Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:21 AM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle)
2. 01:20 AM - Brake add on (craig)
3. 05:25 AM - Re: Go figure (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 05:49 AM - Fw: more on the stuff (cjpilot710@aol.com)
5. 06:41 AM - Swamp Dragons Squadron (cjpilot710@aol.com)
6. 06:53 AM - Re: Go figure (DaBear)
7. 07:48 AM - Stealth (Barry Hancock)
8. 08:05 AM - Re: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Jim and Vivian)
9. 08:17 AM - Re: brakes (Barry Hancock)
10. 08:47 AM - Nitrogen/air starting (Joe Howse)
11. 11:36 AM - Re: Go figure (Jim Bernier)
12. 11:37 AM - Re: Nitrogen/air starting (Brian Lloyd)
13. 11:47 AM - Re: Nitrogen/air starting (Jim Bernier)
14. 12:24 PM - Re: Nitrogen/air starting (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
15. 12:29 PM - Re: Nitrogen/air starting (Brian Lloyd)
16. 01:04 PM - Re: brakes (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
17. 02:08 PM - Re: Nitrogen/air starting (Jorgen Nielsen)
18. 02:49 PM - Re: Nitrogen/air starting (Brian Lloyd)
19. 03:18 PM - Flying over densely populated areas (Yakjock)
20. 03:23 PM - Re: Flying over densely populated areas (Richard Basiliere)
21. 03:37 PM - HEY! YOU! (Duncan aka Russ)
22. 03:47 PM - Re: HEY! YOU! (Avcraft)
23. 04:18 PM - Re: HEY! YOU! (Terry Calloway)
24. 04:19 PM - Re: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Frank Haertlein)
25. 04:45 PM - Re: HEY! YOU! (Bpx2horn@aol.com)
26. 05:25 PM - Re: HEY! YOU! (cjpilot710@aol.com)
27. 06:14 PM - Re: Flying over densely populated areas (Kendel McCarley)
28. 07:44 PM - Re: HEY! YOU! (Ronald Kalemba)
29. 08:16 PM - Re: HEY! YOU! (Yak52)
30. 10:14 PM - Re: Flying over densely populated areas (Brian Lloyd)
31. 10:15 PM - Re: HEY! YOU! (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Yak-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Yak-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Yak-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Yak-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Yak-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Yak-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Yak-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Yak-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Yak-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "craig" <rupilot@nvbell.net>
On the Yak 9 we add a emergency brake handle in case of cable failure. It
has been awhile since i worked on a 52 so not sure it it would work.
We drill and tap a hole in the actuator valve lever that connects to the
cable. we put an AN bolt which sticks up in a slot in the floor board which
on a yak 9 is forward and left of the stick. If there is a cable failure at
least the pilot can reach down with a hand or foot and apply the brake as
needed.
Like i said not sure if it would work on any of the other yaks but on the
9 it is 1 hour job and just the cost of a bolt. I usually weld on a knob of
sorts and paint it red.
Craig
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
My CJ-6/M14p has poor starting habits if I have to use nitrogen. However I
can get it started by opening the throttle wide open during the start. I am
also ready to close it as soon as it catches. My therory is that nigertion will
not support combustion and takes up a lot of volume in the cylinder. You can
overcome this with more fresh air coming from the carburetor, the normal
fuel/air mixture is restored.
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fwd: more on the stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 7/1/2004 4:24:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cjpilot710
writes:
> Troops,
> It's 4am and I can't sleep. In a short while the alarm will go off and my
> wife will take to me PHL for me to catch space available seat home.
>
> June was quite a month. Lost a good fellow and fun member in a T-6 (Vern).
> Spent 5 days changing out the bushing in the B-24 landing gear. Got a ride
> in an Pitts S-12. Rode though some aerobatics in Hal's beautiful CJ-6 and
> feast my eyes on his future grandchampion. Feathered my second big round
> engine in 42 years (first in 1962 in DC-3) when #4 craped out a master rod bearing
> on the B-24 right at 200'. And watch my son get his Ph D.
>
> The other thing I did was volunteer to do the RPA newsletter. I am now
> asking stuff from you folks. Pilots and frustrated mechanics are mostly "visual"
> people (they only understand only pictures) so I'll be needing lots of
> those. I plan on included things like the minutes of Board meeting and our
> financial status.
>
> Alarm just went off!!! Got to go. More later>
Now home and have had a decent nights sleep.
Back to the RPA newsletter thing. The newsletter should be a refection of
its members, what they like to see, but also a way to inform them of issues that
could or will effect them. These issues may come from the officers but more
than likely are raised by the members themselves. Thence there will be a
Letters to the Editor section (no anonymous letters).
Since the newsletter is quarterly, it will reflect what has happened within
the RPA between issues. With RPA setup on a regional structure, that is how
I'd like to report "Mission Reports". Lots of pictures.
Anyway I can't do a decent job with the letter without you input. I'll need
yawl's guidance on how good or bad it will be.
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: stuff
Troops,
It's 4am and I can't sleep. In a short while the alarm will go off and my
wife will take to me PHL for me to catch space available seat home.
June was quite a month. Lost a good fellow and fun member in a T-6 (Vern).
Spent 5 days changing out the bushing in the B-24 landing gear. Got a ride in
an Pitts S-12. Rode though some aerobatics in Hal's beautiful CJ-6 and feast
my eyes on his future grandchampion. Feathered my second big round engine in
42 years (first in 1962 in DC-3) when #4 craped out a master rod bearing on
the B-24 right at 200'. And watch my son get his Ph D.
The other thing I did was volunteer to do the RPA newsletter. I am now
asking stuff from you folks. Pilots and frustrated mechanics are mostly "visual"
people (they only understand only pictures) so I'll be needing lots of those.
I plan on included things like the minutes of Board meeting and our financial
status.
Alarm just went off!!! Got to go. More later>
Troops,
It's 4am and I can't sleep. In a short while the alarm will go off and my wife
will take to me PHL for me to catch space available seat home.
June was quite a month. Lost a good fellow and fun member in a T-6 (Vern). Spent
5 days changing out the bushing in the B-24 landing gear. Got a ride in an Pitts
S-12. Rode though some aerobatics in Hal's beautiful CJ-6 and feast my eyes
on his future grandchampion. Feathered my second big round engine in 42 years
(first in 1962 in DC-3) when #4 craped out a master rod bearing on the B-24
right at 200'. And watch my son get his Ph D.
The other thing I did was volunteer to do the RPA newsletter. I am now asking stuff
from you folks. Pilots and frustrated mechanics are=20mostly "visual" people
(they only understand only pictures) so I'll be needing lots of those. I plan
on included things like the minutes of Board=20meeting and our financial status.
Alarm just went off!!! Got to go. More later
Message 5
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| Subject: | Swamp Dragons Squadron |
vinnietirado@netzero.net, talewis@attbi.com, Bill.Mills@avnet.com,
cpayne@joimail.com, fschlafly@sprynet.com, aapilot@adelphia.net
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Attention To Orders
From: Jim "Pappy" Goolsby HMFIC
Subject: Squadron Operations Organizational Meeting.
1. All personal will report to OBE on Saturday 10 July 2004. Note: Locals
are not aware of this mission. No special bennies are expected.
2. Report time 0900.
3. The make up of squadron officer positions (who runs what) and possible
missions and mission objectives, will be determined. The doctrines of "Keep it
lite so we can fight" and "Spread misery evenly" will rule the mission
objectives and organization.
4. Expect some local formation flying however primary mission is squadron
setup and lunch.
5. Meeting should be concluded by the time the afternoon CBs arrive.
6. All Florida RPA are encouraged to attend.
END OF MESSAGE
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
Apology accepted! Barry, I've said on the list before, I've seen some
other yaks start on Nitrogen, but my first yak N151PA (Yak-52) wouldn't
start on Nitrogen.
Glad to hear Drew got flying finally. Sorry to hear it was that
frustrating.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower@cox.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Go figure
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
>
> I don't want to take the time to go back and count, but anyone who has
> been on this list for any length of time will know this is one of those
> cyclical topics....NITROGEN!!!!!
>
> <the entire subscription base gasps and moans>
>
> Foundation:
>
> OK, I have about 5 years and 400+ hours behind 4 different M14P/Housai
> motors. In that time I have NEVER experienced a problem starting the
> engine using nitrogen to charge the system. I have seen countless Yaks
> and CJs started with Nitrogen. I have never seen it fail...until this
> week.
>
> Problem child:
>
> Our esteemed RPA President brought his plane to Chino to be fitted with
> an MT prop before heading east to its new home in Florida. Out of
> respect for Drew's resulting new heartburn problem, I will not lament
> its other woes since arriving here. Needless to say, a Russian
> overhaul is not a US overhaul...period.
>
> So, Drew flew the plane at CNO, did 211 (or was it 212?) circuits to
> get comfortable landing the plane, and then pushed it into Steve's
> hangar for the prop change. After fixing the "overhaul" problems, the
> prop was on and the plane was ready to go. Steve pushed it out,
> charged the system with nitrogen, and proceeded to spend the next two
> days trouble shooting an engine that had zero problems the last time it
> flew. I was there at the end of day two, watching Steve go from tears,
> to a wrench throwing gorilla, to the most vulgar Hungarian I have ever
> heard. Poor guy was at his wits end. The engine was getting fuel, the
> mags were fine, cylinders were getting good sparks....literally nothing
> left to trouble shoot.
>
> "It can't be the Nitrogen, I start mine all the time that way and I've
> never seen a plane not start using nitrogen," I said. Steve agreed,
> "We do it all the time in Hungary." Well, it works with US nitrogen,
> it works with Hungarian nitrogen. Perhaps it was the Chino nitrogen?
> Do they fill their bottles directly from the dairy cow's arse? Oh
> wait, that's methane.
>
> Well, Steve calls Bill Blackwell yesterday and Bill reports the same
> problem starting a CJ just last week. What fixed it? Normal air!
> Keep in mind Bill is a guy that used to laugh at the notion that you
> can't start our engines with Nitrogen. He's never had a problem with
> it before, either. Vladimir would tell you the same thing...
>
> OK, so I'm highly skeptical based on my experience, but what the heck,
> it can't hurt.
>
> So Steve calls me and I tell him to go over to my hangar (I hate it
> when work gets in the way of watching other people's agony, err, fun!)
> and grab my scuba bottle.
>
> Long story short is it started...on the first blade!
>
> Gang, we have had many email strings talking about this and some
> (including myself) have scoffed at the notion that you cannot start
> these engines with Nitrogen. I have just witnessed this first hand and
> would like to apologize for discounting others assertion that Nitrogen
> can cause difficulties with combustion. I just witnessed it with my
> own eyes...well, sort of.
>
> So, mechanical geniuses, explain this one....
>
>
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
On Jul 1, 2004, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> www.darkhorizons.com/news04/040627b.php
>
> Have a look at that one...
Hollywood putting America, and the US military, in a positive light?
I'm aghast! I'm sure Michael Moore will be (is?) organizing picket
lines and attempting to get all that participated in the movie banned
from the SAG...
Cool lookin' space ship tho'...
B
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim and Vivian" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
Yak List
Did anyone come up with a source for the Russian Parachute.
Jim Selby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting]
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
> Dear Lister,
>
> Please read over the Yak-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
> Yak-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
> following URL:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Yak-List.FAQ.html
>
> Thank you,
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List Administrator
>
>
****************************************************************************
**
> Yak-List Usage Guidelines
>
****************************************************************************
**
>
> The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Yak-List.
> You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules
therein.
> Failure to use the Yak-List in the manner described below may result
> in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
>
>
> Yak-List Policy Statement
>
> The purpose of the Yak-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
> things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
> are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
> high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
> among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
> requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
> the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
>
>
> - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
> posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
> lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
>
> - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
> relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
>
> - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
> that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise
and
> terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
> responses.
>
> - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
> aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
> about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
> bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
> space in the archive.
>
> - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
> easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
> web page or FAQ first.
>
> - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
> your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
> easy to find threads in the archive.
>
> - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
> response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
> reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
> quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
> can not be overstated!
>
> - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
> then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
> "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
> response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
> your response with the original poster's email address.
>
> - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
> to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
> agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
> to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
>
> - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
> comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
> contribute something valuable.
>
> - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
> polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
> other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
> controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
> will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
>
> -------
>
>
> [This is an automated posting.]
>
>
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
On Jul 1, 2004, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> Define "properly maintained". And in who's eyes... yours? The FAA's?
> The
> former USSR's? Some of these questions might better be left unasked.
Well, using the FAA guidelines for experimental aircraft is a bit
scary. At a minimum I use the Chinese standards from the maintenance
manual. There's a lot of stuff in there that you would not be aware of
if you didn't take the time to read it.
>
>
>> I have yet to have an airplane for 5 years, but I don't screw around
>> with maintenance.
>
> So you fly in expert Chinese mechanics to inspect and fix your
> aircraft?
> Sorry... I couldn't resist.... but seriously, there are serious
> differences
> between a CJ-6 (or a YAK-50) and a Cessna. How did you determine the
> person
> DOING your maintenance was qualified?
>
> My answer to that is: I get a Russian mechanic to do everything out
> of the
> ordinary.
I'm pretty lucky out here in CA. I have Steve Kalmar on the
field...he's been around these things since he was a kid in Hungary. I
have Vladimir Yastremski a 30 minute flight away...the guy is an M14P
genius. And Bill Blackwell is in Phoenix, a two hour flight (which I
am making often these days for the L-39 business). Basically I
determined qualified people by asking lots of questions and getting
information from places like this list.
>> This I have seen...and so has Drew. Unfortunately his "completely"
>> overhauled 50 did not include those rubber seals. That being said,
>> wouldn't regular replacement largely mitigate this problem?
>
> Yes it would. But......When you have pulled both of those actuators
> out and
> have rebuilt them you will fully understand why his "completely
> rebuilt 50"
> failed to have that done. It is a very time consuming and pain-staking
> operation, and there are some serious questions as to the quality of
> the new
> seals that are being put in being that they are NOT "original".
Yes, and no....very definitely no. It is painstaking...but the plane
is down for overhaul and it is the easiest time to do it. This tells
me that the gear struts were not OH'd either. Having completely
overhauled the gear on my CJ, I know what the before and after look
like...and the before ain't pretty.
>> I had an I-3 (for about 3 months). It had hydraulic brakes. 3 times
>> I
>> lost effective braking power.
>
> Obviously then, it was not properly maintained. Or... it had a bad
> design.
> Sorry.... I am smiling by the way.
Clearly! I got an airplane that had a few issues on it. In the 3
months that I owned it, I flew it exactly one time after ferrying it
back from Colorado because of all the minor stuff that needed
correcting. The reservoirs for the fluid were a) different type for
each side, and b) experimental, as you suggested. Not that all
experimental parts are bad, but these were...
>>> But like you say, hey, it's your money. I replaced all the pneumatic
>>> lines and electrical in my entire airplane, so sanity isn't one of my
>>> strong suits!
>
> You rewired the WHOLE AIRCRAFT? You replaced ALL of the pneumatic
> lines?
>
> Ok... I admit it.... I'm impressed.
With my stupidity, I imagine. Actually, I don't think it is stupid,
but it's not totally necessary either. When I made the decision to gut
the airplane I figured I'd keep it forever and it made good long term
sense. It was done to US show quality standards and looks freakin'
beautiful. But you have to be into that kind of stuff...and typically
owners of our type of aircraft are not. Glad I enjoy it, because few
others take the time to notice...and it's where the bulk of the work is
in restoring the airplane!
From a functionality standpoint, I have reduced the weight
significantly (2200 lb. empty weight with M14P and a veritable plethora
of mods and add ons). I've also increased the reliability of the
electrical system...though it is not dual buss, unfortunately. You
have to stop somewhere...well, I did, anyway.
>
>>> For peace of mind I have American hoses and fittings where possible,
>>> but yes, they will get replaced at regular intervals. Doesn't
>>> everybody? I mean, that stuff can kill you....
>
> Actually no... everybody does not. In fact... I do not. So shoot me!
> I
> have Vladimir look at them every year and if one even LOOKS like it
> might be
> questionable, he replaces it. I admit that I could easily spend enough
> money
> on preventative maintenance to absorb my whole flying budget.
Well, IRAN is better than NIAHIHT.
> I think this matter is clearly a draw.
As it should be.
Brian, I'm amazed and impressed you stayed out of this one... :)
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Nitrogen/air starting |
1.0 FAKE_HELO_SHAW_CA Host HELO did not match rDNS": shaw.ca@matronics.com
--> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
Some thoughts on nitrogen and or air starting;
1. As the starting pressure is introduced in only one cylinder at a time after
top dead center to force the piston down, it should make no difference
nitrogen or air as the cylinder on the intake stroke is receiving air/fuel
mixture from the blower through the carburetor.
The compression stroke should therefore have the proper mixture.
This on the 285 Huosai engine.
2. The M14 engine starter distributor valve although similar is more complex, it
has a separate port to introduce pressure to cylinders 4,5,and 6 on the exhaust
stroke
to purge any residual fuel or oil through the exhaust valve.
If the distributor valve timing is not precise, some nitrogen may be left
in the cylinder at the beginning of the intake stroke diluting the mixture, air
would not
make any difference, obviously nitrogen would be a problem.
My theory anyway
Joe
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
I did some calc's using 5.9 to 1 compression ratio, 620 ci and ambient
air. With the volume of nitrogen that remains in the cylinders after a
cycle our drop of percentage of oxygen goes from 21% to 17.5%.. In order
to maintain our burn ratio of 14 to 1 we would have to lean our fuel by
16.6%. Conclusion: Nitrogen mixing with our fuel mixture is not the
problem. But, since the intake stroke is started with pure nitrogen in
the cylinders and this small volume remains there at the top of the
piston during the down stroke, then it could be possible for the
nitrogen to swirl to the top of the chamber during compress causing a
non combustible mixture around the plug at time of ignition.
IMHO
Jim B
>>> radialpower@cox.net 07/01/04 10:41PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
I don't want to take the time to go back and count, but anyone who has
been on this list for any length of time will know this is one of those
cyclical topics....NITROGEN!!!!!
<the entire subscription base gasps and moans>
Foundation:
OK, I have about 5 years and 400+ hours behind 4 different M14P/Housai
motors. In that time I have NEVER experienced a problem starting the
engine using nitrogen to charge the system. I have seen countless Yaks
and CJs started with Nitrogen. I have never seen it fail...until this
week.
Problem child:
Our esteemed RPA President brought his plane to Chino to be fitted with
an MT prop before heading east to its new home in Florida. Out of
respect for Drew's resulting new heartburn problem, I will not lament
its other woes since arriving here. Needless to say, a Russian
overhaul is not a US overhaul...period.
So, Drew flew the plane at CNO, did 211 (or was it 212?) circuits to
get comfortable landing the plane, and then pushed it into Steve's
hangar for the prop change. After fixing the "overhaul" problems, the
prop was on and the plane was ready to go. Steve pushed it out,
charged the system with nitrogen, and proceeded to spend the next two
days trouble shooting an engine that had zero problems the last time it
flew. I was there at the end of day two, watching Steve go from tears,
to a wrench throwing gorilla, to the most vulgar Hungarian I have ever
heard. Poor guy was at his wits end. The engine was getting fuel, the
mags were fine, cylinders were getting good sparks....literally nothing
left to trouble shoot.
"It can't be the Nitrogen, I start mine all the time that way and I've
never seen a plane not start using nitrogen," I said. Steve agreed,
"We do it all the time in Hungary." Well, it works with US nitrogen,
it works with Hungarian nitrogen. Perhaps it was the Chino nitrogen?
Do they fill their bottles directly from the dairy cow's arse? Oh
wait, that's methane.
Well, Steve calls Bill Blackwell yesterday and Bill reports the same
problem starting a CJ just last week. What fixed it? Normal air!
Keep in mind Bill is a guy that used to laugh at the notion that you
can't start our engines with Nitrogen. He's never had a problem with
it before, either. Vladimir would tell you the same thing...
OK, so I'm highly skeptical based on my experience, but what the heck,
it can't hurt.
So Steve calls me and I tell him to go over to my hangar (I hate it
when work gets in the way of watching other people's agony, err, fun!)
and grab my scuba bottle.
Long story short is it started...on the first blade!
Gang, we have had many email strings talking about this and some
(including myself) have scoffed at the notion that you cannot start
these engines with Nitrogen. I have just witnessed this first hand and
would like to apologize for discounting others assertion that Nitrogen
can cause difficulties with combustion. I just witnessed it with my
own eyes...well, sort of.
So, mechanical geniuses, explain this one....
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Nitrogen/air starting |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Joe Howse wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Some thoughts on nitrogen and or air starting;
>
> 1. As the starting pressure is introduced in only one cylinder at a
> time after top dead center to force the piston down, it should make
> no difference nitrogen or air as the cylinder on the intake stroke
> is receiving air/fuel mixture from the blower through the carburetor.
> The compression stroke should therefore have the proper mixture.
> This on the 285 Huosai engine.
I agree. I was going to make this point also.
> 2. The M14 engine starter distributor valve although similar is more
> complex, it has a separate port to introduce pressure to cylinders
> 4,5,and 6 on the exhaust stroke to purge any residual fuel or oil
> through the exhaust valve. If the distributor valve timing is not
> precise, some nitrogen may be left in the cylinder at the beginning
> of the intake stroke diluting the mixture, air would not make any
> difference, obviously nitrogen would be a problem.
I wasn't aware that the M14P was more complex. Thanks for the information.
Basically you said it at the beginning; if the system is working properly nitrogen
or air won't make a difference to starting since the pressure is injected
into the cylinder after TDC on the power stroke. If the cylinder fires the combustion
pressure will prevent the valve from opening and admitting the compressed
air/N2. The normal exhaust stroke will purge the cylinder of most air or
N2. (Remember, the air we breathe is already 80% N2 so the tiny bit left after
the exhaust stroke won't make a difference.)
So how could N2 purge the cylinder of all air so that it won't fire? I was thinking
of a leaking distributor that is allowing N2 to get into the cylinder during
the intake stroke. If enough gets in there fast enough, it would prevent
the cylinder from sucking in any fuel/air mix. No fire.
So my gut feel is that engines that will not start on N2 have some problem with
the starter distributor, either leakage during the time when it isn't supposed
to vent any high-pressure air into the cylinder or the timing is off and it
pressurizes the engine cylinder with N2 before the plug fires.
BTW, in the latter scenario, plain air would probably result in such a lean mixture
it wouldn't start either.
Can anyone think of a way that the N2 could get into the induction system and purge
the supercharger of fuel/air?
Here is something to try:
1. Turn off the mags and the fuel.
2. place your hand over the intake of the carb.
3. use the manual lever on the start solenoid to turn on the air to the distributor
so that the engine cranks.
The engine should suck against your hand as it cranks. If it doesn't, that means
that the air/N2 is getting back into the induction system, probably purging
it of fuel/air.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Nitrogen/air starting |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
Brian,
Are you talking about all the cylinders having the same type of leak?
One may not fire because of this, but not all.
Jim B
>>> brianl@lloyd.com 07/02/04 01:37PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Joe Howse wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Some thoughts on nitrogen and or air starting;
>
> 1. As the starting pressure is introduced in only one cylinder at a
> time after top dead center to force the piston down, it should make
> no difference nitrogen or air as the cylinder on the intake stroke
> is receiving air/fuel mixture from the blower through the
carburetor.
> The compression stroke should therefore have the proper mixture.
> This on the 285 Huosai engine.
I agree. I was going to make this point also.
> 2. The M14 engine starter distributor valve although similar is more
> complex, it has a separate port to introduce pressure to cylinders
> 4,5,and 6 on the exhaust stroke to purge any residual fuel or oil
> through the exhaust valve. If the distributor valve timing is not
> precise, some nitrogen may be left in the cylinder at the beginning
> of the intake stroke diluting the mixture, air would not make any
> difference, obviously nitrogen would be a problem.
I wasn't aware that the M14P was more complex. Thanks for the
information.
Basically you said it at the beginning; if the system is working
properly nitrogen or air won't make a difference to starting since the
pressure is injected into the cylinder after TDC on the power stroke.
If the cylinder fires the combustion pressure will prevent the valve
from opening and admitting the compressed air/N2. The normal exhaust
stroke will purge the cylinder of most air or N2. (Remember, the air we
breathe is already 80% N2 so the tiny bit left after the exhaust stroke
won't make a difference.)
So how could N2 purge the cylinder of all air so that it won't fire? I
was thinking of a leaking distributor that is allowing N2 to get into
the cylinder during the intake stroke. If enough gets in there fast
enough, it would prevent the cylinder from sucking in any fuel/air mix.
No fire.
So my gut feel is that engines that will not start on N2 have some
problem with the starter distributor, either leakage during the time
when it isn't supposed to vent any high-pressure air into the cylinder
or the timing is off and it pressurizes the engine cylinder with N2
before the plug fires.
BTW, in the latter scenario, plain air would probably result in such a
lean mixture it wouldn't start either.
Can anyone think of a way that the N2 could get into the induction
system and purge the supercharger of fuel/air?
Here is something to try:
1. Turn off the mags and the fuel.
2. place your hand over the intake of the carb.
3. use the manual lever on the start solenoid to turn on the air to
the distributor so that the engine cranks.
The engine should suck against your hand as it cranks. If it doesn't,
that means that the air/N2 is getting back into the induction system,
probably purging it of fuel/air.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Nitrogen/air starting |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
In the "for what it is worth" category:
I heard the story about nitrogen some years back and decided to give it a
try. I emptied both bottles, and filled them both with water pumped
nitrogen from bottles I wanted to empty anyway.
I then started the aircraft.
The only observation I can make is that maybe... MAYBE... the engine was
just a tad slow in starting. By this I mean... it usually fires on the
first blade if properly primed and pulled through. This time, it took about
2 blades before it caught.
I'd never hesitate to use nitrogen.
Mark
N50YK
p.s. And yes indeedy the M-14 starting distributor is a complex little
animal. And yes indeedy it certainly will make the engine spin BACKWARDS if
installed just the smallest amount out of "spec". And having watched one be
installed and finally made to work correctly after about 20 hours worth of
"in and out" exercises, I can say that only a crazy man would pull one out
just to look at it. Concur on the air into the lower cylinders through
another port in the thing. I saw that and could not figure it out and had
it explained to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Bernier [mailto:JBernier@dart.org]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nitrogen/air starting
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
Brian,
Are you talking about all the cylinders having the same type of leak?
One may not fire because of this, but not all.
Jim B
>>> brianl@lloyd.com 07/02/04 01:37PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Joe Howse wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Some thoughts on nitrogen and or air starting;
>
> 1. As the starting pressure is introduced in only one cylinder at a
> time after top dead center to force the piston down, it should make
> no difference nitrogen or air as the cylinder on the intake stroke
> is receiving air/fuel mixture from the blower through the
carburetor.
> The compression stroke should therefore have the proper mixture.
> This on the 285 Huosai engine.
I agree. I was going to make this point also.
> 2. The M14 engine starter distributor valve although similar is more
> complex, it has a separate port to introduce pressure to cylinders
> 4,5,and 6 on the exhaust stroke to purge any residual fuel or oil
> through the exhaust valve. If the distributor valve timing is not
> precise, some nitrogen may be left in the cylinder at the beginning
> of the intake stroke diluting the mixture, air would not make any
> difference, obviously nitrogen would be a problem.
I wasn't aware that the M14P was more complex. Thanks for the
information.
Basically you said it at the beginning; if the system is working
properly nitrogen or air won't make a difference to starting since the
pressure is injected into the cylinder after TDC on the power stroke.
If the cylinder fires the combustion pressure will prevent the valve
from opening and admitting the compressed air/N2. The normal exhaust
stroke will purge the cylinder of most air or N2. (Remember, the air we
breathe is already 80% N2 so the tiny bit left after the exhaust stroke
won't make a difference.)
So how could N2 purge the cylinder of all air so that it won't fire? I
was thinking of a leaking distributor that is allowing N2 to get into
the cylinder during the intake stroke. If enough gets in there fast
enough, it would prevent the cylinder from sucking in any fuel/air mix.
No fire.
So my gut feel is that engines that will not start on N2 have some
problem with the starter distributor, either leakage during the time
when it isn't supposed to vent any high-pressure air into the cylinder
or the timing is off and it pressurizes the engine cylinder with N2
before the plug fires.
BTW, in the latter scenario, plain air would probably result in such a
lean mixture it wouldn't start either.
Can anyone think of a way that the N2 could get into the induction
system and purge the supercharger of fuel/air?
Here is something to try:
1. Turn off the mags and the fuel.
2. place your hand over the intake of the carb.
3. use the manual lever on the start solenoid to turn on the air to
the distributor so that the engine cranks.
The engine should suck against your hand as it cranks. If it doesn't,
that means that the air/N2 is getting back into the induction system,
probably purging it of fuel/air.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Nitrogen/air starting |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Jim Bernier wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
>
> Brian,
> Are you talking about all the cylinders having the same type of leak?
> One may not fire because of this, but not all.
To be honest, I don't know. I am trying to collect information and do mental experiments
to see if I can think of a scenario that would cause the system to
fail with N2 but work with air. If the engine won't start with nitrogen but will
start with air it is because the fuel/air ratio is no longer within the combustable
range with the N2. That implies that the N2 is displacing the air or
fuel/air mix. Where? How? How would the nitrogen (N2) get introduced into
the cylinder in such quantities that the fuel will not combust and yet still
start with air present? Priming introduces a lot of extra fuel to the supercharger
so blowing air in there might still result in a combustible mixture whereas
N2 wouldn't (no O2).
If the leak were low enough level but was getting into all cylinders, even during
the intake stroke, it would prevent any fuel/air mix from getting into the
cylinders. But if it did that, you couldn't get it to start on air either because
the air would make for an extremely lean mixture that would be unlikely to
fire either.
<sigh>
Beats me.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Hi Doug,
I based my statement on the YAK-50 on the following information only, and
having flown only two 50's in my life, I could easily be wrong.
1. I read that the emergency bottle powered only the landing gear in a
translated Russian Manual. That in itself is clearly suspect since it was
translated, but interestingly enough, I have the manual IN RUSSIAN and it
might be translated AGAIN soon, so we'll see!
2. I was ferrying a YAK-50 to San Diego and it had a significant air leak
when the gear was placed down. Once the gear was down and locked, you had
only a small amount of time to get on the deck and get stopped. In Texas,
I didn't make it in time and ran out of braking air. For the heck of it, I
closed the main air valve and cracked open the emergency valve slowly until
it was full open. I still had no brakes, although I lost a lot of air from
that bottle too. This was pretty conclusive to me. However, there may
easily have been a change in design some where along the way. By the way, I
also had to prop that thing by myself to get it started again. Not a lot of
fun.
I'll throw this additional comment in as a safety matter for YAK-50 drivers.
In a YAK-50, there is nothing in any manual that I have ever seen that tells
you to put the gear handle back to the neutral position after lowering the
gear. But on the 52 there is apparently some mention of this. I have not
seen it, but I have been told there is. Comments?
The YAK-50 has a different gear actuator than the 52. The 50 actuator has
no locking "balls" and the gear is mechanically locked down with an external
lock.
If you are leaking a tremendous amount of air after lowering the gear (bad
seal), if you place the gear handle back to neutral, you will isolate the
landing gear system from the rest of the aircraft's pneumatic system, and
also vent any remaining air out of the actuators. During this time, the
engine compressor will refill your normal (and emergency if required) air
bottle.
NOTE: 50's fill the emergency bottle from the main compressor. 52's do
not.
You can actually land with the gear handle in the neutral position if your
air leak is so bad that you'd end up losing brakes before getting off the
runway.
I used this method to lower the gear, isolate the system, pump it back up,
put the gear handle back down for landing, then back to neutral once
stopped.... to keep enough air in the system to start it the next time for
the rest of the ferry flight.
Mark
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
Subject: RE: Yak-List: brakes
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Guys I have been following this with some interest, I find it hard to
believe that the emergency system in the 50 will not support breaking. My
Yak 18 which was built in 1956 and is many respects is the same as the 50,
has this capability. Are we sure that ALL 50's are constructed like this or
just your 50?? IMHO it makes little sense to set it up in this manner.
I'm afraid I'd be putting the diverter valve in if it were me.
Just my 5 cents worth.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Message 17
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| Subject: | Nitrogen/air starting |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
If one of the intake valves was sticky, especially when cold, would this
not cause the N2 to enter the intake manifold and subsequently the other
cylinders on the intake stroke? When one has N2 at 50 atmospheres,
presumably this would displace enough air at 1 atmosphere to prevent a
start? In other words, to saturate the intake manifold such that the
other cylinders suck in N2 only?
I am guessing here, not an engine bof. Maybe also the M14P fancy system
is more prone to this (separate port for 4,5 & 6 blowing into intake?)
BTW, also handpropped my Yak52 some months backs. First time I
handpropped any engine ever. A certain amount of trepidation! Had my
10 year old on mags and primer. He did a great job.
Jorgen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich
GS11 Mark G
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Nitrogen/air starting
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
--> <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
In the "for what it is worth" category:
I heard the story about nitrogen some years back and decided to give it
a try. I emptied both bottles, and filled them both with water pumped
nitrogen from bottles I wanted to empty anyway.
I then started the aircraft.
The only observation I can make is that maybe... MAYBE... the engine was
just a tad slow in starting. By this I mean... it usually fires on the
first blade if properly primed and pulled through. This time, it took
about 2 blades before it caught.
I'd never hesitate to use nitrogen.
Mark
N50YK
p.s. And yes indeedy the M-14 starting distributor is a complex little
animal. And yes indeedy it certainly will make the engine spin
BACKWARDS if installed just the smallest amount out of "spec". And
having watched one be installed and finally made to work correctly after
about 20 hours worth of "in and out" exercises, I can say that only a
crazy man would pull one out just to look at it. Concur on the air into
the lower cylinders through another port in the thing. I saw that and
could not figure it out and had
it explained to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Bernier [mailto:JBernier@dart.org]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nitrogen/air starting
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
Brian,
Are you talking about all the cylinders having the same type of leak?
One may not fire because of this, but not all. Jim B
>>> brianl@lloyd.com 07/02/04 01:37PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Joe Howse wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Some thoughts on nitrogen and or air starting;
>
> 1. As the starting pressure is introduced in only one cylinder at a
> time after top dead center to force the piston down, it should make no
> difference nitrogen or air as the cylinder on the intake stroke is
> receiving air/fuel mixture from the blower through the
carburetor.
> The compression stroke should therefore have the proper mixture.
> This on the 285 Huosai engine.
I agree. I was going to make this point also.
> 2. The M14 engine starter distributor valve although similar is more
> complex, it has a separate port to introduce pressure to cylinders
> 4,5,and 6 on the exhaust stroke to purge any residual fuel or oil
> through the exhaust valve. If the distributor valve timing is not
> precise, some nitrogen may be left in the cylinder at the beginning of
> the intake stroke diluting the mixture, air would not make any
> difference, obviously nitrogen would be a problem.
I wasn't aware that the M14P was more complex. Thanks for the
information.
Basically you said it at the beginning; if the system is working
properly nitrogen or air won't make a difference to starting since the
pressure is injected into the cylinder after TDC on the power stroke.
If the cylinder fires the combustion pressure will prevent the valve
from opening and admitting the compressed air/N2. The normal exhaust
stroke will purge the cylinder of most air or N2. (Remember, the air we
breathe is already 80% N2 so the tiny bit left after the exhaust stroke
won't make a difference.)
So how could N2 purge the cylinder of all air so that it won't fire? I
was thinking of a leaking distributor that is allowing N2 to get into
the cylinder during the intake stroke. If enough gets in there fast
enough, it would prevent the cylinder from sucking in any fuel/air mix.
No fire.
So my gut feel is that engines that will not start on N2 have some
problem with the starter distributor, either leakage during the time
when it isn't supposed to vent any high-pressure air into the cylinder
or the timing is off and it pressurizes the engine cylinder with N2
before the plug fires.
BTW, in the latter scenario, plain air would probably result in such a
lean mixture it wouldn't start either.
Can anyone think of a way that the N2 could get into the induction
system and purge the supercharger of fuel/air?
Here is something to try:
1. Turn off the mags and the fuel.
2. place your hand over the intake of the carb.
3. use the manual lever on the start solenoid to turn on the air to the
distributor so that the engine cranks.
The engine should suck against your hand as it cranks. If it doesn't,
that means that the air/N2 is getting back into the induction system,
probably purging it of fuel/air.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Nitrogen/air starting |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Jorgen Nielsen wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
>
> If one of the intake valves was sticky, especially when cold, would this
> not cause the N2 to enter the intake manifold and subsequently the other
> cylinders on the intake stroke? When one has N2 at 50 atmospheres,
> presumably this would displace enough air at 1 atmosphere to prevent a
> start? In other words, to saturate the intake manifold such that the
> other cylinders suck in N2 only?
Sounds good to me.
> I am guessing here, not an engine bof. Maybe also the M14P fancy system
> is more prone to this (separate port for 4,5 & 6 blowing into intake?)
That could be too.
> BTW, also handpropped my Yak52 some months backs. First time I
> handpropped any engine ever. A certain amount of trepidation! Had my
> 10 year old on mags and primer. He did a great job.
I just taught an 11-year-old to sail a dinghy. Lots of fun! At that age they
aren't too cool to enjoy playing with things like boats and airplanes.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Flying over densely populated areas |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Yakjock" <Yakjock@msn.com>
A heads up. Three of us here in Oregon have been preparing to do a flyover for
a July 4th parade to be held on Saturday, the 3rd. Planes included a Yak 11,
Yak 52 and CJ. The parade was to be held over the town of Hillsboro, a pretty
widely spread metropolis of about 45,000 souls. We received word from the local
FSDO that we could not fly over the parade due to the prohibition in our
Operating Limitations that specifies:
"Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely
populated areas or in congested airways, except when otherwise directed by
ATC or in an emergency situation. When exercising........"
The rumor is that someone did a low pass somewhere and there were complaints and
the FSDO is taking action against the pilot's certificate using the "densely
populated" clause as a basis. The guy at the FSDO that warned our group is a
friend of one of the pilots.
You may wish to reread your limitations and think about whether or not you would
be at risk.
Heck of a way to celebrate Independence Day!
Hal Morley
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Flying over densely populated areas |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
I guess that is why they require we strictly adhere to a "dead line"
while flying our aerobatics at an air show. No turns toward the crowd,
stuff like that.
Be careful. Respectfully, Rick B
>>> Yakjock@msn.com 7/2/2004 4:17:58 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Yakjock" <Yakjock@msn.com>
A heads up. Three of us here in Oregon have been preparing to do a
flyover for a July 4th parade to be held on Saturday, the 3rd. Planes
included a Yak 11, Yak 52 and CJ. The parade was to be held over the
town of Hillsboro, a pretty widely spread metropolis of about 45,000
souls. We received word from the local FSDO that we could not fly over
the parade due to the prohibition in our Operating Limitations that
specifies:
"Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated
over densely populated areas or in congested airways, except when
otherwise directed by ATC or in an emergency situation. When
exercising........"
The rumor is that someone did a low pass somewhere and there were
complaints and the FSDO is taking action against the pilot's certificate
using the "densely populated" clause as a basis. The guy at the FSDO
that warned our group is a friend of one of the pilots.
You may wish to reread your limitations and think about whether or not
you would be at risk.
Heck of a way to celebrate Independence Day!
Hal Morley
Message 21
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0.8 MANY_EXCLAMATIONS Subject has many exclamations
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Duncan aka Russ" <Duncan1574@hotmail.com>
Yes YOU! Who all is going to MTW/OSH (RPA115) this year? According to the
website, 4 of you and 2 for the formation training clinic (Flight 119).
Come on its July! Signup (special surprise for pre-registered pilots).
Russ "Air Boss" Witte-Dycus
North Central Event Coordinator
Red Star Pilot's Association
http://www.flyredstar.org
Message 22
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Avcraft" <avcraft@citlink.net>
Russ,
I registered online and it's not showing up! I e-mailed Deon and am waiting
to hear from him. So, consider me registered.
Keith Harbour
-------Original Message-------
From: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: HEY! YOU!
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Duncan aka Russ" <Duncan1574@hotmail.com>
Yes YOU! Who all is going to MTW/OSH (RPA115) this year? According to the
website, 4 of you and 2 for the formation training clinic (Flight 119).
Come on its July! Signup (special surprise for pre-registered pilots).
Russ "Air Boss" Witte-Dycus
North Central Event Coordinator
Red Star Pilot's Association
http://www.flyredstar.org
Message 23
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway@datatechnique.com>
I agree with Keith. I tried to register and the system goes blank.
COUNT ME IN. I will pay when I get there. I know at least two othere
coming and they are not registered either.
tc
>>> avcraft@citlink.net 7/2/2004 5:45:35 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Avcraft" < avcraft@citlink.net >
Russ,
I registered online and it's not showing up! I e-mailed Deon and am
waiting
to hear from him. So, consider me registered.
Keith Harbour
-------Original Message-------
From: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: HEY! YOU!
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Duncan aka Russ" <
Duncan1574@hotmail.com >
Yes YOU! Who all is going to MTW/OSH (RPA115) this year? According to
the
website, 4 of you and 2 for the formation training clinic (Flight
119).
Come on its July! Signup (special surprise for pre-registered pilots).
Russ "Air Boss" Witte-Dycus
North Central Event Coordinator
Red Star Pilot's Association
http://www.flyredstar.org
Message 24
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Jim,
I have two Russian chutes. $400 each.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim and Vivian
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly
Posting]
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim and Vivian" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
Yak List
Did anyone come up with a source for the Russian Parachute.
Jim Selby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly
Posting]
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
> Dear Lister,
>
> Please read over the Yak-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
> Yak-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
> following URL:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Yak-List.FAQ.html
>
> Thank you,
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List Administrator
>
>
************************************************************************
****
**
> Yak-List Usage Guidelines
>
************************************************************************
****
**
>
> The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Yak-List.
> You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules
therein.
> Failure to use the Yak-List in the manner described below may result
> in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
>
>
> Yak-List Policy Statement
>
> The purpose of the Yak-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
> things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
> are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
> high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
> among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these
> goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every
> member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been
> established:
>
>
> - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not
submit
> posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor,
long
> lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
>
> - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will
be
> relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send
> it.
>
> - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an
archive
> that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be
> concise
and
> terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
> responses.
>
> - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email
address,
> aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
> about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
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>
> - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
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>
> - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
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>
> - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
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> - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
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> - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
> polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally
attack
> other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
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>
> -------
>
>
> [This is an automated posting.]
>
>
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 25
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Bpx2horn@aol.com
I will be attending and paying when I get their. In addition I will also be
renewing my membership in RPA at OSH/MTW.
Paul Hornick
Message 26
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
I'll be there. I'll be there. BUT! The Federal Court says they want me for
jury duty. I trying to get out of it real hard.
Jim Goolsby
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
"The reason older men are like fine wine. When young, they are like grapes
until some woman stomps all over them."
Unknown older man.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Flying over densely populated areas |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley <kmmccarley@earthlink.net>
> The rumor is that someone did a low pass somewhere and there were complaints
and the FSDO is taking action > against the pilot's certificate using the "densely
populated" clause as a basis. The guy at the FSDO that warned > our group
is a friend of one of the pilots.
I think I may know of this and have looked at the plane involved. It suffered
a dented in leading edge from a beer bottle thrown at it during the low pass at
a lake shore and then went into hiding for many months.
There are other stories involved with this CJ as well.
Message 28
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ronald Kalemba <emu21@sbcglobal.net>
Russ,
Do to WORK conflict I plan on coming Wed. morning and have to leave after Osh
airshow Thurs.
See ya,
Ron Kalemba
EMU21
Message 29
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Yak52" <yak52@flyredstar.org>
Keith,
Thanks for pointing out this problem - I have been in Chicago working on a
project for the last couple of weeks and unfortunately did not spend enough
time testing the event registration pages before I left.
For all who tried to register for an event, please try again - the form is a
lot simpler now and you can select to pay at the event - down with PayPal.
If anybody run into problems with the website please let me know at
deon@flyredstar.org or admin@flyredstar.org and I will try and attend to it
ASAP. Since I do not have a test crew I rely on the RPA members to test the
site - thanks for the effort so far.
With Drew being away for a while and I'm in Chicago, it will probably take
another week or two (have I made this statement before??) for the online
store to open.
thanks for your patience,
Deon Esterhuizen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Avcraft
Subject: Re: Yak-List: HEY! YOU!
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Avcraft" <avcraft@citlink.net>
Russ,
I registered online and it's not showing up! I e-mailed Deon and am waiting
to hear from him. So, consider me registered.
Keith Harbour
-------Original Message-------
From: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: HEY! YOU!
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Duncan aka Russ" <Duncan1574@hotmail.com>
Yes YOU! Who all is going to MTW/OSH (RPA115) this year? According to the
website, 4 of you and 2 for the formation training clinic (Flight 119).
Come on its July! Signup (special surprise for pre-registered pilots).
Russ "Air Boss" Witte-Dycus
North Central Event Coordinator
Red Star Pilot's Association
http://www.flyredstar.org
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Flying over densely populated areas |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Yakjock wrote:
> Heck of a way to celebrate Independence Day!
Yup. This week they instituted a new policy of making sure that terrorists don't
get on the ferry between St. Thomas and St. John (it is a three-mile ferry
ride). We have new chain link fences and Gestapo to check people's papers as
they get on the ferry.
Yeah, this 4th of July let freedom ring.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 31
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Duncan aka Russ wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Duncan aka Russ" <Duncan1574@hotmail.com>
>
> Yes YOU! Who all is going to MTW/OSH (RPA115) this year? According to the
> website, 4 of you and 2 for the formation training clinic (Flight 119).
> Come on its July! Signup (special surprise for pre-registered pilots).
I might be there to instruct and ride in someone's back seat. We'll see.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
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