Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:45 AM - Re: Cold weather starting procedure (Brian Lloyd)
2. 05:05 AM - Re: Cold weather starting procedure (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 06:30 AM - Re: Cold weather starting procedure (Gus Fraser)
4. 06:30 AM - Re: Cold weather starting procedure (Gus Fraser)
5. 06:31 AM - Re: Cold weather starting procedure (Jon Boede)
6. 06:58 AM - Re: Cold weather starting procedure (Genzlinger, Reade)
7. 08:26 AM - Re: Cold starting (Lee Taylor)
8. 10:28 AM - Pre heat and C-4y (Andrei)
9. 11:08 AM - Re: Cold weather starting procedure (Jorgen Nielsen)
10. 01:44 PM - Generator current draw (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
11. 01:59 PM - Re: Generator current draw (Gus Fraser)
12. 01:59 PM - tamiami (Terry)
13. 02:49 PM - Cold starting (Dean Courtney)
14. 04:18 PM - Yak clip (Jerome Van der Schaar)
15. 06:36 PM - Re: Generator current draw (Brian Lloyd)
16. 08:05 PM - Event Registration - final (Drew Blahnick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cold weather starting procedure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:45 PM, Walt Murphy wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Murphy <waltmurphy@charter.net>
>
> Since this is my 1st winter with the CJ , I would be very interested in
> reading your best cold weather starting procedure.
> I have the stock 285 HP engine and it starts well in the warmer months
> but is difficult to get running when the temps are low.
Remember that avgas doesn't vaporize nearly as well when cold. Just
increase the amount of prime you are using. Try two shots per blade for
six blades when priming.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cold weather starting procedure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
To add to Mark's excellent description of cold weather starting, one might
seriously consider installing an EZ-Heat pad on the engine sump and in the
northern climates, on the oil cooler, then covering the cowling with a old,
queen-size or king-size comforter. The large comforter allows you to tuck
some of the material back into the cowl cheeks too. If you leave the heat
pads on overnight, you'll be amazed at how toasty warm the inside of the
cowling gets with heat pads on the engine sump and oil tank.
In Russia, where the Yak 52's were parked on the ramp year round, when the
day's flying was finished, the oil was drained from the engine sump, oil
tank and oil cooler and brought inside. Before the first flight of the next
day, the oil was preheated then poured back into the engine and oil tank
before starting.
As Mark says, preheating the oil and the engine, in combination with proper
priming, is the key to getting a good, quick cold start AND most importantly
reducing internal wear.
Our northern climate expert on round engines and CJ's (plus many other
things too), Walt Lannon, I'm sure can enlighten us on his recommended cold
starting procedures. Whatever he says, I'd take it as being "The Gospel
according to Walt".
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich GS11 Mark G" <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Cold weather starting procedure
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
> I own a YAK-50, but I would imagine that starting issues are the same with
> the CJ.
>
> If I may be so bold, my first recommendation would be to avoid even TRYING
> to start one of these radials when the temp. is extremely cold and the
> engine and oil itself are cold soaked. I did this ONE TIME. It took a
> really SCARY long amount of time before I ever saw ANY oil pressure on the
> gage. In retrospect, I was an idiot for waiting to see oil pressure come
up
> for as long as I did! Outside air at that time was about 15 degrees and I
> was using Phillips 25-60W oil.
>
> The very next purchase I made was for EZ-Heat pads (two) that I placed on
> the oil reservoir itself. I pull the engine through after pre-heating the
> oil about 20 times, while also putting in about 10-15 "strokes" of
> primer.... not all at once, but about 5 strokes at a time. This seems to
> loosen the engine up quite a bit. My friend flying a Suke has an EZ-Heat
> pad on the front engine sump itself too... but I decided this was not
worth
> the effort.
>
> Anyway, I then get into the aircraft and if it is REALLY cold...
> sub-freezing..... shoot in another few primes. Keeping the engine
throttle
> WAY back, just cracked... I start it and have the primer already OUT and
> ready to shove in for more prime. The real trick to starting the thing
cold
> is to master the priming pump.
>
> After it starts, you might easily be required to shoot in a few more
primes
> just to keep it running. I would suggest NOT pumping the throttle... yes,
> that does put in more fuel, but it also is asking for a backfire in my
> opinion.
>
> After the engine is RUNNING... leaving the primer in the prime position
lets
> the engine run richer than normal for another 30 seconds or so... this is
a
> matter of personal preference. Keep RPM'S LOW until engine oil temp comes
> up.
>
> Other hints: Some recommend blocking the oil cooler inlet completely and
> have a friend remove it before flight.... this works. I've gone another
> way, but this does indeed work well on Suke's.
>
> A lot of people recommend NOT using the oil dilution system. I concur.
You
> have to use it in advance anyway... and it is hard to predict what the
exact
> temp. is going to be the next time you go fly... and thinning the oil with
> gas is just not my bag.
>
> I put my money on pre-heating the oil COMPLETELY with EZ-Heat pads. I
> REALLY wish I had a good way to pre-heat the whole engine. I've been
> eye-balling those new propane portable heater/blower things. Cheap, clean
> heat... just not sure yet how to blow the heat into the engine properly.
>
> Luckily, I live in North Carolina, so I can avoid extreme cold weather
> flying to begin with, plus my poor 50 has NO COCKPIT HEAT! A fact that
> makes extreme cold weather ops kind of a dead issue anyway. :-)
>
> I'll be interested to hear what others recommend.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walt Murphy [mailto:waltmurphy@charter.net]
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Cold weather starting procedure
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Murphy <waltmurphy@charter.net>
>
> Since this is my 1st winter with the CJ , I would be very interested in
> reading your best cold weather starting procedure.
> I have the stock 285 HP engine and it starts well in the warmer months
> but is difficult to get running when the temps are low.
> Thanks,
> Walt
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Cold weather starting procedure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
If you are hanger based just steal your wifes best comforter put it over
the cowl and hang a 100W bulb in there with the cowl flaps closed. Then,
for the oil cooler Yak made a 90 deg heat vent for that to direct heat from
a space heater. The light bulb works great and giving the oil cooler a
blast really makes the difference, better that than bursting the cooler
matrix. I am not sure that I agree with 15 primes before starting the
manual is quite clear on 9 being the max number of primes. I totally agree
with being ready to prime when she fires. In NJ we have the two lock rule.
Your aircraft must be protected by two locks. Our director of aviation is a
friend of mine and he busted my chops for not having the locks so I told
him if he could start it he could have it, he declined.
BTW my SP91 is in the final stages of painting those of you that know my 52
will spot a similarity :)))))))
http://gusfraser.com/N791SP/page.html
Just wait till MTW can you say +12/-10 at 360 deg a second YAHOOOOOOO !
Gus
...... Original Message .......
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:34:32 -0500 Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil> wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
>I own a YAK-50, but I would imagine that starting issues are the same with
>the CJ.
>
>If I may be so bold, my first recommendation would be to avoid even TRYING
>to start one of these radials when the temp. is extremely cold and the
>engine and oil itself are cold soaked. I did this ONE TIME. It took a
>really SCARY long amount of time before I ever saw ANY oil pressure on the
>gage. In retrospect, I was an idiot for waiting to see oil pressure come
up
>for as long as I did! Outside air at that time was about 15 degrees and I
>was using Phillips 25-60W oil.
>
>The very next purchase I made was for EZ-Heat pads (two) that I placed on
>the oil reservoir itself. I pull the engine through after pre-heating the
>oil about 20 times, while also putting in about 10-15 "strokes" of
>primer.... not all at once, but about 5 strokes at a time. This seems to
>loosen the engine up quite a bit. My friend flying a Suke has an EZ-Heat
>pad on the front engine sump itself too... but I decided this was not worth
>the effort.
>
>Anyway, I then get into the aircraft and if it is REALLY cold...
>sub-freezing..... shoot in another few primes. Keeping the engine throttle
>WAY back, just cracked... I start it and have the primer already OUT and
>ready to shove in for more prime. The real trick to starting the thing cold
>is to master the priming pump.
>
>After it starts, you might easily be required to shoot in a few more primes
>just to keep it running. I would suggest NOT pumping the throttle... yes,
>that does put in more fuel, but it also is asking for a backfire in my
>opinion.
>
>After the engine is RUNNING... leaving the primer in the prime position
lets
>the engine run richer than normal for another 30 seconds or so... this is a
>matter of personal preference. Keep RPM'S LOW until engine oil temp comes
>up.
>
>Other hints: Some recommend blocking the oil cooler inlet completely and
>have a friend remove it before flight.... this works. I've gone another
>way, but this does indeed work well on Suke's.
>
>A lot of people recommend NOT using the oil dilution system. I concur.
You
>have to use it in advance anyway... and it is hard to predict what the
exact
>temp. is going to be the next time you go fly... and thinning the oil with
>gas is just not my bag.
>
>I put my money on pre-heating the oil COMPLETELY with EZ-Heat pads. I
>REALLY wish I had a good way to pre-heat the whole engine. I've been
>eye-balling those new propane portable heater/blower things. Cheap, clean
>heat... just not sure yet how to blow the heat into the engine properly.
>
>Luckily, I live in North Carolina, so I can avoid extreme cold weather
>flying to begin with, plus my poor 50 has NO COCKPIT HEAT! A fact that
>makes extreme cold weather ops kind of a dead issue anyway. :-)
>
>I'll be interested to hear what others recommend.
>
>Mark Bitterlich
>N50YK
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Walt Murphy [mailto:waltmurphy@charter.net]
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Yak-List: Cold weather starting procedure
>
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Murphy <waltmurphy@charter.net>
>
>Since this is my 1st winter with the CJ , I would be very interested in
>reading your best cold weather starting procedure.
>I have the stock 285 HP engine and it starts well in the warmer months
>but is difficult to get running when the temps are low.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cold weather starting procedure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
Ok rather than taking your wifes stuff stiff the dog :)
Gus
...... Original Message .......
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:52:10 EST cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
>Lot of good points there. Year ago we had a dog that couldn't be trusted
>inside our home. I fixed up an ordinary cardboard box with a 100w light
bulb and
>put the dog's favorite blanket inside. Even on the coldest days, the dog
was
>quite comfortable in there. I never measured the difference between
outside
>and inside temps, but it was noticeable to the touch.
>
>Has anyone ever thought about using a heat lamp? One of these could be
stuck
>up under the cowl at the bottom exit. It would heat the metal via
conduction
>and radiation. If an ordinary blanket were draped over the cowling, this
>would insulate the cowl from the outside air and retain the heat somewhat.
This
>wouldn't be fast, but might be set up the night before a planned flight.
>Years ago when we lived in CT. at the local airport (DXR) I noted that one
guy
>regularly used a hair dryer, to remove snow and ice from his wings. He
did this
>by sticking the dryer in the inspection holes. This heated the air inside
>the wing. Aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat, the heated air
heated the
>alumium, and the ice and snow would slide right off.
> Burrrrrrrr God! I'm glad to live in Florida.
>
>Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cold weather starting procedure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
I've found that tucking a hair dryer up under the cowl when I first get to
the hangar makes a BIG difference in how easily it starts. Even 10
minutes of hot air usually spares me having to get out the SCUBA bottle.
We only get a few days in the 20s in Texas so I've never invested in
anything more elaborate.
Jon
Message 6
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| Subject: | Cold weather starting procedure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Genzlinger, Reade" <ReadeG@Cairnwood.com>
Similar process -
Using propane heater I heat engine and oil cooler alternately for about 30
min. I also use dip stick heater (some help but not great). Oil tank
heating pad seems the best option.
Priming is key. Use the procedures in the manuals and then sit in cockpit
for 2 minutes (Gena Elfimov tip). You'll get a start in first blade (M14P).
Warm up is at 42% (per manual). I have used Phillips 25/60 for 7 years and
seems to be just fine. Really helps in these cold starts. Had no problems
on Monday when it was 12F (the good news is that I was flying the Yak to a
heated hanger for condition inspection). This is when I am jealous of Carl
and Jill!!
Reade
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:DSAVARESE@elmore.rr.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:04 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cold weather starting procedure
>
> As Mark says, preheating the oil and the engine, in
> combination with proper priming, is the key to getting a
> good, quick cold start AND most importantly reducing internal wear.
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Cold starting |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Since I live here in Denver, (where it does "occasionally" get a little
cooler), I came up with what I think is a pretty neat way of preheating.
I found a cheapie, small halogen floodlamp at my local home supply
store, one meant for outside floodlight mounting, which has a
cast-aluminum housing. These little monsters put out astronomical
amounts of heat, and after trimming off all the extraneous metal of the
hood, mount, etc, and taking off the glass front and shield cage, I have
a quite small unit that will fit inside the cowl flaps easily.
Throw a blanket over the engine, stuff the ends tightly into all
the openings, turn on this now-effective "heat lamp", and you have a
quite effective heat source that has very little in the way of dangerous
heating elements that are usual in other heating sources. Plus at only
about $10, I haven't found anything cheaper or easier.
I find that just about an hour or two will bring my block of ice
up to an evenly-warmed stage that it will run nicely. Plus this method
warms the entire engine, not just the oil. I have started at -10
degrees using this.
If you want to keep it warm overnight, just a standard trouble
light, with the blanket cover, will work just fine. Don't know that I
would use the halogen overnight. Shouldn't be a problem, but --------
Lee Taylor
PS re oil flow at cold temps. If you cold-start your engine, the oil
flow to the significant parts IS slower, but be aware that your OIL
PRESSURE INDICATION is going to be a whole lot slower than the actual
oil flow to the engine. That is a very tiny oil pressure line to the
gage, (or sensor, if you have a remote-sensing unit), and the cold oil
in that tiny line is going to severely slow down your oil pressure
indication, far more than the actual oil flow to the engine is going to
be affected. The gage pressure won't show until long after the engine
actually has pressure. There isn't THAT much of a problem with the
engine getting pressure.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Pre heat and C-4y |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Andrei" <Alitouev@nyc.rr.com>
First.
I have original Yak winter cowl cover (two leers of fabric and cotton between).
I have kerosene 50,000 BTU heater, I build sheet metal duct with two flax sleeves.
One sleeve I put in the oil radiator, another below left exhaust pipe. Fire
extinguisher near by. Tern heater on, and go throw the blades (21 my number-
go figure). Turn heater off, I clime in cockpit- check temperature of oil,
engine had.
Tern heater on, go throw blades, then remove sleeve from oil radiator and install
in right side, above right exhaust pipe. Go throw blades.
Very important- air is very hot! Watch for all rubber parts.
Before, I made duct for the heater, I used blue plastic cower. Over cowl to the
ground in tent shape, put heater inside, go throw the blades.
50,000 BTU kerosene heaters you can use in remount locations. You need 400 Watt
converter and car buster.
Propane heater convert to 12 Volt mach easier- replace 110 volt motor to 12 Volt
(no igniting and flame control).
Second.
Friend of mine was a test jumper for 5 years. All accidents, crashes went throw
their organization. They annualize accident and made the rules should pilot leave
the aircraft or keep flaying. From friend of my knowledge, he recalls only
two time pilot leave Yak with parachute.
You can jump from Yak in Russia.
Pilot living aircraft with parachute in two situations: first- engine not running
and no place to land, and second- airplane out of control (physical damage)
I am an experienced skydiver (4,500 plus jumps), flying small, fast canopies (80-
90 sq.feet). But in situation as plane out off control, I prefer Russian round
canap=E9 as C-4Y. This canap=E9 works from (70 miters) 250 feet and
up, from (120 km/h) 67 nuts to (400 km/h) 230 nuts. (Maximum speed on free fall
I reached 210 land MPH)
Last week, friend of mine had premature opening on set fly (speed 180-190 MPH).
He pull several mussels on his shoulder and sum how managed to land canopy.
C-4Y with no in puts is neutral canopy (goes with the wind). Its helps when you
unconscious (no warranty, you will not heat the tail of the plain on the way
down).
And aging- This is my opinion, I can be wrong.
Blue skies.
Andrei
Message 9
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| Subject: | Cold weather starting procedure |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
I have all original new Yak covers, including padded engine cover used
presumably for preheating? Also metal engine heating duct. If anyone
wants I can take pics of it - I have never needed it here in SA.
Jorgen
Message 10
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| Subject: | Generator current draw |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Gents,
Doug Sapp suggested that I look at DC THERMAL for some slick 24 volt cabin
heaters for my YAK-50. I have, and they look very impressive and one would
probably be perfect for my airplane.
The downside is that as one might expect, they draw a lot of current. At 24
volts they have models that draw 25/30/35 amps.
My question:
Just what is the maximum recommended continious current draw limitation for
the standard unmodified generator on an M-14P, to include the regulation
system. I.E., the Generator itself might be rated for a larger current draw
than the wiring and regulator of the aircraft are capable of. So, just what
would be the maximum additional current draw over "stock" that anyone can
recommend..... and.... where would any experts recommend "tapping in" for a
draw this large?
Thanks for any and all input.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Generator current draw |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
I was told 70 amps. I suspect that if you needed a field weld repair you
could infact use the generator :) only kidding about the welding.
Gus
...... Original Message .......
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:49:50 -0500 Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil> wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
>
>Gents,
>
>Doug Sapp suggested that I look at DC THERMAL for some slick 24 volt cabin
>heaters for my YAK-50. I have, and they look very impressive and one would
>probably be perfect for my airplane.
>
>The downside is that as one might expect, they draw a lot of current. At 24
>volts they have models that draw 25/30/35 amps.
>
>My question:
>
>Just what is the maximum recommended continious current draw limitation for
>the standard unmodified generator on an M-14P, to include the regulation
>system. I.E., the Generator itself might be rated for a larger current
draw
>than the wiring and regulator of the aircraft are capable of. So, just
what
>would be the maximum additional current draw over "stock" that anyone can
>recommend..... and.... where would any experts recommend "tapping in" for a
>draw this large?
>
>Thanks for any and all input.
>
>Mark Bitterlich
>N50YK
>
>
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Terry" <talew@comcast.net>
Sam & Drew,
I think the Tamiami location would be great.
Terry
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dean Courtney" <deancourtney696@hotmail.com>
FWIW,
Flew a fleet of DC-3 & BE18 freighters in the dead of winter, here's what we
did:
Use Multi-Viscosity oil
Kept the oil warm, hanger, heat pads, drain and take with you, run the
engine every half hour.
ALWAYS have a fireman for EVERY start. You probably won't see the intake
fire, and with no one to tell you to keep cranking, or put it out.......
External pre heaters? A joke on 15 gallons of cold soaked oil. Blow the heat
in the carb intake so the fuel will vaporize better is the best use for
them.
Don't get goosey with the throttle. Primer is what the engine is running on
when cold, if you open the throttle anything but VERY gingerly, and damn
little, while she's loaping along, it WILL back fire. This voids your entire
intake of burnable mixture and it will die. Just pump that primer if you
want more RPM, and you will be priming for a long time.
Our entire fleet of working airplanes had the oil dilute equipment thrown in
the trash.
A cup of hot coffee will do wonders on frosted spark plugs.
Keep your oil warm, blow hot air in the intake, and pump the primer like you
would the throttle on a 67 Dodge, and you'll be fine. Just PLEASE have a
fireman watching all this.
Cheers,
Dean Courtney
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerome Van der Schaar" <jvds30@hotmail.com>
Well, if you have nothing better to do at the moment, you always can
download a small clip of some Yak's at
http://www.yakkes.com/downloads/YakPatrol.avi (12mb)
Check 6
Jerome
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Generator current draw |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:49 PM, Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> Just what is the maximum recommended continious current draw
> limitation for
> the standard unmodified generator on an M-14P, to include the
> regulation
> system. I.E., the Generator itself might be rated for a larger
> current draw
> than the wiring and regulator of the aircraft are capable of.
It should be 50A. Always derate by 10% just because so that means you
can run at 45A without too much concern.
> So, just what
> would be the maximum additional current draw over "stock" that anyone
> can
> recommend..... and.... where would any experts recommend "tapping in"
> for a
> draw this large?
I installed one of the 24V, 25A radiant space heaters in my CJ.
Frankly, it was a waste of time and money. It just couldn't put a dent
in the cold. It was so ineffective that I doubt the 35A unit would make
enough of a difference.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 16
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| Subject: | Event Registration - final |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Drew Blahnick <lacloudchaser@yahoo.com>
Folks,
The online event registration form no longer requires you to select the event in
the form for RPA members, just select "register" from the event list and it
auto-fills in the event name.
Non members using online registration still must select the event, but we've restructered
the non member registration form to insure its clear.
Hope this helps, thanks Deon,
Drew
Drew Blahnick
RPA
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