Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:27 AM - working on experimentals (HodgeJW@aol.com)
2. 10:01 AM - who can perform "maintenance" ? (Jerry Painter)
3. 12:01 PM - Operating Limitations (Kelley Monroe)
4. 04:10 PM - Re: working on experimentals (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 04:29 PM - Re: working on experimentals (A. Dennis Savarese)
6. 04:39 PM - Re: Operating Limitations (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 05:26 PM - working on experimentals (HodgeJW@aol.com)
8. 08:37 PM - Re: Waycross FAST Clinic (Jay Land)
9. 09:45 PM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 12/23/04 (Ron Davis)
10. 10:24 PM - Re: Re:Legality of non-A&P work, ELTs now? (Ron Davis)
11. 11:05 PM - Re: who can perform "maintenance" ? (John W. Cox)
12. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 12/23/04 (John W. Cox)
13. 11:23 PM - GPS on ebay (Bob Black)
Message 1
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| Subject: | working on experimentals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: HodgeJW@aol.com
Dennis,
If part 43 applies to 1) aircraft having a U.S. airworthiness certificate,
doesn't that mean that my Yak has to have its work signed off by an A&P? After
all, my plane does have an airworthiness certificate, it just isn't a
standard category certificate, its an experimental/exhibition airworthiness
certificate. Just curious.
On another note, anybody out there have the carb heat horns and air box for
a MP 14 they want to sell? Thanks.
Jay
Message 2
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| Subject: | who can perform "maintenance" ? |
IMItemGuid: {83EFF878-E8DD-4EEF-9496-93D55F39E038}
0.44 FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS Outlook can't send HTML in this format
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Gents,
This discussion of who may perform maintenance and inspections on
experimental exhibition aircraft is interesting, but confusing.
Here's what I find in Title 14 CFR:
=A7 91.403 General.
(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for
maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance
with part 39 of this chapter.
(b) No person may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, or
alterations on an aircraft other than as prescribed in this subpart and
other applicable regulations, including part 43 of this chapter.
=A7 91.405 Maintenance required.
Each owner or operator of an aircraft=97
(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this
part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph
(c) of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of
this chapter;
(b) Shall ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries in the
aircraft maintenance records indicating the aircraft has been approved for
return to service;
=A7 91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding,
or alteration.
(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance,
preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless=97
(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under
=A743.7 of this chapter; and
(2) The maintenance record entry required by =A743.9 or =A743.11, as applicable,
of this chapter has been made.
=A7 43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance,
rebuilding, and alterations.
(a) Except as provided in this section and =A743.17, no person may maintain,
rebuild, alter, or perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft, airframe,
aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part to which this part
applies. Those items, the performance of which is a major alteration, a
major repair, or preventive maintenance, are listed in appendix A.
(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate may perform maintenance, preventive
maintenance, and alterations as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.
(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or
repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance,
and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the
supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary
to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily
available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not
authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125
of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or
alteration.
=A7 43.7 Persons authorized to approve aircraft, airframes, aircraft
engines, propellers, appliances, or component parts for return to service
after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(a) Except as provided in this section..., no person, other than the
Administrator, may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service after it has
undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate or an inspection authorization may
approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or
component part for return to service as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.
(f) A person holding at least a private pilot certificate may approve an
aircraft for return to service after performing preventive maintenance under
the provisions of =A743.3(g).
=A7 65.81 General privileges and limitations.
(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance,
preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part
thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major
alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of,
instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with =A7=A765.85,
65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive
maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any
aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has
satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has
not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do
it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the
direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a
certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific
operation concerned.
(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his
certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the
manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation
concerned.
=A7 65.95 Inspection authorization: Privileges and limitations.
(a) The holder of an inspection authorization may=97
(1) Inspect and approve for return to service any aircraft or related part
or appliance (except any aircraft maintained in accordance with a continuous
airworthiness program under part 121 of this chapter) after a major repair
or major alteration to it in accordance with part 43 [New] of this chapter,
if the work was done in accordance with technical data approved by the
Administrator; and
(2) Perform an annual, or perform or supervise a progressive inspection
according to =A7=A743.13 and 43.15 of this chapter.
=A7 91.409 Inspections.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may
operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has
had=97
(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has
been approved for return to service by a person authorized by =A743.7 of this
chapter;
(c) Paragraph (a) ... of this section do[es] not apply to=97
(1) An aircraft that carries a special flight permit, a current experimental
certificate, or a light-sport or provisional airworthiness certificate...
This last paragraph seems to be the source of confusion. Note that it deals
with "inspections," but not "maintenance." "Annual Inspection" is a term
of art used to indicate a specific type of inspection. Not all
"inspections" are "annuals." "Maintenance" is not to be confused with
"inspection" and vice versa.
Unfortunately, I am unable to find specific code language defining or
describing "condition" inspections, although we all know that in the
Airworthiness Limitations for our airplanes that is what is specified to
performed annually, and that the inspection is to be of the scope and detail
of Part 43, Appendix D. That limitation and language for our airplanes
comes from FAA Order 8130 page 142, paragraph 142, which deals with
certification procedures and suggested Airworthiness Limitations. It
specifies that no person may operate the aircraft unless it was given a
"condition" inspection in the previous 12 months and also includes reference
to the Appendix D criteria for the inspection. It also includes the
language to be inserted in the aircraft records indicating the "aircraft has
been found to be in a condition for safe operation". The certifying
individual must sign the certification and also provide the type of
certificate held and its number, just like for an "annual" inspection.
"Annual" inspections require the certification of an A&P mechanic holding an
IA. "Other" (which apparently includes condition inspections) inspections
do not require an IA.
Can anyone cite specific CFR 14 language that defines a "condition
inspection" and/or persons authorized to conduct such "inspections?"
Otherwise, it seems to me that "maintenance" is still a function requiring a
certificated mechanic, and that the yearly "condition inspection" requires
an A&P, but not necessarily one with an IA.
Hope y'all had a merry Christmas/solstice/"other" ritual and wishing you a
Happy New Year!
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0cs5r/index.html
425-258-4522 425-876-0865
=09
<http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id809&lang9>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Operating Limitations |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Kelley Monroe" <kelmonroe@comcast.net>
Experimental-Exhibition Flight Operating Limitations
Phase I Operations
13. Only FAA Certificated mechanics with appropriate ratings as authorized by 14
CFR part 43- 43.3 may perform inspections required by these operating limitations.
24. After successful completion of phase I, the aircraft will enter into Phase
II Operations. All operating limitations, including the following, will remain
in affect with the exception of 4,9,11, and 22.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: working on experimentals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
It's actually called a Special Airworthiness Certificate and no, that does
not mean your Yak has to have its work signed off by an A&P. An A&P is
required to sign off the annual condition inspection though.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: <HodgeJW@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: working on experimentals
> --> Yak-List message posted by: HodgeJW@aol.com
>
> Dennis,
>
> If part 43 applies to 1) aircraft having a U.S. airworthiness certificate,
> doesn't that mean that my Yak has to have its work signed off by an A&P?
After
> all, my plane does have an airworthiness certificate, it just isn't a
> standard category certificate, its an experimental/exhibition
airworthiness
> certificate. Just curious.
>
> On another note, anybody out there have the carb heat horns and air box
for
> a MP 14 they want to sell? Thanks.
>
> Jay
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: working on experimentals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Jay, I forgot to add,
Part 43.1 Applicability (a) begins by stating "except as provided in
paragraph (b) of this section. Paragraph (b) says "this Part does not apply
to any aircraft for which an experimental airworthiness certificate has been
issued..." The category and purpose (Section A of the Special Airworthiness
Certificate) are Experimental and Exhibition.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: <HodgeJW@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: working on experimentals
> --> Yak-List message posted by: HodgeJW@aol.com
>
> Dennis,
>
> If part 43 applies to 1) aircraft having a U.S. airworthiness certificate,
> doesn't that mean that my Yak has to have its work signed off by an A&P?
After
> all, my plane does have an airworthiness certificate, it just isn't a
> standard category certificate, its an experimental/exhibition
airworthiness
> certificate. Just curious.
>
> On another note, anybody out there have the carb heat horns and air box
for
> a MP 14 they want to sell? Thanks.
>
> Jay
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Operating Limitations |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
ABSOLUTELY correct Kelley. INSPECTIONS must be performed by FAA
Certificated Mechanics.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelley Monroe" <kelmonroe@comcast.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Operating Limitations
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Kelley Monroe" <kelmonroe@comcast.net>
>
> Experimental-Exhibition Flight Operating Limitations
> Phase I Operations
> 13. Only FAA Certificated mechanics with appropriate ratings as authorized
by 14 CFR part 43- 43.3 may perform inspections required by these operating
limitations.
> 24. After successful completion of phase I, the aircraft will enter into
Phase II Operations. All operating limitations, including the following,
will remain in affect with the exception of 4,9,11, and 22.
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | working on experimentals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: HodgeJW@aol.com
Dennis, Thanks for that clarification. I missed that part big time.
Jay
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Waycross FAST Clinic |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jay Land <jland@popeandland.com>
Shane
Any info on the gas prices?
Did you get the jet form manual? I also sent to Mike F
I am having 30 copies of the formation card made up and laminated
Thanks, Jay
> From: Shane Golden <scgsmg@direcway.com>
> Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:39:19 -0500
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Waycross FAST Clinic
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Shane Golden <scgsmg@direcway.com>
>
>
> Everything's ready to go for the AYS FAST clinic in Jan. At present we have
> 30 Yaks/CJs and 6 L-39's/L29's signed up. Here's the rundown:
>
>
> -Dates: 13 - 16 Jan 2005
>
>
> -Location: Waycross, GA KAYS FBO Manager: Jimmy Brown 912-337-9026
>
>
> -Rental Vans: Three 15 passenger rental vans will be available. You will not
> need a rental car.
>
>
> -Food: Friday night: Capt Joe's Sat Noon: FBO BBQ Sat Night: Cavagnaro's.
> All other times will be fast food and TBD.
>
>
> -Aerobatic Box: The request for an aerobatic practice box has been
> submitted and as for as I know we will have the box. Should be 6000' x
> 2400' SFC to 3500' MSL Adjacent and east of Rwy 18/36
>
>
> -Photographer: Bill Kirton will be available to take professional grade
> pictures both on the ground and in the air Sat. He can be reached at
> billkirton@accessatc.net.
>
>
> -Jet Parking Ramp: There will be a specific area set aside for Jet Parking.
> I'll have more info on this later.
>
>
> -AIR: There will be SCUBA tanks available as well as Scott Air Paks. I have
> a hose with the SCUBA and Yak/CJ connections. O2 and N2 will be available
> for the jets.
>
>
> -RPA Merchandise should be available for sale.
>
>
> -Hotel: Days Inn 912-285-4700
>
>
> -FAST STUDENTS: Please download and read the FAST manual from the RPA
> website prior to arriving at AYS. I will have hardcopy manuals available at
> AYS but if you need a hardcopy manual now send me your name and address and
> I'll get it on the way. The new version should be out shortly.
>
>
> FAST Ground School: The FAST Ground School will start at 0800 Friday Jan
> 14th unless otherwise noted. Thursday will be an arrival/practice day.
> (Might get some Check/Recc rides in too)
>
>
> FAST Ground School/Briefings: The ground school will be held in the
> conference room in the FBO, if this becomes too small we have use of the
> Fire Station located next to the FBO. The plan is to pull the trucks out
> and allow us use of the station for classes and briefings if needed.
>
>
> -Welcome Kit's: I have the welcome kits ready with registration forms, prop
> tags, maps, recc forms, etc. Please see me as soon as you arrive and we'll
> get that squared away. The fee for the Clinic is 75.00 for students and
> 40.00 dollars for anyone not attending the FAST ground school. This covers
> rental cars, materials, etc.
>
>
> -There should be both lead seminar and tactical formation seminars offered.
> I'll post the schedules as I get'em.
>
>
> Jim Goolsby and I will be arriving Wed. afternoon to set up.
>
>
> If you would drop me an email and let me know your planned arrival time.
>
>
> Y'all have a Merry Christmas!!!!
>
>
> Shane Golden
>
> SE RC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 12/23/04 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Lee Taylor wrote
>He signed off an annual last
>month, "Aircraft determined to be airworthy & Approved for return to
>service WITH THE FOLLOWING EXCEPTIONS-----" And listed three things to
>be corrected. (not airworthiness items) He is being nailed for a 3-mo
>suspension of his AI because he DIDN'T say "NOT approved". >
If the mechanic signed the above in a logbook, he messed up. If the plane
was an experimental he messed up more.
A certificated plane has to meet all of the requirements to be airworthy.
You can't say it is airworthy after you fix these three things.
If the plane was an experimental, he should have copied the wording in the
ops limits (when the plane had actually passed the inspection) and those ops
limits do not include the word airworthy. Experimentals are not airworthy.
Experimentals have to "safe for flight" to fly. Airworthy is defined as
built and maintained in accordance with a type certificate.
The ops limits also say carrying passengers or cargo for hire is prohibited
in most, if not all, experimentals. Do yours say you can't rent the plane
out? I've never seen any that had this prohibition.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RE:Legality of non-A&P work, ELTs now? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
It really shortens the argument when someone reads the reg and gives the
number so the others can read it. You're no fun at all, Rick.
Message 11
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"'Jerry Painter (wild.blue@verizon.net)'" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
| Subject: | who can perform "maintenance" ? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Jerry, I have looked through my pubs, the FAA Airworthiness Inspector
Manual 8300.10 Change 20 (dtd Aug 27, 2004) and found the only passage on
Conditional Inspections to be referenced in Volume 2 Chapter 25 regarding
Repairmen of Amateur-Built Experimental Aircraft.
Many owners/operators of amateur built aircraft feel this gives them the
right to conduct maintenance and conditional inspections because they own
the experimental aircraft. In specific fact, only an A & P or the lone
repairman (the individual who actually originally built it applied for the
one repairman certificate) and then performed such work could inspect the
aircraft during its life. Regardless of being a second owner or partner,
those individuals are out of luck - legally. Although these amateur built
aircraft have Experimental Airworthiness certificates they are not the same
as Foreign built Military aircraft flown in the US of A under an
Experimental Type Certificate. How's that for confusion.
Its my understanding on your use of FAR 91.403 that the owner/operator has
the responsibility to see the inspection is done but under 43.3 and 43.7 it
must be done by a properly certificated Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic (or
Approved Repair Station or the manufacturer). Just like it's the
Owner/Operator who makes the determination of airworthiness before placing
the aircraft in flight. Its not the A & P who did the repair. It's the
owner making the final decision to place the bird in service after repairs.
The FAA just revised old Order 8130.2E "Airworthiness Certification of
Aircraft" with 8130.2F on November 5th, 2004 to take advantage of rule
changes for the Light Sport Aircraft Category addition. I found Page 171,
Paragraph 159 (4); then Page 175, Paragraph 161 (sub 15,16 and 17) as well
as Page 176 Paragraph 161 sub(20) specifically addressing Mechanics who must
perform the required airworthiness inspection on Foreign manufactured
Experimental certificated aircraft. That passage references FAR 91.409
(e,f,g and h). Here is the URL
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/6AC
FE7E4181D16EF86256F4D006B29BE?OpenDocument
If you need PDFs on the exact passages, drop me a note. These are PDF pages
187, 191 and 192 of 345.
AC 20-65A makes for some interesting reading as well.
For the rest of you that knew this stuff, I apologize.
Oh Yeh, the private pilot owner can perform maintenance on his aircraft as
long as it is under the direct supervision of a properly trained A & P. How
about that for your subject line?
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Subject: Yak-List: who can perform "maintenance" ?
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Gents,
This discussion of who may perform maintenance and inspections on
experimental exhibition aircraft is interesting, but confusing.
Message 12
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| Subject: | RE: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 12/23/04 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Ron, I believe the words recommended are found on page 175 of Order 8130.2F
dated November 5, 2004 in Paragraph 161 sub (18)...... Condition inspections
must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records showing the
following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify that this aircraft
has been inspected on [insert date] in accordance with the scope and detail
of appendix D to part 43, and found to be in a condition for safe
operation." The entry will include the aircraft's total time-in-service, and
the name, signature, certificate number, and type of certificate held by the
person performing the inspection.
(Applicability: Group III under 800 horsepower)
Although the purpose is to confirm the continuing validity of the
Experimental Airworthiness Certificate, that means its still experimentally
airworthy, your right the words say its just okay for safe operation.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Davis
Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Yak-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 12/23/04
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
Lee Taylor wrote
>He signed off an annual last
>month, "Aircraft determined to be airworthy & Approved for return to
>service WITH THE FOLLOWING EXCEPTIONS-----" And listed three things to
>be corrected. (not airworthiness items) He is being nailed for a 3-mo
>suspension of his AI because he DIDN'T say "NOT approved". >
If the mechanic signed the above in a logbook, he messed up. If the plane
was an experimental he messed up more.
A certificated plane has to meet all of the requirements to be airworthy.
You can't say it is airworthy after you fix these three things.
If the plane was an experimental, he should have copied the wording in the
ops limits (when the plane had actually passed the inspection) and those ops
limits do not include the word airworthy. Experimentals are not airworthy.
Experimentals have to "safe for flight" to fly. Airworthy is defined as
built and maintained in accordance with a type certificate.
The ops limits also say carrying passengers or cargo for hire is prohibited
in most, if not all, experimentals. Do yours say you can't rent the plane
out? I've never seen any that had this prohibition.
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bob Black" <black@usa.sh>
There's a newer model GPS for sale on ebay. The bids look pretty low.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4513914376>
&item=4513914376
Has anyone used one of these?
Bob Black
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