Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:04 AM - Re: Racing or a Derby? (Ernie)
2. 06:40 AM - CJ6-what? and other musings (Doug Sapp)
3. 06:43 AM - Re: CJ 6 starter button (Doug Sapp)
4. 06:58 AM - Re: CJ6-what? and other musings (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 07:03 AM - Re: Racing or a Derby? (Herb Coussons)
6. 07:42 AM - Low level Acro - Was the Racing Question (TC Johnson)
7. 11:29 AM - Racing alternates (Gus Fraser)
8. 12:36 PM - Re: CJ 6 starter button (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
9. 02:19 PM - Re: CJ 6 starter button (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 02:42 PM - Re: CJ 6 starter button (cjpilot710@aol.com)
11. 03:47 PM - Re: CJ 6 starter button (Doug Sapp)
12. 04:29 PM - Aerobatic Box Waivers (Rodger Modglin)
13. 06:19 PM - Re: CJ 6 starter button (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
14. 06:44 PM - Re: Aerobatic Box Waivers (Daniel Fortin)
15. 06:51 PM - Re: CJ 6 starter button (A. Dennis Savarese)
16. 08:11 PM - Re: Racing or a Derby? (Ron Davis)
17. 08:25 PM - Re: CJ6-what? and other musings (Ron Davis)
18. 08:31 PM - Re: Low level Acro - Was the Racing Question (Ron Davis)
19. 08:32 PM - Re: CJ6-what? and other musings (cjpilot710@aol.com)
20. 09:02 PM - leaking emergency tank (craig)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Racing or a Derby? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
The floor of the box was at 1500 ft, the top of the box at 3500 ft. So all
is legal with regards to the FAA the box was at MTW not OSH. The ICAS
unlimited Waiver just says that you can fly down to the ground in "WAIVERED"
airspace. Here at Leeward we have a box, floor at 1500 ceiling at 3000' The
reason we even need a box is because it lies inside a federal airway. You'll
read somewhere in the FARS about acrobatic flight within a certain distance
of an airway.
That ICAS card and a buck will get you a cup of coffee any other time. Just
like our FAST cards, the only time they mean anything is in Waivered
airspace. There is no law that says you cant fly formation without one, and
there is no law that says you need a box to fly acro. And if you have a box
there is no law that says an ICAS card allows you to violate the FARS.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Racing or a Derby?
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> The FAR says (in part):
> Sec. 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
>
> No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight--
> (e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or...
>
> That's the part that says you can't. Where is the part that says you can
if
> ICAS
> gives you a "recommendation card"?
>
> Question 2: Why would anyone ask for an acro box with a floor of 3500'?
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | CJ6-what? and other musings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Just home from China, have been up since 3AM because I am jet lagged to the
max so I am catching up on my emails and just could not resist responding to
the posting about CJ6 models numbers:
Heck guys, you want a CJ6-X or perhaps a CJ6-Y or Z, or the very latest
CJ6-X-99PDQ? no problem, they will call them anything you want, just send
your Yankee dollars and tell me how you want the bill of sale to read.
Guys, there is no airframe differences in my brand new CJ6, and the earlier
models. My B of S from the factory and CAAC reads Nanchang CJ6A. Fan and
CATIC are looking to stroke the ego's of the "rich Americans" who (in their
minds) all want to be one up on their buddies by owning the very latest
models. The "new" G is not something new and improved unless you feel that
a CJ6A which they have installed a small factory baggage compartment in is
new and improved. One last point, there are not (to my knowledge) any CJ6's
especially "made for export to the States". The Nanchang factory is not a
"factory" like you might expect wherein sheet metal and engines come in one
end and finished aircraft come out the other. All CJ's are only assembled
at the factory from airframe parts made at various locations in China,
engines in one factory, wings in another, airframes is still another. The
only thing that makes the new aircraft a bit different from the rest is that
recently the factory has started issuing different serial numbers to new or
remaned aircraft coming out of China, your serial number might be say
1132020 (7 digits), meaning that that aircraft is from batch number 11, was
assembled in factory number 320 (which is the Nanchang factory), and was the
20th aircraft in batch number 11. My factory new CJ has a serial number
consisting of 4 digits, 64-33, Hal Morley's CJ also has a 4 digit serial
number, I was surprised to find however that Rich Hess's "Mongoose" has a
totally different type of serial number (H2S001), the FAA records show
HONGDO AVIA INDUSTRY CO LTD as the manufacturer not the Nanchang Aircraft
Co., and it is listed as a CJ6, not an A, or G but a plain old CJ6, which as
we all know was a 260 hp aircraft---go figure. The 6 retired aircraft which
we are having remanufactured in China have also been issued the new 4 digit
type of serial number. What the thinking is behind these changes, or what
the new numbers actually mean I do not know.
One last observation on a totally different topic:
While in China the English version of the China Daily News and the Wall
street Journal were both reporting lines of people at banks in both Beijing
and Hong Kong, waiting to trade their US $ for Euros and Yuan. This is not
a good indicator guys. The US dollar has been the currency of choice for
years and they (Chinese) have been eager to accept greenbacks in payment
because they could take them to the black market and receive a 20% increase
when changed to Yuan, but now they are feeling so uneasy about the current
down turn in our economic situation that they are dumping the dollar for the
Euro and Yuan. Perhaps they feel that China will finally revalue the Yuan
at "normal rates" rather than the artificial low rate which it has in the
past. If the dollar continues to slide and they do revalue the Yuan we can
all expect aircraft and parts cost to go up markedly. My last 2 purchases
from Russia were made in Euros as the vendor would not accept US dollars.
One deal was "revalued" just before shipping because the dollar had markedly
moved, cutting into the vendors profit. Make of it what you will, but I for
one don't like the direction all this seems to be heading.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Thunderbolt
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yakkes-List
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Thunderbolt" <thunderbolt@home.nl>
Helleu Jeff,
Thanx for your quick response, both on mail and on the Yak-list.
And for explaining the CJ-alfabet ;-)
Nice looking site with exactly the info I was looking for and a great
looking CJ!
Is it ok for us to use pictures from the site?
Met vriendelijke groet, with kind regards, mit freundlichen Gr=FCssen,
Salutations amicales, Srdacan pozdrav, greetz,
Alex Smit
www.yakkes.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Linebaugh
To: thunderbolt@home.nl ; yak-list@matronics. com
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yakkes-List
Hello Alex!
Thanks for your note!
Check out our website...it explains all the history we know of our
airplane.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh
The CJ-6 came/comes from the factory in at least 3 versions:
CJ-6: airframe with HS-6 engine (260 HP)
CJ-6A: same airframe with HS-6A engine (285 HP)
CJ-6G: new airframes sold for export (usually without engine to the
U.S.)
Numerous CJs have been converted to the Russian M-14P engine (360
HP) and have been known coloquially as CJ-6P's. There are also
modifications available to increase range with additional fuel. You can add
the ER monniker to these aircraft.... Then there are a few with "glass
cockpits" and autopilots! ....so add a G and an A..... you end up with a
CJ-6PERGA... I can hear it now...guys at the next event bragging on there
"PERGA'd" Changs.
Its nice to know we have Yak friends in the Netherlands! Fly safe!
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
-------Original Message-------
From: Thunderbolt
Date: 11/21/04 05:27:23
To: jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
Subject: Yakkes-List
Helleu Yakflyer,
My name is Alex Smit and I live in the Netherlands. Recently I joint
the Yakkes Foudation. We fly four Yak-52's. In the wintertime we try to kill
time by creating the Yakkes-list. The Yakkes-list has to become a list of
all Yak-radials worldwide. Ofcourse we're starting off with Yak-52 but it
has to grow to a list of all types of Yak-radials.
On the Yak-list I saw you fly CJ-6P N621CJ.
Could you help me with some more info on the plane? Why is it a
CJ-6P? Info like constructionnumber and history of the plane, owner,
previous owners and maybe a good picture to add to the data?
And maybe you have info on more Yaks or their owners.
I will add all this info to the Yakkes-list that's not yet online.
But when it is it will be added to www.yakkes.com.
In advance I thank you very much.
Greetz, Alex Smit
Message 3
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| Subject: | CJ 6 starter button |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
The CJ5 /yak 18 uses the same start solenoid as the CJ6, I had the same
problem as you have described. First I played with the start timing (got a
real education, but no good results), next I cleaned and lubed the bugger,
even talked nice to the dirty SOB, Last effort was to replace all the
rubber parts and springs in it (now I've got you I thought). But it still
would leave me stranded when ever it took a mind to not want to function,
this was normally at air shows where everyone was watching, and waiting to
hear the mighty roar of the 5 cly (slightly bigger than a small John Deer
tractor) radial engine. After I had embarrassed myself 4 or 5 times I
finally gave up and did what any good parts seller would do......went to the
shelf and got a brand new shiny start solenoid and put it on and bingo no
further problems in over 200 hours.
Like in any solenoid there are windings inside, I am betting that there is a
bit of corrosion in there that is causing just enough resistance that unless
everything is just right (a full 24+ volts) it will not actuate the valve.
Just a guess on my part.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
It sounds to me like maybe your starter solenoid maybe sticking a little.
Try a little mouse milk or WD40 squirted in the little square opening (the
Chinese ones. They are round on the Yak built ones) on the side. You might
have a
little corrosion.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: CJ6-what? and other musings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Some excellent points Doug, particularly concerning the US dollar
devaluation against the Euro and the impact it is having and will have on
our airplanes and parts. I know I am certainly feeling it. For those of
you who do not follow it, today it takes approximately $1.3059 US to buy one
Euro. This trend started back in the early summer and has been getting
worse since. Here's a link for those who would like to see a graphic
illustration.
http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Subject: Yak-List: CJ6-what? and other musings
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Just home from China, have been up since 3AM because I am jet lagged to
the
> max so I am catching up on my emails and just could not resist responding
to
> the posting about CJ6 models numbers:
>
>
> Heck guys, you want a CJ6-X or perhaps a CJ6-Y or Z, or the very latest
> CJ6-X-99PDQ? no problem, they will call them anything you want, just send
> your Yankee dollars and tell me how you want the bill of sale to read.
> Guys, there is no airframe differences in my brand new CJ6, and the
earlier
> models. My B of S from the factory and CAAC reads Nanchang CJ6A. Fan and
> CATIC are looking to stroke the ego's of the "rich Americans" who (in
their
> minds) all want to be one up on their buddies by owning the very latest
> models. The "new" G is not something new and improved unless you feel
that
> a CJ6A which they have installed a small factory baggage compartment in is
> new and improved. One last point, there are not (to my knowledge) any
CJ6's
> especially "made for export to the States". The Nanchang factory is not a
> "factory" like you might expect wherein sheet metal and engines come in
one
> end and finished aircraft come out the other. All CJ's are only assembled
> at the factory from airframe parts made at various locations in China,
> engines in one factory, wings in another, airframes is still another. The
> only thing that makes the new aircraft a bit different from the rest is
that
> recently the factory has started issuing different serial numbers to new
or
> remaned aircraft coming out of China, your serial number might be say
> 1132020 (7 digits), meaning that that aircraft is from batch number 11,
was
> assembled in factory number 320 (which is the Nanchang factory), and was
the
> 20th aircraft in batch number 11. My factory new CJ has a serial number
> consisting of 4 digits, 64-33, Hal Morley's CJ also has a 4 digit serial
> number, I was surprised to find however that Rich Hess's "Mongoose" has a
> totally different type of serial number (H2S001), the FAA records show
> HONGDO AVIA INDUSTRY CO LTD as the manufacturer not the Nanchang Aircraft
> Co., and it is listed as a CJ6, not an A, or G but a plain old CJ6, which
as
> we all know was a 260 hp aircraft---go figure. The 6 retired aircraft
which
> we are having remanufactured in China have also been issued the new 4
digit
> type of serial number. What the thinking is behind these changes, or what
> the new numbers actually mean I do not know.
>
> One last observation on a totally different topic:
> While in China the English version of the China Daily News and the Wall
> street Journal were both reporting lines of people at banks in both
Beijing
> and Hong Kong, waiting to trade their US $ for Euros and Yuan. This is
not
> a good indicator guys. The US dollar has been the currency of choice for
> years and they (Chinese) have been eager to accept greenbacks in payment
> because they could take them to the black market and receive a 20%
increase
> when changed to Yuan, but now they are feeling so uneasy about the current
> down turn in our economic situation that they are dumping the dollar for
the
> Euro and Yuan. Perhaps they feel that China will finally revalue the Yuan
> at "normal rates" rather than the artificial low rate which it has in the
> past. If the dollar continues to slide and they do revalue the Yuan we
can
> all expect aircraft and parts cost to go up markedly. My last 2 purchases
> from Russia were made in Euros as the vendor would not accept US dollars.
> One deal was "revalued" just before shipping because the dollar had
markedly
> moved, cutting into the vendors profit. Make of it what you will, but I
for
> one don't like the direction all this seems to be heading.
>
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Thunderbolt
> To: Jeff Linebaugh; Yak-list
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yakkes-List
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Thunderbolt" <thunderbolt@home.nl>
>
> Helleu Jeff,
>
> Thanx for your quick response, both on mail and on the Yak-list.
> And for explaining the CJ-alfabet ;-)
> Nice looking site with exactly the info I was looking for and a great
> looking CJ!
> Is it ok for us to use pictures from the site?
>
> Met vriendelijke groet, with kind regards, mit freundlichen Gr=FCssen,
> Salutations amicales, Srdacan pozdrav, greetz,
>
> Alex Smit
> www.yakkes.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Linebaugh
> To: thunderbolt@home.nl ; yak-list@matronics. com
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Yakkes-List
>
>
> Hello Alex!
>
> Thanks for your note!
>
> Check out our website...it explains all the history we know of our
> airplane.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh
>
> The CJ-6 came/comes from the factory in at least 3 versions:
> CJ-6: airframe with HS-6 engine (260 HP)
> CJ-6A: same airframe with HS-6A engine (285 HP)
> CJ-6G: new airframes sold for export (usually without engine to
the
> U.S.)
>
> Numerous CJs have been converted to the Russian M-14P engine (360
> HP) and have been known coloquially as CJ-6P's. There are also
> modifications available to increase range with additional fuel. You can
add
> the ER monniker to these aircraft.... Then there are a few with "glass
> cockpits" and autopilots! ....so add a G and an A..... you end up with
a
> CJ-6PERGA... I can hear it now...guys at the next event bragging on there
> "PERGA'd" Changs.
>
> Its nice to know we have Yak friends in the Netherlands! Fly
safe!
>
> Jeff Linebaugh
> jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
> CJ-6P N621CJ
> Memphis, TN
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Thunderbolt
> Date: 11/21/04 05:27:23
> To: jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
> Subject: Yakkes-List
>
> Helleu Yakflyer,
>
> My name is Alex Smit and I live in the Netherlands. Recently I
joint
> the Yakkes Foudation. We fly four Yak-52's. In the wintertime we try to
kill
> time by creating the Yakkes-list. The Yakkes-list has to become a list of
> all Yak-radials worldwide. Ofcourse we're starting off with Yak-52 but it
> has to grow to a list of all types of Yak-radials.
>
> On the Yak-list I saw you fly CJ-6P N621CJ.
> Could you help me with some more info on the plane? Why is it a
> CJ-6P? Info like constructionnumber and history of the plane, owner,
> previous owners and maybe a good picture to add to the data?
> And maybe you have info on more Yaks or their owners.
> I will add all this info to the Yakkes-list that's not yet online.
> But when it is it will be added to www.yakkes.com.
> In advance I thank you very much.
>
> Greetz, Alex Smit
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Racing or a Derby? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Herb Coussons <drc@wscare.com>
Ernie and Pappy are right - I was wrong. 1500MSL to 3500MSL. I
believe the FAA requirement is no acro below 1500 and within 4 miles of
an airway? I won't commit to that unless someone backs me up.
Herb
On Nov 23, 2004, at 8:03 AM, Ernie wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> The floor of the box was at 1500 ft, the top of the box at 3500 ft. So
> all
> is legal with regards to the FAA the box was at MTW not OSH. The ICAS
> unlimited Waiver just says that you can fly down to the ground in
> "WAIVERED"
> airspace. Here at Leeward we have a box, floor at 1500 ceiling at
> 3000' The
> reason we even need a box is because it lies inside a federal airway.
> You'll
> read somewhere in the FARS about acrobatic flight within a certain
> distance
> of an airway.
>
> That ICAS card and a buck will get you a cup of coffee any other time.
> Just
> like our FAST cards, the only time they mean anything is in Waivered
> airspace. There is no law that says you cant fly formation without
> one, and
> there is no law that says you need a box to fly acro. And if you have
> a box
> there is no law that says an ICAS card allows you to violate the FARS.
>
> Ernie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Racing or a Derby?
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>> The FAR says (in part):
>> Sec. 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
>>
>> No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight--
>> (e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or...
>>
>> That's the part that says you can't. Where is the part that says you
>> can
> if
>> ICAS
>> gives you a "recommendation card"?
>>
>> Question 2: Why would anyone ask for an acro box with a floor of
>> 3500'?
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Low level Acro - Was the Racing Question |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "TC Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
QUESTION:
What about low level acro in a box like the one in MTW each year? It is
legal to perform low level acro since that is the sole purpose of the box.
Is this sufficient for the underwriters?
ANSWER:
Definately NO.
Big time No.
Unless,. ..
1) you have an ICAS low level waiver,
2) you are endorsed for IAC competition and practice, (Or Airshow for Hire) on
your insurance.
3) you are named on the FAA Waiver for the Box, etc. .
Terry or another ICAS Airshow person, .. can you expand on this??
The box is a very specific thing, and even if the FAA and ICAS have blessed you,
the insurance still needs to be endorsed for this.
Tj
**********************************
Thomas Johnson
Cannon Aviation Insurance
Ass't Vice President
Tel: 800-851-2997
Fax: 480-951-1455
Cell: 602-628-2701
E: tjohnson@cannonaviation.com
CHECK OUT:
http://www.warbirddirectory.org/
http://www.warbirddigest.com/
Message 7
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| Subject: | Racing alternates |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
Mark J has a similar thing on the boil.
http://www.airviolence.com/download.php?view.51
the main site for the 'sport' is at http://www.flyingaces.co.uk
Mark, how much fun was that ?
Gus
Message 8
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| Subject: | CJ 6 starter button |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Everyone seems to have put their 2 cents in about this darn valve, so I
thought I would be safe adding my experiences too.
I have the Russian version (YAK-50) which is also common to the YAK-52. I
have studied this valve many times, and the first thing I noticed is that if
you take it out of the aircraft (easy on the YAK-50... but NOT quite as easy
on the 52), and you apply 28 VDC to the thing....nothing seems to happen. I
was expecting some big WHACK from a very powerful solenoid needed to lift a
pin against 750 psi or so. Nothing. I spent the next several hours looking
at this thing and while I am not willing to BET on it... my study seemed to
show that the original engineering design actually USES air pressure to help
open the valve. The solenoid itself is rather small. The return spring for
this solenoid is very light too...again, given the pressures involved. It
appears that the valve is in fact a two stage design where the small
solenoid opens a tiny needle valve which in turn ports pressure to move a
much LARGER valve and this is what ends up actually porting the air down to
the starter distributor on the engine. Air escaping from the two stage
relief port (before it closes and sends air to open the MAIN port) is what
causes that loud POP you hear when first hitting your starter button.
The point is that a tiny amount of dirt in this thing will cause it to
become massively intermittent. I made a habit of removing the intake air
line and spraying WD-40 down it's throat once a year during the Conditional,
and this ended all my problems until about 4 years later when it finally
just got so sporadic that I knew I had to either really tear it down to
parade rest, or ... put in a new one. Carl Hays had a new one... but it was
a slightly different model (I have the actual part numbers somewhere). The
"slightly different model" does NOT have the external lever that allows you
to MANUALLY actuate the valve itself. I bought it anyway on a hunch that
turned out to be correct.
You can not take just the "lever" out of an old valve and install it into
the different kind of valve with NO lever.
But....... you can unscrew the new valve..... taking it apart right above
where the lever would usually go, and then screw in the BOTTOM half off the
OLD valve (the one WITH the lever) and poof... you have a new valve with the
old housing that has the manual start lever.
What about the solenoid and pin? They also come right out of the new
housing that you just screwed off, and slide right down into the original
housing that has the manual start lever. (The solenoid has no polarity...
don't worry about where the electrical pins for it happen to end up.) So...
you can basically take everything needed from a new valve without the start
lever and "rebuild" you old valve (per se) to make it 100%.
The manual lever is a bit tricky to re-install... so be VERY VERY careful to
note EXACTLY how it goes in there when you take it apart... and be aware
that the lever itself is held in with a small pin that will fall out and get
lost if you are careless taking the whole mess apart.
For what it is worth.... I have started my engine with only 14 volts on that
valve when it is in "brand new" condition. Anyone who has it fail to
operate at 20 volts, but work ok at 24 volts has... in my humble opinion....
a valve that is very close to failing at ANY voltage. The main solenoid
controlled pin will develop a "bevel" on it from many many reseats into the
valve. This bevel can cause a slight stick that requires every last ounce of
energy from the actual solenoid to overcome. Taking the valve apart and
using fine grit sandpaper to clean off this "burr/bevel" solves this
problem.
This valve is an item that any long term YAK-50 or 52 owner would be wise to
keep a spare of on-hand.
R/S,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
The CJ5 /yak 18 uses the same start solenoid as the CJ6, I had the same
problem as you have described. First I played with the start timing (got a
real education, but no good results), next I cleaned and lubed the bugger,
even talked nice to the dirty SOB, Last effort was to replace all the
rubber parts and springs in it (now I've got you I thought). But it still
would leave me stranded when ever it took a mind to not want to function,
this was normally at air shows where everyone was watching, and waiting to
hear the mighty roar of the 5 cly (slightly bigger than a small John Deer
tractor) radial engine. After I had embarrassed myself 4 or 5 times I
finally gave up and did what any good parts seller would do......went to the
shelf and got a brand new shiny start solenoid and put it on and bingo no
further problems in over 200 hours.
Like in any solenoid there are windings inside, I am betting that there is a
bit of corrosion in there that is causing just enough resistance that unless
everything is just right (a full 24+ volts) it will not actuate the valve.
Just a guess on my part.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CJ 6 starter button |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Very well diagnosed and an excellent explanation. You get an "A+" on the
airstart solenoid. Now for your next homework assignment, please
disassemble and describe the operating mechanism, correct timing procedures
when installed on an M14P, pitfalls if any during reassembly and
installation and finally, have this all completed for the Wednesday
Pneumatic Systems class. -)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich GS11 Mark G" <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
> Everyone seems to have put their 2 cents in about this darn valve, so I
> thought I would be safe adding my experiences too.
>
> I have the Russian version (YAK-50) which is also common to the YAK-52. I
> have studied this valve many times, and the first thing I noticed is that
if
> you take it out of the aircraft (easy on the YAK-50... but NOT quite as
easy
> on the 52), and you apply 28 VDC to the thing....nothing seems to happen.
I
> was expecting some big WHACK from a very powerful solenoid needed to lift
a
> pin against 750 psi or so. Nothing. I spent the next several hours
looking
> at this thing and while I am not willing to BET on it... my study seemed
to
> show that the original engineering design actually USES air pressure to
help
> open the valve. The solenoid itself is rather small. The return spring
for
> this solenoid is very light too...again, given the pressures involved. It
> appears that the valve is in fact a two stage design where the small
> solenoid opens a tiny needle valve which in turn ports pressure to move a
> much LARGER valve and this is what ends up actually porting the air down
to
> the starter distributor on the engine. Air escaping from the two stage
> relief port (before it closes and sends air to open the MAIN port) is what
> causes that loud POP you hear when first hitting your starter button.
>
> The point is that a tiny amount of dirt in this thing will cause it to
> become massively intermittent. I made a habit of removing the intake air
> line and spraying WD-40 down it's throat once a year during the
Conditional,
> and this ended all my problems until about 4 years later when it finally
> just got so sporadic that I knew I had to either really tear it down to
> parade rest, or ... put in a new one. Carl Hays had a new one... but it
was
> a slightly different model (I have the actual part numbers somewhere).
The
> "slightly different model" does NOT have the external lever that allows
you
> to MANUALLY actuate the valve itself. I bought it anyway on a hunch that
> turned out to be correct.
>
> You can not take just the "lever" out of an old valve and install it into
> the different kind of valve with NO lever.
>
> But....... you can unscrew the new valve..... taking it apart right above
> where the lever would usually go, and then screw in the BOTTOM half off
the
> OLD valve (the one WITH the lever) and poof... you have a new valve with
the
> old housing that has the manual start lever.
>
> What about the solenoid and pin? They also come right out of the new
> housing that you just screwed off, and slide right down into the original
> housing that has the manual start lever. (The solenoid has no polarity...
> don't worry about where the electrical pins for it happen to end up.)
So...
> you can basically take everything needed from a new valve without the
start
> lever and "rebuild" you old valve (per se) to make it 100%.
>
> The manual lever is a bit tricky to re-install... so be VERY VERY careful
to
> note EXACTLY how it goes in there when you take it apart... and be aware
> that the lever itself is held in with a small pin that will fall out and
get
> lost if you are careless taking the whole mess apart.
>
> For what it is worth.... I have started my engine with only 14 volts on
that
> valve when it is in "brand new" condition. Anyone who has it fail to
> operate at 20 volts, but work ok at 24 volts has... in my humble
opinion....
> a valve that is very close to failing at ANY voltage. The main solenoid
> controlled pin will develop a "bevel" on it from many many reseats into
the
> valve. This bevel can cause a slight stick that requires every last ounce
of
> energy from the actual solenoid to overcome. Taking the valve apart and
> using fine grit sandpaper to clean off this "burr/bevel" solves this
> problem.
>
> This valve is an item that any long term YAK-50 or 52 owner would be wise
to
> keep a spare of on-hand.
>
> R/S,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> The CJ5 /yak 18 uses the same start solenoid as the CJ6, I had the same
> problem as you have described. First I played with the start timing (got
a
> real education, but no good results), next I cleaned and lubed the bugger,
> even talked nice to the dirty SOB, Last effort was to replace all the
> rubber parts and springs in it (now I've got you I thought). But it still
> would leave me stranded when ever it took a mind to not want to function,
> this was normally at air shows where everyone was watching, and waiting to
> hear the mighty roar of the 5 cly (slightly bigger than a small John Deer
> tractor) radial engine. After I had embarrassed myself 4 or 5 times I
> finally gave up and did what any good parts seller would do......went to
the
> shelf and got a brand new shiny start solenoid and put it on and bingo no
> further problems in over 200 hours.
>
> Like in any solenoid there are windings inside, I am betting that there is
a
> bit of corrosion in there that is causing just enough resistance that
unless
> everything is just right (a full 24+ volts) it will not actuate the valve.
> Just a guess on my part.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: CJ 6 starter button |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Mark,
I agree with Dennis. Well, done! I think I just might include this in the
next newsletter under the Maintenance Section.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Message 11
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| Subject: | CJ 6 starter button |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Mark,
You may be spot on in your analysis of the problem. I have found that the
Yak 50 carries the exact same solenoid valve as the CJ6 EXCEPT that some of
the OVERHAULED Chinese valves have had the "lever" cut off them. Guess the
Chinese were afraid that someone would accidentally crank the engine over
while working on it, because all the original valves on the CJ6's have the
levers cut off flush with the side of the valve. However the NEW Chinese
valves have the levers intact, just like the Russian valves. I normally
have the new ones in stock.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bitterlich GS11
Mark G
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Everyone seems to have put their 2 cents in about this darn valve, so I
thought I would be safe adding my experiences too.
I have the Russian version (YAK-50) which is also common to the YAK-52. I
have studied this valve many times, and the first thing I noticed is that if
you take it out of the aircraft (easy on the YAK-50... but NOT quite as easy
on the 52), and you apply 28 VDC to the thing....nothing seems to happen. I
was expecting some big WHACK from a very powerful solenoid needed to lift a
pin against 750 psi or so. Nothing. I spent the next several hours looking
at this thing and while I am not willing to BET on it... my study seemed to
show that the original engineering design actually USES air pressure to help
open the valve. The solenoid itself is rather small. The return spring for
this solenoid is very light too...again, given the pressures involved. It
appears that the valve is in fact a two stage design where the small
solenoid opens a tiny needle valve which in turn ports pressure to move a
much LARGER valve and this is what ends up actually porting the air down to
the starter distributor on the engine. Air escaping from the two stage
relief port (before it closes and sends air to open the MAIN port) is what
causes that loud POP you hear when first hitting your starter button.
The point is that a tiny amount of dirt in this thing will cause it to
become massively intermittent. I made a habit of removing the intake air
line and spraying WD-40 down it's throat once a year during the Conditional,
and this ended all my problems until about 4 years later when it finally
just got so sporadic that I knew I had to either really tear it down to
parade rest, or ... put in a new one. Carl Hays had a new one... but it was
a slightly different model (I have the actual part numbers somewhere). The
"slightly different model" does NOT have the external lever that allows you
to MANUALLY actuate the valve itself. I bought it anyway on a hunch that
turned out to be correct.
You can not take just the "lever" out of an old valve and install it into
the different kind of valve with NO lever.
But....... you can unscrew the new valve..... taking it apart right above
where the lever would usually go, and then screw in the BOTTOM half off the
OLD valve (the one WITH the lever) and poof... you have a new valve with the
old housing that has the manual start lever.
What about the solenoid and pin? They also come right out of the new
housing that you just screwed off, and slide right down into the original
housing that has the manual start lever. (The solenoid has no polarity...
don't worry about where the electrical pins for it happen to end up.) So...
you can basically take everything needed from a new valve without the start
lever and "rebuild" you old valve (per se) to make it 100%.
The manual lever is a bit tricky to re-install... so be VERY VERY careful to
note EXACTLY how it goes in there when you take it apart... and be aware
that the lever itself is held in with a small pin that will fall out and get
lost if you are careless taking the whole mess apart.
For what it is worth.... I have started my engine with only 14 volts on that
valve when it is in "brand new" condition. Anyone who has it fail to
operate at 20 volts, but work ok at 24 volts has... in my humble opinion....
a valve that is very close to failing at ANY voltage. The main solenoid
controlled pin will develop a "bevel" on it from many many reseats into the
valve. This bevel can cause a slight stick that requires every last ounce of
energy from the actual solenoid to overcome. Taking the valve apart and
using fine grit sandpaper to clean off this "burr/bevel" solves this
problem.
This valve is an item that any long term YAK-50 or 52 owner would be wise to
keep a spare of on-hand.
R/S,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
The CJ5 /yak 18 uses the same start solenoid as the CJ6, I had the same
problem as you have described. First I played with the start timing (got a
real education, but no good results), next I cleaned and lubed the bugger,
even talked nice to the dirty SOB, Last effort was to replace all the
rubber parts and springs in it (now I've got you I thought). But it still
would leave me stranded when ever it took a mind to not want to function,
this was normally at air shows where everyone was watching, and waiting to
hear the mighty roar of the 5 cly (slightly bigger than a small John Deer
tractor) radial engine. After I had embarrassed myself 4 or 5 times I
finally gave up and did what any good parts seller would do......went to the
shelf and got a brand new shiny start solenoid and put it on and bingo no
further problems in over 200 hours.
Like in any solenoid there are windings inside, I am betting that there is a
bit of corrosion in there that is causing just enough resistance that unless
everything is just right (a full 24+ volts) it will not actuate the valve.
Just a guess on my part.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Message 12
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| Subject: | Aerobatic Box Waivers |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rodger Modglin" <rmodg@hotmail.com>
The aerobatic compentancy evalution (ACE) card is issued by the FAA for
performances at airshows in wavered airspace. It is required for aerobatics
at airshows and limits minimum altitude (Level I is ground) , aircraft type
and manuevers. The ICAS conductes the review and recomends issue but the FAA
issues.
Aerobatic box waveres (not air shows) can say what the FAA wants them to
say. They have to be read to know but most are from a maximum altitude to
ground. You can use the ground level if you want, the FAA doesn't care too
much if you kill yourself, just not others (one of the good features of the
FAA). The ACE card has no bearing on the standard aerobatic box waver. The
insurance companies do care and you need to read your policy. Not that you
will care as most likely you will be DRT if something goes wrong (dead right
there).
Standard aerobatics per Part 91 (not in wavered airspace) are limited to
above 1500 ft AGL plus the other rules.
Rodger Modglin
Message 13
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| Subject: | CJ 6 starter button |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Thank you Dennis (and Doug and Jim [Pappy!] and David!). I am gratified
that such experts found anything I wrote worth reading.
Dennis, you asked me to disassemble and describe the operating mechanism,
and correct timing procedures for something pneumatic on the M-14P. You
neglected to say exactly what, but based on a hunch, I'll wager money that
you were talking about the M-14P air start distributor itself.
My answer to that challenge Sir (if I happen to be correct) is simply this:
"Some things God intended man to be able to take apart and repair, and
others he did not". The air start distributor was obviously God's first
attempt at a Rubik's Cube.
Oddly enough, I happen to have had some experience with this invention of
the Devil. First, I know that if anyone ever takes it apart and puts it
back together and installs it...and the engine happens to rotate perfectly
on the first try... it is probably rotating backwards.
I watched a very experienced Russian mechanic take this thing apart.... and
I also stood by him for the next 36 hours as he attempted to get the engine
to rotate properly (in the right direction) when the starter was actuated.
During that time I learned that this device not only ports air to each
cylinder in the correct order... it ALSO sends a PURGE charge through the
bottom three cylinders during the exhaust cycle in order to help blow out
any OIL in the cylinders that happen to remain in there. And yes... it IS
possible to get everything to rotate in the proper direction, but have it
also scavenging the WRONG cylinders.
No Dennis... I'll stick with the starter valve. It has very few moving
parts, and no itsy-bitsy-tiny-little gears that only have to be out ONE
TOOTH to mess the whole thing up.
My advice to anyone with an oil leak on the M-14 Air Start Distributor
gasket is simply this: Clean it up very very well, and run a bead of 8802
around the thing to seal it. Or..if you like to live extremely dangerously,
lift it up just the smallest tiny amount and squeeze some sealant under the
edge and hope it stops the leak. If you remove it all the way.... you
probably won't be flying again for awhile (at least not in THAT airplane).
Dennis, if you really know how to remove and reinstall that thing
properly... on the first try.... you are a Wizard of the First Order and I
bow at your mighty feet!
R/S,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Very well diagnosed and an excellent explanation. You get an "A+" on the
airstart solenoid. Now for your next homework assignment, please
disassemble and describe the operating mechanism, correct timing procedures
when installed on an M14P, pitfalls if any during reassembly and
installation and finally, have this all completed for the Wednesday
Pneumatic Systems class. -)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich GS11 Mark G" <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
> Everyone seems to have put their 2 cents in about this darn valve, so I
> thought I would be safe adding my experiences too.
>
> I have the Russian version (YAK-50) which is also common to the YAK-52. I
> have studied this valve many times, and the first thing I noticed is that
if
> you take it out of the aircraft (easy on the YAK-50... but NOT quite as
easy
> on the 52), and you apply 28 VDC to the thing....nothing seems to happen.
I
> was expecting some big WHACK from a very powerful solenoid needed to lift
a
> pin against 750 psi or so. Nothing. I spent the next several hours
looking
> at this thing and while I am not willing to BET on it... my study seemed
to
> show that the original engineering design actually USES air pressure to
help
> open the valve. The solenoid itself is rather small. The return spring
for
> this solenoid is very light too...again, given the pressures involved. It
> appears that the valve is in fact a two stage design where the small
> solenoid opens a tiny needle valve which in turn ports pressure to move a
> much LARGER valve and this is what ends up actually porting the air down
to
> the starter distributor on the engine. Air escaping from the two stage
> relief port (before it closes and sends air to open the MAIN port) is what
> causes that loud POP you hear when first hitting your starter button.
>
> The point is that a tiny amount of dirt in this thing will cause it to
> become massively intermittent. I made a habit of removing the intake air
> line and spraying WD-40 down it's throat once a year during the
Conditional,
> and this ended all my problems until about 4 years later when it finally
> just got so sporadic that I knew I had to either really tear it down to
> parade rest, or ... put in a new one. Carl Hays had a new one... but it
was
> a slightly different model (I have the actual part numbers somewhere).
The
> "slightly different model" does NOT have the external lever that allows
you
> to MANUALLY actuate the valve itself. I bought it anyway on a hunch that
> turned out to be correct.
>
> You can not take just the "lever" out of an old valve and install it into
> the different kind of valve with NO lever.
>
> But....... you can unscrew the new valve..... taking it apart right above
> where the lever would usually go, and then screw in the BOTTOM half off
the
> OLD valve (the one WITH the lever) and poof... you have a new valve with
the
> old housing that has the manual start lever.
>
> What about the solenoid and pin? They also come right out of the new
> housing that you just screwed off, and slide right down into the original
> housing that has the manual start lever. (The solenoid has no polarity...
> don't worry about where the electrical pins for it happen to end up.)
So...
> you can basically take everything needed from a new valve without the
start
> lever and "rebuild" you old valve (per se) to make it 100%.
>
> The manual lever is a bit tricky to re-install... so be VERY VERY careful
to
> note EXACTLY how it goes in there when you take it apart... and be aware
> that the lever itself is held in with a small pin that will fall out and
get
> lost if you are careless taking the whole mess apart.
>
> For what it is worth.... I have started my engine with only 14 volts on
that
> valve when it is in "brand new" condition. Anyone who has it fail to
> operate at 20 volts, but work ok at 24 volts has... in my humble
opinion....
> a valve that is very close to failing at ANY voltage. The main solenoid
> controlled pin will develop a "bevel" on it from many many reseats into
the
> valve. This bevel can cause a slight stick that requires every last ounce
of
> energy from the actual solenoid to overcome. Taking the valve apart and
> using fine grit sandpaper to clean off this "burr/bevel" solves this
> problem.
>
> This valve is an item that any long term YAK-50 or 52 owner would be wise
to
> keep a spare of on-hand.
>
> R/S,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> The CJ5 /yak 18 uses the same start solenoid as the CJ6, I had the same
> problem as you have described. First I played with the start timing (got
a
> real education, but no good results), next I cleaned and lubed the bugger,
> even talked nice to the dirty SOB, Last effort was to replace all the
> rubber parts and springs in it (now I've got you I thought). But it still
> would leave me stranded when ever it took a mind to not want to function,
> this was normally at air shows where everyone was watching, and waiting to
> hear the mighty roar of the 5 cly (slightly bigger than a small John Deer
> tractor) radial engine. After I had embarrassed myself 4 or 5 times I
> finally gave up and did what any good parts seller would do......went to
the
> shelf and got a brand new shiny start solenoid and put it on and bingo no
> further problems in over 200 hours.
>
> Like in any solenoid there are windings inside, I am betting that there is
a
> bit of corrosion in there that is causing just enough resistance that
unless
> everything is just right (a full 24+ volts) it will not actuate the valve.
> Just a guess on my part.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Aerobatic Box Waivers |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
Roger,
Thanks for the info, I was quite certain when I read the waiver in MTW it
had no mention of minimum altitude nor of ICAS status. I was definately
below the 1500ft standard... :-)))))
Dan
>From: "Rodger Modglin" <rmodg@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Yak-List: Aerobatic Box Waivers
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:28:46 -0600
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Rodger Modglin" <rmodg@hotmail.com>
>
>
>The aerobatic compentancy evalution (ACE) card is issued by the FAA for
>performances at airshows in wavered airspace. It is required for aerobatics
>at airshows and limits minimum altitude (Level I is ground) , aircraft type
>and manuevers. The ICAS conductes the review and recomends issue but the
>FAA
>issues.
>
>Aerobatic box waveres (not air shows) can say what the FAA wants them to
>say. They have to be read to know but most are from a maximum altitude to
>ground. You can use the ground level if you want, the FAA doesn't care too
>much if you kill yourself, just not others (one of the good features of the
>FAA). The ACE card has no bearing on the standard aerobatic box waver. The
>insurance companies do care and you need to read your policy. Not that you
>will care as most likely you will be DRT if something goes wrong (dead
>right
>there).
>
>Standard aerobatics per Part 91 (not in wavered airspace) are limited to
>above 1500 ft AGL plus the other rules.
>
>
>Rodger Modglin
>
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: CJ 6 starter button |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
For whatever reason, that part of the sentence was deleted from my email.
You are 100% correct with your hunch. No wager necessary. It IS the air
start distributor.
Based on your response, I take it you are now willing to take an "F" for
your homework assignment. However, because you apparently a very honest
individual (and very wise I might add), I will graciously move your grade up
to a "C". Thus when you take home your report card you won't be grounded
(literally) for getting an F on this homework assignment. -)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich GS11 Mark G" <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
> Thank you Dennis (and Doug and Jim [Pappy!] and David!). I am gratified
> that such experts found anything I wrote worth reading.
>
> Dennis, you asked me to disassemble and describe the operating mechanism,
> and correct timing procedures for something pneumatic on the M-14P. You
> neglected to say exactly what, but based on a hunch, I'll wager money that
> you were talking about the M-14P air start distributor itself.
>
> My answer to that challenge Sir (if I happen to be correct) is simply
this:
> "Some things God intended man to be able to take apart and repair, and
> others he did not". The air start distributor was obviously God's first
> attempt at a Rubik's Cube.
>
> Oddly enough, I happen to have had some experience with this invention of
> the Devil. First, I know that if anyone ever takes it apart and puts it
> back together and installs it...and the engine happens to rotate perfectly
> on the first try... it is probably rotating backwards.
>
> I watched a very experienced Russian mechanic take this thing apart....
and
> I also stood by him for the next 36 hours as he attempted to get the
engine
> to rotate properly (in the right direction) when the starter was actuated.
> During that time I learned that this device not only ports air to each
> cylinder in the correct order... it ALSO sends a PURGE charge through the
> bottom three cylinders during the exhaust cycle in order to help blow out
> any OIL in the cylinders that happen to remain in there. And yes... it IS
> possible to get everything to rotate in the proper direction, but have it
> also scavenging the WRONG cylinders.
>
> No Dennis... I'll stick with the starter valve. It has very few moving
> parts, and no itsy-bitsy-tiny-little gears that only have to be out ONE
> TOOTH to mess the whole thing up.
>
> My advice to anyone with an oil leak on the M-14 Air Start Distributor
> gasket is simply this: Clean it up very very well, and run a bead of 8802
> around the thing to seal it. Or..if you like to live extremely
dangerously,
> lift it up just the smallest tiny amount and squeeze some sealant under
the
> edge and hope it stops the leak. If you remove it all the way.... you
> probably won't be flying again for awhile (at least not in THAT airplane).
>
>
> Dennis, if you really know how to remove and reinstall that thing
> properly... on the first try.... you are a Wizard of the First Order and I
> bow at your mighty feet!
>
> R/S,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:adsavar@gte.net]
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> Very well diagnosed and an excellent explanation. You get an "A+" on the
> airstart solenoid. Now for your next homework assignment, please
> disassemble and describe the operating mechanism, correct timing
procedures
> when installed on an M14P, pitfalls if any during reassembly and
> installation and finally, have this all completed for the Wednesday
> Pneumatic Systems class. -)
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bitterlich GS11 Mark G" <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
> <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> >
> > Everyone seems to have put their 2 cents in about this darn valve, so I
> > thought I would be safe adding my experiences too.
> >
> > I have the Russian version (YAK-50) which is also common to the YAK-52.
I
> > have studied this valve many times, and the first thing I noticed is
that
> if
> > you take it out of the aircraft (easy on the YAK-50... but NOT quite as
> easy
> > on the 52), and you apply 28 VDC to the thing....nothing seems to
happen.
> I
> > was expecting some big WHACK from a very powerful solenoid needed to
lift
> a
> > pin against 750 psi or so. Nothing. I spent the next several hours
> looking
> > at this thing and while I am not willing to BET on it... my study seemed
> to
> > show that the original engineering design actually USES air pressure to
> help
> > open the valve. The solenoid itself is rather small. The return spring
> for
> > this solenoid is very light too...again, given the pressures involved.
It
> > appears that the valve is in fact a two stage design where the small
> > solenoid opens a tiny needle valve which in turn ports pressure to move
a
> > much LARGER valve and this is what ends up actually porting the air down
> to
> > the starter distributor on the engine. Air escaping from the two stage
> > relief port (before it closes and sends air to open the MAIN port) is
what
> > causes that loud POP you hear when first hitting your starter button.
> >
> > The point is that a tiny amount of dirt in this thing will cause it to
> > become massively intermittent. I made a habit of removing the intake
air
> > line and spraying WD-40 down it's throat once a year during the
> Conditional,
> > and this ended all my problems until about 4 years later when it finally
> > just got so sporadic that I knew I had to either really tear it down to
> > parade rest, or ... put in a new one. Carl Hays had a new one... but it
> was
> > a slightly different model (I have the actual part numbers somewhere).
> The
> > "slightly different model" does NOT have the external lever that allows
> you
> > to MANUALLY actuate the valve itself. I bought it anyway on a hunch
that
> > turned out to be correct.
> >
> > You can not take just the "lever" out of an old valve and install it
into
> > the different kind of valve with NO lever.
> >
> > But....... you can unscrew the new valve..... taking it apart right
above
> > where the lever would usually go, and then screw in the BOTTOM half off
> the
> > OLD valve (the one WITH the lever) and poof... you have a new valve with
> the
> > old housing that has the manual start lever.
> >
> > What about the solenoid and pin? They also come right out of the new
> > housing that you just screwed off, and slide right down into the
original
> > housing that has the manual start lever. (The solenoid has no
polarity...
> > don't worry about where the electrical pins for it happen to end up.)
> So...
> > you can basically take everything needed from a new valve without the
> start
> > lever and "rebuild" you old valve (per se) to make it 100%.
> >
> > The manual lever is a bit tricky to re-install... so be VERY VERY
careful
> to
> > note EXACTLY how it goes in there when you take it apart... and be aware
> > that the lever itself is held in with a small pin that will fall out and
> get
> > lost if you are careless taking the whole mess apart.
> >
> > For what it is worth.... I have started my engine with only 14 volts on
> that
> > valve when it is in "brand new" condition. Anyone who has it fail to
> > operate at 20 volts, but work ok at 24 volts has... in my humble
> opinion....
> > a valve that is very close to failing at ANY voltage. The main solenoid
> > controlled pin will develop a "bevel" on it from many many reseats into
> the
> > valve. This bevel can cause a slight stick that requires every last
ounce
> of
> > energy from the actual solenoid to overcome. Taking the valve apart
and
> > using fine grit sandpaper to clean off this "burr/bevel" solves this
> > problem.
> >
> > This valve is an item that any long term YAK-50 or 52 owner would be
wise
> to
> > keep a spare of on-hand.
> >
> > R/S,
> >
> > Mark Bitterlich
> > N50YK
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ 6 starter button
> >
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >
> > The CJ5 /yak 18 uses the same start solenoid as the CJ6, I had the same
> > problem as you have described. First I played with the start timing
(got
> a
> > real education, but no good results), next I cleaned and lubed the
bugger,
> > even talked nice to the dirty SOB, Last effort was to replace all the
> > rubber parts and springs in it (now I've got you I thought). But it
still
> > would leave me stranded when ever it took a mind to not want to
function,
> > this was normally at air shows where everyone was watching, and waiting
to
> > hear the mighty roar of the 5 cly (slightly bigger than a small John
Deer
> > tractor) radial engine. After I had embarrassed myself 4 or 5 times I
> > finally gave up and did what any good parts seller would do......went to
> the
> > shelf and got a brand new shiny start solenoid and put it on and bingo
no
> > further problems in over 200 hours.
> >
> > Like in any solenoid there are windings inside, I am betting that there
is
> a
> > bit of corrosion in there that is causing just enough resistance that
> unless
> > everything is just right (a full 24+ volts) it will not actuate the
valve.
> > Just a guess on my part.
> >
> > Always Yakin,
> > Doug Sapp
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Racing or a Derby? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
The whole aerobatic reg follows. Note the definition- most pilots will tell
you aerobatic means more than 30 degrees pitch or 60 degrees bank.
Sec. 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight--
(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;
(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B,
Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal
airway;
(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional
maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an
abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal
flight.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: CJ6-what? and other musings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
If you think that's depressing, look at a chart of dollar vs euro for the
last two years. In Feb 2002 you could buy a Euro for 88 cents American. Now
it's 1.30 american.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Low level Acro - Was the Racing Question |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Don't pretty much all crashes occur at ground level? So if you start a spin
at 1501' and crash your insurance is valid, but if you start it at 1499' the
insurance is void....hmmm
and if you make a skidding turn in the pattern while a little slow and spin
in... hmmm
That's an interesting can of worms.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: CJ6-what? and other musings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 11/23/2004 11:25:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
l39parts@hotmail.com writes:
If you think that's depressing, look at a chart of dollar vs euro for the
last two years. In Feb 2002 you could buy a Euro for 88 cents American. Now
it's 1.30 american.
Hay When I was based in West Germany a litter of beer was 1 dm = $.25 Of
course that was a million years ago. :]
"Pappy"
Message 20
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| Subject: | leaking emergency tank |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "craig" <rupilot@nvbell.net>
I have a leak in my emergency tank, The tank drains down in about 6
hours.
The main tank stays up. I though I read here on the list to check the check
valve.
Where is this check valve at. or any other thoughts where this leak can be.
I have
check most of the plumbing but have found nothing. This is on a Yak 52tw.
Thanks for any sugestions.
Craig
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