Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:42 AM - Re: Checklist (cpayne@joimail.com)
2. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Checklist (Brian Lloyd)
3. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: Checklist (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Checklist (DaBear)
5. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Checklist (Ernest Martinez)
6. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Checklist (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: Checklist (A. Dennis Savarese)
8. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Checklist (Ernest Martinez)
9. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Checklist (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 07:29 PM - Re: Re: Checklist (DaBear)
11. 08:08 PM - Re: Are you a CFI part III (cjpilot710@aol.com)
12. 08:30 PM - Re: Re: Checklist (cjpilot710@aol.com)
13. 09:59 PM - Landing gear, checklist, etc. (Walt Lannon)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Re: Brian's list
Fine Points:
1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
"backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
this not so?
2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
are flying.
Craig Payne
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> <cpayne@joimail.com>
>
> Re: Brian's list
>
> Fine Points:
>
> 1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> "backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> this not so?
Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure in
the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
system.
If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is sent
directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
lever position.
Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
> 2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> are flying.
Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at all.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators, thus
relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air system
side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side. With
no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast and
literally slams into the down and locked position.
Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the main air
valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock the
brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after take
off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the landing
gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no green
lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed. ie:
the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve was
not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first, second
and third?
Happy New Year,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> > <cpayne@joimail.com>
> >
> > Re: Brian's list
> >
> > Fine Points:
> >
> > 1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> > Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> > "backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> > to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> > Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> > pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> > this not so?
>
> Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
> the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure in
> the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
> any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
> system.
>
> If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
> from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
> from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
> advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is sent
> directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
> lever position.
>
> Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
> this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
> emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
>
> BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
> at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
>
> > 2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> > checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> > are flying.
>
> Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at all.
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
>
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
From memory (I don't have my 52 or its checklist anymore)
1. Gear selector in the down position
2. Main Air On
3. Gear selector in the up position
Thoughts?
Al
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
>The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
>position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators, thus
>relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
>opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air system
>side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
>actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
>However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side. With
>no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
>emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast and
>literally slams into the down and locked position.
>
>Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the main air
>valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock the
>brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after take
>off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the landing
>gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no green
>lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed. ie:
>the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve was
>not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first, second
>and third?
>
>Happy New Year,
>Dennis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
>
>
>
>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>>
>>
>>On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
>>><cpayne@joimail.com>
>>>
>>>Re: Brian's list
>>>
>>>Fine Points:
>>>
>>>1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
>>>Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
>>>"backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
>>>to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
>>>Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
>>>pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
>>>this not so?
>>>
>>>
>>Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
>>the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure in
>>the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
>>any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
>>system.
>>
>>If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
>>from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
>>from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
>>advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is sent
>>directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
>>lever position.
>>
>>Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
>>this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
>>emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
>>
>>BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
>>at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
>>
>>
>>
>>>2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
>>>checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
>>>are flying.
>>>
>>>
>>Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at all.
>>
>>Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
>>brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
>>+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
>>
>>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
I would first put the handle to neutral, then open the main valve,
wait for the pressure to come up, put the handle in the down position
then up. Then do the "Pappy Bop" pulling negative and posive G's in a
porposing kind on motion while 2 watches in horror :)
Ernie
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:24:00 -0600, A. Dennis Savarese <adsavar@gte.net> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
> position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators, thus
> relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
> opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air system
> side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
> actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
> However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side. With
> no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
> emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast and
> literally slams into the down and locked position.
>
> Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the main air
> valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock the
> brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after take
> off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the landing
> gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no green
> lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed. ie:
> the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve was
> not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first, second
> and third?
>
> Happy New Year,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> >
> >
> > On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> > > <cpayne@joimail.com>
> > >
> > > Re: Brian's list
> > >
> > > Fine Points:
> > >
> > > 1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> > > Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> > > "backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> > > to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> > > Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> > > pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> > > this not so?
> >
> > Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
> > the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure in
> > the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
> > any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
> > system.
> >
> > If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
> > from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
> > from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
> > advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is sent
> > directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
> > lever position.
> >
> > Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
> > this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
> > emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
> >
> > BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
> > at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
> >
> > > 2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> > > checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> > > are flying.
> >
> > Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at all.
> >
> > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> > brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> > +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
> >
> > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> > Antoine de Saint-Exupry
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Al,
Grading your answers -
1- Correct
2- Correct
3- Correct
Can you explain to the group why your answer to #1 is correct?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> --> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
>
> From memory (I don't have my 52 or its checklist anymore)
>
> 1. Gear selector in the down position
> 2. Main Air On
> 3. Gear selector in the up position
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Al
>
> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >
> >The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
> >position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators, thus
> >relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
> >opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air
system
> >side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
> >actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
> >However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side.
With
> >no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
> >emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast
and
> >literally slams into the down and locked position.
> >
> >Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the main
air
> >valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock the
> >brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after
take
> >off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the
landing
> >gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no
green
> >lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed.
ie:
> >the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve
was
> >not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first,
second
> >and third?
> >
> >Happy New Year,
> >Dennis
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
> >To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> >>><cpayne@joimail.com>
> >>>
> >>>Re: Brian's list
> >>>
> >>>Fine Points:
> >>>
> >>>1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> >>>Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> >>>"backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> >>>to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> >>>Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> >>>pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> >>>this not so?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
> >>the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure in
> >>the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
> >>any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
> >>system.
> >>
> >>If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
> >>from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
> >>from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
> >>advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is sent
> >>directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
> >>lever position.
> >>
> >>Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
> >>this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
> >>emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
> >>
> >>BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
> >>at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> >>>checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> >>>are flying.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at all.
> >>
> >>Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> >>brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> >>+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
> >>
> >>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> >> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Ernie,
Assuming the actuators on the CJ function the same way as the 52, grading
your answers -
"I would first put the handle to neutral" - INCORRECT
"then open the main valve" - CORRECT
"wait for the pressure to come up" - PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT PRESSURE YOU WOULD
BE WAITING FOR TO COME UP?
"put the handle in the down position then up." INCORRECT
"Then do the "Pappy Bop" pulling negative and posive G's in a porposing kind
on motion while 2 watches in horror :) - 100% CORRECT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> I would first put the handle to neutral, then open the main valve,
> wait for the pressure to come up, put the handle in the down position
> then up. Then do the "Pappy Bop" pulling negative and posive G's in a
> porposing kind on motion while 2 watches in horror :)
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:24:00 -0600, A. Dennis Savarese <adsavar@gte.net>
wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >
> > The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
> > position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators,
thus
> > relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
> > opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air
system
> > side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
> > actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
> > However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side.
With
> > no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
> > emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast
and
> > literally slams into the down and locked position.
> >
> > Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the main
air
> > valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock the
> > brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after
take
> > off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the
landing
> > gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no
green
> > lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed.
ie:
> > the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve
was
> > not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first,
second
> > and third?
> >
> > Happy New Year,
> > Dennis
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> > > > <cpayne@joimail.com>
> > > >
> > > > Re: Brian's list
> > > >
> > > > Fine Points:
> > > >
> > > > 1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> > > > Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> > > > "backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> > > > to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> > > > Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> > > > pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> > > > this not so?
> > >
> > > Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
> > > the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure
in
> > > the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
> > > any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
> > > system.
> > >
> > > If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
> > > from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
> > > from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
> > > advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is
sent
> > > directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
> > > lever position.
> > >
> > > Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
> > > this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
> > > emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
> > >
> > > BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
> > > at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
> > >
> > > > 2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> > > > checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> > > > are flying.
> > >
> > > Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at
all.
> > >
> > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> > > brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> > > +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
> > >
> > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . .
.
> > > Antoine de Saint-Exupry
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
I had to re-read your initial post. I was still in the "0" air in the
system frame of mind. Your example just cited that I had forgotten to
open the air valve before starting. So in that case there is nothing
to wait for to come up and the handle should in fact just be down as
if I was on the ground.
Ernie
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:46:09 -0600, A. Dennis Savarese <adsavar@gte.net> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> Ernie,
> Assuming the actuators on the CJ function the same way as the 52, grading
> your answers -
> "I would first put the handle to neutral" - INCORRECT
> "then open the main valve" - CORRECT
> "wait for the pressure to come up" - PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT PRESSURE YOU WOULD
> BE WAITING FOR TO COME UP?
> "put the handle in the down position then up." INCORRECT
> "Then do the "Pappy Bop" pulling negative and posive G's in a porposing kind
> on motion while 2 watches in horror :) - 100% CORRECT.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> >
> > I would first put the handle to neutral, then open the main valve,
> > wait for the pressure to come up, put the handle in the down position
> > then up. Then do the "Pappy Bop" pulling negative and posive G's in a
> > porposing kind on motion while 2 watches in horror :)
> >
> > Ernie
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:24:00 -0600, A. Dennis Savarese <adsavar@gte.net>
> wrote:
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> > >
> > > The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
> > > position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators,
> thus
> > > relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
> > > opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air
> system
> > > side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
> > > actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
> > > However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side.
> With
> > > no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
> > > emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast
> and
> > > literally slams into the down and locked position.
> > >
> > > Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the main
> air
> > > valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock the
> > > brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after
> take
> > > off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the
> landing
> > > gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no
> green
> > > lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed.
> ie:
> > > the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve
> was
> > > not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first,
> second
> > > and third?
> > >
> > > Happy New Year,
> > > Dennis
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
> > > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> > >
> > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> > > > > <cpayne@joimail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Re: Brian's list
> > > > >
> > > > > Fine Points:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> > > > > Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> > > > > "backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> > > > > to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> > > > > Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> > > > > pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> > > > > this not so?
> > > >
> > > > Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
> > > > the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure
> in
> > > > the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
> > > > any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
> > > > system.
> > > >
> > > > If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
> > > > from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
> > > > from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
> > > > advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is
> sent
> > > > directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
> > > > lever position.
> > > >
> > > > Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
> > > > this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
> > > > emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
> > > > at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
> > > >
> > > > > 2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> > > > > checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> > > > > are flying.
> > > >
> > > > Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at
> all.
> > > >
> > > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> > > > brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> > > > +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
> > > >
> > > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . .
> .
> > > > Antoine de Saint-Exupry
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
But in my original question I said you had just taken off and moved the gear
handle to the UP position. Now you had no red or green lights indicating
the gear was UP or DOWN. So the gear handle is now in the UP position, not
in the DOWN position.
"...after take off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you
notice the landing gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now
you have no green lights and no red lights and the poles are now only
partially exposed. ie:
the gear is just hanging in limbo."
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> I had to re-read your initial post. I was still in the "0" air in the
> system frame of mind. Your example just cited that I had forgotten to
> open the air valve before starting. So in that case there is nothing
> to wait for to come up and the handle should in fact just be down as
> if I was on the ground.
>
> Ernie
>
> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:46:09 -0600, A. Dennis Savarese <adsavar@gte.net>
wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >
> > Ernie,
> > Assuming the actuators on the CJ function the same way as the 52,
grading
> > your answers -
> > "I would first put the handle to neutral" - INCORRECT
> > "then open the main valve" - CORRECT
> > "wait for the pressure to come up" - PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT PRESSURE YOU
WOULD
> > BE WAITING FOR TO COME UP?
> > "put the handle in the down position then up." INCORRECT
> > "Then do the "Pappy Bop" pulling negative and posive G's in a porposing
kind
> > on motion while 2 watches in horror :) - 100% CORRECT.
> > Dennis
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > I would first put the handle to neutral, then open the main valve,
> > > wait for the pressure to come up, put the handle in the down position
> > > then up. Then do the "Pappy Bop" pulling negative and posive G's in a
> > > porposing kind on motion while 2 watches in horror :)
> > >
> > > Ernie
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:24:00 -0600, A. Dennis Savarese
<adsavar@gte.net>
> > wrote:
> > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
<adsavar@gte.net>
> > > >
> > > > The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
> > > > position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators,
> > thus
> > > > relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob
is
> > > > opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main
air
> > system
> > > > side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
> > > > actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
> > > > However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system
side.
> > With
> > > > no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
> > > > emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very
fast
> > and
> > > > literally slams into the down and locked position.
> > > >
> > > > Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the
main
> > air
> > > > valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock
the
> > > > brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this),
after
> > take
> > > > off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the
> > landing
> > > > gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have
no
> > green
> > > > lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially
exposed.
> > ie:
> > > > the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air
valve
> > was
> > > > not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first,
> > second
> > > > and third?
> > > >
> > > > Happy New Year,
> > > > Dennis
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
> > > > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> > > >
> > > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> > > > > > <cpayne@joimail.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re: Brian's list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fine Points:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> > > > > > Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> > > > > > "backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> > > > > > to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> > > > > > Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> > > > > > pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> > > > > > this not so?
> > > > >
> > > > > Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and
placing
> > > > > the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the
pressure
> > in
> > > > > the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally
without
> > > > > any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of
the
> > > > > system.
> > > > >
> > > > > If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal
behavior
> > > > > from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system,
not
> > > > > from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to
work as
> > > > > advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is
> > sent
> > > > > directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the
gear
> > > > > lever position.
> > > > >
> > > > > Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before
writing
> > > > > this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
> > > > > emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still
available
> > > > > at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> > > > > > checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> > > > > > are flying.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at
> > all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> > > > > brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> > > > > +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
> > > > >
> > > > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things
. .
> > .
> > > > > Antoine de Saint-Exupry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
Since you stated the gear handle was moved to the up position and then
you noticed no air pressure, the gear handle was in the up position to
start. Prior to opening the main air valve, I'd want to move the gear
handle to the the down position so that it would "slam" up.
Al
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
>Al,
>Grading your answers -
>1- Correct
>2- Correct
>3- Correct
>
>Can you explain to the group why your answer to #1 is correct?
>Dennis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
>
>
>
>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
>>
>> From memory (I don't have my 52 or its checklist anymore)
>>
>>1. Gear selector in the down position
>>2. Main Air On
>>3. Gear selector in the up position
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>Al
>>
>>A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>>>
>>>The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
>>>position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators, thus
>>>relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
>>>opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air
>>>
>>>
>system
>
>
>>>side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
>>>actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
>>>However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side.
>>>
>>>
>With
>
>
>>>no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
>>>emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast
>>>
>>>
>and
>
>
>>>literally slams into the down and locked position.
>>>
>>>Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the main
>>>
>>>
>air
>
>
>>>valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock the
>>>brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after
>>>
>>>
>take
>
>
>>>off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the
>>>
>>>
>landing
>
>
>>>gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no
>>>
>>>
>green
>
>
>>>lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed.
>>>
>>>
>ie:
>
>
>>>the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve
>>>
>>>
>was
>
>
>>>not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first,
>>>
>>>
>second
>
>
>>>and third?
>>>
>>>Happy New Year,
>>>Dennis
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
>>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
>>>>><cpayne@joimail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>Re: Brian's list
>>>>>
>>>>>Fine Points:
>>>>>
>>>>>1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
>>>>>Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
>>>>>"backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
>>>>>to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
>>>>>Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
>>>>>pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
>>>>>this not so?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
>>>>the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure in
>>>>the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
>>>>any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
>>>>system.
>>>>
>>>>If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
>>>>from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
>>>
>>>
>>>>advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is sent
>>>>directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
>>>>lever position.
>>>>
>>>>Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
>>>>this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
>>>>emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
>>>>
>>>>BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
>>>>at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
>>>>>checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
>>>>>are flying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at all.
>>>>
>>>>Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
>>>>brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
>>>>+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
>>>>
>>>>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>>>>Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Are you a CFI part III |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 12/29/2004 1:48:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lacloudchaser@yahoo.com writes:
Drew,
Jeff Linebaugh, worked up an excellent syllabus and check list a number of
months ago. Being that he was judged as one of the USAF top flight instructors,
I think he would be the one to approach. He was involved with setting not
only the USAF flight syllabuses but that of a major international flight school
in CA.
We have the talent in this organization already. We simply need to get a
decent syllabus out to the flight instructors to follow. We can also put in a
one or two hours systems class into each clinic with the subject matter entirely
centered on gear/air system. Again just going over the different check list
as a group would make a world of difference.
How to keep track of who gets it should (to me) be left up to the insurance
companies. We can't possibly keep track of who owns what when it comes to
aircraft. The insurance company can simply not write a policy until the customer
gets a check out. I really believe that Linebaugh's syllabus would be the
best and is the best one I've ever seen. As I said we just need to get it to the
instructors who volunteer and we know will teach from it.
Instituting cockpit call outs at specific profile points in the approach. I
personally use "Sticks, 3 green, latched, pressure" on the base leg.
Mandatory radio calls on final will confuse most civil control towers, but screw
them,
just do it. This would be easy to do.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
> Subj: Yak-List: Are you a CFI part III
> Date: 12/29/2004 1:48:31 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From: lacloudchaser@yahoo.com (Drew Blahnick)
> Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> Reply-to: yak-list@matronics.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>
>
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Drew Blahnick <lacloudchaser@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Folks, well done!
>
> Great results, I've gotten 18 certified flight instructors from this polling
> on the yak list, but I need at least 25, I think we can do it...
>
> Remember, if you have a certified flight instructor on your field, someone
> you know and have flown with, and that person has ample time in your or others
> Yak, CJ, etc. We need to hear from you.
>
> Next step in this program is asking if any of you cfis (or not) have
> information you can send me electronically, such as:
>
> 1. checklists for the cj, yak 52, yak 50, etc, that you or someone has built
>
> 2. ops limits documents. Perhaps you once made a nice quick reference
> spreadsheet of ops limits.
>
> 3. new cj/yak pilot syllabus. have you made any form of a syllabus to guide
> your instruction of new / refresher pilots through sorties?
>
> 4. Any other training material you think we should look at.
>
> Please send electronically any such documents you think should be reviewed
> for training, nothing, is put in the public domain until I personally contact
> you. your stuff is not being critically judged, I'm just looking for the
> best source material out there to save time and save your insurance rates. Its
> best if they are in editable format, MS Word, Publisher, Excell for example.
>
> Thanks all,
>
>
> Drew Blahnick
> RPA
>
>
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 12/30/2004 8:52:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
brianl@lloyd.com writes:
> at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
>
> > 2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> > checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> > are flying.
>
> Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at all.
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
>
It is different and much simpler. First without the up locks, the gear
handle must be left in the UP position to keep the gear up. IF you lose pressure,
the gear automatically falls down, NO matter, where the gear handle is. One
only need wait to the gear fall completely down or near so. Put the gear
handle down and than open the emergency air bottle to lock the gear in place.
I
lost a compressor on a PR flight at an airshow years ago. Seeing I was loseing
pressure while in flight, I closed my main air valve to comserve what normal
pressure I had left in the main tank. The pressure continued to fall and soon
the main gear started to drop out. I made a normal approach and at my normal
gear down spot, I put the handle down. I opened the main air valve and that
pressure left locked the gear over center. I still had enough pressure left
for bakes and had plenty of air pressure still in the emergency system tank for
bakes on the ground if I needed it too.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Message 13
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| Subject: | Landing gear, checklist, etc. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
The emergency gear extension placard included in my CJ placard set shows the same
steps already mentioned in previous posts on this subject -----
1. Close main air valve
2. Gear lever neutral
3. Open emergency air valve
4. Gear lever down
5. Engage safety latch.
The gear will be down and locked on #3 before your hand is off the valve. #4 &
5 are good housekeeping items not essential to getting the gear down but important
to remember under stress.
Whether there are up-locks or not the procedure remains exactly the same. As main
air is lost the gear will start to drop and the indicator lights will show
the trend.
Whether you initiate emergency action early or late the gear will be close to
or already down (but not locked) when you open the emergency valve.
That happened at step 2. Gear lever neutral.
The only difference will be a much quieter and less traumatic gear down experience
with no up- locks.
Doug Sapp and I have often discussed the problem of gear and flap lever handles
giving no tactile sense of function and I have manufactured wheel shaped gear
knobs for my CJ project. Still have not made the flap knobs, these are something
of a challenge.
I have considered the possibility of mass production but put it on the back burner
after getting estimates of tooling costs from two casting companies. Would
need to sell them to every CJ and Yak owner in the US to (maybe) break even.
Cheers;
Walt
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