Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:32 AM - Brake Cables (Frank Haertlein)
2. 07:03 AM - Dynon Avionics Stuff (Jeff Linebaugh)
3. 07:14 AM - Re: Brake Cables (Jorgen Nielsen)
4. 07:31 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- (Ernie)
5. 07:45 AM - Carb ice (Barry Hancock)
6. 07:51 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Brian Lloyd)
7. 08:38 AM - Re: Carb ice (Kevin Pilling)
8. 08:44 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Ernie)
9. 08:48 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Francis Butler)
10. 09:15 AM - Re: Carb ice (Pete Mirams (E-mail 3))
11. 09:18 AM - plugs (Jerry Painter)
12. 10:35 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Brian Lloyd)
13. 11:05 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (FamilyGage@aol.com)
14. 11:40 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Ernie)
15. 11:47 AM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Ernie)
16. 12:22 PM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (RV_8 Pilot)
17. 01:21 PM - Re: plugs (Doug Sapp)
18. 01:27 PM - Re: plugs (Rick Basiliere)
19. 02:17 PM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Gus Fraser)
20. 02:34 PM - Re: Yak and CJ mods (FamilyGage@aol.com)
21. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Yak and CJ mods (ByronMFox@aol.com)
22. 05:12 PM - Engine Problem (Frank Haertlein)
23. 05:36 PM - Re: Engine Problem (JGibson912@aol.com)
24. 05:52 PM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (jay reiter)
25. 06:04 PM - Engine problem (Frank Haertlein)
26. 06:08 PM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Gus Fraser)
27. 06:17 PM - smoke oil pump (jay reiter)
28. 06:21 PM - Re: Engine problem (Ernie)
29. 06:31 PM - E-Mail Address (Jim Selby)
30. 06:42 PM - Dynon Avionics Stuff (Frank Haertlein)
31. 07:19 PM - Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
32. 07:34 PM - Sorry (jay reiter)
33. 07:53 PM - Flojet (jay reiter)
34. 07:59 PM - Dynon Avionics Stuff (Frank Haertlein)
35. 08:06 PM - Re: Sorry (Gus Fraser)
36. 08:07 PM - Dynon Avionics Stuff (Frank Haertlein)
37. 09:32 PM - plugs (Joe Howse)
38. 11:07 PM - CJ Website...please pardon this proud owner... (Jeff Linebaugh)
Message 1
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pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Tom,
I replaced my brake cable also. Went to a motorcycle shop and bought the
Teflon lined housing and thicker, stronger cable. I was able to reuse
the original ends too! Operates smooth as glass now. I'm wondering now
why I didn't do it a long time ago!
Frank
N911OM
YAK-52
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
Subject: Yak-List: Brake lines and Nanchangs
--> Yak-List message posted by: tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
Installed a new stainless brake cable and replaced the "housing" with
new. A good competition bike shop has the good housing (you need about
6'). It has a teflon liner for the cable to slide in.
Amazing difference. Easy to install.
It's like having power assist brakes!
I'm not suggesting you install bicycle parts on any airplane though.
Naturally I removed it after installation and put back in the old cruddy
Russian one. . . .
Looking for Nanchang models, 1/72 scale is fine.
Contact me off list if you have a source.
Tj
tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 2
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| Subject: | Dynon Avionics Stuff |
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jeff Linebaugh <jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
Brian and Hal....
I have been looking at the Blue Mountain and Dynon stuff too...
Why did you give the thumbs down to the Dynon set up? I am not looking to spend
big buck on a large display...just something to give me heading and attitude.
The Blue Mountain EFIS Light and the Dynon unit look comparable to me...but
I am not a "sparky"... can you shed some light on why the Blue Mountain EFIS
Light would be superior to the Dynon?
Thanks,
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Either of you folks prepared to give the list the low down on how it was
done?
In other words, any tricks that may be required to get to the ends,
which end to fit first, any trouble getting length right, adjustment,
etc.
My tension adjuster on the stick has snapped in half - so need to
replace mine. Should also have been done a long time ago!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank
Haertlein
Subject: Yak-List: Brake Cables
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
--> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Tom,
I replaced my brake cable also. Went to a motorcycle shop and bought the
Teflon lined housing and thicker, stronger cable. I was able to reuse
the original ends too! Operates smooth as glass now. I'm wondering now
why I didn't do it a long time ago! Frank N911OM YAK-52
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
Subject: Yak-List: Brake lines and Nanchangs
--> Yak-List message posted by: tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
Installed a new stainless brake cable and replaced the "housing" with
new. A good competition bike shop has the good housing (you need about
6'). It has a teflon liner for the cable to slide in.
Amazing difference. Easy to install.
It's like having power assist brakes!
I'm not suggesting you install bicycle parts on any airplane though.
Naturally I removed it after installation and put back in the old cruddy
Russian one. . . .
Looking for Nanchang models, 1/72 scale is fine.
Contact me off list if you have a source.
Tj
tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff pts rule name |
description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Well its obvious that if you spend more moeny you get better stuff right???
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------
-------
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Jeff Linebaugh
<jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
>
> Brian and Hal....
>
> I have been looking at the Blue Mountain and Dynon stuff too...
>
> Why did you give the thumbs down to the Dynon set up? I am not looking to
spend big buck on a large display...just something to give me heading and
attitude. The Blue Mountain EFIS Light and the Dynon unit look comparable
to me...but I am not a "sparky"... can you shed some light on why the Blue
Mountain EFIS Light would be superior to the Dynon?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff Linebaugh
>
> jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
>
>
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
On Jun 22, 2004, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> Someone said it's most likely carb ice but the air was clear and
> visibility unlimited so I'm not altogether convinced.
I am not aware (though doesn't mean it can't happen) of an M14 ever
getting carb ice, especially in those conditions. Vladimir Yastremski
says that carb ice is highly unlikely with this engine as well.
FYI I have a systems monitor that includes OAT. There is usually a
15-20 C difference between OAT and Carb Temp, with Carb Temp being
higher.
FWIW,
Barry
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Jeff Linebaugh wrote:
> I have been looking at the Blue Mountain and Dynon stuff too...
>
> Why did you give the thumbs down to the Dynon set up? I am not
> looking to spend big buck on a large display...just something to give
> me heading and attitude. The Blue Mountain EFIS Light and the Dynon
> unit look comparable to me...but I am not a "sparky"... can you shed
> some light on why the Blue Mountain EFIS Light would be superior to
> the Dynon?
In my case, it was mostly what I was unable to find out about the Dynon. They
were not particularly forthcoming about how they make their system work, what
gyros they use, algorithms, etc. Add to that how long it took them to come out
with a working system and the minuscule size of the display and I just didn't
get a good feeling.
Conversely Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics openly exchanged email, invited
me down, picked me up at the airport, and then spent several hours going into
detail of how he has designed and built his units. I know what he has used
and how he has used it. This gave me a much higher degree of confidence in Blue
Mountain.
I also spoke at length with a shop that sells and installs the various EFIS systems
for experimental aircraft. The gentleman who runs the shop spoke highly
of Grand Rapids, Blue Mountain, and Chelton. (Actually he spoke positively about
others but I forget which ones at this point in time.) He did speak negatively
about the Dynon EFIS-D10. I feel this is important as he has field experience
with the various devices.
Knowing how much the good gyros cost, I don't see how the Dynon EFIS-D10 can have
good gyros. It probably works but it isn't an instrument I would trust to
fly IFR behind. And what good is a backup instrument if you can't trust it to
be right?
OTOH, if you plan to have a VFR-only airplane that does have the ability to keep
you right-side up for a descent through clouds in an emergency, maybe the Dynon
is sufficient. Back it up with standard pitot-static instruments and a needle
ball and you can survive a failure of the primary EFIS.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Kevin Pilling" <pilling.k@btconnect.com>
FYI carb ice on M14P's is quite a regular event in the UK's prevailing
moisture laden atmospheric conditions...usually on the ground during warm up
but also far more dangerously during throttled back descents to land !
If the air is moist ...grab a load of heat on finals.
I've not heard of any instances of ice forming whilst cruising.
kp
of exploding Yak 50 'fame'
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower@cox.net>
To:
<yak-list@matronics.com.pts.rule.name.description.----.---------------------
-.------------------------------------------->
Subject: Yak-List: Carb ice
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2004, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> > Someone said it's most likely carb ice but the air was clear and
> > visibility unlimited so I'm not altogether convinced.
>
> I am not aware (though doesn't mean it can't happen) of an M14 ever
> getting carb ice, especially in those conditions. Vladimir Yastremski
> says that carb ice is highly unlikely with this engine as well.
>
> FYI I have a systems monitor that includes OAT. There is usually a
> 15-20 C difference between OAT and Carb Temp, with Carb Temp being
> higher.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Barry
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros. The higer end units like
Chelton etc use the CrossBow accelorometer units, These are solid state
devices with micro springs and pressure sensors to determine G in the
various planes. These accelerometers along with software simulate the
functions of mechanical gyros. I doubt there is much difference between
these systems except maybe for the CrossBow units which are probably more
precise. My neighbor here is the designer and manufature of the PC Efis,
which is the guy who has the EFIS functionality on PDA's. He uses the same
accelrometer units as every one else. Its mainly the software that
determines how well the units function and this has no bearing on unit size.
I've seen both the Dynon and Bluemountain units installed in Jets such as
L-39's and I've heard both good and bad about the Blue Mountain units, and
have not heard any complaints about the Dynon units. I've been watching
Dynon now for about 3 years since they debuted their first product at S&F
and I have been impressed with their progress. Thye have made small but
deliberate upgrads to their core product, whereas Blue Mountain has been
sprouting new products every year which tells me that their focus is
fragmented.
If I was on to a good thing I probably wouldnt be telling anyone who called
me on the phone all my trade secrets either.
The Dynon unit can be so small because they have limited their functionality
to the basics; attitude, pitot and heading information, where the Blue
mountain units do everything but make coffee. This include PFD, moving map,
autopilot, HSI, let me know what else I've missed. To me, these are more
things to go wrong. If one is concerned about all the functionality of a
Garmin 430 being a single point of failure, one should really be concerned
with Blue Mountain also.
I really like the Efis lite unit, but I would want them in pairs so I can
have one dedicated to being and HSI while the other is dedicated as a PFD.
Unfortunatly they are around $4500 a piece, and this is more than I would
want to spend for my airplanes which I only fly VFR. Look at the Cirrus
SR22's, they have all glass panels but are still required to have backup
mechanical gyros. If I were flying hard IFR in my airplanes with these units
I would want the same. I would hate to have a fuse pop, while in a 4000ft
could layer, on approach to minimums.
I'm putting the Dynon unit in my L-29. From the installations I've seen and
the reports from their owners, this is the most bang for the buck, all
techno babble aside.
Jon Boede, dont you have one in your ZA????
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
> Jeff Linebaugh wrote:
>
> > I have been looking at the Blue Mountain and Dynon stuff too...
> >
> > Why did you give the thumbs down to the Dynon set up? I am not
> > looking to spend big buck on a large display...just something to give
> > me heading and attitude. The Blue Mountain EFIS Light and the Dynon
> > unit look comparable to me...but I am not a "sparky"... can you shed
> > some light on why the Blue Mountain EFIS Light would be superior to
> > the Dynon?
>
> In my case, it was mostly what I was unable to find out about the Dynon.
They were not particularly forthcoming about how they make their system
work, what gyros they use, algorithms, etc. Add to that how long it took
them to come out with a working system and the minuscule size of the display
and I just didn't get a good feeling.
>
> Conversely Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics openly exchanged email,
invited me down, picked me up at the airport, and then spent several hours
going into detail of how he has designed and built his units. I know what
he has used and how he has used it. This gave me a much higher degree of
confidence in Blue Mountain.
>
> I also spoke at length with a shop that sells and installs the various
EFIS systems for experimental aircraft. The gentleman who runs the shop
spoke highly of Grand Rapids, Blue Mountain, and Chelton. (Actually he spoke
positively about others but I forget which ones at this point in time.) He
did speak negatively about the Dynon EFIS-D10. I feel this is important as
he has field experience with the various devices.
>
> Knowing how much the good gyros cost, I don't see how the Dynon EFIS-D10
can have good gyros. It probably works but it isn't an instrument I would
trust to fly IFR behind. And what good is a backup instrument if you can't
trust it to be right?
>
> OTOH, if you plan to have a VFR-only airplane that does have the ability
to keep you right-side up for a descent through clouds in an emergency,
maybe the Dynon is sufficient. Back it up with standard pitot-static
instruments and a needle ball and you can survive a failure of the primary
EFIS.
>
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
>
> There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
> A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Francis Butler <francis_butler@msn.com>
I am flying with a Dynon in my RV8. Have 50 hours on the unit now. Thus
far it has worked great. I do not have the external sensor for the magnetic
direction readout so that part is unreliable. Everything else has been spot
on. The attitude indication is very smooth and doesn't loose a beat when
doing aerobatics (basic loops/rolls). Altitude readout and airspeed
readout are also very accurate. For 2 grand it can't be beat, but I
wouldn't use it for an IFR primary instrument.
F. Butler
Yak 50
RV-8
On 6/23/04 9:50 AM, "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
> Jeff Linebaugh wrote:
>
>> I have been looking at the Blue Mountain and Dynon stuff too...
>>
>> Why did you give the thumbs down to the Dynon set up? I am not
>> looking to spend big buck on a large display...just something to give
>> me heading and attitude. The Blue Mountain EFIS Light and the Dynon
>> unit look comparable to me...but I am not a "sparky"... can you shed
>> some light on why the Blue Mountain EFIS Light would be superior to
>> the Dynon?
>
> In my case, it was mostly what I was unable to find out about the Dynon. They
> were not particularly forthcoming about how they make their system work, what
> gyros they use, algorithms, etc. Add to that how long it took them to come
> out with a working system and the minuscule size of the display and I just
> didn't get a good feeling.
>
> Conversely Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics openly exchanged email,
> invited me down, picked me up at the airport, and then spent several hours
> going into detail of how he has designed and built his units. I know what he
> has used and how he has used it. This gave me a much higher degree of
> confidence in Blue Mountain.
>
> I also spoke at length with a shop that sells and installs the various EFIS
> systems for experimental aircraft. The gentleman who runs the shop spoke
> highly of Grand Rapids, Blue Mountain, and Chelton. (Actually he spoke
> positively about others but I forget which ones at this point in time.) He
> did speak negatively about the Dynon EFIS-D10. I feel this is important as he
> has field experience with the various devices.
>
> Knowing how much the good gyros cost, I don't see how the Dynon EFIS-D10 can
> have good gyros. It probably works but it isn't an instrument I would trust
> to fly IFR behind. And what good is a backup instrument if you can't trust it
> to be right?
>
> OTOH, if you plan to have a VFR-only airplane that does have the ability to
> keep you right-side up for a descent through clouds in an emergency, maybe the
> Dynon is sufficient. Back it up with standard pitot-static instruments and a
> needle ball and you can survive a failure of the primary EFIS.
>
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Pete Mirams (E-mail 3)" <pete@yak52.fsnet.co.uk>
We have suffered regular carb ice problems in the UK whilst on the ground
and at OAT's of 5c or less. Got caught once with an ever increasing idle RPM
whilst taxying. When it got to the point where the RPM would not go below
60% I grabbed the carb heat and a few seconds later things returned to
normal.
Just one problem though...how do you select carb heat in flight? It is just
about impossible to move the damn lever at cruise speeds!
Regards
Pete
G-CBRL (83-3708)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Pilling
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Carb ice
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Kevin Pilling" <pilling.k@btconnect.com>
FYI carb ice on M14P's is quite a regular event in the UK's prevailing
moisture laden atmospheric conditions...usually on the ground during warm up
but also far more dangerously during throttled back descents to land !
If the air is moist ...grab a load of heat on finals.
I've not heard of any instances of ice forming whilst cruising.
kp
of exploding Yak 50 'fame'
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower@cox.net>
To:
<yak-list@matronics.com.pts.rule.name.description.----.---------------------
-.------------------------------------------->
Subject: Yak-List: Carb ice
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2004, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> > Someone said it's most likely carb ice but the air was clear and
> > visibility unlimited so I'm not altogether convinced.
>
> I am not aware (though doesn't mean it can't happen) of an M14 ever
> getting carb ice, especially in those conditions. Vladimir Yastremski
> says that carb ice is highly unlikely with this engine as well.
>
> FYI I have a systems monitor that includes OAT. There is usually a
> 15-20 C difference between OAT and Carb Temp, with Carb Temp being
> higher.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Barry
>
>
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
Message 11
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pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Rick,
I've run both Russian and Chinese plugs for years with no trouble, never
talked to anyone who'd had trouble.
The other night I was talking with Ross Granley, who's just about finished
getting his Yak-18T ready for the air show season (that's right--he does a
terrific routine in an -18T and will be performing this weekend in
Bellingham, WA). He said he needed some adapters so he could run Champion
plugs. I asked why and mentioned I'd never had any trouble with commie
plugs. He told me he had blown the guts out of several and didn't enjoy the
experience of having a flaming geyser under the cowling.
I guess if you run at continuous high power things may be different than in
civilian service. YMMV.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-258-4522/425-876-0865
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0cs5r/index.html
Time: 07:16:41 AM PST US
From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Yak-List: Spark plugs
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere"
--> <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Hello;
Does anyone have or know of access to spark plugs for the M14P?
Champion, Russian, Chinese I really don't care, should I? Champions in now.
Thanks a lot. Sukhoi thanks you too. Ricky B
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Ernie wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros.
No, they use solid-state rate gyros. You need both the accelerometers and the
gyros or you can't identify orientation. In a 1-G field you can tell where the
gravity vector is but as soon as you are in accelerated flight your accelerometers
no longer tell you your orientation, hence the need for the gyros.
> The higer end units like
> Chelton etc use the CrossBow accelorometer units, These are solid state
> devices with micro springs and pressure sensors to determine G in the
> various planes.
Actually, there are two types of solid-state rate gyros out there. One is the
vibrating beam type preferred by Murata. The other is the vibrating fork type
which detects rotation by coriolis effect. Systron-Donner has the latter. In
fact, they have a really nice balanced fork design with two forks working in
opposition that cancel out a number of errors.
> These accelerometers along with software simulate the
> functions of mechanical gyros.
They don't have to simulate. The output of the gyro is a signal that is proportional
to the rate of rotation in the plane of the gyro. You have to integrate
rate to get displacement and you need something to establish "down" to "erect"
the gyro platform since the rate gyros have no information about where they
started. The accelerometers give you that. Blue Mountain actually gets hints
on orientation from the three-axis manetometer which is set up to provide flux-gate
functionality and they get information from the GPS sensor. All this
gets stirred together to produce a self-correction and self-calibrating AHRS/IRP.
> I doubt there is much difference between
> these systems except maybe for the CrossBow units which are probably more
> precise.
Actually, Crossbow has two units. The more expensive unit uses the Systron-Donner
rate gyros. (Actually I get a kick out of this as Crossbow and Systron-Donner
are sort of competitors. This says something about Crowsbow's own rate gyros.)
These are the same gyros that Blue Mountain uses in the EFIS-1 and EFIS-lite.
The difference is that Greg chose to build his own inertial reference
platform so it is a cut above the run-of-the-mill. The lower cost AHRS from Crossbow
is not all that great.
BTW, when I started to design my own EFIS/AHRS/IRP about 6 years ago, I was going
to use the Systron-Donner units too. But they were too expensive and I couldn't
find a good sunglight-readable LCD at the time so I dropped the concept.
> My neighbor here is the designer and manufature of the PC Efis,
> which is the guy who has the EFIS functionality on PDA's. He uses the same
> accelrometer units as every one else. Its mainly the software that
> determines how well the units function and this has no bearing on unit size.
There is some truth to this but you still need the gyros.
> I've seen both the Dynon and Bluemountain units installed in Jets such as
> L-39's and I've heard both good and bad about the Blue Mountain units, and
> have not heard any complaints about the Dynon units.
Blue Mountain ended up with a fair number of complaints, virtually all of which
have been traced to improper installation. People don't seem to know how to
properly crimp wires. Greg Richter told me this (which I took with a grain of
salt) but it was independently verified by the installer I talked to. Since
he sells several of the EFIS systems and has no particular axe to grind, I think
the assessment is valid. When you have one box doing everything, you have
to get all the wires right.
> I've been watching
> Dynon now for about 3 years since they debuted their first product at S&F
> and I have been impressed with their progress. Thye have made small but
> deliberate upgrads to their core product, whereas Blue Mountain has been
> sprouting new products every year which tells me that their focus is
> fragmented.
Well, as someone who has been watching both carefully I don't completely agree.
Greg was a bit optimistic when he bit off the autopilot project. That was a
real can-of-worms. Building a good autopilot is a black art. I think Grand
Rapids got it right to team up with Digitrack to do the autopilot.
> If I was on to a good thing I probably wouldnt be telling anyone who called
> me on the phone all my trade secrets either.
What secrets? These things function by the laws of physics. Opening the kimono
so that others can verify how things are done seems a good way to do things.
Hiding the way the system works doesn't fill me with any sort of confidence.
Would you buy an airplane if the owner wouldn't uncowl it for you or let you
look at the logbooks?
> The Dynon unit can be so small because they have limited their functionality
> to the basics; attitude, pitot and heading information, where the Blue
> mountain units do everything but make coffee. This include PFD, moving map,
> autopilot, HSI, let me know what else I've missed. To me, these are more
> things to go wrong. If one is concerned about all the functionality of a
> Garmin 430 being a single point of failure, one should really be concerned
> with Blue Mountain also.
Yes, that is a potential problem. OTOH the only difference between providing these
functions and not providing them is software and processor horsepower. In
terms of MTBF, the hardware is the same, modulo the quality of the components.
So your system MTBF is likely to be lower with many boxes instead of just
one. OTOH, when that one fails you are in deep kim-chee.
See, I need attitude, heading, and air-data information (Dynon and Blue Mountain).
I also need engine instrumentation, nav display, moving map, etc. I get
that with EFIS-1. I don't really care if it is a single point of failure because
I am not going to be flying hard IFR. It will get me on the ground with a
pop-up IFR should the weather change. It simplifies my panel and reduces my
parts count substantially. And for $2000 more I get a full set of instruments
for the back seat.
Get what you want. My analysis tells me that the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 meets my
needs a lot better than does the Dynon. I understand how the Blue Mountain equipment
works because the designer took the time to explain it to me. Dynon
wouldn't do that when I pointedly asked questions at OSH two years ago. It was
'secret' and I didn't need to worry my pretty little head about it. BUZZZZZ
-- wrong answer.
> I really like the Efis lite unit, but I would want them in pairs so I can
> have one dedicated to being and HSI while the other is dedicated as a PFD.
> Unfortunatly they are around $4500 a piece, and this is more than I would
> want to spend for my airplanes which I only fly VFR. Look at the Cirrus
> SR22's, they have all glass panels but are still required to have backup
> mechanical gyros.
This is because the FAA doesn't really understand but hey, they make the rules.
We get to do things differently in experimental aircraft.
> If I were flying hard IFR in my airplanes with these units
> I would want the same. I would hate to have a fuse pop, while in a 4000ft
> could layer, on approach to minimums.
That is the problem. You get to make the choice. I would rather have the EFIS-lite
than the Dynon as my backup.
> I'm putting the Dynon unit in my L-29. From the installations I've seen and
> the reports from their owners, this is the most bang for the buck, all
> techno babble aside.
Your choice. I hope it works well for you.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: FamilyGage@aol.com
Gentlemen:
Since there seems to be recent discussions about YAK- CJ's IFR and panel
improvements, may I share with you what we are doing for OSH show. With a
commitment from George and Cliff Coy and Bill Austin, we have designed a maximum
effort toward what we can accomplish with the limited space available on our
existing panels.
The new Yak 52TW arrived in Swanton this spring. Cliff and I worked through
multiple panel designs with the theory of making the panel functional, easy to
read, and retain all analog instruments just in case of the failure of one
fully electronic unit.
Granted, most of our members would not desire to upgrade their panels to this
level, however, we wanted to demonstrate what can be done with extensive
planning and in spending a great deal of time with the various unit providers.
Both forward and aft cockpit panels were laser cut following the final design
on blank sheets.
It was necessary to reduce some instruments from 3 1/2 to 2 1/4 and some
engine instruments to 1 1/4 due to limited space. However, these were placed at
eye level, and are easy to read. Each instrument is individually lighted on a
separated rheostat for night flying.
The Grand Rapids EFIS was chosen after extensive research into quality
construction, features, and price. Their complete engine monitor (nine cylinder
model) was added which comes with a hand held download unit for your PC.
Garmin AT units were chosen (could be King) due to their history and factory
support.
Starting with the main panel (on mounts) we placed the Grand Rapids at the
center top position. The MX-20 MFD installed below the Grand Rapids. These two
units are fairly large and took up that available space.
Cliff designed an avionics stack mounted below the panel which is angled to
allow good vision in the forward cockpit.
This unit from top to bottom: GMA-340 audio panel; Garmin 430; SL-40 Com;
Garmin GTX330 mode S transponder; second display of Grand Rapids engine
information.
A multifunction stick grip installed in front cockpit and a headset audio
warning for unsafe gear position were installed. Jim Kimball has an excellent
oil recovery system that he uses on his Pitts Model 12 kit, to control oil
hydraulic lock, plus we added and Adel oil filter.
The plan is to complete airframe and have a Dick Jason paint job before OSH.
Hope to see you all at MTW.
If you have any questions on any of these modifications, call Cliff Coy at
GeSoCo (802)868-5633.
Go RPA,
Ray Gage
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Yea Yea, but they're all based on MEMS (Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems)
technology.
Dont get me wrong, I like the EFIS Lite, but its over twice the price of the
Dynon unit. Granted the EFIS lite has a larger display, and more
fuctionality, but if all you want is a simple PFD, the Dynon is hard to beat
for the price.
I dont even mention the grand rapids unit becuase I think its over priced
period.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
> Ernie wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> >
> > All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros.
>
> No, they use solid-state rate gyros. You need both the accelerometers and
the gyros or you can't identify orientation. In a 1-G field you can tell
where the gravity vector is but as soon as you are in accelerated flight
your accelerometers no longer tell you your orientation, hence the need for
the gyros.
>
> > The higer end units like
> > Chelton etc use the CrossBow accelorometer units, These are solid state
> > devices with micro springs and pressure sensors to determine G in the
> > various planes.
>
> Actually, there are two types of solid-state rate gyros out there. One is
the vibrating beam type preferred by Murata. The other is the vibrating
fork type which detects rotation by coriolis effect. Systron-Donner has the
latter. In fact, they have a really nice balanced fork design with two
forks working in opposition that cancel out a number of errors.
>
> > These accelerometers along with software simulate the
> > functions of mechanical gyros.
>
> They don't have to simulate. The output of the gyro is a signal that is
proportional to the rate of rotation in the plane of the gyro. You have to
integrate rate to get displacement and you need something to establish
"down" to "erect" the gyro platform since the rate gyros have no information
about where they started. The accelerometers give you that. Blue Mountain
actually gets hints on orientation from the three-axis manetometer which is
set up to provide flux-gate functionality and they get information from the
GPS sensor. All this gets stirred together to produce a self-correction and
self-calibrating AHRS/IRP.
>
> > I doubt there is much difference between
> > these systems except maybe for the CrossBow units which are probably
more
> > precise.
>
> Actually, Crossbow has two units. The more expensive unit uses the
Systron-Donner rate gyros. (Actually I get a kick out of this as Crossbow
and Systron-Donner are sort of competitors. This says something about
Crowsbow's own rate gyros.) These are the same gyros that Blue Mountain
uses in the EFIS-1 and EFIS-lite. The difference is that Greg chose to
build his own inertial reference platform so it is a cut above the
run-of-the-mill. The lower cost AHRS from Crossbow is not all that great.
>
> BTW, when I started to design my own EFIS/AHRS/IRP about 6 years ago, I
was going to use the Systron-Donner units too. But they were too expensive
and I couldn't find a good sunglight-readable LCD at the time so I dropped
the concept.
>
> > My neighbor here is the designer and manufature of the PC Efis,
> > which is the guy who has the EFIS functionality on PDA's. He uses the
same
> > accelrometer units as every one else. Its mainly the software that
> > determines how well the units function and this has no bearing on unit
size.
>
> There is some truth to this but you still need the gyros.
>
> > I've seen both the Dynon and Bluemountain units installed in Jets such
as
> > L-39's and I've heard both good and bad about the Blue Mountain units,
and
> > have not heard any complaints about the Dynon units.
>
> Blue Mountain ended up with a fair number of complaints, virtually all of
which have been traced to improper installation. People don't seem to know
how to properly crimp wires. Greg Richter told me this (which I took with a
grain of salt) but it was independently verified by the installer I talked
to. Since he sells several of the EFIS systems and has no particular axe to
grind, I think the assessment is valid. When you have one box doing
everything, you have to get all the wires right.
>
> > I've been watching
> > Dynon now for about 3 years since they debuted their first product at
S&F
> > and I have been impressed with their progress. Thye have made small but
> > deliberate upgrads to their core product, whereas Blue Mountain has been
> > sprouting new products every year which tells me that their focus is
> > fragmented.
>
> Well, as someone who has been watching both carefully I don't completely
agree. Greg was a bit optimistic when he bit off the autopilot project.
That was a real can-of-worms. Building a good autopilot is a black art. I
think Grand Rapids got it right to team up with Digitrack to do the
autopilot.
>
> > If I was on to a good thing I probably wouldnt be telling anyone who
called
> > me on the phone all my trade secrets either.
>
> What secrets? These things function by the laws of physics. Opening the
kimono so that others can verify how things are done seems a good way to do
things. Hiding the way the system works doesn't fill me with any sort of
confidence. Would you buy an airplane if the owner wouldn't uncowl it for
you or let you look at the logbooks?
>
> > The Dynon unit can be so small because they have limited their
functionality
> > to the basics; attitude, pitot and heading information, where the Blue
> > mountain units do everything but make coffee. This include PFD, moving
map,
> > autopilot, HSI, let me know what else I've missed. To me, these are more
> > things to go wrong. If one is concerned about all the functionality of a
> > Garmin 430 being a single point of failure, one should really be
concerned
> > with Blue Mountain also.
>
> Yes, that is a potential problem. OTOH the only difference between
providing these functions and not providing them is software and processor
horsepower. In terms of MTBF, the hardware is the same, modulo the quality
of the components. So your system MTBF is likely to be lower with many
boxes instead of just one. OTOH, when that one fails you are in deep
kim-chee.
>
> See, I need attitude, heading, and air-data information (Dynon and Blue
Mountain). I also need engine instrumentation, nav display, moving map,
etc. I get that with EFIS-1. I don't really care if it is a single point
of failure because I am not going to be flying hard IFR. It will get me on
the ground with a pop-up IFR should the weather change. It simplifies my
panel and reduces my parts count substantially. And for $2000 more I get a
full set of instruments for the back seat.
>
> Get what you want. My analysis tells me that the Blue Mountain EFIS-1
meets my needs a lot better than does the Dynon. I understand how the Blue
Mountain equipment works because the designer took the time to explain it to
me. Dynon wouldn't do that when I pointedly asked questions at OSH two
years ago. It was 'secret' and I didn't need to worry my pretty little head
about it. BUZZZZZ -- wrong answer.
>
> > I really like the Efis lite unit, but I would want them in pairs so I
can
> > have one dedicated to being and HSI while the other is dedicated as a
PFD.
> > Unfortunatly they are around $4500 a piece, and this is more than I
would
> > want to spend for my airplanes which I only fly VFR. Look at the Cirrus
> > SR22's, they have all glass panels but are still required to have backup
> > mechanical gyros.
>
> This is because the FAA doesn't really understand but hey, they make the
rules. We get to do things differently in experimental aircraft.
>
> > If I were flying hard IFR in my airplanes with these units
> > I would want the same. I would hate to have a fuse pop, while in a
4000ft
> > could layer, on approach to minimums.
>
> That is the problem. You get to make the choice. I would rather have the
EFIS-lite than the Dynon as my backup.
>
> > I'm putting the Dynon unit in my L-29. From the installations I've seen
and
> > the reports from their owners, this is the most bang for the buck, all
> > techno babble aside.
>
> Your choice. I hope it works well for you.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
>
> There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
> A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Hey Ray, you're going to need that extra horsepower to carry all that gear
aloft :) Hope to see the plane soon, let me know when you got her finished.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: <FamilyGage@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
> --> Yak-List message posted by: FamilyGage@aol.com
>
> Gentlemen:
> Since there seems to be recent discussions about YAK- CJ's IFR and panel
> improvements, may I share with you what we are doing for OSH show. With a
> commitment from George and Cliff Coy and Bill Austin, we have designed a
maximum
> effort toward what we can accomplish with the limited space available on
our
> existing panels.
> The new Yak 52TW arrived in Swanton this spring. Cliff and I worked
through
> multiple panel designs with the theory of making the panel functional,
easy to
> read, and retain all analog instruments just in case of the failure of one
> fully electronic unit.
> Granted, most of our members would not desire to upgrade their panels to
this
> level, however, we wanted to demonstrate what can be done with extensive
> planning and in spending a great deal of time with the various unit
providers.
> Both forward and aft cockpit panels were laser cut following the final
design
> on blank sheets.
> It was necessary to reduce some instruments from 3 1/2 to 2 1/4 and some
> engine instruments to 1 1/4 due to limited space. However, these were
placed at
> eye level, and are easy to read. Each instrument is individually lighted
on a
> separated rheostat for night flying.
>
> The Grand Rapids EFIS was chosen after extensive research into quality
> construction, features, and price. Their complete engine monitor (nine
cylinder
> model) was added which comes with a hand held download unit for your PC.
>
> Garmin AT units were chosen (could be King) due to their history and
factory
> support.
>
> Starting with the main panel (on mounts) we placed the Grand Rapids at the
> center top position. The MX-20 MFD installed below the Grand Rapids.
These two
> units are fairly large and took up that available space.
>
> Cliff designed an avionics stack mounted below the panel which is angled
to
> allow good vision in the forward cockpit.
>
> This unit from top to bottom: GMA-340 audio panel; Garmin 430; SL-40 Com;
> Garmin GTX330 mode S transponder; second display of Grand Rapids engine
> information.
>
> A multifunction stick grip installed in front cockpit and a headset audio
> warning for unsafe gear position were installed. Jim Kimball has an
excellent
> oil recovery system that he uses on his Pitts Model 12 kit, to control oil
> hydraulic lock, plus we added and Adel oil filter.
>
> The plan is to complete airframe and have a Dick Jason paint job before
OSH.
> Hope to see you all at MTW.
>
> If you have any questions on any of these modifications, call Cliff Coy at
> GeSoCo (802)868-5633.
>
> Go RPA,
> Ray Gage
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
> > All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros.
>
>No, they use solid-state rate gyros. You need both the accelerometers and
>the gyros or you can't identify orientation. In a 1-G field you can tell
>where the gravity vector is but as soon as you are in accelerated flight
>your accelerometers no longer tell you your orientation, hence the need for
>the gyros.
Seems to me another term for a rate gyro would be an accelerometer. Whether
it's angular or linear; I guess that's the debate.
I don't know a lot about EFIS's, but I can tell you the Dynon D-10 in my
RV-8 has worked as advertised now for 25-30 hrs total with 1-2 actual IMC.
It's my primary attitude indication and I trust it more than anything
powered by a vacuum pump. Is it better than a Blue Mountain, Honeywell,
Collins or others? Doesn't matter to me - I couldn't afford the others and
the Dynon seemed at the time - and has proven to be - a good buy.
As for the folks at Dynon, I have high praise. They've answered every
(application) question I've asked. They even volunteered to write me a
custom modified code *just for my unit* when I was delayed in completing the
internal mag sensor calibration that *I* screwed up.
I can also easily see why Dynon wouldn't want to hand out detailed technical
answers. With Brian's level of expertise, I would imagine he sounded like
possible competition. That would be foolish to give info to possible
competition.
Waiting for other Dynon products.
Bryan Jones
RV-8
J-3
Houston, Texas
>Ernie wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
> >
> > All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros.
>
>No, they use solid-state rate gyros. You need both the accelerometers and
>the gyros or you can't identify orientation. In a 1-G field you can tell
>where the gravity vector is but as soon as you are in accelerated flight
>your accelerometers no longer tell you your orientation, hence the need for
>the gyros.
>
>
Message 17
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Exploding spark plugs: I have never seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plug
blowing the guts out. I have heard of several Russian plugs coming apart
and really screwing things up. I was told that one was the partial cause of
a fatality in a Yak 52 (stall, spin, trying to get back to the active). I
saw a Pitts mod 12 that blew the guts out of a Russian plug, it really
raised hell with the cowl, baffling and leads. Some of you 52 gurus out
there may be able to confirm or disapprove this but I was told that the
Russian plugs are overhauled many times and become weak after several
cycles. I do know for a fact that the Chinese plugs are factory new, so
maybe that accounts for the fact that they do not have a history of failure.
Another short note about the service for Vern Hupp: I lost count at 428
folks who came to pay tribute to our good friend and fellow aviator. The
family was most appreciative of all the comments on the list. The missing
man was done to perfection, a fitting tribute, he will be missed.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Subject: Yak-List: plugs
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Rick,
I've run both Russian and Chinese plugs for years with no trouble, never
talked to anyone who'd had trouble.
The other night I was talking with Ross Granley, who's just about finished
getting his Yak-18T ready for the air show season (that's right--he does a
terrific routine in an -18T and will be performing this weekend in
Bellingham, WA). He said he needed some adapters so he could run Champion
plugs. I asked why and mentioned I'd never had any trouble with commie
plugs. He told me he had blown the guts out of several and didn't enjoy the
experience of having a flaming geyser under the cowling.
I guess if you run at continuous high power things may be different than in
civilian service. YMMV.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-258-4522/425-876-0865
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0cs5r/index.html
Time: 07:16:41 AM PST US
From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Yak-List: Spark plugs
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere"
--> <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Hello;
Does anyone have or know of access to spark plugs for the M14P?
Champion, Russian, Chinese I really don't care, should I? Champions in now.
Thanks a lot. Sukhoi thanks you too. Ricky B
Message 18
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
Jerry;
Thanks. I ran the original Russian on both my -52 (300hrs) and -55 (100hrs)
with never a problem. I switched to Champion just "'Cuz". They seem to be
a little higher maintenance and easier to foul. I'll go to the Chinese in
the Sukhoi and get back - pro or con. I fly Unlimited and some air shows and
rarely see less than 100% except for x-c to and from. BTW, the same
treatment given to the -52 and -55, run hard but taken care of like my own
kid.
Thanks, again. Going to place Chinese in service - mail just got here.
Rick B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Subject: Yak-List: plugs
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Rick,
I've run both Russian and Chinese plugs for years with no trouble, never
talked to anyone who'd had trouble.
The other night I was talking with Ross Granley, who's just about finished
getting his Yak-18T ready for the air show season (that's right--he does a
terrific routine in an -18T and will be performing this weekend in
Bellingham, WA). He said he needed some adapters so he could run Champion
plugs. I asked why and mentioned I'd never had any trouble with commie
plugs. He told me he had blown the guts out of several and didn't enjoy the
experience of having a flaming geyser under the cowling.
I guess if you run at continuous high power things may be different than in
civilian service. YMMV.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-258-4522/425-876-0865
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0cs5r/index.html
Time: 07:16:41 AM PST US
From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Yak-List: Spark plugs
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere"
--> <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Hello;
Does anyone have or know of access to spark plugs for the M14P?
Champion, Russian, Chinese I really don't care, should I? Champions in now.
Thanks a lot. Sukhoi thanks you too. Ricky B
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
An accelerometer will only register when a change in velocity exists. A
rate gyro will continue to indicate in a constant rate rotation where the
acc will not.
Anyway to provide horizon information you need a vertical gyro. A vertical
gyro measures movement around a fixed point. Today laser gyros are coming
down in price so I think they will be using those. My understanding of
laser gyros is limited but Imagine a very long coil of fiber. Now center
tap it and fire a laser toward the ends. If both pulses arrive at the same
time it was not moving if there is a time difference then this will be
proportional to the rate of movement. Integrate this once to get the speed
of movement and twice to get the distance moved.
Gus fraser
___
N52EK
It's a Russian thing
http://gusfraser.com
...... Original Message .......
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:22:05 -0500 "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
>
>> > All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros.
>>
>>No, they use solid-state rate gyros. You need both the accelerometers
and
>>the gyros or you can't identify orientation. In a 1-G field you can tell
>>where the gravity vector is but as soon as you are in accelerated flight
>>your accelerometers no longer tell you your orientation, hence the need
for
>>the gyros.
>
>Seems to me another term for a rate gyro would be an accelerometer.
Whether
>it's angular or linear; I guess that's the debate.
>
>I don't know a lot about EFIS's, but I can tell you the Dynon D-10 in my
>RV-8 has worked as advertised now for 25-30 hrs total with 1-2 actual IMC.
>It's my primary attitude indication and I trust it more than anything
>powered by a vacuum pump. Is it better than a Blue Mountain, Honeywell,
>Collins or others? Doesn't matter to me - I couldn't afford the others
and
>the Dynon seemed at the time - and has proven to be - a good buy.
>
>As for the folks at Dynon, I have high praise. They've answered every
>(application) question I've asked. They even volunteered to write me a
>custom modified code *just for my unit* when I was delayed in completing
the
>internal mag sensor calibration that *I* screwed up.
>
>I can also easily see why Dynon wouldn't want to hand out detailed
technical
>answers. With Brian's level of expertise, I would imagine he sounded like
>possible competition. That would be foolish to give info to possible
>competition.
>
>Waiting for other Dynon products.
>
>Bryan Jones
>RV-8
>J-3
>Houston, Texas
>
>>Ernie wrote:
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>> >
>> > All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros.
>>
>>No, they use solid-state rate gyros. You need both the accelerometers
and
>>the gyros or you can't identify orientation. In a 1-G field you can tell
>>where the gravity vector is but as soon as you are in accelerated flight
>>your accelerometers no longer tell you your orientation, hence the need
for
>>the gyros.
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Yak and CJ mods |
name@matronics.com, description@matronics.com, ----@matronics.com,
----------------------@matronics.com,
-------------------------------------------@matronics.com
--> Yak-List message posted by: FamilyGage@aol.com
Gentlemen:
Sorry, I neglected several items on what we are doing with the Yak-52TW.
In many long discussions with the owner of Grand Rapids EFIS concerning
autopilots, their best experience has been with the TruTrak systems. The price
is
modest, and I have spoken with several pilots here who have that system, and
they love it.
We installed the Digiflight II VSG model. It has altitude hold, vertical
speed, and GPS-VOR-ILS tracking.
The magnetic compass was replaced with a new wide angle lighted compass
mounted on the top of the canopy bar. A custom contoured unit was constructed to
the curve of the glare shield containing the six basic engine instruments, which
are now directly at eye level.
And Ernie, thanks for your comments, but I think that 400 horsepower should
do the job.
My Best to All,
Ray Gage
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Yak and CJ mods |
--> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com
In a message dated 6/23/04 2:35:01 PM, FamilyGage@aol.com writes:
> Sorry, I neglected several items on what we are doing with the Yak-52TW.
>
We're breathless! When do we see the pictures, Ray. ...Blitz
Message 22
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yaksters
I don't think it's carb ice causing my engine to sputter because I've
had it happen during take-off after maybe a minute under full
power.....and that's up here in the high desert where humidity is very
low. I adjusted the carb and thought it had gone away but, as I learned
the other day, now it's happening again during full power take-off AND
at altitude.
It will not do it during take-off if I throttle back as soon as my
wheels leave the ground. Needless to say it scared the hell out of me
when it did. It seems very intermittent. So far I've tightened the carb
(it was loose), I've replaced the ignition harness, re-timed both mags,
I've checked the gland nuts and they're OK, I've checked and cleaned all
the filters for contamination or water and all those are OK. I can't see
a bad coil doing it unless both coils are bad and what are the chances
of that?
I think Ernie could be right...it's mixture related. I'm about ready to
pull the carb and have it rebuilt. Know anyone who does it? Thanks!
Frank
N911OM
YAK-52
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Problem |
--> Yak-List message posted by: JGibson912@aol.com
In a message dated 6/23/2004 5:13:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
yak52driver@earthlink.net writes:
Frank
please let me know what you find i have been having a similar problem with my
yak-52 in las vegas please contact me at jgibson912@aol.com thanks, john
gibson
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Gus close but no cigar. The laser ring gyro is a triangular ring the laser
is reflected around the ring and arrives at a target from two directions.
This forms a crosshatch pattern. The phase of the pattern denotes if one
signal was Doppler shifted due to an acceleration. Complicated to understand
but iron gyros of sufficient accuracy are now to expensive to manufacture.
Message 25
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Dennis;
I don't get it. If one mag coil stops working then the other is still
firing the cylinder. Also, if one or the other mags stop working then
how is the supercharger purged? "Purged" to me means the induction
system has been cleared of a viable fuel air charge...... Like what
might happen during an intake backfire. The only way I can see the
intake being purged is if you have a sticky valve and the engine
backfires thru the induction system. I'm leaning heavily towards it
being a fuel flow problem. I guess one way to troubleshoot is to turn
off one or the other magnetos during the event and see what happens. It
should either clear or make little difference. Here again that would
point to either a fuel feed problem or sticky valve(s). Now that I think
more about it, the engine behaves almost like I have a mixture control
and I'm looking for peak EGT.
Frank
N911OM
YAK-52
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
Subject: Re: Your engine problem
Frank,
Believe me, we had a similar problem with a bad coil and it does affect
the entire engine operation. I didn't believe it either until I talked
to the folks at the overhaul facility and another expert here in the
states. Both offered the same scenario. When a single mag stops
working momentarily, because the engine has a single common point for
induction, ie: the supercharger, when a single pulse is lost the engine
can appear to be literally shutting down for a couple of milliseconds.
It raises blood pressure dramatically. This phenomena appears in radial
engines an apparently exists in one of the older PW's or Continental
radials for which a fix has never been found. But what happens is the
supercharger is purged which causes all cylinders (effectively) not to
fire. Then once it starts up again (the coil) it appears normal.
As I said, try doing a mag check if at all possible or you'll have to do
it by process of elimination. My guess is you will find a bad coil.
That is solely based on recent experience with the exact same symptom.
I chased the problem for months and did all the things that you have
already done.
Good luck Frank and please keep me posted.
Best wishes,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Your engine problem
> Dennis,
> I don't think it's carb ice doing it because I've had it happen during
> take-off after maybe a minute under full power.....and that's up here
> in the high desert where humidity is very low. I adjusted the carb and
> thought it had gone away but, as I learned the other day, now it's
> happening again during full power take-off AND at altitude.
>
> It will not do it during take-off if I throttle back as soon as my
> wheels leave the ground. Needless to say it scared the hell out of me
> when it did. It seems very intermittent. So far I've tightened the
> carb (it was loose), I've replaced the ignition harness, re-timed both
> mags, I've checked the gland nuts and they're OK, I've checked and
> cleaned all the filters for contamination or water and all those are
> OK. I can't see a bad coil doing it unless both coils are bad and what
> are the chances of that?
>
> I think Ernie could be right...it's mixture related. I'm about ready
> to pull the carb and have it rebuilt. Know anyone who does it? Thanks!
>
> Frank
> N911OM
> YAK-52
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:53 PM
> To: Frank Haertlein
> Subject: Your engine problem
>
>
> Hi Frank,
> I'm not sure I can be of much help because you may have already tried
> some or all of these suggestions. But these are based on my
> experiences.
> - Recheck the security of the intake gland nuts and the intake collars
> at the cylinder head.
> - Recheck the security of the nuts holding the carburetor to the
> accessory case.
> - Just for grins, check the fine fuel screen for debris.
> - Make sure there is nothing flopping around underneath the carburetor
> intake screen that could cause blockage of air flow into the
> carburetor.
> - Sump the fuel to see if there could be small amounts of water in the
> fuel.
> - There is also the possibility of the problem being a bad coil/
> intermittent coil in a magneto. Try isolating the problem to one mag
or
> the other. I know that's a tough decision to make when the engine is
> running rough, but you really need to check it. If possible, go to
> altitude directly over the airplane and try to duplicate the problem.
> Next time you fly the airplane and you experience the problem, try the
> carb heat just for the heck of it.
>
> If I think of more things when I'm not so tired, I'll email them to
> you. Please do let me and the Yak list folks know what you determine
> to be the problem.
>
> Best wishes,
> Dennis Savarese
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
But the rest was right,right :)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jay reiter
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Gus close but no cigar. The laser ring gyro is a triangular ring the laser
is reflected around the ring and arrives at a target from two directions.
This forms a crosshatch pattern. The phase of the pattern denotes if one
signal was Doppler shifted due to an acceleration. Complicated to understand
but iron gyros of sufficient accuracy are now to expensive to manufacture.
Message 27
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|
--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
I am trying to repair a smoke system for Craig Eckner. The pump has a small white
label with two numbers. 000111 and 0024. Bill Blackwell thinks it is a Flow
Jet but I can not find them on the internet. Does anyone have further information?
Has any one had any experience with the thru bolts that hold the pump to
the motor?
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Engine problem |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Dennis has a point, because Pappy had the same problem, which plaqued him
for weeks. But the problem manifested itself consistently during the mag
check, he had a severe RPM drop on the bad mag. I also just witnessed the
same type of problem on my friends IO-540 in his Pitts. Was a bad coil, but
could not be detected through any static checks. But again, the problem
manifested itself consistently on the ground during mag check, the engine
would burp, fart and gargle on the bad mag. Franks problem seems to be more
intermittent.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Engine problem
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Dennis;
> I don't get it. If one mag coil stops working then the other is still
> firing the cylinder. Also, if one or the other mags stop working then
> how is the supercharger purged? "Purged" to me means the induction
> system has been cleared of a viable fuel air charge...... Like what
> might happen during an intake backfire. The only way I can see the
> intake being purged is if you have a sticky valve and the engine
> backfires thru the induction system. I'm leaning heavily towards it
> being a fuel flow problem. I guess one way to troubleshoot is to turn
> off one or the other magnetos during the event and see what happens. It
> should either clear or make little difference. Here again that would
> point to either a fuel feed problem or sticky valve(s). Now that I think
> more about it, the engine behaves almost like I have a mixture control
> and I'm looking for peak EGT.
>
> Frank
> N911OM
> YAK-52
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
> To: Frank Haertlein
> Subject: Re: Your engine problem
>
>
> Frank,
> Believe me, we had a similar problem with a bad coil and it does affect
> the entire engine operation. I didn't believe it either until I talked
> to the folks at the overhaul facility and another expert here in the
> states. Both offered the same scenario. When a single mag stops
> working momentarily, because the engine has a single common point for
> induction, ie: the supercharger, when a single pulse is lost the engine
> can appear to be literally shutting down for a couple of milliseconds.
> It raises blood pressure dramatically. This phenomena appears in radial
> engines an apparently exists in one of the older PW's or Continental
> radials for which a fix has never been found. But what happens is the
> supercharger is purged which causes all cylinders (effectively) not to
> fire. Then once it starts up again (the coil) it appears normal.
>
> As I said, try doing a mag check if at all possible or you'll have to do
> it by process of elimination. My guess is you will find a bad coil.
> That is solely based on recent experience with the exact same symptom.
> I chased the problem for months and did all the things that you have
> already done.
>
> Good luck Frank and please keep me posted.
> Best wishes,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> To: "'A. Dennis Savarese'" <adsavar@gte.net>
> Subject: RE: Your engine problem
>
>
> > Dennis,
> > I don't think it's carb ice doing it because I've had it happen during
>
> > take-off after maybe a minute under full power.....and that's up here
> > in the high desert where humidity is very low. I adjusted the carb and
>
> > thought it had gone away but, as I learned the other day, now it's
> > happening again during full power take-off AND at altitude.
> >
> > It will not do it during take-off if I throttle back as soon as my
> > wheels leave the ground. Needless to say it scared the hell out of me
>
> > when it did. It seems very intermittent. So far I've tightened the
> > carb (it was loose), I've replaced the ignition harness, re-timed both
>
> > mags, I've checked the gland nuts and they're OK, I've checked and
> > cleaned all the filters for contamination or water and all those are
> > OK. I can't see a bad coil doing it unless both coils are bad and what
>
> > are the chances of that?
> >
> > I think Ernie could be right...it's mixture related. I'm about ready
> > to pull the carb and have it rebuilt. Know anyone who does it? Thanks!
> >
> > Frank
> > N911OM
> > YAK-52
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:53 PM
> > To: Frank Haertlein
> > Subject: Your engine problem
> >
> >
> > Hi Frank,
> > I'm not sure I can be of much help because you may have already tried
> > some or all of these suggestions. But these are based on my
> > experiences.
> > - Recheck the security of the intake gland nuts and the intake collars
>
> > at the cylinder head.
> > - Recheck the security of the nuts holding the carburetor to the
> > accessory case.
> > - Just for grins, check the fine fuel screen for debris.
> > - Make sure there is nothing flopping around underneath the carburetor
>
> > intake screen that could cause blockage of air flow into the
> > carburetor.
> > - Sump the fuel to see if there could be small amounts of water in the
> > fuel.
> > - There is also the possibility of the problem being a bad coil/
> > intermittent coil in a magneto. Try isolating the problem to one mag
> or
> > the other. I know that's a tough decision to make when the engine is
> > running rough, but you really need to check it. If possible, go to
> > altitude directly over the airplane and try to duplicate the problem.
> > Next time you fly the airplane and you experience the problem, try the
> > carb heat just for the heck of it.
> >
> > If I think of more things when I'm not so tired, I'll email them to
> > you. Please do let me and the Yak list folks know what you determine
> > to be the problem.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Dennis Savarese
> >
> >
>
>
Message 29
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Selby" <alikatz@mbay.net>
Hello,
I'm looking for Walt Lannon's e-mail address, my messages keep getting
returned...... Thanks,
Best,
Jim Selby, Jr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine problem
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> Dennis has a point, because Pappy had the same problem, which plaqued him
> for weeks. But the problem manifested itself consistently during the mag
> check, he had a severe RPM drop on the bad mag. I also just witnessed the
> same type of problem on my friends IO-540 in his Pitts. Was a bad coil,
but
> could not be detected through any static checks. But again, the problem
> manifested itself consistently on the ground during mag check, the engine
> would burp, fart and gargle on the bad mag. Franks problem seems to be
more
> intermittent.
>
> Ernie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Engine problem
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Dennis;
> > I don't get it. If one mag coil stops working then the other is still
> > firing the cylinder. Also, if one or the other mags stop working then
> > how is the supercharger purged? "Purged" to me means the induction
> > system has been cleared of a viable fuel air charge...... Like what
> > might happen during an intake backfire. The only way I can see the
> > intake being purged is if you have a sticky valve and the engine
> > backfires thru the induction system. I'm leaning heavily towards it
> > being a fuel flow problem. I guess one way to troubleshoot is to turn
> > off one or the other magnetos during the event and see what happens. It
> > should either clear or make little difference. Here again that would
> > point to either a fuel feed problem or sticky valve(s). Now that I think
> > more about it, the engine behaves almost like I have a mixture control
> > and I'm looking for peak EGT.
> >
> > Frank
> > N911OM
> > YAK-52
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
> > To: Frank Haertlein
> > Subject: Re: Your engine problem
> >
> >
> > Frank,
> > Believe me, we had a similar problem with a bad coil and it does affect
> > the entire engine operation. I didn't believe it either until I talked
> > to the folks at the overhaul facility and another expert here in the
> > states. Both offered the same scenario. When a single mag stops
> > working momentarily, because the engine has a single common point for
> > induction, ie: the supercharger, when a single pulse is lost the engine
> > can appear to be literally shutting down for a couple of milliseconds.
> > It raises blood pressure dramatically. This phenomena appears in radial
> > engines an apparently exists in one of the older PW's or Continental
> > radials for which a fix has never been found. But what happens is the
> > supercharger is purged which causes all cylinders (effectively) not to
> > fire. Then once it starts up again (the coil) it appears normal.
> >
> > As I said, try doing a mag check if at all possible or you'll have to do
> > it by process of elimination. My guess is you will find a bad coil.
> > That is solely based on recent experience with the exact same symptom.
> > I chased the problem for months and did all the things that you have
> > already done.
> >
> > Good luck Frank and please keep me posted.
> > Best wishes,
> > Dennis
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
> > To: "'A. Dennis Savarese'" <adsavar@gte.net>
> > Subject: RE: Your engine problem
> >
> >
> > > Dennis,
> > > I don't think it's carb ice doing it because I've had it happen during
> >
> > > take-off after maybe a minute under full power.....and that's up here
> > > in the high desert where humidity is very low. I adjusted the carb and
> >
> > > thought it had gone away but, as I learned the other day, now it's
> > > happening again during full power take-off AND at altitude.
> > >
> > > It will not do it during take-off if I throttle back as soon as my
> > > wheels leave the ground. Needless to say it scared the hell out of me
> >
> > > when it did. It seems very intermittent. So far I've tightened the
> > > carb (it was loose), I've replaced the ignition harness, re-timed both
> >
> > > mags, I've checked the gland nuts and they're OK, I've checked and
> > > cleaned all the filters for contamination or water and all those are
> > > OK. I can't see a bad coil doing it unless both coils are bad and what
> >
> > > are the chances of that?
> > >
> > > I think Ernie could be right...it's mixture related. I'm about ready
> > > to pull the carb and have it rebuilt. Know anyone who does it? Thanks!
> > >
> > > Frank
> > > N911OM
> > > YAK-52
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:53 PM
> > > To: Frank Haertlein
> > > Subject: Your engine problem
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Frank,
> > > I'm not sure I can be of much help because you may have already tried
> > > some or all of these suggestions. But these are based on my
> > > experiences.
> > > - Recheck the security of the intake gland nuts and the intake collars
> >
> > > at the cylinder head.
> > > - Recheck the security of the nuts holding the carburetor to the
> > > accessory case.
> > > - Just for grins, check the fine fuel screen for debris.
> > > - Make sure there is nothing flopping around underneath the carburetor
> >
> > > intake screen that could cause blockage of air flow into the
> > > carburetor.
> > > - Sump the fuel to see if there could be small amounts of water in the
> > > fuel.
> > > - There is also the possibility of the problem being a bad coil/
> > > intermittent coil in a magneto. Try isolating the problem to one mag
> > or
> > > the other. I know that's a tough decision to make when the engine is
> > > running rough, but you really need to check it. If possible, go to
> > > altitude directly over the airplane and try to duplicate the problem.
> > > Next time you fly the airplane and you experience the problem, try the
> > > carb heat just for the heck of it.
> > >
> > > If I think of more things when I'm not so tired, I'll email them to
> > > you. Please do let me and the Yak list folks know what you determine
> > > to be the problem.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Dennis Savarese
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Gus
I don't think it is possible to manufacture iron gyros with sufficient
accuracy. They have creep and are affected by mechanical errors induced
by such things as an inertial reference that has to be corrected due to
the effects of the rotation of the earth. That correction signal changes
as you rotate about the compass and that only compounds the problem.
Interferometry uses the same principles as the RLG where
displacement/acceleration is derived from the Doppler shift of light.
Using interferometry, it's possible to make displacement measurements
with accuracies to .000001 with so it's not hard to imagine why the RLG
has the accuracy that it does. I suspect that most attitude indicating
systems today that use accelerometers or gyros have a degraded accuracy
related to time in operation since the initial reference was set. I'm
curious as to how Blue Mountain and others provide correction signals to
keep accuracy at usable levels. Do you have to periodically reset these
systems while maintaining straight and level flight?
Frank
N911OM
YAK-52
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gus Fraser
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
But the rest was right,right :)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jay reiter
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Gus close but no cigar. The laser ring gyro is a triangular ring the
laser is reflected around the ring and arrives at a target from two
directions. This forms a crosshatch pattern. The phase of the pattern
denotes if one signal was Doppler shifted due to an acceleration.
Complicated to understand but iron gyros of sufficient accuracy are now
to expensive to manufacture.
==
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==
==
==
Message 31
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| Subject: | Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Hi Again Frank,
Just for the sake of information..... the old style Inertial Nav System
with accelerometers that were/are affected by gravity... hence the need for
gyro's to maintain a stable mounting platform.... are still in use by some
military aircraft and in fact until very recently in MOST military aircraft.
Litton makes some of the best versions, and their ASN-130 was used in the
EA-6B, the F-18, the F-14, etc.,etc. until the ASN-139 came along, which was
a strap down gyro in tandem with a Laser Ring package. The pure Inertial
unit (ASN-130) was advertised to maintain 1 nautical mile or better of drift
per hour, for the first 3 hours.... UNCORRECTED. The ASN-139 (still very
much in use) advertised the same drift values, but usually did around 1/2
mile/hour of operation drift or better. The newer version such as the
ASN-172 EGI, has an embedded GPS coupled to a pure Laser Ring system and
using a Kalmon Filter is able to derive the best of both worlds. Some
aircraft now have TWO of these latter systems installed.
Regardless, the old ASN-130 used "iron gyro's" (two of them in fact) on a
four gimbal platform and were internal corrected for Earth Rate Rotation,
Schuler Effect (excuse my spelling) and all the other wonderful little
factors that made these devices very difficult to control. One nautical
mile per hour is pretty impressive! While their present position accuracy
did in fact degrade over time.... the amount of error in pitch and roll
presented to the pilot was indeed so minor as to not be concerned with.
Mark
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Haertlein [mailto:yak52driver@earthlink.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Gus
I don't think it is possible to manufacture iron gyros with sufficient
accuracy. They have creep and are affected by mechanical errors induced
by such things as an inertial reference that has to be corrected due to
the effects of the rotation of the earth. That correction signal changes
as you rotate about the compass and that only compounds the problem.
Interferometry uses the same principles as the RLG where
displacement/acceleration is derived from the Doppler shift of light.
Using interferometry, it's possible to make displacement measurements
with accuracies to .000001 with so it's not hard to imagine why the RLG
has the accuracy that it does. I suspect that most attitude indicating
systems today that use accelerometers or gyros have a degraded accuracy
related to time in operation since the initial reference was set. I'm
curious as to how Blue Mountain and others provide correction signals to
keep accuracy at usable levels. Do you have to periodically reset these
systems while maintaining straight and level flight?
Frank
N911OM
YAK-52
Message 32
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Gus
I got carried away. The platform is very hard to explain in one sentence. You are
right there are several ways to arrive at the information depending on how
much you spend. The ring is used in navigational accuracy systems but accelerometers
are good for attitude. I have not seen a straight tube but there is more
than one way etc. etc.
Message 33
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Found a website it is under ITT FloJet and ITT Jabsco
Message 34
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| Subject: | Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Brian said
"you need something to establish "down" to "erect" the gyro platform"
How about Ay Secant Phi ?
Scuse my spelling.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Ernie wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> All of these systems use accelerometers as gyros.
No, they use solid-state rate gyros. You need both the accelerometers
and the gyros or you can't identify orientation. In a 1-G field you can
tell where the gravity vector is but as soon as you are in accelerated
flight your accelerometers no longer tell you your orientation, hence
the need for the gyros.
> The higer end units like
> Chelton etc use the CrossBow accelorometer units, These are solid
> state devices with micro springs and pressure sensors to determine G
> in the various planes.
Actually, there are two types of solid-state rate gyros out there. One
is the vibrating beam type preferred by Murata. The other is the
vibrating fork type which detects rotation by coriolis effect.
Systron-Donner has the latter. In fact, they have a really nice
balanced fork design with two forks working in opposition that cancel
out a number of errors.
> These accelerometers along with software simulate the functions of
> mechanical gyros.
They don't have to simulate. The output of the gyro is a signal that is
proportional to the rate of rotation in the plane of the gyro. You have
to integrate rate to get displacement and you need something to
establish "down" to "erect" the gyro platform since the rate gyros have
no information about where they started. The accelerometers give you
that. Blue Mountain actually gets hints on orientation from the
three-axis manetometer which is set up to provide flux-gate
functionality and they get information from the GPS sensor. All this
gets stirred together to produce a self-correction and self-calibrating
AHRS/IRP.
> I doubt there is much difference between
> these systems except maybe for the CrossBow units which are probably
> more precise.
Actually, Crossbow has two units. The more expensive unit uses the
Systron-Donner rate gyros. (Actually I get a kick out of this as
Crossbow and Systron-Donner are sort of competitors. This says
something about Crowsbow's own rate gyros.) These are the same gyros
that Blue Mountain uses in the EFIS-1 and EFIS-lite. The difference is
that Greg chose to build his own inertial reference platform so it is a
cut above the run-of-the-mill. The lower cost AHRS from Crossbow is not
all that great.
BTW, when I started to design my own EFIS/AHRS/IRP about 6 years ago, I
was going to use the Systron-Donner units too. But they were too
expensive and I couldn't find a good sunglight-readable LCD at the time
so I dropped the concept.
> My neighbor here is the designer and manufature of the PC Efis, which
> is the guy who has the EFIS functionality on PDA's. He uses the same
> accelrometer units as every one else. Its mainly the software that
> determines how well the units function and this has no bearing on unit
> size.
There is some truth to this but you still need the gyros.
> I've seen both the Dynon and Bluemountain units installed in Jets such
> as L-39's and I've heard both good and bad about the Blue Mountain
> units, and have not heard any complaints about the Dynon units.
Blue Mountain ended up with a fair number of complaints, virtually all
of which have been traced to improper installation. People don't seem
to know how to properly crimp wires. Greg Richter told me this (which I
took with a grain of salt) but it was independently verified by the
installer I talked to. Since he sells several of the EFIS systems and
has no particular axe to grind, I think the assessment is valid. When
you have one box doing everything, you have to get all the wires right.
> I've been watching
> Dynon now for about 3 years since they debuted their first product at
> S&F and I have been impressed with their progress. Thye have made
> small but deliberate upgrads to their core product, whereas Blue
> Mountain has been sprouting new products every year which tells me
> that their focus is fragmented.
Well, as someone who has been watching both carefully I don't completely
agree. Greg was a bit optimistic when he bit off the autopilot project.
That was a real can-of-worms. Building a good autopilot is a black art.
I think Grand Rapids got it right to team up with Digitrack to do the
autopilot.
> If I was on to a good thing I probably wouldnt be telling anyone who
> called me on the phone all my trade secrets either.
What secrets? These things function by the laws of physics. Opening
the kimono so that others can verify how things are done seems a good
way to do things. Hiding the way the system works doesn't fill me with
any sort of confidence. Would you buy an airplane if the owner wouldn't
uncowl it for you or let you look at the logbooks?
> The Dynon unit can be so small because they have limited their
> functionality to the basics; attitude, pitot and heading information,
> where the Blue mountain units do everything but make coffee. This
> include PFD, moving map, autopilot, HSI, let me know what else I've
> missed. To me, these are more things to go wrong. If one is concerned
> about all the functionality of a Garmin 430 being a single point of
> failure, one should really be concerned with Blue Mountain also.
Yes, that is a potential problem. OTOH the only difference between
providing these functions and not providing them is software and
processor horsepower. In terms of MTBF, the hardware is the same,
modulo the quality of the components. So your system MTBF is likely to
be lower with many boxes instead of just one. OTOH, when that one fails
you are in deep kim-chee.
See, I need attitude, heading, and air-data information (Dynon and Blue
Mountain). I also need engine instrumentation, nav display, moving map,
etc. I get that with EFIS-1. I don't really care if it is a single
point of failure because I am not going to be flying hard IFR. It will
get me on the ground with a pop-up IFR should the weather change. It
simplifies my panel and reduces my parts count substantially. And for
$2000 more I get a full set of instruments for the back seat.
Get what you want. My analysis tells me that the Blue Mountain EFIS-1
meets my needs a lot better than does the Dynon. I understand how the
Blue Mountain equipment works because the designer took the time to
explain it to me. Dynon wouldn't do that when I pointedly asked
questions at OSH two years ago. It was 'secret' and I didn't need to
worry my pretty little head about it. BUZZZZZ -- wrong answer.
> I really like the Efis lite unit, but I would want them in pairs so I
> can have one dedicated to being and HSI while the other is dedicated
> as a PFD. Unfortunatly they are around $4500 a piece, and this is more
> than I would want to spend for my airplanes which I only fly VFR. Look
> at the Cirrus SR22's, they have all glass panels but are still
> required to have backup mechanical gyros.
This is because the FAA doesn't really understand but hey, they make the
rules. We get to do things differently in experimental aircraft.
> If I were flying hard IFR in my airplanes with these units
> I would want the same. I would hate to have a fuse pop, while in a
> 4000ft could layer, on approach to minimums.
That is the problem. You get to make the choice. I would rather have
the EFIS-lite than the Dynon as my backup.
> I'm putting the Dynon unit in my L-29. From the installations I've
> seen and the reports from their owners, this is the most bang for the
> buck, all techno babble aside.
Your choice. I hope it works well for you.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 35
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
I did hear tell of astro inertial nav being considered a few years ago where
the inertial platform was given a correction from an automatic astro shot
taken from a remote sensor on the aircraft. Every now and then this sensor
would wake up and take a quick shot and nudge the inertial platform back to
the right place. The advantage for the military is obvious as this is a
totally radar/transmission passive non jammable solution to the navigation
problem. I am not sure what will come next...
I remember being at the Ministry of Defence and hearing from a Naval Officer
that I worked with about a presentation he was at.
A vendor was making a very impressive presentation about a new torpedo that
was under development. The vendor was so proud of the proposed capabilities
of this new torpedo. Basically the Torpedo would carry noise signatures of
enemy ships and recognize them. If you fired one and it missed it would go
to sleep until another enemy ship passed by. After a long and scientific
description of the proposal a young officer stood up and said:-
"Scenario, we capture enemy ship." Stunned silence, the budget for
development was walking out of the door.
After a few seconds measured in hours the young officer spoke again
"Scenario, peace breaks out."
I just added this to give everyone a laugh.
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jay reiter
Subject: Yak-List: Sorry
--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay reiter" <jmreiter@adelphia.net>
Gus
I got carried away. The platform is very hard to explain in one sentence.
You are right there are several ways to arrive at the information depending
on how much you spend. The ring is used in navigational accuracy systems but
accelerometers are good for attitude. I have not seen a straight tube but
there is more than one way etc. etc.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Dynon Avionics Stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Mark
I can relate. The systems I worked with (Bendix) had a 3 mile CEP with
correction applied. Also, I said Doppler was used in the RLG. I stand
corrected. It's the phase shift of light that provides the signals.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich
GS11 Mark G
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
--> <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Hi Again Frank,
Just for the sake of information..... the old style Inertial Nav System
with accelerometers that were/are affected by gravity... hence the need
for gyro's to maintain a stable mounting platform.... are still in use
by some military aircraft and in fact until very recently in MOST
military aircraft. Litton makes some of the best versions, and their
ASN-130 was used in the EA-6B, the F-18, the F-14, etc.,etc. until the
ASN-139 came along, which was a strap down gyro in tandem with a Laser
Ring package. The pure Inertial unit (ASN-130) was advertised to
maintain 1 nautical mile or better of drift per hour, for the first 3
hours.... UNCORRECTED. The ASN-139 (still very much in use) advertised
the same drift values, but usually did around 1/2 mile/hour of operation
drift or better. The newer version such as the ASN-172 EGI, has an
embedded GPS coupled to a pure Laser Ring system and using a Kalmon
Filter is able to derive the best of both worlds. Some aircraft now
have TWO of these latter systems installed.
Regardless, the old ASN-130 used "iron gyro's" (two of them in fact) on
a four gimbal platform and were internal corrected for Earth Rate
Rotation, Schuler Effect (excuse my spelling) and all the other
wonderful little factors that made these devices very difficult to
control. One nautical mile per hour is pretty impressive! While their
present position accuracy did in fact degrade over time.... the amount
of error in pitch and roll presented to the pilot was indeed so minor as
to not be concerned with.
Mark
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Haertlein [mailto:yak52driver@earthlink.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Dynon Avionics Stuff
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Gus
I don't think it is possible to manufacture iron gyros with sufficient
accuracy. They have creep and are affected by mechanical errors induced
by such things as an inertial reference that has to be corrected due to
the effects of the rotation of the earth. That correction signal changes
as you rotate about the compass and that only compounds the problem.
Interferometry uses the same principles as the RLG where
displacement/acceleration is derived from the Doppler shift of light.
Using interferometry, it's possible to make displacement measurements
with accuracies to .000001 with so it's not hard to imagine why the RLG
has the accuracy that it does. I suspect that most attitude indicating
systems today that use accelerometers or gyros have a degraded accuracy
related to time in operation since the initial reference was set. I'm
curious as to how Blue Mountain and others provide correction signals to
keep accuracy at usable levels. Do you have to periodically reset these
systems while maintaining straight and level flight? Frank N911OM YAK-52
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 37
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1.0 FAKE_HELO_SHAW_CA Host HELO did not match rDNS": shaw.ca@matronics.com
--> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
I concur with Doug, never heard of a problem with the Chinese plugs and could never
figure out why anyone would bother converting to Champions. Further I have
seen the Champ plugs damaged with the conversion bushings.Besides Doug's price
on the Chinese plugs better.
Joe
Message 38
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Thomas.E.Bennett@us.army.mil, Bill.Mills@avnet.com, bwalker11@charter.net,
kilousmc@aol.com, dedaim@bellsouth.net, Lynch@net.jets.com,
cpayne@joimail.com, darinfm@earthlink.net, David.Petri@northcom.mil,
deegrimm@cox.net, dpgtech@bellsouth.net, dhedstrom@yahoo.com,
rvfltd@televar.com, aapilot@adelphia.net, RetroAviation@aol.com,
GeneHCO@aol.com, ggm2@chrysler.com, HOBWOLF@aol.com, hspore@earthlink.net,
jrespo66@earthlink.net, jland@popeandland.com, cjpilot710@aol.com,
N4829T@aol.com, Yak52Driver@aol.com, avcraft@citlink.net,
LaraLynn23@aol.com, beach@digitalexp.com, MFilucci@aol.com,
mpontoni@midsouth.rr.com, paulbatliner@netzero.net, Hess737@aol.com,
sales@belleairetours.com, cd001633@mindspring.com, aviatr@aol.com,
scgsmg@direcway.com, cj6sly@cs.com, tcalloway@datatechnique.com,
thomas.bennett@peoavn.redstone.army.mil, wlannon@cablerocket.com,
yak-list@matronics.com
| Subject: | CJ Website...please pardon this proud owner... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jeff Linebaugh <jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
Hi Fellow Yakers,
I just put up a small website on our CJ....go take a peek and see what you think.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/
In particular, check out the "leftovers" from our M14P conversion. We still have
a nice prop and set of gills available (and some misc stuff), for anyone who
is interested.
I'll add more to the site as I get time...and your suggestions.
Hope it helps or interests you...
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
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