Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:11 AM - Re: CJ Insurance (cpayne@joimail.com)
2. 04:25 AM - Re: how much is a newton? (KJKimball@aol.com)
3. 06:08 AM - Newtons (Tim Gagnon)
4. 06:25 AM - Re: Newtons (Gerald Sweidan)
5. 08:43 AM - Re: Newtons (cjpilot710@aol.com)
6. 09:35 AM - Re: fire extinguisher systems (Jerry Painter)
7. 09:36 AM - Re: fire extinguisher systems (Jerry Painter)
8. 09:38 AM - Re: fire extinguisher systems (Jerry Painter)
9. 10:59 AM - Re: fire extinguisher system (cjpilot710@aol.com)
10. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: fire extinguisher systems (Doug Sapp)
11. 12:41 PM - RPA and Your Email (Drew Blahnick)
12. 02:18 PM - Newtons (Duncan aka Russ)
13. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: fire extinguisher systems (Ernest Martinez)
14. 04:59 PM - The Family Frew (ByronMFox@aol.com)
15. 07:57 PM - Aluminum Bronze Bushings (Frank Haertlein)
16. 09:46 PM - Re: Aluminum Bronze Bushings (Dennis Von Ruden)
17. 09:58 PM - Re: Aluminum Bronze Bushings (Doug Sapp)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: CJ Insurance |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Tom,
Thanks for posting the update. All whom attended Waycross
used a radio gear callout on the break. However, we know
based on registration numbers, that about 1/2 of the Yak/CJ
owners are NOT RPA members and they may not be aware that
there is an insurance problem.
Sooo, how do we reach out and communicate with those folks?
Perhaps a membership drive of sorts?
BTW, yes I know the FAA definition but I define an
"incident" as *stuff happens* but an "accident" as somebody
screwed up, either in maintenance/preflight or in the air. I
regard an "accident" as one of those giant Florida turkey
vultures tearing off parts of my airplane, or a tire sinking
into an unseen chuckhole on rollout, etc.
Craig Payne
Craig Payne
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: how much is a newton? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
L39,
You are correct. I did provide an incorrect conversion. Not a number I
calculated but an error the same. I must have had pushed the wrong button on the
HP48SX while aiming for the N to LBF in the unit conversion menu. Apologies
to Pappy and others for the miss.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/
http://www.pittsmodel12.com/
Message 3
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Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:06:53 -0500
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Newtons (Fig Type) are 55.0 calories ea.
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gerald Sweidan" <gerald.sweidan@sweidan.co.za>
Someone else started it...
Newtons fifth law - "The last drop is always in the pants."
DO NOT Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Subject: Yak-List: Newtons
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Newtons (Fig Type) are 55.0 calories ea.
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 2/1/2005 9:26:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gerald.sweidan@sweidan.co.za writes:
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!
I GOT IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOD LOVE YA !!!!
YEEEEEEKS !!!!!!!!!! :)
Pappy
(I just wanted to find out the pull of a certain solenoid.)
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gerald Sweidan"
<gerald.sweidan@sweidan.co.za>
Someone else started it...
Newtons fifth law - "The last drop is always in the pants."
DO NOT Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Subject: Yak-List: Newtons
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Newtons (Fig Type) are 55.0 calories ea.
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: fire extinguisher systems |
IMItemGuid: {65D62E0B-6EA8-4D95-A5C9-F34A63A846FD}
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Elmar,
This may be a little removed from extinguishment systems, but perhaps
interesting. I've heard from reliable sources about a CJ that took off with
pilot and CFI for an unexpectedly exciting and unintentionally advanced
instructional flight a couple of years ago. Training is usually a Good
Thing, even advanced training, sometimes especially with unexpected
distractions thrown in. Except in this case, the fuel strainer drain safety
wire had been removed for draining fuel (good idea), but not replaced (bad
idea). (I know, you can see it coming already!) The owner/pilot just
didn't want to be bothered with safety wire every time he needed to drain a
little fuel (a common thought) and I guess the CFI either wasn't real
familiar with the airplane (not good) or didn't want to press the point (not
good in this case, either). The strainer is located very close to one
exhaust outlet. Unfortunately, the drain valve vibrated open in flight,
turning the airplane into a gasoline powered roman candle and burning all
the paint off the side of the airplane. Fortunately, they had presence of
mind to shut off the fuel, which soon extinguished the fire. Only problem
was they now had a pretty poor glider on top of an overcast. Yes, they and
the airplane survived.
More to the point, as you'll soon discover, the CJ's weakest link is the
exhaust system. If you get 400 hours out of a new one you're doing well.
Since the stock exhaust is made of mild steel, rust, heat and corrosion
(inside and out) will soon do their work, especially at pipe joints and
intersections, small radius bends and at the ends, leaving you with a
perforated blowtorch. Get rid of the stock unit ASAP and get a stainless
setup. Don't bother with ceramic coating etc. Get stainless. You can even
get a heat muff setup to warm your hands on those cold (summer) days here in
the PNW.
Cliff makes some very good points. Remember that oil burns, too. Keep it
clean and leak-free. I would also recommend that all flexible lines have
fire sleeve installed.
A little farther afield: A few years ago Fred Ihlenburg (Yakkity Yaks--are
they still in business?) used to advertise a CJ with a multi-outlet-pipe
exhaust that exited from the side cowling openings (I think Mike Filucci has
that airplane now), like a Sea Fury etc. Looked pretty cool. Don't know if
stainless etc. was installed to protect the fuselage sides. And I suppose
carbon monoxide could have been a problem--maybe not. Understand it was
pretty noisy. I've long thought that sealing up the cowling nice and tight,
fairing it to the fuselage sides and bottom, along with a simple nose gear
strut fairing to close up some of the gear slot and maybe using an exhaust
augmenter out the sides would be a good way to speed things up, either with
or without inlet vanes. Add a nice spinner and a dishpan to reduce the
inlet size. If you just take the vanes off you'll get a nice little
speed-up, but excess cooling is a problem (even in summer, esp. here in the
frozen north). Resident speed merchant is Craig Payne who can give your
more ideas if you're into that kind of thing.
And, welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the airplane.
Jerry Painter
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
To Pappy and Elmar. Re Fire extinguishing systems:
Any fire ext sys you put on a radial engine has to have a means of
closing in zones 2, 3 and 4. Characteristically, radials have no way to
close in zone 1, which encompasses the nose case. But what do you have to
burn out there in zone 1? More than you might think on some big radials
with a magnesium nose case, You probably haven't seen a real engine fire
which defies extinguishing until you've seen a magnesium
fire from a runaway prop in the process of seizing up or flying off the
engine.. It is an illuminating experience which is best viewed on a dark
night for effect. Further, there isn't much time to get the beast on the
ground before it burns through the tin and into the fuel tanks followed by
wing failure.
Pappy, If you get a zone 1 fire on your B-24, you may recall from
some earlier training on a different equipment, the first priority is to
Feather because you don't have extinguishing to zone 1 and the only way to
extinguish is to feather and dive to blow it out. Feathering is best
accomplished at a lower IAS which preceeds the dive.
Elmar, I don't know if your CJ has a magnesium nose case, but if
you have retained the cooling gills on the airplane you DO have a means of
enclosing zone 1. The purpose of enclosure is to keep the extinguishing
agent from being evacuated before it can be effective The greatest risk of
fire in your CJ comes from the fluid lines in zone 2. Check them frequently
for brittleness and stiffness as well as integrity of hose to fitting. Watch
for signs of SEEPAGE both through the hose and at the fittings. Contrary to
general knowledge, there have been about 5 instances of engine fires in the
YAK and CJ series of airplanes. Most of these occurrences are due to failure
to change the hoses at proper intervals and/or use of wrong ( spelled
AMERICAN ) size hoses with Russian fittings. ( "Looks right"aint good enough
here ). Manufacturer's recommendation on the YAK series is all hoses
changed every 5 years. Brake lines too!
Elmar, Your zone 3 vulnerability ( if CJ is like YAKs } includes
the fuel tank area forward of the cockpit, Does your airplane have a
stainless steele firewall by way of original manufacture or later
modification? In the YAKS this gives you a little more time to get the fire
out, or put it on the ground . Don't be too choosey as to WHERE, you don,t
have the luxury of TIME.
One thing more, check the band clamps securing the flexible exhaust
manifolds. With rust comes weakness and porosity. A hole or separation in
the exhaust assy. can act as a blow torch on a fuel or oil line. Look for
signs of discoloration around the exhaust assy. and related area. You
can't see enough with the cowling closed all the time, Take the tin off
frequently!
Best Wishes and Safe Flying
CLIFF UMSCHEID, YAK 50
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: fire extinguisher systems |
IMItemGuid: {65D62E0B-6EA8-4D95-A5C9-F34A63A846FD}
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Elmar,
This may be a little removed from extinguishment systems, but perhaps
interesting. I've heard from reliable sources about a CJ that took off with
pilot and CFI for an unexpectedly exciting and unintentionally advanced
instructional flight a couple of years ago. Training is usually a Good
Thing, even advanced training, sometimes especially with unexpected
distractions thrown in. Except in this case, the fuel strainer drain safety
wire had been removed for draining fuel (good idea), but not replaced (bad
idea). (I know, you can see it coming already!) The owner/pilot just
didn't want to be bothered with safety wire every time he needed to drain a
little fuel (a common thought) and I guess the CFI either wasn't real
familiar with the airplane (not good) or didn't want to press the point (not
good in this case, either). The strainer is located very close to one
exhaust outlet. Unfortunately, the drain valve vibrated open in flight,
turning the airplane into a gasoline powered roman candle and burning all
the paint off the side of the airplane. Fortunately, they had presence of
mind to shut off the fuel, which soon extinguished the fire. Only problem
was they now had a pretty poor glider on top of an overcast. Yes, they and
the airplane survived.
More to the point, as you'll soon discover, the CJ's weakest link is the
exhaust system. If you get 400 hours out of a new one you're doing well.
Since the stock exhaust is made of mild steel, rust, heat and corrosion
(inside and out) will soon do their work, especially at pipe joints and
intersections, small radius bends and at the ends, leaving you with a
perforated blowtorch. Get rid of the stock unit ASAP and get a stainless
setup. Don't bother with ceramic coating etc. Get stainless. You can even
get a heat muff setup to warm your hands on those cold (summer) days here in
the PNW.
Cliff makes some very good points. Remember that oil burns, too. Keep it
clean and leak-free. I would also recommend that all flexible lines have
fire sleeve installed.
A little farther afield: A few years ago Fred Ihlenburg (Yakkity Yaks--are
they still in business?) used to advertise a CJ with a multi-outlet-pipe
exhaust that exited from the side cowling openings (I think Mike Filucci has
that airplane now), like a Sea Fury etc. Looked pretty cool. Don't know if
stainless etc. was installed to protect the fuselage sides. And I suppose
carbon monoxide could have been a problem--maybe not. Understand it was
pretty noisy. I've long thought that sealing up the cowling nice and tight,
fairing it to the fuselage sides and bottom, along with a simple nose gear
strut fairing to close up some of the gear slot and maybe using an exhaust
augmenter out the sides would be a good way to speed things up, either with
or without inlet vanes. Add a nice spinner and a dishpan to reduce the
inlet size. If you just take the vanes off you'll get a nice little
speed-up, but excess cooling is a problem (even in summer, esp. here in the
frozen north). Resident speed merchant is Craig Payne who can give your
more ideas if you're into that kind of thing.
And, welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the airplane.
Jerry Painter
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
To Pappy and Elmar. Re Fire extinguishing systems:
Any fire ext sys you put on a radial engine has to have a means of
closing in zones 2, 3 and 4. Characteristically, radials have no way to
close in zone 1, which encompasses the nose case. But what do you have to
burn out there in zone 1? More than you might think on some big radials
with a magnesium nose case, You probably haven't seen a real engine fire
which defies extinguishing until you've seen a magnesium
fire from a runaway prop in the process of seizing up or flying off the
engine.. It is an illuminating experience which is best viewed on a dark
night for effect. Further, there isn't much time to get the beast on the
ground before it burns through the tin and into the fuel tanks followed by
wing failure.
Pappy, If you get a zone 1 fire on your B-24, you may recall from
some earlier training on a different equipment, the first priority is to
Feather because you don't have extinguishing to zone 1 and the only way to
extinguish is to feather and dive to blow it out. Feathering is best
accomplished at a lower IAS which preceeds the dive.
Elmar, I don't know if your CJ has a magnesium nose case, but if
you have retained the cooling gills on the airplane you DO have a means of
enclosing zone 1. The purpose of enclosure is to keep the extinguishing
agent from being evacuated before it can be effective The greatest risk of
fire in your CJ comes from the fluid lines in zone 2. Check them frequently
for brittleness and stiffness as well as integrity of hose to fitting. Watch
for signs of SEEPAGE both through the hose and at the fittings. Contrary to
general knowledge, there have been about 5 instances of engine fires in the
YAK and CJ series of airplanes. Most of these occurrences are due to failure
to change the hoses at proper intervals and/or use of wrong ( spelled
AMERICAN ) size hoses with Russian fittings. ( "Looks right"aint good enough
here ). Manufacturer's recommendation on the YAK series is all hoses
changed every 5 years. Brake lines too!
Elmar, Your zone 3 vulnerability ( if CJ is like YAKs } includes
the fuel tank area forward of the cockpit, Does your airplane have a
stainless steele firewall by way of original manufacture or later
modification? In the YAKS this gives you a little more time to get the fire
out, or put it on the ground . Don't be too choosey as to WHERE, you don,t
have the luxury of TIME.
One thing more, check the band clamps securing the flexible exhaust
manifolds. With rust comes weakness and porosity. A hole or separation in
the exhaust assy. can act as a blow torch on a fuel or oil line. Look for
signs of discoloration around the exhaust assy. and related area. You
can't see enough with the cowling closed all the time, Take the tin off
frequently!
Best Wishes and Safe Flying
CLIFF UMSCHEID, YAK 50
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: fire extinguisher systems |
IMItemGuid: {65D62E0B-6EA8-4D95-A5C9-F34A63A846FD}
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Elmar,
This may be a little removed from extinguishment systems, but perhaps
interesting. I've heard from reliable sources about a CJ that took off with
pilot and CFI for an unexpectedly exciting and unintentionally advanced
instructional flight a couple of years ago. Training is usually a Good
Thing, even advanced training, sometimes especially with unexpected
distractions thrown in. Except in this case, the fuel strainer drain safety
wire had been removed for draining fuel (good idea), but not replaced (bad
idea). (I know, you can see it coming already!) The owner/pilot just
didn't want to be bothered with safety wire every time he needed to drain a
little fuel (a common thought) and I guess the CFI either wasn't real
familiar with the airplane (not good) or didn't want to press the point (not
good in this case, either). The strainer is located very close to one
exhaust outlet. Unfortunately, the drain valve vibrated open in flight,
turning the airplane into a gasoline powered roman candle and burning all
the paint off the side of the airplane. Fortunately, they had presence of
mind to shut off the fuel, which soon extinguished the fire. Only problem
was they now had a pretty poor glider on top of an overcast. Yes, they and
the airplane survived.
More to the point, as you'll soon discover, the CJ's weakest link is the
exhaust system. If you get 400 hours out of a new one you're doing well.
Since the stock exhaust is made of mild steel, rust, heat and corrosion
(inside and out) will soon do their work, especially at pipe joints and
intersections, small radius bends and at the ends, leaving you with a
perforated blowtorch. Get rid of the stock unit ASAP and get a stainless
setup. Don't bother with ceramic coating etc. Get stainless. You can even
get a heat muff setup to warm your hands on those cold (summer) days here in
the PNW.
Cliff makes some very good points. Remember that oil burns, too. Keep it
clean and leak-free. I would also recommend that all flexible lines have
fire sleeve installed.
A little farther afield: A few years ago Fred Ihlenburg (Yakkity Yaks--are
they still in business?) used to advertise a CJ with a multi-outlet-pipe
exhaust that exited from the side cowling openings (I think Mike Filucci has
that airplane now), like a Sea Fury etc. Looked pretty cool. Don't know if
stainless etc. was installed to protect the fuselage sides. And I suppose
carbon monoxide could have been a problem--maybe not. Understand it was
pretty noisy. I've long thought that sealing up the cowling nice and tight,
fairing it to the fuselage sides and bottom, along with a simple nose gear
strut fairing to close up some of the gear slot and maybe using an exhaust
augmenter out the sides would be a good way to speed things up, either with
or without inlet vanes. Add a nice spinner and a dishpan to reduce the
inlet size. If you just take the vanes off you'll get a nice little
speed-up, but excess cooling is a problem (even in summer, esp. here in the
frozen north). Resident speed merchant is Craig Payne who can give your
more ideas if you're into that kind of thing.
And, welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the airplane.
Jerry Painter
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
To Pappy and Elmar. Re Fire extinguishing systems:
Any fire ext sys you put on a radial engine has to have a means of
closing in zones 2, 3 and 4. Characteristically, radials have no way to
close in zone 1, which encompasses the nose case. But what do you have to
burn out there in zone 1? More than you might think on some big radials
with a magnesium nose case, You probably haven't seen a real engine fire
which defies extinguishing until you've seen a magnesium
fire from a runaway prop in the process of seizing up or flying off the
engine.. It is an illuminating experience which is best viewed on a dark
night for effect. Further, there isn't much time to get the beast on the
ground before it burns through the tin and into the fuel tanks followed by
wing failure.
Pappy, If you get a zone 1 fire on your B-24, you may recall from
some earlier training on a different equipment, the first priority is to
Feather because you don't have extinguishing to zone 1 and the only way to
extinguish is to feather and dive to blow it out. Feathering is best
accomplished at a lower IAS which preceeds the dive.
Elmar, I don't know if your CJ has a magnesium nose case, but if
you have retained the cooling gills on the airplane you DO have a means of
enclosing zone 1. The purpose of enclosure is to keep the extinguishing
agent from being evacuated before it can be effective The greatest risk of
fire in your CJ comes from the fluid lines in zone 2. Check them frequently
for brittleness and stiffness as well as integrity of hose to fitting. Watch
for signs of SEEPAGE both through the hose and at the fittings. Contrary to
general knowledge, there have been about 5 instances of engine fires in the
YAK and CJ series of airplanes. Most of these occurrences are due to failure
to change the hoses at proper intervals and/or use of wrong ( spelled
AMERICAN ) size hoses with Russian fittings. ( "Looks right"aint good enough
here ). Manufacturer's recommendation on the YAK series is all hoses
changed every 5 years. Brake lines too!
Elmar, Your zone 3 vulnerability ( if CJ is like YAKs } includes
the fuel tank area forward of the cockpit, Does your airplane have a
stainless steele firewall by way of original manufacture or later
modification? In the YAKS this gives you a little more time to get the fire
out, or put it on the ground . Don't be too choosey as to WHERE, you don,t
have the luxury of TIME.
One thing more, check the band clamps securing the flexible exhaust
manifolds. With rust comes weakness and porosity. A hole or separation in
the exhaust assy. can act as a blow torch on a fuel or oil line. Look for
signs of discoloration around the exhaust assy. and related area. You
can't see enough with the cowling closed all the time, Take the tin off
frequently!
Best Wishes and Safe Flying
CLIFF UMSCHEID, YAK 50
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: fire extinguisher system |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Elamr,
Cliff is right. When I spook I was doing so in short hand without going
into detail. Some more of my thoughts.
If you have a CJ-6 with the old mild steel exhaust system, you have
potential fire hazard. The very best thing you can do to remove that hazard,
is put
on a stainless steel system. Without a doubt the old system is dangerous if
you do not take SPECIAL CARE to inspect it every flight. I think I assumed
you already had one on the airplane.
On the M-14p (I'm not sure about HS6 & 6a) the oil sump between #5 & #6
cylender is made of magnesium. I believe this is the only part that is.
As Cliff points out maintenance is the best way to obtain fire suppression.
Hoses and lines must be tight, in good condition, and properly assembled.
They are designed that way for that very reason. You could cover them with a
fire proof sleeves which in case of fire, would protect them and keep them
from burn though and adding their contents to a fire.
Engine fires will most likely be a fuel fire. The very first thing to do is
turn off the fuel. Not the mags or mixture control. Leave them alone. You
need to get rid of the fuel that feeding the fire, let the engine help you
do that. If is not a fuel fire, at least you've removed the fuel as a
possible additional fuel for the fire. Most likely the fuel shut off valve is
at
the fire wall (is on CJ). This leave a very short distance to the carburetor.
The engine will dispose of that fuel in a short time. (Try shutting down
your engine one time with just using the fuel shut off valve at cruise power
and see how long it takes.)
As an aside on the B-17 & B-24 this is what we do if have an engine fire.
Fuel shut off.
Fire extinguisher open
After engine quits, Feather button push.
After prop stops;
Mags off
Mixture idle cut.
BTW these airplanes can feather props at any airspeed within reason. The
feather pump are electric driven and not dependent on engine oil pressure or
RPM. If we have a runaway prop we can and do control it with the feather
button.
(a bit of Trivia. What is the fastest speed ever obtained by a B-24?
Answer - 426 mph)
If putting a fire extinguisher on your CJ will make you feel more
comfortable, by all means do it. However nothing in airplanes comes free. Weight
adds
drag via the extra lift needed to carry it. One more item to have to
maintained. Cost. But what are the chances of having a fire if you have
maintained the airplane properly? Well, we know they not unknown and Cliff points
out
usually because something was over looked maintenance wise.
I can see a somewhat complicated system (with the cowl arrangement) if you
took advantage of the louvers in front and choose to cover a possible Zone 1
fire. Most likely Zone 2 and 3 are where fires happen. On the B-24 we
installed ordinary aluminum 3/4 inch tube behind the last roll of cylinders, at
their base. This tube had (about 1/8") holes drilled every 6" inches or so. Our
bottles are mounted in the wheel well between the engine and are selectable
via switching. You would NOT need anything that complicated. I have no idea
on how much agent you'd need.
Whatever you decide, it'll will make a nice winter project and the rest of
us will want to see it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/31/2005 9:35:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
netmaster15@juno.com writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
To Pappy and Elmar. Re Fire extinguishing systems:
Any fire ext sys you put on a radial engine has to have a means
of closing in zones 2, 3 and 4. Characteristically, radials have no way
to close in zone 1, which encompasses the nose case. But what do you have
to burn out there in zone 1? More than you might think on some big
radials with a magnesium nose case, You probably haven't seen a real
engine fire which defies extinguishing until you've seen a magnesium
fire from a runaway prop in the process of seizing up or flying off the
engine.. It is an illuminating experience which is best viewed on a dark
night for effect. Further, there isn't much time to get the beast on the
ground before it burns through the tin and into the fuel tanks followed
by wing failure.
Pappy, If you get a zone 1 fire on your B-24, you may recall
from some earlier training on a different equipment, the first priority
is to Feather because you don't have extinguishing to zone 1 and the only
way to extinguish is to feather and dive to blow it out. Feathering is
best accomplished at a lower IAS which preceeds the dive.
Elmar, I don't know if your CJ has a magnesium nose case, but if
you have retained the cooling gills on the airplane you DO have a means
of enclosing zone 1. The purpose of enclosure is to keep the
extinguishing agent from being evacuated before it can be effective The
greatest risk of fire in your CJ comes from the fluid lines in zone 2.
Check them frequently for brittleness and stiffness as well as integrity
of hose to fitting.
Watch for signs of SEEPAGE both through the hose and at the fittings.
Contrary to general knowledge, there have been about 5 instances of
engine fires in the YAK and CJ series of airplanes. Most of these
occurrences are due to failure to change the hoses at proper intervals
and/or use of wrong ( spelled AMERICAN ) size hoses with Russian
fittings. ( "Looks right"aint good enough here ). Manufacturer's
recommendation
on the YAK series is all hoses changed every 5 years. Brake lines too!
Elmar, Your zone 3 vulnerability ( if CJ is like YAKs } includes
the fuel tank area forward of the cockpit, Does your airplane have a
stainless steele firewall by way of original manufacture or later
modification? In the YAKS this gives you a little more time to get the
fire out, or put it on the ground . Don't be too choosey as to WHERE, you
don,t have the luxury of TIME.
One thing more, check the band clamps securing the flexible
exhaust manifolds. With rust comes weakness and porosity. A hole or
separation in the exhaust assy. can act as a blow torch on a fuel or oil
line. Look for signs of discoloration around the exhaust assy. and
related
area. You can't see enough with the cowling closed all the time, Take
the tin off frequently!
Best Wishes and Safe Flying
CLIFF UMSCHEID, YAK 50
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:34:38 EST cjpilot710@aol.com writes:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 1/31/2005 1:05:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> tamara_b@telus.net writes:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: tamara_b@telus.net
>
>
> Hi, my name is Elmar Hegenauer and I am in the process of
> purchasing a Nanchang CJ-6A (I am still waiting for better
> weather conditions to bring it to Vancouver Island).
> Is there any kind of an automatic fire extinguisher system for
> the engine compartment available (e.g. those systems used
> in power boats)?
> Thank you in advance. Cheers Elmar
>
> I've never heard of one on the CJs and have never heard of a CJ
> engine fire.
> They just as rare on these engines as US spam cans. Don't mean it
> can't
> happen.
>
> I would not put any faith in automatic system. If I were to install
> a fire
> extinguisher system it would be manually operated and independent of
> the
> electrical system.
>
> The B-24 I fly for the Collings foundation went though the war
> without a
> fire suppression system, however one was put on during its 3 million
> dollar
> restoration 15 years ago. Quite frankly, the only thing its done is
> make the
> insurance companies a little more comfortable and an engine change
> more
> complicated.
>
> Pappy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | RE: fire extinguisher systems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
One addition to Jerry's comments, is the firewall, folks it's aluminum and
as such is not much of a firewall when compared to what we are all used to
seeing here in the US. The CJ that Jerry is talking about belongs to a good
friend of mine and believe me Jerry's version while very accurate is not
totally descriptive when it comes to the panic on board that CJ that day.
The front seater was in fact a guy that had NEVER flown before, the intercom
was crappy and there were two complete layers of overcast, and the airport
is located in a valley ringed by mountains. Every time they would wobble
the engine back to life the whole thing would erupt in flames. The right
hand tire was on fire when they landed. Once they figured out that the fire
would go out by it's self after they quit pumping on the wobble pump, they
settled down and shot the approach. The pilot, a ex VN vet, short time
resident of 2 F104's and long time resident of the Hanoi Hilton, is one of
the coolest sticks under fire that I have ever seen. All this prompted me
to make sure that our next shipment of 6 CJs will all have new Stainless
steel firewall installed in them as well as the stainless steel exhaust
systems. Anyone interested in one of these fully remanufactured CJ6's
contact me off list.
A few points about the new stainless steel exhaust system and what works on
what. First if you are a 285 hp CJ driver thinking about converting to a
M14B or P, the best system (IMHO) to use is the stainless Yak 18T system
which also comes stock with a cabin heater. Another plus is that this
system uses the big wide Russian type clamps. There is also a slip joint
system offered by Aircraft Exhaust, I really have no experience with this
system, but I worry about replacement parts should they decide to stop
production, it also has no cabin heater. The Yak 18T system is easily
modified for use on the 285 hp engines by simply changing out the nuts which
attach the pipe to the cylinder. The Yak 18T system also fits the CJ6 cowls
well because the lower exit pipes come out in the proper position to fit
nicely through the existing holes in the lower cowls. If you use a Yak 52
type system you will have to butcher out the holes in the lower cowls, which
makes for a real ugly cowl once it is patched.
The new stainless steel 285 hp Chinese system is exactly like the old stock
steel system except it is made from stainless steel. This means that you
can replace your old standard steel system piece by piece as it slowly dies.
Normally the first to rust/rot out is the lower left, next is the upper
left, then the lower right, the balance of the tubes seem to have a pretty
long life. You should keep a close eye on the lower pipes because of their
proximity to the fuel and oil filter and hoses.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Subject: Yak-List: RE: fire extinguisher systems
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Elmar,
This may be a little removed from extinguishment systems, but perhaps
interesting. I've heard from reliable sources about a CJ that took off with
pilot and CFI for an unexpectedly exciting and unintentionally advanced
instructional flight a couple of years ago. Training is usually a Good
Thing, even advanced training, sometimes especially with unexpected
distractions thrown in. Except in this case, the fuel strainer drain safety
wire had been removed for draining fuel (good idea), but not replaced (bad
idea). (I know, you can see it coming already!) The owner/pilot just
didn't want to be bothered with safety wire every time he needed to drain a
little fuel (a common thought) and I guess the CFI either wasn't real
familiar with the airplane (not good) or didn't want to press the point (not
good in this case, either). The strainer is located very close to one
exhaust outlet. Unfortunately, the drain valve vibrated open in flight,
turning the airplane into a gasoline powered roman candle and burning all
the paint off the side of the airplane. Fortunately, they had presence of
mind to shut off the fuel, which soon extinguished the fire. Only problem
was they now had a pretty poor glider on top of an overcast. Yes, they and
the airplane survived.
More to the point, as you'll soon discover, the CJ's weakest link is the
exhaust system. If you get 400 hours out of a new one you're doing well.
Since the stock exhaust is made of mild steel, rust, heat and corrosion
(inside and out) will soon do their work, especially at pipe joints and
intersections, small radius bends and at the ends, leaving you with a
perforated blowtorch. Get rid of the stock unit ASAP and get a stainless
setup. Don't bother with ceramic coating etc. Get stainless. You can even
get a heat muff setup to warm your hands on those cold (summer) days here in
the PNW.
Cliff makes some very good points. Remember that oil burns, too. Keep it
clean and leak-free. I would also recommend that all flexible lines have
fire sleeve installed.
A little farther afield: A few years ago Fred Ihlenburg (Yakkity Yaks--are
they still in business?) used to advertise a CJ with a multi-outlet-pipe
exhaust that exited from the side cowling openings (I think Mike Filucci has
that airplane now), like a Sea Fury etc. Looked pretty cool. Don't know if
stainless etc. was installed to protect the fuselage sides. And I suppose
carbon monoxide could have been a problem--maybe not. Understand it was
pretty noisy. I've long thought that sealing up the cowling nice and tight,
fairing it to the fuselage sides and bottom, along with a simple nose gear
strut fairing to close up some of the gear slot and maybe using an exhaust
augmenter out the sides would be a good way to speed things up, either with
or without inlet vanes. Add a nice spinner and a dishpan to reduce the
inlet size. If you just take the vanes off you'll get a nice little
speed-up, but excess cooling is a problem (even in summer, esp. here in the
frozen north). Resident speed merchant is Craig Payne who can give your
more ideas if you're into that kind of thing.
And, welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the airplane.
Jerry Painter
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
To Pappy and Elmar. Re Fire extinguishing systems:
Any fire ext sys you put on a radial engine has to have a means of
closing in zones 2, 3 and 4. Characteristically, radials have no way to
close in zone 1, which encompasses the nose case. But what do you have to
burn out there in zone 1? More than you might think on some big radials
with a magnesium nose case, You probably haven't seen a real engine fire
which defies extinguishing until you've seen a magnesium
fire from a runaway prop in the process of seizing up or flying off the
engine.. It is an illuminating experience which is best viewed on a dark
night for effect. Further, there isn't much time to get the beast on the
ground before it burns through the tin and into the fuel tanks followed by
wing failure.
Pappy, If you get a zone 1 fire on your B-24, you may recall from
some earlier training on a different equipment, the first priority is to
Feather because you don't have extinguishing to zone 1 and the only way to
extinguish is to feather and dive to blow it out. Feathering is best
accomplished at a lower IAS which preceeds the dive.
Elmar, I don't know if your CJ has a magnesium nose case, but if
you have retained the cooling gills on the airplane you DO have a means of
enclosing zone 1. The purpose of enclosure is to keep the extinguishing
agent from being evacuated before it can be effective The greatest risk of
fire in your CJ comes from the fluid lines in zone 2. Check them frequently
for brittleness and stiffness as well as integrity of hose to fitting. Watch
for signs of SEEPAGE both through the hose and at the fittings. Contrary to
general knowledge, there have been about 5 instances of engine fires in the
YAK and CJ series of airplanes. Most of these occurrences are due to failure
to change the hoses at proper intervals and/or use of wrong ( spelled
AMERICAN ) size hoses with Russian fittings. ( "Looks right"aint good enough
here ). Manufacturer's recommendation on the YAK series is all hoses
changed every 5 years. Brake lines too!
Elmar, Your zone 3 vulnerability ( if CJ is like YAKs } includes
the fuel tank area forward of the cockpit, Does your airplane have a
stainless steele firewall by way of original manufacture or later
modification? In the YAKS this gives you a little more time to get the fire
out, or put it on the ground . Don't be too choosey as to WHERE, you don,t
have the luxury of TIME.
One thing more, check the band clamps securing the flexible exhaust
manifolds. With rust comes weakness and porosity. A hole or separation in
the exhaust assy. can act as a blow torch on a fuel or oil line. Look for
signs of discoloration around the exhaust assy. and related area. You
can't see enough with the cowling closed all the time, Take the tin off
frequently!
Best Wishes and Safe Flying
CLIFF UMSCHEID, YAK 50
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | RPA and Your Email |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Drew Blahnick <lacloudchaser@yahoo.com>
Folks,
We sent out the electronic newsletter this morning to RPA members (even if they
were historical members), the new software allows us to determine if a member
is able to recieve the newsletter, or if it the email bounced and you were not
able to recieve it:
Do me a huge favor, take a look at this list. If it is your current or past email,
if you would like to recieve RPA newsletters and bulletins in the future
do this:
1. If the email is good, check your spam folder for the RPA Newsletter and attempt
to allow RPA mail. I will use a from address of admin@flyredstar.org
2. If the email is outdated, no longer valid - update it online at www.flyredstar.org in account administration (website is currently down for MX and will be up in a day or so, Deon is on it). Or cut and paste the bad email here with your new one and send direct to me, and later update the website account administration form (that updates the master database, where we get your email address for the newsletter).
3. If the email is someone elses, and you know him/her, shoot them this email.
Please email me directly off list, thank you.
Hard Bounces:
catfish4u@bellsouth.net
RVatorN513J@msn.com
jscrothers@prescott-us.net
Venmig@Erols.com
david.farley2@aspentech.com
finleycj6@juno.com
williamczech6@msn.com
elmohahn@attbi.com
randairetv@aol.com
talewis@attbi.com
brian@lloyd.com
middprop@aol.com
HaroldHMuller@hotmail.com, (syntax error, I've fixed it, but not showing a recieve)
cpayne@joimail.com
vrunyan@sterlingcapital.com
adsavar@gte.net
pfs@qtwlaw.com
shultzjw@navair.navy.mil
dastrawn@mindspring.com
VinnyTirado@aol.com
Lewvm@aol.com
GWhite727@aol.com
dnwhitmer1@direcpc.com
sabrina@gesoco.com
Soft Bounces:
TWOWINGSRUS@EARTHLINK.com
wwbender@earthlink.net
mike@aircraftsales.com
wheelsyakpilot@comcast.net
---------------------------------
Message 12
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|
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Duncan aka Russ" <Duncan1574@hotmail.com>
A newton is .43 of one henway.
Russ
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: fire extinguisher systems |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Doug,
I have the Aircraft Exhaust system on my CJ. They in fact DO come with
an optional heater muff if you want. They also come with standard with
stainless steel collars which screw on to the exhaust port. I've had
no problems whatsoever with the system after over 100 hours.
Ernie
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:13:51 -0800, Doug Sapp <rvfltd@televar.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> One addition to Jerry's comments, is the firewall, folks it's aluminum and
> as such is not much of a firewall when compared to what we are all used to
> seeing here in the US. The CJ that Jerry is talking about belongs to a good
> friend of mine and believe me Jerry's version while very accurate is not
> totally descriptive when it comes to the panic on board that CJ that day.
> The front seater was in fact a guy that had NEVER flown before, the intercom
> was crappy and there were two complete layers of overcast, and the airport
> is located in a valley ringed by mountains. Every time they would wobble
> the engine back to life the whole thing would erupt in flames. The right
> hand tire was on fire when they landed. Once they figured out that the fire
> would go out by it's self after they quit pumping on the wobble pump, they
> settled down and shot the approach. The pilot, a ex VN vet, short time
> resident of 2 F104's and long time resident of the Hanoi Hilton, is one of
> the coolest sticks under fire that I have ever seen. All this prompted me
> to make sure that our next shipment of 6 CJs will all have new Stainless
> steel firewall installed in them as well as the stainless steel exhaust
> systems. Anyone interested in one of these fully remanufactured CJ6's
> contact me off list.
>
> A few points about the new stainless steel exhaust system and what works on
> what. First if you are a 285 hp CJ driver thinking about converting to a
> M14B or P, the best system (IMHO) to use is the stainless Yak 18T system
> which also comes stock with a cabin heater. Another plus is that this
> system uses the big wide Russian type clamps. There is also a slip joint
> system offered by Aircraft Exhaust, I really have no experience with this
> system, but I worry about replacement parts should they decide to stop
> production, it also has no cabin heater. The Yak 18T system is easily
> modified for use on the 285 hp engines by simply changing out the nuts which
> attach the pipe to the cylinder. The Yak 18T system also fits the CJ6 cowls
> well because the lower exit pipes come out in the proper position to fit
> nicely through the existing holes in the lower cowls. If you use a Yak 52
> type system you will have to butcher out the holes in the lower cowls, which
> makes for a real ugly cowl once it is patched.
>
> The new stainless steel 285 hp Chinese system is exactly like the old stock
> steel system except it is made from stainless steel. This means that you
> can replace your old standard steel system piece by piece as it slowly dies.
> Normally the first to rust/rot out is the lower left, next is the upper
> left, then the lower right, the balance of the tubes seem to have a pretty
> long life. You should keep a close eye on the lower pipes because of their
> proximity to the fuel and oil filter and hoses.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: fire extinguisher systems
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Elmar,
>
> This may be a little removed from extinguishment systems, but perhaps
> interesting. I've heard from reliable sources about a CJ that took off with
> pilot and CFI for an unexpectedly exciting and unintentionally advanced
> instructional flight a couple of years ago. Training is usually a Good
> Thing, even advanced training, sometimes especially with unexpected
> distractions thrown in. Except in this case, the fuel strainer drain safety
> wire had been removed for draining fuel (good idea), but not replaced (bad
> idea). (I know, you can see it coming already!) The owner/pilot just
> didn't want to be bothered with safety wire every time he needed to drain a
> little fuel (a common thought) and I guess the CFI either wasn't real
> familiar with the airplane (not good) or didn't want to press the point (not
> good in this case, either). The strainer is located very close to one
> exhaust outlet. Unfortunately, the drain valve vibrated open in flight,
> turning the airplane into a gasoline powered roman candle and burning all
> the paint off the side of the airplane. Fortunately, they had presence of
> mind to shut off the fuel, which soon extinguished the fire. Only problem
> was they now had a pretty poor glider on top of an overcast. Yes, they and
> the airplane survived.
>
> More to the point, as you'll soon discover, the CJ's weakest link is the
> exhaust system. If you get 400 hours out of a new one you're doing well.
> Since the stock exhaust is made of mild steel, rust, heat and corrosion
> (inside and out) will soon do their work, especially at pipe joints and
> intersections, small radius bends and at the ends, leaving you with a
> perforated blowtorch. Get rid of the stock unit ASAP and get a stainless
> setup. Don't bother with ceramic coating etc. Get stainless. You can even
> get a heat muff setup to warm your hands on those cold (summer) days here in
> the PNW.
>
> Cliff makes some very good points. Remember that oil burns, too. Keep it
> clean and leak-free. I would also recommend that all flexible lines have
> fire sleeve installed.
>
> A little farther afield: A few years ago Fred Ihlenburg (Yakkity Yaks--are
> they still in business?) used to advertise a CJ with a multi-outlet-pipe
> exhaust that exited from the side cowling openings (I think Mike Filucci has
> that airplane now), like a Sea Fury etc. Looked pretty cool. Don't know if
> stainless etc. was installed to protect the fuselage sides. And I suppose
> carbon monoxide could have been a problem--maybe not. Understand it was
> pretty noisy. I've long thought that sealing up the cowling nice and tight,
> fairing it to the fuselage sides and bottom, along with a simple nose gear
> strut fairing to close up some of the gear slot and maybe using an exhaust
> augmenter out the sides would be a good way to speed things up, either with
> or without inlet vanes. Add a nice spinner and a dishpan to reduce the
> inlet size. If you just take the vanes off you'll get a nice little
> speed-up, but excess cooling is a problem (even in summer, esp. here in the
> frozen north). Resident speed merchant is Craig Payne who can give your
> more ideas if you're into that kind of thing.
>
> And, welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the airplane.
>
> Jerry Painter
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
>
> To Pappy and Elmar. Re Fire extinguishing systems:
> Any fire ext sys you put on a radial engine has to have a means of
> closing in zones 2, 3 and 4. Characteristically, radials have no way to
> close in zone 1, which encompasses the nose case. But what do you have to
> burn out there in zone 1? More than you might think on some big radials
> with a magnesium nose case, You probably haven't seen a real engine fire
> which defies extinguishing until you've seen a magnesium
> fire from a runaway prop in the process of seizing up or flying off the
> engine.. It is an illuminating experience which is best viewed on a dark
> night for effect. Further, there isn't much time to get the beast on the
> ground before it burns through the tin and into the fuel tanks followed by
> wing failure.
> Pappy, If you get a zone 1 fire on your B-24, you may recall from
> some earlier training on a different equipment, the first priority is to
> Feather because you don't have extinguishing to zone 1 and the only way to
> extinguish is to feather and dive to blow it out. Feathering is best
> accomplished at a lower IAS which preceeds the dive.
> Elmar, I don't know if your CJ has a magnesium nose case, but if
> you have retained the cooling gills on the airplane you DO have a means of
> enclosing zone 1. The purpose of enclosure is to keep the extinguishing
> agent from being evacuated before it can be effective The greatest risk of
> fire in your CJ comes from the fluid lines in zone 2. Check them frequently
> for brittleness and stiffness as well as integrity of hose to fitting. Watch
> for signs of SEEPAGE both through the hose and at the fittings. Contrary to
> general knowledge, there have been about 5 instances of engine fires in the
> YAK and CJ series of airplanes. Most of these occurrences are due to failure
> to change the hoses at proper intervals and/or use of wrong ( spelled
> AMERICAN ) size hoses with Russian fittings. ( "Looks right"aint good enough
> here ). Manufacturer's recommendation on the YAK series is all hoses
> changed every 5 years. Brake lines too!
> Elmar, Your zone 3 vulnerability ( if CJ is like YAKs } includes
> the fuel tank area forward of the cockpit, Does your airplane have a
> stainless steele firewall by way of original manufacture or later
> modification? In the YAKS this gives you a little more time to get the fire
> out, or put it on the ground . Don't be too choosey as to WHERE, you don,t
> have the luxury of TIME.
> One thing more, check the band clamps securing the flexible exhaust
> manifolds. With rust comes weakness and porosity. A hole or separation in
> the exhaust assy. can act as a blow torch on a fuel or oil line. Look for
> signs of discoloration around the exhaust assy. and related area. You
> can't see enough with the cowling closed all the time, Take the tin off
> frequently!
>
> Best Wishes and Safe Flying
>
> CLIFF UMSCHEID, YAK 50
>
>
>
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com
Several weeks back, knowing my wife, Mary, and I would be traveling to New
Zealand, I asked this august body if there were any members near Auckland. I
thought it would be fun to meet another Red Star pilot from afar. Immediately,
up
jumped CJ owner Graeme Frew. (Quiz: How do you pronounce Graeme?)
Not only did Graeme respond, but he, and delightful wife, Sue, had us to
dinner at their home last night. ...And what a dinner! Complete with homemade ice
cream and chocolate truffles for dessert. When was the last time any of us had
homemade ice cream and truffles? My mother never did that, and I thought she
did everything.
There are not two more engaging people on globe than Sue and Graeme.
Moreover, they have three extremely polite young sons, 7,9 &11(I admire precision),
who actually speak intelligible English and have a bedtime. Truly the Kiwis will
inherit the Earth.
No doubt all of this is because Sue & Graeme are former Royal New Zealand Air
Force officers. Graeme flew Andovers and C-130s in the military and now 767s
for Air New Zealand. Sue saw duty in such garden spots as Mogadishu. In short,
they're very cool!
Many, many thanks again for a lovely evening.
...Blitz
PS: Oh, to quote him, "Graeme is pronounced Graham, like Graham Cracker. It's
the English spelling. I get all the time when I'm in the US." Yes, I felt
like a dufuss.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Aluminum Bronze Bushings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yakkers
Still no answer on my question about ALUMINUM BRONZE bushings so I'll
post again in hopes that someone will have an answer...........
PS Check out the link at the bottom of the post :)
On the advice of a local machinist, I'm considering installation of what
is known as "ALUMINUM BRONZE" bushings in all of the joints that make up
the shimmy damper on my 52. The machinist says that the new "ALUMINUM
BRONZE" material is much stronger and longer lasting than the
traditional sintered bronze bushings. Before I give him the go ahead I'd
like to get any opinions on the use of this material for bushings on an
aircraft.
Thanks in advance!
Frank
N9110M
YAK-52
L71
http://www.tinyurl.com/4yx2z
Message 16
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| Subject: | Aluminum Bronze Bushings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dennis Von Ruden" <dvonruden@generalequip.com>
Frank:
We have use thousands and thousands of oil impregnated bearings in
construction products of our manufacture for over 50 years. There are a
number of materials available. You might want to do an internet search
for some updated information. I have experience with the typical bronze
(including the Super Oilite materials) and iron materials. Both work
very well as long as the engineering guidelines are maintained. Since
this is not a new engineering design. It's not rocket scientist 101.
It's really John Deere A technology. It's probably safe to assume the
standard bronze material will deliver very good service life as long as
they are properly machined or sized and lubricated. That's the secret.
Sleeve type bearings normally have PV factors that must be maintained to
maximize wear. PV factors take into account rotational speeds and
applied loads. We "size" the bearings with special broaches during
installation. We don't ream. These types of bearings will also have a
closure rate that needs to be considered if they are not "sized".
Closure is similar to a spring constant. The bearing actually closes or
"shrinks" when it is pressed into a casting or similar mounting
assembly. The closure rate can be easily calculated from the materials
supplied by the bearing manufacturer.
The iron alloy material works equally well and has higher load
capacities. In theory, it should have a longer service life over the
bronze material with the same, applied loads. Again, the correct
machining process is critically important so the microscopic cells are
not closed, thus preventing the impregnated oil from wicking. If that
happens, all you have is a bronze or iron bushing (not a bearing) with
minimal lubrication and reduced load properties.
Sleeve type bearings should never be greased. Grease only closes the
microscopic cells and leads to accelerated wear. Shaft finish (RMS) is
also critical to maximize bearing service life. A rough shaft (I like to
specify 16 RMS or better) will only accelerate bearing wear.
I have no experience with the aluminum bronze material, but would guess
the load capacity is reduced over the bronze and iron materials. But,
then again, Briggs and Stratton built millions of engines that had no
special sleeve bearing material. Machining tolerances and a thin oil
film from a splash system mowed a lot of grass over the years. You can't
argue with success.
A good machinist will study the engineering literature before producing
the parts. Tool insert design, speed and feed along with allowed
tolerances are very important. Nothing spooky. This data is readily
available from any material supplier.
Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
dvonruden@generalequip.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Haertlein [mailto:yak52driver@earthlink.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Aluminum Bronze Bushings
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yakkers
Still no answer on my question about ALUMINUM BRONZE bushings so I'll
post again in hopes that someone will have an answer...........
PS Check out the link at the bottom of the post :)
On the advice of a local machinist, I'm considering installation of what
is known as "ALUMINUM BRONZE" bushings in all of the joints that make up
the shimmy damper on my 52. The machinist says that the new "ALUMINUM
BRONZE" material is much stronger and longer lasting than the
traditional sintered bronze bushings. Before I give him the go ahead I'd
like to get any opinions on the use of this material for bushings on an
aircraft.
Thanks in advance!
Frank
N9110M
YAK-52
L71
http://www.tinyurl.com/4yx2z
Message 17
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| Subject: | Aluminum Bronze Bushings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Great post Dennis, many thanks.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Von
Ruden
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Aluminum Bronze Bushings
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dennis Von Ruden"
<dvonruden@generalequip.com>
Frank:
We have use thousands and thousands of oil impregnated bearings in
construction products of our manufacture for over 50 years. There are a
number of materials available. You might want to do an internet search
for some updated information. I have experience with the typical bronze
(including the Super Oilite materials) and iron materials. Both work
very well as long as the engineering guidelines are maintained. Since
this is not a new engineering design. It's not rocket scientist 101.
It's really John Deere A technology. It's probably safe to assume the
standard bronze material will deliver very good service life as long as
they are properly machined or sized and lubricated. That's the secret.
Sleeve type bearings normally have PV factors that must be maintained to
maximize wear. PV factors take into account rotational speeds and
applied loads. We "size" the bearings with special broaches during
installation. We don't ream. These types of bearings will also have a
closure rate that needs to be considered if they are not "sized".
Closure is similar to a spring constant. The bearing actually closes or
"shrinks" when it is pressed into a casting or similar mounting
assembly. The closure rate can be easily calculated from the materials
supplied by the bearing manufacturer.
The iron alloy material works equally well and has higher load
capacities. In theory, it should have a longer service life over the
bronze material with the same, applied loads. Again, the correct
machining process is critically important so the microscopic cells are
not closed, thus preventing the impregnated oil from wicking. If that
happens, all you have is a bronze or iron bushing (not a bearing) with
minimal lubrication and reduced load properties.
Sleeve type bearings should never be greased. Grease only closes the
microscopic cells and leads to accelerated wear. Shaft finish (RMS) is
also critical to maximize bearing service life. A rough shaft (I like to
specify 16 RMS or better) will only accelerate bearing wear.
I have no experience with the aluminum bronze material, but would guess
the load capacity is reduced over the bronze and iron materials. But,
then again, Briggs and Stratton built millions of engines that had no
special sleeve bearing material. Machining tolerances and a thin oil
film from a splash system mowed a lot of grass over the years. You can't
argue with success.
A good machinist will study the engineering literature before producing
the parts. Tool insert design, speed and feed along with allowed
tolerances are very important. Nothing spooky. This data is readily
available from any material supplier.
Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
dvonruden@generalequip.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Haertlein [mailto:yak52driver@earthlink.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Aluminum Bronze Bushings
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yakkers
Still no answer on my question about ALUMINUM BRONZE bushings so I'll
post again in hopes that someone will have an answer...........
PS Check out the link at the bottom of the post :)
On the advice of a local machinist, I'm considering installation of what
is known as "ALUMINUM BRONZE" bushings in all of the joints that make up
the shimmy damper on my 52. The machinist says that the new "ALUMINUM
BRONZE" material is much stronger and longer lasting than the
traditional sintered bronze bushings. Before I give him the go ahead I'd
like to get any opinions on the use of this material for bushings on an
aircraft.
Thanks in advance!
Frank
N9110M
YAK-52
L71
http://www.tinyurl.com/4yx2z
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