Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:20 AM - Good Movie....and yes it is related.... (Jeff Linebaugh)
2. 09:51 AM - Re: Bail Out (Ron Spencer)
3. 10:29 AM - Re: Bail Out (Jorgen Nielsen)
4. 10:33 AM - Re: Good Movie....and yes it is related.... (Daniel Fortin)
5. 10:36 AM - Re: bail out (Lee Taylor)
6. 11:58 AM - Re: Bail Out (Mark Williamson)
7. 03:30 PM - Various 'chute styles (Lee Taylor)
8. 06:57 PM - Re: bail out (Frank Haertlein)
9. 11:18 PM - [ Bob Fitzpatrick ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Good Movie....and yes it is related.... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
Yakers,
I just got turned on to a great movie that you might enjoy. It is called
Dark Blue World".
It is a WWII story about 2 Czech pilots that escaped to England to fly
Spitfires during the Battle of Britain. Of great interest to me was that the
story inter-twines the pilot's postwar captivity in Russia.
It has several really great, high quality digital Spitfire flying scenes-not
"computer produced". You will likely get some points with the spouse too, as
the movie is one of those "foreign" films...complete with subtitles! (Oh yes
.and it is a love story too...) Kelli enjoyed it!
I was not aware that the Czech and Pole pilots were considered a threat to
post-war Russia, and therefore held as prisoners...gives you a further
appreciation for our freedom, and the type of culture our aircraft came from
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Spencer" <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
Hi Mike, et al...
While at first glance you have used good logic regarding your decisions...
in the interest of safety to all, I must state that with all due respect to
you Mike, and the list...that much of what you have written contravenes
current aerobatic safety doctrine. Too much to go into here.
Suffice to say that detailed analysis of the aerobatic regime clearly proves
that the sky diver square rig is not only a poor choice but unsafe as well
due to the opening shock associated with an accelerated free fall, as in
exiting an aircraft plunging earthward.
Please check with a company like Strong Parachutes or Butler.
Good luck! -rs-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Beresford" <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Bail Out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Mike Beresford
> <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> Hi all
>
> David H wrote:
> "Would a thin back pack chute in a Yak 52 be ok? If
> it would be a good fit, possibly easier egress?"
>
> My Yak arrived without any seat parachutes. I prefer
> having a parachute available for aerobatics, so I
> looked around at the various options.
>
> In the end I decided to investigate the backpack
> option. I was swayed in this by a little bit of
> skydiving experience. With the backpack I was able to
> get a "square" canopy with a freebag deployment
> system. The packs were designed and built here in
> South Africa by Chris Dales of Chute Shop. Chute Shop
> is a manufacturer of sports skydiving equipment, with
> exports to the States - might be known to some of you.
>
> For those who are familiar with skydiving rigs, the
> pack is fitted with a 250 sq ft "Decelerator" 7 cell
> canopy. This is basically a standard reserve canopy
> used by students. I did consider getting a smaller
> canopy (I normally jump with a 150 sq ft Sabre), but I
> wanted the canopies to be usable by inexperienced (non
> experienced) people. I've seen skydiving students who
> have "frozen" after deployment, and failed to control
> their canopies in any way. The larger canopies
> minimise the risk of injury on landing, even without
> control inputs. The harness system is basically
> standard skydiving rig, including the reserve system.
> The straps are fitted with clip links for easy
> removal. No cutaway fitted - might be a problem in a
> water landing, but the straps themsleves have quick
> release clips. The container is about the same length
> as a normal skydiving rig, but since it only houses
> one canopy it is somewhat thinner. Chris even stitched
> a red star onto the strap covers ;-)
>
> Chris came out to the aircraft to do the measurements,
> and to make suggestions. They then sent me a
> prototype, which I found to be slightly too long. They
> modified the prototype, and when this proved
> satisfactory I ordered a second one.
>
> I'm very happy with my rig, but have found a problem
> with other users. When Chris came out to see the
> cockpit and make suggestions, we were sitting in the
> front cockpit. Apart from one flight a few years back,
> I've never sat in the rear cockpit. I didn't realise
> that the rear cockpit is shorter than the front.
> People in the rear cockpit complain that they can't
> use the rudder pedals properly, as their knees are "up
> around their ears". I've already got the rudder on
> full forward position. It seems that I might have to
> revert to a seat parachute for the rear cockpit.
>
> Blue skies
>
> Mike Beresford
> South Africa
>
>
> --- NapeOne@aol.com wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: NapeOne@aol.com
>>
>> Would a thin back pack chute in a Yak 52 be ok? If
>> it would be a good fit,
>> possibly easier egress?
>> David H.
>>
>>
>>
>> Contributions
>> any other
>> Forums.
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm
>> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Hi Mike
Is the canopy OK for deployment at high speed? Such as say after a
stall turn, you full power on, vertical down towards the ground, you
start the pull then realise the elevator jammed...as has happened to
some unfortunates.
By the time you get out, IF you can get out (probably highly unlikely
anyway), you going pretty fast, way faster than freefall. I know
nothing about chutes, but have been told most chutes would pop under
those conditions.
My backseaters use the standard Russian chute, with the "static line"
lanyard connected and the Kap3 set to open immediately at our highveld
elevation & density altitudes.
Like to try your chute sometime!
Regards
Jorgen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Mike Beresford
> Sent: 15 January 2005 08:55 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Bail Out
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Mike Beresford
> --> <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> Hi all
>
> David H wrote:
> "Would a thin back pack chute in a Yak 52 be ok? If
> it would be a good fit, possibly easier egress?"
>
> My Yak arrived without any seat parachutes. I prefer
> having a parachute available for aerobatics, so I
> looked around at the various options.
>
> In the end I decided to investigate the backpack
> option. I was swayed in this by a little bit of
> skydiving experience. With the backpack I was able to
> get a "square" canopy with a freebag deployment
> system. The packs were designed and built here in
> South Africa by Chris Dales of Chute Shop. Chute Shop
> is a manufacturer of sports skydiving equipment, with
> exports to the States - might be known to some of you.
>
> For those who are familiar with skydiving rigs, the
> pack is fitted with a 250 sq ft "Decelerator" 7 cell
> canopy. This is basically a standard reserve canopy
> used by students. I did consider getting a smaller
> canopy (I normally jump with a 150 sq ft Sabre), but I
> wanted the canopies to be usable by inexperienced (non
> experienced) people. I've seen skydiving students who
> have "frozen" after deployment, and failed to control
> their canopies in any way. The larger canopies
> minimise the risk of injury on landing, even without
> control inputs. The harness system is basically
> standard skydiving rig, including the reserve system.
> The straps are fitted with clip links for easy
> removal. No cutaway fitted - might be a problem in a
> water landing, but the straps themsleves have quick
> release clips. The container is about the same length
> as a normal skydiving rig, but since it only houses
> one canopy it is somewhat thinner. Chris even stitched
> a red star onto the strap covers ;-)
>
> Chris came out to the aircraft to do the measurements,
> and to make suggestions. They then sent me a
> prototype, which I found to be slightly too long. They
> modified the prototype, and when this proved
> satisfactory I ordered a second one.
>
> I'm very happy with my rig, but have found a problem
> with other users. When Chris came out to see the
> cockpit and make suggestions, we were sitting in the
> front cockpit. Apart from one flight a few years back,
> I've never sat in the rear cockpit. I didn't realise
> that the rear cockpit is shorter than the front.
> People in the rear cockpit complain that they can't
> use the rudder pedals properly, as their knees are "up
> around their ears". I've already got the rudder on
> full forward position. It seems that I might have to
> revert to a seat parachute for the rear cockpit.
>
> Blue skies
>
> Mike Beresford
> South Africa
>
>
> --- NapeOne@aol.com wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: NapeOne@aol.com
> >
> > Would a thin back pack chute in a Yak 52 be ok? If
> > it would be a good fit,
> > possibly easier egress?
> > David H.
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> >
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Good Movie....and yes it is related.... |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
Very good movie. I saw it again just last week on the Independent Film
Channel. It was filmed at Duxford in the Uk. One can recognize some of the
facilities used for the movie. Great aerial shots.
D
>From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: "yak-list@matronics. com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Yak-List: Good Movie....and yes it is related....
>Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:52:12 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jeff Linebaugh"
><jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
>
>Yakers,
>
>I just got turned on to a great movie that you might enjoy. It is called
>Dark Blue World".
>
>It is a WWII story about 2 Czech pilots that escaped to England to fly
>Spitfires during the Battle of Britain. Of great interest to me was that
>the
>story inter-twines the pilot's postwar captivity in Russia.
>
>It has several really great, high quality digital Spitfire flying
>scenes-not
>"computer produced". You will likely get some points with the spouse too,
>as
>the movie is one of those "foreign" films...complete with subtitles! (Oh
>yes
>.and it is a love story too...) Kelli enjoyed it!
>
>I was not aware that the Czech and Pole pilots were considered a threat to
>post-war Russia, and therefore held as prisoners...gives you a further
>appreciation for our freedom, and the type of culture our aircraft came
>from
>
>
>Jeff Linebaugh
>jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
>CJ-6P N621CJ
>Memphis, TN
>
>
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Guys, I'm almost sorry I opened this discussion---my only reason was to
try to inject a little reality into the idea of chutes.
The dead bottom line is very simple.
If you HAVE to get out, (or death is certain), DON'T HESITATE,
GET OUT! Or at least try. That's the most important lesson, don't EVER
give up.
AND, be mentally prepared to do so.
Just be fully aware that bailing out is very likely to be
extremely difficult, or impossible if that situation is in reality,
reality. And there are VERY few instances where that is really the
case. The airplane has to be completely uncontrollable, or you are
going to emergency-land in circumstances that make bailing out more
statistically survivable.
Water landings are arguably a bad thing. Engine failures at
night are potentially a bad thing. Really nasty terrain, like we have
here in the Rockies, maybe. Personally I'd rather put my plane down into
that terrain under control than under a parachute. Airplanes that are
too high-performance to make a safe dead-stick emergency landing. (The
military jets)
Parachutes aren't bad things, but they are an absolute
last-ditch option, and the reality is that if you really, really need to
get out, the statistics don't give you a very good chance. If it is the
last option, tho-------- NEVER, EVER GIVE UP.
Lee Taylor
All right, I have to tell you why I really learned that "NEVER GIVE UP"
lesson.
I was attending a fly-in/air show at Truckee (Lake Tahoe)
several years ago. It was a long, hot day, and after the show had
finally ended, a guy taxied out in his P-51, and started to do a little
airshow of his own. (I'm sorry, his name escapes me right now). He
came across the field in a high-speed, low pass, and pulled straight up.
He maintained the vertical too long, and I saw him lose speed.
At that point, I told myself, "That man's dead". The gyroscope of the
prop had taken over, and he COULD NOT push over. There was NO WAY that
a P-51 doing a tail slide from less than 2,000 agl was going to survive.
He torque-rolled and tail-slid, fell into an upright flat spin,
did 3/4 turn, then pitched straight nose-down. At that point, he
firewalled the throttle, and at the very last second, pulled as hard as
he could.
He recovered at the BOTTOM of the river canyon that goes along
the airport, well below the rim. And landed. Quick.
I shook his hand later, and told him he was either the world's
BEST pilot, or the luckiest, and the evidence said it was a combination
of both. I told him when I saw him stall out vertical, that I KNEW he
was dead.
His comment? "I knew so too, I just kept fighting."
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Williamson" <yakk52@verizon.net>
Is that really the case? Is there more opening shock on a pilot exiting an
aircraft than a skydiver traveling at terminal velocity (which, can be up to
190 mph depending on body position). From my understanding, these chutes
are TSO'd to at least 200mph and I think it's the same TSO as the round
emergency chutes (correct me if I'm wrong). I know that the square chutes
do use something called a "slider" to reduce opening shock. Personally I
like the idea of having a controllable chute versus a round chute.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Spencer" <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Bail Out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Spencer"
> <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
>
> Hi Mike, et al...
>
> While at first glance you have used good logic regarding your decisions...
> in the interest of safety to all, I must state that with all due respect
> to
> you Mike, and the list...that much of what you have written contravenes
> current aerobatic safety doctrine. Too much to go into here.
>
> Suffice to say that detailed analysis of the aerobatic regime clearly
> proves
> that the sky diver square rig is not only a poor choice but unsafe as well
> due to the opening shock associated with an accelerated free fall, as in
> exiting an aircraft plunging earthward.
>
> Please check with a company like Strong Parachutes or Butler.
>
> Good luck! -rs-
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Beresford" <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Bail Out
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Mike Beresford
>> <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk>
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> David H wrote:
>> "Would a thin back pack chute in a Yak 52 be ok? If
>> it would be a good fit, possibly easier egress?"
>>
>> My Yak arrived without any seat parachutes. I prefer
>> having a parachute available for aerobatics, so I
>> looked around at the various options.
>>
>> In the end I decided to investigate the backpack
>> option. I was swayed in this by a little bit of
>> skydiving experience. With the backpack I was able to
>> get a "square" canopy with a freebag deployment
>> system. The packs were designed and built here in
>> South Africa by Chris Dales of Chute Shop. Chute Shop
>> is a manufacturer of sports skydiving equipment, with
>> exports to the States - might be known to some of you.
>>
>> For those who are familiar with skydiving rigs, the
>> pack is fitted with a 250 sq ft "Decelerator" 7 cell
>> canopy. This is basically a standard reserve canopy
>> used by students. I did consider getting a smaller
>> canopy (I normally jump with a 150 sq ft Sabre), but I
>> wanted the canopies to be usable by inexperienced (non
>> experienced) people. I've seen skydiving students who
>> have "frozen" after deployment, and failed to control
>> their canopies in any way. The larger canopies
>> minimise the risk of injury on landing, even without
>> control inputs. The harness system is basically
>> standard skydiving rig, including the reserve system.
>> The straps are fitted with clip links for easy
>> removal. No cutaway fitted - might be a problem in a
>> water landing, but the straps themsleves have quick
>> release clips. The container is about the same length
>> as a normal skydiving rig, but since it only houses
>> one canopy it is somewhat thinner. Chris even stitched
>> a red star onto the strap covers ;-)
>>
>> Chris came out to the aircraft to do the measurements,
>> and to make suggestions. They then sent me a
>> prototype, which I found to be slightly too long. They
>> modified the prototype, and when this proved
>> satisfactory I ordered a second one.
>>
>> I'm very happy with my rig, but have found a problem
>> with other users. When Chris came out to see the
>> cockpit and make suggestions, we were sitting in the
>> front cockpit. Apart from one flight a few years back,
>> I've never sat in the rear cockpit. I didn't realise
>> that the rear cockpit is shorter than the front.
>> People in the rear cockpit complain that they can't
>> use the rudder pedals properly, as their knees are "up
>> around their ears". I've already got the rudder on
>> full forward position. It seems that I might have to
>> revert to a seat parachute for the rear cockpit.
>>
>> Blue skies
>>
>> Mike Beresford
>> South Africa
>>
>>
>> --- NapeOne@aol.com wrote:
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: NapeOne@aol.com
>>>
>>> Would a thin back pack chute in a Yak 52 be ok? If
>>> it would be a good fit,
>>> possibly easier egress?
>>> David H.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Contributions
>>> any other
>>> Forums.
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>>> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm
>>> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Various 'chute styles |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Several years ago, I bought my personal chute from Alan Silver,
mentioned here several times already.
I told him I wanted a chute as thin as possible, and a
"wrap-around" where it would be both a backpack and a seatpack, with
appropriate pads for lumbar support and etc.
He did a magnificent job with my "Long Softie", and I have worn
it extensively on trips, even very long ones. It is exactly what I
wanted, and very comfortable. You can't go wrong talking to Alan. He
is one of those experts that really is.
Lee Taylor
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Mark
I have a similar story to tell. Was demonstrating my 52 to a prospective
purchaser near Kern Valley airport. As pilot in command, I handed over
the airplane to him as we were climbing out.
It started as a slow, smooth bank to the right. I thought he was in
control of the airplane and about to make a low pass near the airport
area or make a simulated ground strafing run. I sat there and watched
what was happening thinking he was in control. It soon became apparent
that something was very wrong.
I said "what are you doing"? He responded by saying "what are you
doing"? We were headed towards terrain impact. I had never flown with
him before so I was cautious of his flying and I think that is what
alerted me to something being wrong. If I had not intervened the plane
would have impacted terrain just southwest of Kern Valley.
Frank
N9110M
YAK-52
L71
Message 9
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| Subject: | [ Bob Fitzpatrick ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bob Fitzpatrick <rmfitz@direcway.com>
Subject: 3 pictures-Yak-52 tunnels
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/rmfitz@direcway.com.01.15..2005/index.html
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