Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:19 AM - 3 gear questions (robert de vries)
2. 05:41 AM - Re: 3 gear questions (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Checklist (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 06:47 AM - Re: Are you a CFI part III (Brian Lloyd)
5. 07:20 AM - RPA CFI call prt VII (Drew Blahnick)
6. 07:23 AM - props. (Mark Jefferies YAK UK)
7. 07:25 AM - Gear problems (Joe Howse)
8. 07:39 AM - accidents (Mark Jefferies YAK UK)
9. 07:51 AM - gear fail (Mark Jefferies YAK UK)
10. 07:56 AM - Re: Gear problems (KingCJ6@aol.com)
11. 08:51 AM - FAST Cards (MFilucci@aol.com)
12. 09:55 AM - Re: FAST Cards (Schlafly Fred)
13. 10:05 AM - Re: Gear problems (Joe Howse)
14. 10:13 AM - Re: Gear problems (Walt Lannon)
15. 11:29 AM - Re: Gear problems (Brian Lloyd)
16. 11:31 AM - Re: Gear problems (Brian Lloyd)
17. 02:02 PM - Re: Yak-55 Info (Ron Spencer)
18. 03:24 PM - Re: Gear problems (A. Dennis Savarese)
19. 03:37 PM - Re: Gear problems (A. Dennis Savarese)
20. 03:49 PM - Re: Gear problems (A. Dennis Savarese)
21. 04:38 PM - Re: Gear problems (KingCJ6@aol.com)
22. 05:20 PM - Re: Gear problems (Joe Howse)
23. 06:59 PM - Re: Gear problems (Walt Lannon)
24. 07:16 PM - Some notes on the Yak 52 air system and failures.... (Naomi Siu)
25. 07:35 PM - Re: Gear problems (Walt Lannon)
26. 08:57 PM - Re: Gear problems (Joe Howse)
27. 10:07 PM - Re: Gear problems (Walt Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 3 gear questions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: robert de vries <rob@redyak.demon.nl>
Gentlemen,
The three answers I would come up with are:
1st: fly the acft!! (It happened close to the ground just after
T/O,remember?)
2nd: fly the acft!!! to a safe place away fron other traffic,you don't
wanna hit anybody in the pattern while looking sideways maintaining
700' +/- 200' trying to find the main air valve in flight!!
3rd: open the valve gently/slowly,on a Yak-52 gear will come up fine if
gear leaver is still in up pos as you left it after T/O.
Continue flight with a slightly red face.
With G.I.B.:buy him (her is more likely to cause distractions!)
beer for not performing preflight checks properly.
Happy NY!!
Robert de Vries
Van Struykstraat 2
2203 HE Noordwijk
Holland,Europe
tel/fax:+31-71-3619730
mobile:+31-6-51792046
rob@redyak.demon.nl
www.redyak.tk
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
>
> Al,
> Grading your answers -
> 1- Correct
> 2- Correct
> 3- Correct
>
> Can you explain to the group why your answer to #1 is correct?
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
>>
>> From memory (I don't have my 52 or its checklist anymore)
>>
>> 1. Gear selector in the down position
>> 2. Main Air On
>> 3. Gear selector in the up position
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Al
>>
>> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 3 gear questions |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Robert,
Grading your answers -
1 - ALWAYS CORRECT, BUT NOT RELATED TO WHAT YOU WOULD DO FIRST WHEN YOU
NOTICE THE GEAR PROBLEM
2 - AGAIN, ALWAYS CORRECT, BUT CERTAINLY NOT WHAT YOU WOULD DO SECOND WHEN
YOU NOTICE THE GEAR PROBLEM
3 - UNFORTUNATELY THAT IS INCORRECT
Sorry. Happy New Year.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert de vries" <rob@redyak.demon.nl>
Subject: Yak-List: 3 gear questions
> --> Yak-List message posted by: robert de vries <rob@redyak.demon.nl>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> The three answers I would come up with are:
>
> 1st: fly the acft!! (It happened close to the ground just after
> T/O,remember?)
> 2nd: fly the acft!!! to a safe place away fron other traffic,you don't
> wanna hit anybody in the pattern while looking sideways maintaining
> 700' +/- 200' trying to find the main air valve in flight!!
> 3rd: open the valve gently/slowly,on a Yak-52 gear will come up fine if
> gear leaver is still in up pos as you left it after T/O.
>
> Continue flight with a slightly red face.
> With G.I.B.:buy him (her is more likely to cause distractions!)
> beer for not performing preflight checks properly.
>
> Happy NY!!
>
> Robert de Vries
> Van Struykstraat 2
> 2203 HE Noordwijk
> Holland,Europe
> tel/fax:+31-71-3619730
> mobile:+31-6-51792046
> rob@redyak.demon.nl
> www.redyak.tk
>
>
> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >
> > Al,
> > Grading your answers -
> > 1- Correct
> > 2- Correct
> > 3- Correct
> >
> > Can you explain to the group why your answer to #1 is correct?
> > Dennis
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> >
> >
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
> >>
> >> From memory (I don't have my 52 or its checklist anymore)
> >>
> >> 1. Gear selector in the down position
> >> 2. Main Air On
> >> 3. Gear selector in the up position
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Al
> >>
> >> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
>
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
I think you meant to say "so it would NOT slam up". Right? Good job Al.
Particularly since you no longer have your 52.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> --> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
>
> Since you stated the gear handle was moved to the up position and then
> you noticed no air pressure, the gear handle was in the up position to
> start. Prior to opening the main air valve, I'd want to move the gear
> handle to the the down position so that it would "slam" up.
>
> Al
>
>
> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >
> >Al,
> >Grading your answers -
> >1- Correct
> >2- Correct
> >3- Correct
> >
> >Can you explain to the group why your answer to #1 is correct?
> >Dennis
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
> >To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
> >>
> >> From memory (I don't have my 52 or its checklist anymore)
> >>
> >>1. Gear selector in the down position
> >>2. Main Air On
> >>3. Gear selector in the up position
> >>
> >>Thoughts?
> >>
> >>Al
> >>
> >>A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
> >>>
> >>>The same applies to Yak 52's. Moving the gear handle to the neutral
> >>>position, per the check list, depletes all the air in the actuators,
thus
> >>>relieving any back pressure before the emergency gear extension knob is
> >>>opened. On the 52, there are small pressure reducers on the main air
> >>>
> >>>
> >system
> >
> >
> >>>side inside the flexible hose "B" nuts that connect directly to the
> >>>actuator. These reducers slow the gear down when moving up or down.
> >>>However, there are no pressure reducers on the emergency system side.
> >>>
> >>>
> >With
> >
> >
> >>>no pressure reducers AND no air pressure in the cylinders, when the
> >>>emergency gear extension handle is opened the gear moves down very fast
> >>>
> >>>
> >and
> >
> >
> >>>literally slams into the down and locked position.
> >>>
> >>>Now here's another operational question for Yak 52 drivers. If the
main
> >>>
> >>>
> >air
> >
> >
> >>>valve is closed and assuming you had enough air to start, taxi, lock
the
> >>>brakes to do your run-up and take off (BTW, many have done this), after
> >>>
> >>>
> >take
> >
> >
> >>>off you move the gear handle into the UP position and you notice the
> >>>
> >>>
> >landing
> >
> >
> >>>gear will not come up and lock into the UP position. Now you have no
> >>>
> >>>
> >green
> >
> >
> >>>lights and no red lights and the poles are now only partially exposed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >ie:
> >
> >
> >>>the gear is just hanging in limbo. Then you realize the main air valve
> >>>
> >>>
> >was
> >
> >
> >>>not opened before you started the engine. What should you do first,
> >>>
> >>>
> >second
> >
> >
> >>>and third?
> >>>
> >>>Happy New Year,
> >>>Dennis
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
> >>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Checklist
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On Dec 30, 2004, at 5:41 AM, cpayne@joimail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com"
> >>>>><cpayne@joimail.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Re: Brian's list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Fine Points:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>1)There may still be system pressure in the line when the
> >>>>>Main Valve is closed prior to opening the Emergency bottle,
> >>>>>"backpressure". For Nanchangs, this residual pressure needs
> >>>>>to be bleed down; flap cycling helps and THEN open the
> >>>>>Emergency system. Otherwise the 2-way shuttle valve may not
> >>>>>pop open allowing Emergency air into the gear system. Is
> >>>>>this not so?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Theoretically this is the reason for closing the main air and placing
> >>>>the gear lever in the neutral position. This bleeds off the pressure
in
> >>>>the gear system so that the emergency system can work normally without
> >>>>any possibility of pressure trapped in the gear retraction side of the
> >>>>system.
> >>>>
> >>>>If one of the shuttle valves has failed you can get abnormal behavior
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>from the system but usually only from the main pneumatic system, not
> >>>>from the emergency system. The emergency system still seems to work as
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>advertised even if there is a shuttle valve problem as pressure is
sent
> >>>>directly to the extension side of the system regardless of the gear
> >>>>lever position.
> >>>>
> >>>>Caveat: I did not review the pneumatic system diagram before writing
> >>>>this so I am operating from memory. Regardless, I believe that the
> >>>>emergency checklist portion that I posted is correct.
> >>>>
> >>>>BTW, for those of you who have CJs, the checklists are still available
> >>>>at: http://www.cj6.org/usefuldocs.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>2) Some Nanchangs are not equipped with gear uplocks, their
> >>>>>checklist is simplier but different. Know which system you
> >>>>>are flying.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Good point but I don't think it changes the emergency procedure at
all.
> >>>>
> >>>>Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> >>>>brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> >>>>+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
> >>>>
> >>>>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . .
.
> >>>>Antoine de Saint-Exupry
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Are you a CFI part III |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Dec 30, 2004, at 11:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> Instituting cockpit call outs at specific profile points in the
> approach. I
> personally use "Sticks, 3 green, latched, pressure" on the base leg.
The only problem with mandatory call-outs is that it is easy to do
verbally without actually performing the function or, if you do perform
the function, seeing what you expect to see, not what you actually see.
This is what leads people who land gear up to say, "but I put the gear
down and checked it down. I don't know how it came back up again."
The important thing is to get people to consciously perform the checks
without distraction.
> Mandatory radio calls on final will confuse most civil control towers,
> but screw them,
> just do it. This would be easy to do.
The radio call is only good if there is someone listening to catch you
if you make a mistake. Blind calls into the ether are no better than
just talking in the cockpit because nothing ever comes back. If the
tower is used to calling 'check gear down' as you turn final that is a
help but not otherwise.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 5
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| Subject: | RPA CFI call prt VII |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Drew Blahnick <lacloudchaser@yahoo.com>
Folks,
The response was exceptional, a great start. Thanks to all. In the near future,
pilots will be able to access 24/7 important training documents and CFI locator
information. These documents were created by community pilots like you.
Pappy mentioned Jeffs Syllabus, Jeff has provided me with a very large amount
of supporting documentation that will make up the framework of this informational
access program to benefit all pilots. All appropriately experienced CFIs
will be invited to participate.
Details will be available in future posts and the newsletter. For now, please
send your questions directly to lacloudchaser@yahoo.com , I often can only scan
dailey digests and I don't want to miss your questions.
And while I have your attention. Do you know the definition of "FTP"? Are you
experienced with web editing software? Have you ever wanted to help create, design
and update one national aviation web page, not a web site, but a single
web page - to have creative license with world wide exposure? With the release
soon of the RPAs email based newsletter product, the association has a fresh
need for folks experienced in web design and to limit a single volunteers time
requirement, we have a few single page assignments available. You might want
to create the layout for the Training Page that will contain the information
we are collecting, or the Air Combat Simulation page, FAST Formation page, etc.
Experienced web designers will be given a choice, your choice. If not you,
perhaps a spouse has such creative talents in her career. Just email me directly,
off list, for further information...
Drew Blahnick
RPA 20126
---------------------------------
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Jefferies YAK UK <mark.j@yakuk.com>
Time: 10:47:46 AM PST US
From: "Chanock Richka" <crichka@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: V530
Let the experts at whirlwind do the prop, dont play around. Its not a DIY job!!
regards, MJ
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Chanock Richka" <crichka@hotmail.com>
Yakers;
Does anyone have some info. on the V530 prop blade fabric material, removal
and replacement.
I have past experience with fabric and paint work, need good input.
thanks
Chanock. 52CY
Best regards, Mark
www.yakuk.com
+44 (0)1767 651156 office +44 (0)7785 538 317 mobile
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
There seems to be some confusion about gear down locks,
Remember that even without up locks, the gear may fall down, but will not lock
without air pressure.
Unlike the T6 or T28 which will lock mechanically at the overcenter position of
the gear strut.
The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as the pistons
final movement independent of the rod position moves the locking balls into the
lock grooves.
Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air pressure to move the
piston and balls out of the lock position.
The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the locking balls,
but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air pressure.
Joe
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Jefferies YAK UK <mark.j@yakuk.com>
In the UK we have appox 100 YAK's of all types. In the last 12 months i believe
we have had only 3 accidents. Maybe add a couiple more I cant think of.
I see that there are approx 333 YAK's in USA, thats 3,11,12,18,50,52,54,55, (55
is fixed gear)
Why the ratio differance?
1. Gear up due to seal failure (seals life was up in 4 months time, they have 5
years life. Emg system did not help but finger trouble also did not help, I belive
the gear would have come down using correct procedure as when tested on
the ground it did "down and lock" with 30 ATA. write off.
2. heavy landing with jammed elivater due to mobile phone, prop clipped ground.$18,000
repair.
3. messed up forced landing due to engine failure, fuel related most likely water
frozen in filters. Write off.
So. what do we learn? 1. The OEM gave lives for good reason. 2. learn your procedures.
3 Do a FOD check.
And finaly, Experimental does not mean "its an experiment to see how long it will
last till falling appart" Dont abuse the rights you have or they will be taken
away.
Good luck to all for the coming year, regards, MJ
BTW, there is a mod to greatly reduce the engine start possability with the air
off and then taxining into something, its mandatory in the UK. I have the kits
in stock, its approx 300$ This is only for the Yak 52.
Time: 09:37:48 AM PST US
From: "Tom Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Insurance Concerns
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
Fellow CJ / Yak pilots:
As some of you may know, I've sounded the ALERT horn due to an alarming trend.
The CJs and Yaks as a whole are having a very bad claims year due to Gear mishaps
and Prop strikes.
In the last month or so, we've had about 10 gear / prop related mishaps.
In the last year, we've had about 24 gear / prop related mishaps.
The T28s, T6s, T34s have had virtually Zero gear / prop related mishaps.
This trend has been increasing in both frequency and magnitude in recent weeks.
So, we stick out like a sore thumb to the underwriter at USSIC who provides most
of our insurance.
The problem for us, what will happen to our ability to obtain insurance?
Prices go way up?
US Specialty decides to stop writing Yaks?
Now is NOT the time to point fingers, or blame capitalism or new pilots or old
pilots.
In fact the claims come from across the spectrum and indicate we need to change
a few things in our aircraft and a few things in our training and habits.
I am working closely with the RPA Board of Directors, and gathering input from
our Mechanics and Instructors.
We will fix this problem, and we will show the underwriters that we can get the
results we want.
In the meantime. Please re-read your emergency and normal checklists.
If you have been having gear problems or gremlins, please address.
My own aircraft is down now because of a small actuator leak, so I'm gonna rebuild
both actuators just to be safe.
Stand by for additional details, please.
Yours truly.
Tom Johnson
Best regards, Mark
www.yakuk.com
+44 (0)1767 651156 office +44 (0)7785 538 317 mobile
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Jefferies YAK UK <mark.j@yakuk.com>
wrong ernie...............emg goes direct to the down side of the ram. As soon
as the emg is opened the gear should go down what ever position the lever is in.
In the workshop on ground test we select gear up, close main air cock, open emg,
then select gear neutral. This procedure gives counter pressure and therefor
avoides the fast gear extension bang, but if you dont have any main pressure
(ie failure) there will be no counter pressure available!!!
and finaly dont open the emg valve slowly, you could piss all that air away either
via the blow of valve or past a leaking seal (like in the accident post a
moment ago)
I am talking about YAK 11, 50, 52.
CJ could be different, so again, learn your systems and checks.
cheers, MJ
Time: 12:34:49 PM PST US
From: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problem
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Set the gear handle to neutral, and try again, you may have a bad
guage. Try the flaps, if still nothing, then assuming this isnt a
trick question and no one in the back seat has done anything. Close
main air, open emergency air then set gear handle up, then down to
avoid the BANG.
Ernie
Best regards, Mark
www.yakuk.com
+44 (0)1767 651156 office +44 (0)7785 538 317 mobile
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
Joe - what happens to an a/c which has a slow (or fast) air leak that
depletes the main tank while parked? Also, after closing the main air post-shutdown,
our gauge typically bleeds down to 10-20 until it's turned back on, but I
assume there is still sufficient pressure downstream of the gauge to maintain the
locked position.
Dave
In a message dated 12/31/2004 7:25:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, joeh@shaw.ca
writes:
The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the locking
balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air pressure.
Joe
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
Fellow RPA Warbird Drivers,
The 2005 FAST card decals have arrived and I will begin sending out the new
cards after the holidays. I will automatically send the cards out to all of
you who meet the following qualifications:
1. RPA 2005 dues paid in full.
2. RPA FAST qualified and current.
3. FAST card fee ($10.00 ) paid for 2005
The RPA 2005 membership form is available on the website.
The FAST database, updated through November, 2004 is also on the website. I
will be updating the database in the next week or so to bring it up to date
with the FPRs I've received in the last few weeks.
Best wishes to all for the new year.
Mike Filucci
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Schlafly Fred" <fschlafly@sprynet.com>
Mike
I already sent out my Formation Proficiency Report and the $10 fee to Jeff
Linebaugh as shown on the bottom of the Report. The dues for 2005 were sent
under separate cover, different location, as per the website form. Hope
that will work.
Fred E. Schlafly
----- Original Message -----
From: <MFilucci@aol.com>
Subject: Yak-List: FAST Cards
> --> Yak-List message posted by: MFilucci@aol.com
>
> Fellow RPA Warbird Drivers,
>
> The 2005 FAST card decals have arrived and I will begin sending out the
new
> cards after the holidays. I will automatically send the cards out to all
of
> you who meet the following qualifications:
>
> 1. RPA 2005 dues paid in full.
> 2. RPA FAST qualified and current.
> 3. FAST card fee ($10.00 ) paid for 2005
>
> The RPA 2005 membership form is available on the website.
>
> The FAST database, updated through November, 2004 is also on the website.
I
> will be updating the database in the next week or so to bring it up to
date
> with the FPRs I've received in the last few weeks.
>
> Best wishes to all for the new year.
>
> Mike Filucci
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
No pressure is required to maintain the down locked position, air pressure
is then required to move the piston out of the locked position before the
gear can retract.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: <KingCJ6@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
>
> Joe - what happens to an a/c which has a slow (or fast) air leak that
> depletes the main tank while parked? Also, after closing the main air
> post-shutdown,
> our gauge typically bleeds down to 10-20 until it's turned back on, but I
> assume there is still sufficient pressure downstream of the gauge to
> maintain the
> locked position.
>
> Dave
>
> In a message dated 12/31/2004 7:25:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> joeh@shaw.ca
> writes:
> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
> locking
> balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air pressure.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Hey Joe;
Have to disagree with your description of the CJ down locks. The actual gear
downlocks are the over centre position of the drag link knuckle. This over
centre position ensures that all (not some) of the gear collapsing load is
directly transferred to the aircraft structure.
Were this not so and this load was carried through the actuating cyl. piston
rod the result would be bending and failure of the rod (CJ nose gear- main
gear failure would be somewhere else)
The ball locks are there to ensure that the drag link over centre lock stays
in place. If the ball lock fails the gear is unsafe and could fold with air
press. loss or taxi over rough ground, etc. Once engaged the ball lock is
designed to hold without continued air pressure and requires opposite air
pressure to dis- engage.
All gear systems using the drag link over centre lock method incorporate
some means of lock retention. The ball lock system is one of these.
Happy New Year;
Walt
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> There seems to be some confusion about gear down locks,
> Remember that even without up locks, the gear may fall down, but will not
lock without air pressure.
> Unlike the T6 or T28 which will lock mechanically at the overcenter
position of the gear strut.
>
> The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as the
pistons final movement independent of the rod position moves the locking
balls into the lock grooves.
> Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air pressure to
move the piston and balls out of the lock position.
>
> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
locking balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air
pressure.
>
> Joe
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Dec 31, 2004, at 10:24 AM, Joe Howse wrote:
> The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as
> the pistons final movement independent of the rod position moves the
> locking balls into the lock grooves.
> Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air pressure
> to move the piston and balls out of the lock position.
>
> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
> locking balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air
> pressure.
Will not the locking balls in the actuator go into the locked position
if the gear comes fully down with the actuating arm in the over-center
position? I thought they would. The greens should come in at that point
too. That implies to me that, if I manage to get the green lights on,
my gear is indeed locked even if there is no air pressure.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Dec 31, 2004, at 10:53 AM, KingCJ6@aol.com wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
>
> Joe - what happens to an a/c which has a slow (or fast) air leak that
> depletes the main tank while parked? Also, after closing the main air
> post-shutdown,
> our gauge typically bleeds down to 10-20 until it's turned back on,
> but I
> assume there is still sufficient pressure downstream of the gauge to
> maintain the
> locked position.
If you use air pressure to put the gear in the down-and-locked position
it remains there even without air until you use air pressure to retract
the gear. The question in my mind is whether getting the actuator fully
extended in the down position will cause the balls to lock the gear.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 17
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Spencer" <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
Hi Scott,
I am in the opposite situation, I am looking for as much data regarding
stations as they compare to the % of Mean Aerodynamic Cord on the Yak 55M.
Any stuff you have would be most appreciated!
Thanks, -rs-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kirk" <pilot8kcab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Yak-55 Info
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Scott Kirk" <pilot8kcab@hotmail.com>
>
> Does anyone have the length of the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC) for a
> Yak-55
> long wing (not the Yak-55M)? I'm developing weight and balance info and
> unfortunately the manuals I have are for a 55M, not the 55. I've gone
> thru
> some of the original Russian books that came with the aircraft and have
> not
> been able to date to dig out this number though I did manage to find some
> of
> the other W&B info but not all. Any Yak 55 info relative to weight and
> balance calcs would be appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
> Scott
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Excellent point Joe.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Howse" <joeh@shaw.ca>
Subject: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> There seems to be some confusion about gear down locks,
> Remember that even without up locks, the gear may fall down, but will not
lock without air pressure.
> Unlike the T6 or T28 which will lock mechanically at the overcenter
position of the gear strut.
>
> The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as the
pistons final movement independent of the rod position moves the locking
balls into the lock grooves.
> Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air pressure to
move the piston and balls out of the lock position.
>
> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
locking balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air
pressure.
>
> Joe
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
Although I'm not Joe, I would like to comment. The actuator assemblies have
internal lock mechanisms very similar to an air chuck on the end of your air
compressor hose. Inside the actuator there are 6 stainless steel balls in
sockets in the actuator. When the actuator has down pressure the SS balls
(which have a spring loaded back pressure mechanism) move past a fixed,
notched steel insert which locks the actuator in the down position. The
only way to move the SS balls back over the notched steel insert is with air
pressure. Once the actuator/gear is in the down position, depleting the
entire main air system will not cause the gear to collapse because of the
over-center locking mechanism.
As far as your bleed down AFTER the main air valve is closed, you most
likely have a leak in the system. What pressure does the main side build up
to in flight?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: <KingCJ6@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
>
> Joe - what happens to an a/c which has a slow (or fast) air leak that
> depletes the main tank while parked? Also, after closing the main air
post-shutdown,
> our gauge typically bleeds down to 10-20 until it's turned back on, but I
> assume there is still sufficient pressure downstream of the gauge to
maintain the
> locked position.
>
> Dave
>
> In a message dated 12/31/2004 7:25:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
joeh@shaw.ca
> writes:
> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
locking
> balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air pressure.
>
> Joe
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar@gte.net>
On the 52 Brian, that is absolutely correct. Might be the same or similar
actuator on the CJ. I'm not sure though. Once the SS balls lock into
position, the gear will stay down without air pressure.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2004, at 10:53 AM, KingCJ6@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
> >
> > Joe - what happens to an a/c which has a slow (or fast) air leak that
> > depletes the main tank while parked? Also, after closing the main air
> > post-shutdown,
> > our gauge typically bleeds down to 10-20 until it's turned back on,
> > but I
> > assume there is still sufficient pressure downstream of the gauge to
> > maintain the
> > locked position.
>
> If you use air pressure to put the gear in the down-and-locked position
> it remains there even without air until you use air pressure to retract
> the gear. The question in my mind is whether getting the actuator fully
> extended in the down position will cause the balls to lock the gear.
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
The system charges to 45 during flight. The main air is closed after flight,
and after several days the gauge will read from 10-20 with the valve still
closed. Once the main air valve is opened, the gauge will again read nearly
where it was when initially closed after shutdown.
Dave
In a message dated 12/31/2004 3:37:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
adsavar@gte.net writes:
As far as your bleed down AFTER the main air valve is closed, you most
likely have a leak in the system. What pressure does the main side build up
to in flight?
Dennis
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
Walt
You are correct in that the overcenter strut situation is important
structurally, however, if the the ball locks are not made then the gear is
not locked down.
I saw a situation where a CJ was being taken from the shipping frame and the
uplocks were tripped manually to lower the gear (no air pressure), the
struts fell into the overcenter position but when the airplane was moved on
the gear, one main gear collapsed with a slight side load.
So, both situations are important, but if we are discussing whether the gear
is locked down or not, the position of the actuator piston and the locking
balls is the key.
Joe----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>
>
> Hey Joe;
>
> Have to disagree with your description of the CJ down locks. The actual
> gear
> downlocks are the over centre position of the drag link knuckle. This over
> centre position ensures that all (not some) of the gear collapsing load is
> directly transferred to the aircraft structure.
> Were this not so and this load was carried through the actuating cyl.
> piston
> rod the result would be bending and failure of the rod (CJ nose gear- main
> gear failure would be somewhere else)
> The ball locks are there to ensure that the drag link over centre lock
> stays
> in place. If the ball lock fails the gear is unsafe and could fold with
> air
> press. loss or taxi over rough ground, etc. Once engaged the ball lock is
> designed to hold without continued air pressure and requires opposite air
> pressure to dis- engage.
> All gear systems using the drag link over centre lock method incorporate
> some means of lock retention. The ball lock system is one of these.
>
> Happy New Year;
> Walt
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>>
>> There seems to be some confusion about gear down locks,
>> Remember that even without up locks, the gear may fall down, but will not
> lock without air pressure.
>> Unlike the T6 or T28 which will lock mechanically at the overcenter
> position of the gear strut.
>>
>> The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as the
> pistons final movement independent of the rod position moves the locking
> balls into the lock grooves.
>> Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air pressure to
> move the piston and balls out of the lock position.
>>
>> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
> locking balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air
> pressure.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: <KingCJ6@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: KingCJ6@aol.com
>
> The system charges to 45 during flight.
As it should.
The main air is closed after flight,
> and after several days the gauge will read from 10-20 with the valve still
> closed.
That is excellent for the CJ6 and probably for the Yak52 as well. There is
always some leakage in the operating system. I would consider 10 ATM after
24 hrs. as quite acceptable.
Once the main air valve is opened, the gauge will again read nearly
> where it was when initially closed after shutdown.
That is as it should be . It requires some pressure to refill the operating
circuit so you would expect to see about 3 ATM less than at shutdown. This
indicates that there is no leakage in the storage (tank) side of the system.
Sounds like your air system is in good shape.
Walt
Dave
>
> In a message dated 12/31/2004 3:37:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> adsavar@gte.net writes:
> As far as your bleed down AFTER the main air valve is closed, you most
> likely have a leak in the system. What pressure does the main side build
up
> to in flight?
> Dennis
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Some notes on the Yak 52 air system and failures.... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Naomi Siu" <horizontrekkers@comcast.net>
The following only applies to Yak 52's as I have no experience with CJ's.
The Yak's air system can be perplexing and complicated to a new Yak initiate
but if you carefully study the schematics and maintain your plane you should
be able to keep the air system virtually trouble free. I've been maintaining
254YK for the past 4 years and have become intimate with many of its
idiosyncrasies.
I'll use Tom Johnson's scenario of zero main air as a starting point: If
you have zero air in the main system and 4.5 on the gauge for the emergency
system then you need to set both landing gear actuator handles in neutral,
slow the plane down to around 85 knots and open the emergency air valve.
The gear will come down with a bang. When landing do not select flaps as
the emergency system does not operate the flaps. You will have limited
braking power as the emergency system controls the brakes as well, but this
will be quickly depleted if you are not careful. Many do not realize that
once the emergency system has been activated (even accidentally when the
airplane is parked) the emergency system lines must be bled of pressure
before using the airplane again. This can be accomplished in one of two
ways. Either apply the brakes repeatedly until you hear the shuttle valve
under the front seat move and exhaust the remaining air in the emergency
system, or unscrew a line on the emergency system to bleed the air. A gear
swing on jacks is not required, but may be done to insure there is not overt
problem.
Many do not realize that the emergency system is not replenished by the
compressor on a stock Yak, it must be recharged from a ground supply from
the external port behind the rear cockpit. The reasoning behind this is to
keep the two systems as isolated as possible. One could plumb in a new line
with a check valve to have the compressor recharge the system, but if the
check valve fails you will lose your emergency system. Since many do not
know their emergency system is not being recharged they often will not take
the time to check their emergency system has decent pressure. A charge of
at least 3.0 is required to lower the gear and sadly I've seen Yaks flown
with less than that.
The emergency air system uses an entirely different set of lines and hoses
to lower the gear. The up gear locks have their own emergency hoses as do
the down side of the gear actuators. The system is designed to override the
normal system and will lower the gear no matter what position the cockpit
handles are in as long as there is no significant pressure in the main
system. The only reason to place the gear selector handles in the neutral
position is to bleed off any residual pressure in the lines.
Now as to why would a situation occur when you have zero air pressure in
the main system while in flight: most likely you have had a failure of a
line or of a seal, or possibly a check valve. A compressor failure should
not cause the air system to lose pressure, it just would not be able to
replenish itself. The aluminium lines can fatigue and crack or break, this
would cause your system to lose all pressure and the compressor could not
replenish the system. The firewall pressure safety valve could fail (or
could unscrew itself due to vibration if not safety wired) and you would
have a serious leak in this case. As the emergency system is isolated from
this by a check valve you would not lose your emergency system.
Another possibility that would cause you to lose all main air pressure
would be a failure of one of the landing gear actuator seals. The down lock
assembly is located in the middle of each landing gear actuator. There are
two chevron seals located inside this that keep the up and down sides of the
actuator separate. If one of these seals fails (or gets dry) then air will
be able to move from one side to the other of the system. The symptom of
this would be a constant hissing of air out of the landing gear actuator.
If it happens on the down side of the actuator then you will hear air
hissing out of the system long after you get three greens. If it happens on
the up side you will hear the air hissing long after you get three reds. As
the airplane is quite noisy in flight you might not hear an up side failure
until you had bled off most or all your air. If you fly your Yak (as most
of us do) with the gear handle in the up position during the flight then
there is pressure on the system for the entire flight and any leak you've
developed will bleed the system down. If on the other hand you place the
gear selector in the neutral position you will have no pressure on the
system and the gear will be hanging on the up locks for the flight. You
should then move the gear selector first to up, then down to avoid "banging"
the gear down. Once the gear has come completely down then the down lock
balls will lock into place and only air pressure from the opposite side (up)
of the system should cause the down locks to release. No air pressure is
needed to keep you gear down and locked.
To keep the down lock seals (and the main actuator seals) from failing the
landing gear actuators are supposed to be lubricated about every 100 hours.
This is not an easy task to ensure the oil actually gets to the seals. My
solution has been to place the plane on jacks, unscrew the up side lines and
squirt about 10 cc's of air tool oil (not sure what the best oil is at this
time) into the line then screw them back on. Then perform a gear swing to
the up position. Now unscrew the down lines and do the same. If you don't
do a gear swing the down side oil will be sent away from the actuators as
the gear comes up.
If one finds that the main air pressure has drained to zero while in
flight the first procedure I would take would be to put both landing gear
selectors in the neutral position and turn off the main air valve. If a
leak has occurred in one of the seals, a line has cracked, or a check valve
failed, there is a good chance the failure has occurred somewhere
"downstream" of the air bottle and its safety valve. The compressor will
continue to charge the air bottle even when the main valve is shut off. A
charge from zero to 4.5 would probably take 20 to 30 minutes and if the fuel
was available I'd fly locally until the air pressure had built up then try a
normal gear extension. If that was unsuccessful then I'd go to the
emergency system.
Lines cracking and seal failures are probably the most common form of this
type of problem. Check valve failures tend to be slow in forming and any
attentive owner will notice that something's wrong long before they have a
total failure. Dry or failing seals will sometimes give you warning by
leaking air for an abnormal length of time after getting positive indication
of up or down. If you hear air leaking out after you've obtained three
lights and confirmation from the barber poles you can shut off your main air
valve and this will save your remaining air until you've landed as well as
allow the compressor to begin recharging the bottle. Often a leaking or dry
seal will function normally if the air pressure load is taken off it for a
short period. On final approach you can open the main air valve to have
sufficient brakes after landing.
One of the critical elements in a Yak's air supply system is ensuring that
moisture and contaminants remain out of the air lines. It is imperative
that the moisture trap valve (snot valve) be opened within a short time of
engine shutdown as otherwise the moisture and contaminants will be
introduced into the air system. At annual inspection time it would be wise
to blow out all of the air lines as well as clean out the air bottles and
lube the actuators for the gear, flaps and the up locks. The up locks are
particularly prone to corrosion as they are the highest part of the air
system without a vent. Moisture will tend to gravitate towards these and,
although they may be corroded, will continue to function right up to the
point of failure. Even though mine worked perfectly I rebuilt them last
year and found that one had a chevron seal retainer corroded in half and the
other had a large amount of contaminant sludge inside it. Also make sure you
clean and examine the water trap directly below the air pressure safety
valve on the firewall. This consists of a very fine screen which is
supposed to trap any contaminants that make it past the lower moisture trap
(snot valve).
Starting the engine with a closed main air valve is also possible if
you've just shut down shortly before. Your cranking will be a little
sluggish and you will have limited brakes before the air is exhausted. The
first indication of a problem may be when you go to swing the gear up and
the handle moves but no hiss of air is heard and the gear only swing partly
up then hang there. Your air pressure gauge will show a full charge and
your compressor will be working (and in a very tight air system will
eventually raise the gear). The solution to this is to make the main air
valve check part of your start and run up procedure. If you do discover the
air bottle is closed in flight, place your gear selector in neutral, open
the main air valve, and then place the gear selector in the up position.
Your gear should act normally. By the way, rocking and yanking may extend
and lock the main gear, but the nose wheel has to fight air resistance to
swing forward and lock. If you've lost main air pressure use the emergency
side unless it is also empty, then remember the Yak CAN be landed on its
gear in the up position although the prop will be destroyed (much easier to
land gear up on all three than with only the mains down.).
I have had both a gear actuator seal failure and forgotten to turn on the
air on start up. The first situation I solved by turning off the main air
until I landed, in the second I used the emergency system and discovered my
mistake upon shut down (a mistake most Yak pilots will make at least once).
As for prop strikes mentioned by TJ- I guess that many pilots think their
prop is just as rugged as the rest of the plane.
Dave Peterson
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Howse" <joeh@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Walt
>
> You are correct in that the overcenter strut situation is important
> structurally, however, if the the ball locks are not made then the gear is
> not locked down.
It is not SAFELY locked down. If the over center is correctly adjusted it is
locked down but could be unlocked by bouncing or whatever, so yes, the ball
lock (CJ, Yak) or over-center latch (T28 etc.) must be engaged to be
considered down and locked.
> I saw a situation where a CJ was being taken from the shipping frame and
the
> uplocks were tripped manually to lower the gear (no air pressure), the
> struts fell into the overcenter position but when the airplane was moved
on
> the gear, one main gear collapsed with a slight side load.
Does not much matter what type of aircraft you are doing this with. If it
has an over center type down lock you use two pieces of wood and a "C" clamp
to ensure the over center stays in place while you are moving it around
without air or hydraulic pressure in the system.
> So, both situations are important, but if we are discussing whether the
gear
> is locked down or not, the position of the actuator piston and the locking
> balls is the key.
The ball lock on the CJ, if in good clean and lubed condition will engage in
free fall almost 100% of the time on the main gear. The nose gear will
engage maybe 10% of the time since the engage position is beyond the free
fall bottom position.
They will both fully engage every time with 100psi shop air.
Cheers;
Walt
> Joe----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
> >
> >
> > Hey Joe;
> >
> > Have to disagree with your description of the CJ down locks. The actual
> > gear
> > downlocks are the over centre position of the drag link knuckle. This
over
> > centre position ensures that all (not some) of the gear collapsing load
is
> > directly transferred to the aircraft structure.
> > Were this not so and this load was carried through the actuating cyl.
> > piston
> > rod the result would be bending and failure of the rod (CJ nose gear-
main
> > gear failure would be somewhere else)
> > The ball locks are there to ensure that the drag link over centre lock
> > stays
> > in place. If the ball lock fails the gear is unsafe and could fold with
> > air
> > press. loss or taxi over rough ground, etc. Once engaged the ball lock
is
> > designed to hold without continued air pressure and requires opposite
air
> > pressure to dis- engage.
> > All gear systems using the drag link over centre lock method incorporate
> > some means of lock retention. The ball lock system is one of these.
> >
> > Happy New Year;
> > Walt
> >
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
> >>
> >> There seems to be some confusion about gear down locks,
> >> Remember that even without up locks, the gear may fall down, but will
not
> > lock without air pressure.
> >> Unlike the T6 or T28 which will lock mechanically at the overcenter
> > position of the gear strut.
> >>
> >> The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as the
> > pistons final movement independent of the rod position moves the locking
> > balls into the lock grooves.
> >> Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air pressure
to
> > move the piston and balls out of the lock position.
> >>
> >> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
> > locking balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air
> > pressure.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
Walt
One last point on this (could go on ad nauseum), I do not believe the CJ
nose gear would ever fall down to lock against the air load in flight, on
the T28 the nose gear has a huge coil spring to force the gear down against
the air load.
Happy New Year
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Howse" <joeh@shaw.ca>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> You are correct in that the overcenter strut situation is important
>> structurally, however, if the the ball locks are not made then the gear
>> is
>> not locked down.
>
> It is not SAFELY locked down. If the over center is correctly adjusted it
> is
> locked down but could be unlocked by bouncing or whatever, so yes, the
> ball
> lock (CJ, Yak) or over-center latch (T28 etc.) must be engaged to be
> considered down and locked.
>
>> I saw a situation where a CJ was being taken from the shipping frame and
> the
>> uplocks were tripped manually to lower the gear (no air pressure), the
>> struts fell into the overcenter position but when the airplane was moved
> on
>> the gear, one main gear collapsed with a slight side load.
>
> Does not much matter what type of aircraft you are doing this with. If it
> has an over center type down lock you use two pieces of wood and a "C"
> clamp
> to ensure the over center stays in place while you are moving it around
> without air or hydraulic pressure in the system.
>
>> So, both situations are important, but if we are discussing whether the
> gear
>> is locked down or not, the position of the actuator piston and the
>> locking
>> balls is the key.
>
> The ball lock on the CJ, if in good clean and lubed condition will engage
> in
> free fall almost 100% of the time on the main gear. The nose gear will
> engage maybe 10% of the time since the engage position is beyond the free
> fall bottom position.
> They will both fully engage every time with 100psi shop air.
>
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
>> Joe----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
>>
>>
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hey Joe;
>> >
>> > Have to disagree with your description of the CJ down locks. The actual
>> > gear
>> > downlocks are the over centre position of the drag link knuckle. This
> over
>> > centre position ensures that all (not some) of the gear collapsing load
> is
>> > directly transferred to the aircraft structure.
>> > Were this not so and this load was carried through the actuating cyl.
>> > piston
>> > rod the result would be bending and failure of the rod (CJ nose gear-
> main
>> > gear failure would be somewhere else)
>> > The ball locks are there to ensure that the drag link over centre lock
>> > stays
>> > in place. If the ball lock fails the gear is unsafe and could fold with
>> > air
>> > press. loss or taxi over rough ground, etc. Once engaged the ball lock
> is
>> > designed to hold without continued air pressure and requires opposite
> air
>> > pressure to dis- engage.
>> > All gear systems using the drag link over centre lock method
>> > incorporate
>> > some means of lock retention. The ball lock system is one of these.
>> >
>> > Happy New Year;
>> > Walt
>> >
>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>> >>
>> >> There seems to be some confusion about gear down locks,
>> >> Remember that even without up locks, the gear may fall down, but will
> not
>> > lock without air pressure.
>> >> Unlike the T6 or T28 which will lock mechanically at the overcenter
>> > position of the gear strut.
>> >>
>> >> The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as
>> >> the
>> > pistons final movement independent of the rod position moves the
>> > locking
>> > balls into the lock grooves.
>> >> Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air pressure
> to
>> > move the piston and balls out of the lock position.
>> >>
>> >> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off the
>> > locking balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air
>> > pressure.
>> >>
>> >> Joe
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Gear problems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Hey Joe;
I agree 100%.
Happy New Year to you and Alice
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Howse" <joeh@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Walt
>
> One last point on this (could go on ad nauseum), I do not believe the CJ
> nose gear would ever fall down to lock against the air load in flight, on
> the T28 the nose gear has a huge coil spring to force the gear down
against
> the air load.
>
> Happy New Year
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Howse" <joeh@shaw.ca>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> >
> >
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
> >>
> >> Walt
> >>
> >> You are correct in that the overcenter strut situation is important
> >> structurally, however, if the the ball locks are not made then the gear
> >> is
> >> not locked down.
> >
> > It is not SAFELY locked down. If the over center is correctly adjusted
it
> > is
> > locked down but could be unlocked by bouncing or whatever, so yes, the
> > ball
> > lock (CJ, Yak) or over-center latch (T28 etc.) must be engaged to be
> > considered down and locked.
> >
> >> I saw a situation where a CJ was being taken from the shipping frame
and
> > the
> >> uplocks were tripped manually to lower the gear (no air pressure), the
> >> struts fell into the overcenter position but when the airplane was
moved
> > on
> >> the gear, one main gear collapsed with a slight side load.
> >
> > Does not much matter what type of aircraft you are doing this with. If
it
> > has an over center type down lock you use two pieces of wood and a "C"
> > clamp
> > to ensure the over center stays in place while you are moving it around
> > without air or hydraulic pressure in the system.
> >
> >> So, both situations are important, but if we are discussing whether the
> > gear
> >> is locked down or not, the position of the actuator piston and the
> >> locking
> >> balls is the key.
> >
> > The ball lock on the CJ, if in good clean and lubed condition will
engage
> > in
> > free fall almost 100% of the time on the main gear. The nose gear will
> > engage maybe 10% of the time since the engage position is beyond the
free
> > fall bottom position.
> > They will both fully engage every time with 100psi shop air.
> >
> > Cheers;
> > Walt
> >
> >> Joe----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Walt Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
> >> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear problems
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon"
<wlannon@cablerocket.com>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hey Joe;
> >> >
> >> > Have to disagree with your description of the CJ down locks. The
actual
> >> > gear
> >> > downlocks are the over centre position of the drag link knuckle. This
> > over
> >> > centre position ensures that all (not some) of the gear collapsing
load
> > is
> >> > directly transferred to the aircraft structure.
> >> > Were this not so and this load was carried through the actuating cyl.
> >> > piston
> >> > rod the result would be bending and failure of the rod (CJ nose gear-
> > main
> >> > gear failure would be somewhere else)
> >> > The ball locks are there to ensure that the drag link over centre
lock
> >> > stays
> >> > in place. If the ball lock fails the gear is unsafe and could fold
with
> >> > air
> >> > press. loss or taxi over rough ground, etc. Once engaged the ball
lock
> > is
> >> > designed to hold without continued air pressure and requires opposite
> > air
> >> > pressure to dis- engage.
> >> > All gear systems using the drag link over centre lock method
> >> > incorporate
> >> > some means of lock retention. The ball lock system is one of these.
> >> >
> >> > Happy New Year;
> >> > Walt
> >> >
> >> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca>
> >> >>
> >> >> There seems to be some confusion about gear down locks,
> >> >> Remember that even without up locks, the gear may fall down, but
will
> > not
> >> > lock without air pressure.
> >> >> Unlike the T6 or T28 which will lock mechanically at the overcenter
> >> > position of the gear strut.
> >> >>
> >> >> The ONLY down lock on the CJ6 or 52 is internal in the actuator, as
> >> >> the
> >> > pistons final movement independent of the rod position moves the
> >> > locking
> >> > balls into the lock grooves.
> >> >> Conversely, the gear will not unlock and retract without air
pressure
> > to
> >> > move the piston and balls out of the lock position.
> >> >>
> >> >> The over center position of the struts takes some of the load off
the
> >> > locking balls, but the gear is not safe unless locked down with air
> >> > pressure.
> >> >>
> >> >> Joe
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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