomplishment recognized. Trying to work through a FAST
patch
> when you cannot commit to "sanctioned" events is tough.
>
> If I call a few buddies and we get together this weekend and one of the
guys
> there is a flight lead and another is able to give back seats and we do
some
> quality training that would qualify it should be recognized.
>
> House coordinates not included to avoid cluster bomb attacks.
>
> Gus Fraser
> Headless Chicken.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> MFilucci@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 6/15/04 7:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> fraseg@comcast.net writes:
>
> So many things in life are bogus but we still accept them :)
>
> Mike I just did this because the conversation was just going around in
> circles.
>
> If your figures are right that just 10% of members go then do you not see
> that as a problem ?
>
> Maybe, just maybe, knowing what the masses want may make attendance more
> palatable ?
>
> I could be wrong though, I usually am.
>
>
> Gus,
>
> I don't think you are wrong at all in your intent, I just want the survey,
> like any instrument of this sort, to be useful.
>
> Like many of our guys, I have been going to OSH for many, many years.
I've
> camped, stayed in the dorms, stayed in hotels, etc. If I were a first-time
> attendee I wouldn't think of staying anywhere else but at OSH. Having been
> there
> so many times now, I wouldn't think of staying anywhere but MTW.
>
> Like anything else, there are positive aspects to either choice and each
of
>
> us has to weigh the factors and decide accordingly.
>
> People don't participate at OSH for any number of reasons and I suspect it
> really has nothing to do with where we stage our training -- it is much
more
> likely to do with the more mundane facts of life: getting the time off
from
> work, getting the time away from family responsibilities, convincing a
> non-aviation oriented wife to go to OSH for vacation yet another year,
> having the
> money to make the trip, etc. The 10% number should not surprize anyone.
> Every
> association/organization I have ever been affiliated with, from
homeowners
> associations, to unions, to the RPA, etc., always has a certain small
> percentage
> of active people that you see at most of the events. The greater
percentage
> are chronic no-shows -- that's just a fact of life.
>
> Gus, you are a creative, talented guy and I don't want you to stop
> contributing your energy to the good of the cause. Surveys are very tricky
> instruments. If not phrased correctly, the results can reflect an outcome
> that has no
> meaning to the intended question. That is my only concern here.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | FAST clinics survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
In a message dated 6/16/04 7:25:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fraseg@comcast.net writes:
What I am saying is that if we go
out this weekend and it turns into an event where meaningful and substantial
training is given and received then, although this gathering were intended
as informal a lot of good work was done.
This is exactly what happens in the NE region on an ongoing basis. Someone
scopes out the weather -- it looks promising -- emails are sent out, phone
calls are made, and voila, a mini-clinic takes place. There is something for
everyone witin this loose association of pilots with diverse needs and tastes.
All you have to do is be a little proactive to make it happen. Point well
taken, Gus.
Mike
Message 9
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| Subject: | FAST clinics survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
In a message dated 6/16/04 8:48:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ernest.martinez@oracle.com writes:
I was just asking how many people felt as I did, of a
sanctioned RPA gathering at these national events, that didnt involve
staying outside the event, but still afforded us the opportunity to fly in
the mass form if we wanted to.
There's nothing wrong with a little healthy debate, it gets people thinking
and usually generates some good ideas.
Mike
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Graeme I am trying to send you some information on a fellow in Australia and the
possibility of sharing a container from Beijing. The emails are bouncing.
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Dave Laird <dave@davelaird.com>
test
Message 12
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| Subject: | You`ve got 1 VoiceMessage! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Beware!! this is the W32.Erkez.B@mm virus
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Russell Johnson
Subject: Yak-List: You`ve got 1 VoiceMessage!
--> Yak-List message posted by: Russell Johnson <entec1@pld.com>
Dear Customer!
You`ve got 1 VoiceMessage from voicemessage.com website!
You can listen your Virtual VoiceMessage at the following link:
http://virt.voicemessage.com/index.listen.php2=35affv
or by clicking the attached link.
Send VoiceMessage! Try our new virtual VoiceMessage Empire!
Best regards: SNAF.Team (R).
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: FAST clinics survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
Folks,
I appreciate members voicing their desires and suggestions in a constructive
manner, we all benefit from such input.
Last year we had an RV parking slot provided by the EAA in the warbird
parking lot at Osh, I realized this was a new thing and "unknown" to many of
our folks, but regardless it was a highly underutilized facility - and
partly because our ops were "transient" to Osh. Still, I hung a banner on
the RV ("RedStar Ramp"). The RV was provided by Walt Fricke.
It is obvious to me that if we are more than a Formation Club, if we can
generate good times and "value" for folks of all interests who own and
operate Eastern Block Aircraft (EBA), that should be most visible at the
largest general aviation gathering in the country; Oshkosh. If folks of our
breed didn't show up, then I would say it's just another airshow, but the
reality is we likely do have many EBA owners who are in the shadows, and
have a lot in common; like my now badly leaking gear retract cylinders,
recently gummed-up air system, stretched brake cable and...
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> I apologize for opening this can of worms. I didnt mean to turn this into
an
> "us vs them" debate. I was just trying to see how many people not
interested
> in getting training, or who may have been flying in commercial would
rather
> do stuff withing the confines of OSH and S&F. If I decided to go to OSH
> (commercial), I would have been interested in hooking up with my fellow
> members. I already have my wing patch, and I get to do plenty of fomation
> flying locally. I was just asking how many people felt as I did, of a
> sanctioned RPA gathering at these national events, that didnt involve
> staying outside the event, but still afforded us the opportunity to fly in
> the mass form if we wanted to.
>
>
> Had I known this would have caused such consternation I would have just
kept
> my mouth shut. My apologies.
>
> Ernie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
> >
> > Ironically, and I mean that in the English sense, I put up the survey to
> > help put some perspective on what had turned into a voluminous quantity
of
> > email on this subject. As Wolf Blitzer says every night on CNN "This is
> not
> > a scientific poll and certainly may not reflect reality".
> >
> > The fact that the poll itself has sparked even more discussion would, if
I
> > were part of the management, cause me to stand back and ask myself why
> this
> > is such an inflammatory subject. But, I am not, so I wont.
> >
> > I did try to go to the RPA poll site and found that I could not log on.
I
> > tried to be renotified of my login and was told that the site had no
idea
> > who I was. Not defeated I searched through my old emails to find a past
> > notification of my credentials, Ha I found them, I tried them :(((( no
> joy.
> > I have sent a mail to Deon (hint). Now I am no conspiracy theorist
but....
> > Ernie too ?
> >
> > Now I set up this poll as I REALLY was interested in what the general
> > feeling was out there. What I have discovered is what we all know if we
> just
> > think about this for two seconds.
> >
> > PEOPLE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT.
> >
> > Drew's best point and one which is probably the best one made in this
> whole
> > list of mails is the following:-
> >
> > IF YOU WANT LOCAL EVENTS, ORGANIZE THEM.
> >
> > The best events I have attended are the ones where an email on Wednesday
> or
> > a phone call on Friday results in a gathering somewhere.
> >
> > I think if RPA had a mechanism to call something an RPA event, after the
> > event, there would be a lot more of them. What I am saying is that if we
> go
> > out this weekend and it turns into an event where meaningful and
> substantial
> > training is given and received then, although this gathering were
intended
> > as informal a lot of good work was done.
> >
> > As such, flights taken, instruction given should be recognized. There
are
> > very many of us who live our flying lives day to day and cannot commit
to
> > days, weeks, months in advance and we have to take our chances as we
can.
> >
> > This was Ernie's initial point that he could not commit to long formal
> > training sessions, there are those that can, and more power to you, but
> > there are also a LARGE number that do this all in a less formal fashion.
> If
> > I were interpreting these results, which I am not, I might conclude that
> > this other group, lets call them headless chickens, might like to have
> > training and accomplishment recognized. Trying to work through a FAST
> patch
> > when you cannot commit to "sanctioned" events is tough.
> >
> > If I call a few buddies and we get together this weekend and one of the
> guys
> > there is a flight lead and another is able to give back seats and we do
> some
> > quality training that would qualify it should be recognized.
> >
> > House coordinates not included to avoid cluster bomb attacks.
> >
> > Gus Fraser
> > Headless Chicken.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> > MFilucci@aol.com
> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Yak-List: FAST clinics survey
> >
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 6/15/04 7:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > fraseg@comcast.net writes:
> >
> > So many things in life are bogus but we still accept them :)
> >
> > Mike I just did this because the conversation was just going around in
> > circles.
> >
> > If your figures are right that just 10% of members go then do you not
see
> > that as a problem ?
> >
> > Maybe, just maybe, knowing what the masses want may make attendance
more
> > palatable ?
> >
> > I could be wrong though, I usually am.
> >
> >
> > Gus,
> >
> > I don't think you are wrong at all in your intent, I just want the
survey,
> > like any instrument of this sort, to be useful.
> >
> > Like many of our guys, I have been going to OSH for many, many years.
> I've
> > camped, stayed in the dorms, stayed in hotels, etc. If I were a
first-time
> > attendee I wouldn't think of staying anywhere else but at OSH. Having
been
> > there
> > so many times now, I wouldn't think of staying anywhere but MTW.
> >
> > Like anything else, there are positive aspects to either choice and each
> of
> >
> > us has to weigh the factors and decide accordingly.
> >
> > People don't participate at OSH for any number of reasons and I suspect
it
> > really has nothing to do with where we stage our training -- it is much
> more
> > likely to do with the more mundane facts of life: getting the time off
> from
> > work, getting the time away from family responsibilities, convincing a
> > non-aviation oriented wife to go to OSH for vacation yet another year,
> > having the
> > money to make the trip, etc. The 10% number should not surprize anyone.
> > Every
> > association/organization I have ever been affiliated with, from
> homeowners
> > associations, to unions, to the RPA, etc., always has a certain small
> > percentage
> > of active people that you see at most of the events. The greater
> percentage
> > are chronic no-shows -- that's just a fact of life.
> >
> > Gus, you are a creative, talented guy and I don't want you to stop
> > contributing your energy to the good of the cause. Surveys are very
tricky
> > instruments. If not phrased correctly, the results can reflect an
outcome
> > that has no
> > meaning to the intended question. That is my only concern here.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | A good friend was lost today. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Today we lost a good friend. Vern Hupp was killed today in his AT6, He
crashed shortly after leaving the Oroville WA airport, no further
information at this time. He will be sourly missed by all that knew him.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: A good friend was lost today. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Drew Blahnick" <drewblahnick@hotmail.com>
Horrible loss - there are no words for this right now, he will be very
missed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Subject: Yak-List: A good friend was lost today.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
>
> Today we lost a good friend. Vern Hupp was killed today in his AT6, He
> crashed shortly after leaving the Oroville WA airport, no further
> information at this time. He will be sourly missed by all that knew him.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
>
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
I am numb.... Our thoughts and prayers go out to the Hupp family.
Barry
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