Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:56 AM - Re: CJ6 Tail slides (Lance Robb)
2. 03:00 AM - Re: CJ6 Tail slides (Lance Robb)
3. 05:02 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Jorgen Nielsen)
4. 05:16 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Jorgen Nielsen)
5. 05:36 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (A. Dennis Savarese)
6. 05:45 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Stephen Fox)
7. 05:53 AM - MMO (groan), Reno and etc. (cpayne@joimail.com)
8. 05:57 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (DaBear)
9. 06:00 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 07:15 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Jorgen Nielsen)
11. 07:20 AM - Re-using engine oil (Jorgen Nielsen)
12. 07:44 AM - Re: CJ6 Tail slides (Richard Basiliere)
13. 07:52 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Richard Basiliere)
14. 08:12 AM - CJ-52 wings ()
15. 08:20 AM - Re: CJ-52 wings (A. Dennis Savarese)
16. 08:27 AM - Yak 55M mystery stuff (Ron Spencer)
17. 08:42 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (John W. Cox)
18. 08:52 AM - Re: Yak 55M mystery stuff (Ernest Martinez)
19. 08:59 AM - Re: Re-using engine oil (Cliff Umscheid)
20. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: YAK-List: CJ6 Tail slides (Jim Selby)
21. 12:03 PM - Re: Yak 55M mystery stuff (Jorgen Nielsen)
22. 12:08 PM - Re: Re-using engine oil (Jorgen Nielsen)
23. 12:43 PM - Re: Re-using engine oil (Stephen Fox)
24. 12:54 PM - Marvel Mystery Oil - FOREVER (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
25. 12:56 PM - Re: Re-using engine oil (Stephen Fox)
26. 02:40 PM - Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
27. 02:46 PM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
28. 05:43 PM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (D Zeman)
29. 06:45 PM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again (Frank Haertlein)
30. 07:29 PM - Top End Lubrication (Frank Haertlein)
31. 08:04 PM - Re: Top End Lubrication (A. Dennis Savarese)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lance Robb" <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>
Hi Gus,
Thanks for the reply and the info and is there a better way to look at the
world but from upside down?? :))
Regards,
Lance
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Angus Fraser
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ6 Tail slides
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Angus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Lance,
G'day mate
I am a 52 pilot so I may be speaking out of school but there was some
discussion on the list from CJ flyers about cracks in a stringer in the tail
plane. Due to the excesive forces on the elevator during a tail slide I
would make sure that you have no issues there before trying them out. Apart
from that push stop pull or pull stop push.
As I say I am not speaking from any level of authority about CJs but that
conversation was over 12 months ago so you would have missed it.
Is it true that all flying in Australia is inverted ???? :)
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lance Robb
Subject: Yak-List: CJ6 Tail slides
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lance Robb" <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>
Hi Guys,
I'll introduce myself, I'm Lance Robb and I fly a CJ6 at the North
Queensland warbirds at Mareeba in Far North Queensland Australia. I have
been flying our CJ for a little over 12 Months now and find it a thrill to
fly. Since starting to fly aerobatics with it I have been steadily
increasing my number of aeros and am wanting to know if there is anyone out
there who has any comments on tail sliding the CJ6. I don't see there should
be a problem but our chief pilot has suggested I ask those who have probably
tried it first to get their feed back.
Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Lance
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 2
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lance Robb" <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>
Hmmmmm.......I was hoping to gain some useful input from some aviators who
might actually know the answers to my question rather than starting a brand
war......
Sigh.......It's so hard to find good reliable information these days.
Thanks to all who replied........
Regards,
Lance
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ6 Tail slides
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
--> <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
<In fact, my general advice is to sell the CJ and get a man's
airplane.....the YAK-52> Oh no! Here we go again! Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ6 Tail slides
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Lance
> As regards aerobatics with the CJ. I would counsel that the CJ is best
> described as a point A to point B airplane. It is well recognized that
> it is incapable of performing to an equivalent "combat type level" as
> you might expect with a YAK-52.
>
> If I owned a CJ, I would fly it as though my grandmother were in the
> back seat thus ensuring you never exceed the CJ's somewhat limited
> flight envelope. Tail slides are an advanced maneuver limited to the
> stronger airplanes, like the YAK-52, so you would be well advised to
> avoid such maneuvers. In fact, my general advice is to sell the CJ and
> get a man's airplane.....the YAK-52. This will allow you to explore
> the full flight spectrum with confidence. There are pilots and there
> are aviators. But most of all, there are those who really know how to
> push the envelope and explore the limits of their aircraft. It is
> unlikely you will experience either in the CJ.
>
> Frank
> N9110M
> YAK-52
> L71
> :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lance Robb
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: CJ6 Tail slides
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lance Robb" <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'll introduce myself, I'm Lance Robb and I fly a CJ6 at the North
> Queensland warbirds at Mareeba in Far North Queensland Australia. I
> have been flying our CJ for a little over 12 Months now and find it a
> thrill to fly. Since starting to fly aerobatics with it I have been
> steadily increasing my number of aeros and am wanting to know if there
> is anyone out there who has any comments on tail sliding the CJ6. I
> don't see there should be a problem but our chief pilot has suggested
> I ask those who have probably tried it first to get their feed back.
>
> Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lance
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
"> Research or no research, my suggestion is to take the
> opportunity to look inside one of the cylinders of an M14
> that has been using MMO in the fuel vs. one that hasn't and
> you will be astonished at how "clean" it looks."
But again Dennis, is this not actually bad? What does this actually
mean? How much of the lubricating qualities of the normal oil is lost,
by having such a powerful solvent that strips away normal combustion
deposits? How imprtant is it to have an engine that is shiny inside
anyway? I am not an engineer, so do not know the answers.
Espicially worry is the previous comment about using it when high power
is desired? How much of the engines longevity is shortened by such
practice? If an engine makes more power by using an oil additive then
one must assume the viscocity of the oil is being reduced, not the
lubrication qualities being enhanced - otherwise we are right back into
snake oil territory with PTFE etc. Think how great an engine would run
with say sewing machine oil - but it won't last long.
If you want to get rid of sludge is it not better to wash out the engine
& oil line with kerosene and make sure all traces are gone before
filling with clean oil?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Ron, with a name like Marvel Mystery Oil I would think the opposite!
Maybe it is a culture thing. Would you buy a 2nd hand car from someone
who calls himself "The Shadow"?.
I drive a BMW M3 and ride a Yamaha R1 - the M3 with superb handling &
overall performance is an example of the best German engineering, the R1
is an example of the best Japanese engineering. Both are superb, and
completely reliable, despite the very high power / displacement ratio.
Both are from manufacturers with major R&D budgets and both specifically
advise against any and all additives.
I have a hunch that if I put MMO in either of these vehicles' oil it
would not be long before pieces of valve, piston etc. would be flying
around out of the block.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> Jorgen,
>
> I agree that all mystery engine additives are snake oil.
> Except Marvel Mystery oil. It's ok with me if you disagree
> and don't use it. Have you heard of Chevron's Techron? I
> use it too. I used it before Chevron invented it. It is
> oridinary engine cleaning solvent (Stoddard Solvent) that
> mechanics buy by the 55 gallon drum. Maybe someday Chevron
> will discover MMO.
>
> Ron
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
My experience with the M14 has been that exhaust valves, particularly on the
upper cylinders, (9, 1, 2 and sometimes 3) have a propensity for lead
deposits causing exhaust valves to leak. Since using the MMO in the fuel,
the problem has been diminished significantly.
There is no magic here. I simply stated that I prefer to use it and will
continue to use it because in my opinion (no scientific data here) it has
benefited my engine and also the engines of those who use it.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
<jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
>
> "> Research or no research, my suggestion is to take the
> > opportunity to look inside one of the cylinders of an M14
> > that has been using MMO in the fuel vs. one that hasn't and
> > you will be astonished at how "clean" it looks."
>
> But again Dennis, is this not actually bad? What does this actually
> mean? How much of the lubricating qualities of the normal oil is lost,
> by having such a powerful solvent that strips away normal combustion
> deposits? How imprtant is it to have an engine that is shiny inside
> anyway? I am not an engineer, so do not know the answers.
>
> Espicially worry is the previous comment about using it when high power
> is desired? How much of the engines longevity is shortened by such
> practice? If an engine makes more power by using an oil additive then
> one must assume the viscocity of the oil is being reduced, not the
> lubrication qualities being enhanced - otherwise we are right back into
> snake oil territory with PTFE etc. Think how great an engine would run
> with say sewing machine oil - but it won't last long.
>
> If you want to get rid of sludge is it not better to wash out the engine
> & oil line with kerosene and make sure all traces are gone before
> filling with clean oil?
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
Ok, since I bought this subject back to the front burner let's see if I can
bring some closure to it. However, based on the variety of opinions from
about six or seven people I'm not sure this is a subject that will ever be
agreed on.
So let's do a totally unscientific poll.
1) Who on the list uses MMO and how? Oil, Gas or both.
2) Has used MMO, but no longer does so because of ill effects?
3) Has used it but no longer does from fear of ill effects?
4) Has never used MMO or any additives?
Steve Fox
ps Since my brother flies a CJ and I fly a Yak I am staying well away from
the tail slide discussion.
Message 7
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| Subject: | MMO (groan), Reno and etc. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Having family living in Reno is a real plus when attending
the races. Free housing at Mom's Inn, Military Courtesy
passes to the event from Little Brother, plus all the eats
and free beer I can mooch.
Having spotted MMO in the pits some years back I reported it
on the 'list. At the last race I investigated a bit more.
MMO is mainly used as an engine assembly aid, some of the
best stuff around for this purpose I'm told. As for regular
use, I found both Nay-sayers and True Believers at the
races, just like here on the 'list.
Speaking of Reno, I love watching the Big Iron fly but my
real heros are the guys with the little airplanes. The
Formulas and Bipes compete with real intensity but everybody
is family when the race is over. Most of the "speed secrets"
I use, I learned from these guys. They really do experiment
and innovate. Duct tape, metal tape, foam and paint are used
to make temporary fairings. All sorts of drag reduction,
both outside and under the cowl.
OTOH, I had hoped that the new Sport Class would be the same
way. Folks who would fly out, tape on some numbers, polish
out the bugs, add MMO, race and then party with each other
afterwards. Not so, big money and sponsors invaded the sport
big time in '04. Oh well, at least the T-6 guys haven't sold
out yet.
Craig Payne
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
See below....
Stephen Fox wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
>
>Ok, since I bought this subject back to the front burner let's see if I can
>bring some closure to it. However, based on the variety of opinions from
>about six or seven people I'm not sure this is a subject that will ever be
>agreed on.
>
>So let's do a totally unscientific poll.
>
>1) Who on the list uses MMO and how? Oil, Gas or both.
>
>
>
I don't use it.
>2) Has used MMO, but no longer does so because of ill effects?
>
>
>
N/A
>3) Has used it but no longer does from fear of ill effects?
>
>
>
N/A
>4) Has never used MMO or any additives?
>
>
Me.
>Steve Fox
>
>ps Since my brother flies a CJ and I fly a Yak I am staying well away from
>the tail slide discussion.
>
>
I've flown and owned all three airplanes. (Yak-52, CJ6A, and the
Yak-Chang (CJ6A with M14P/MT-Prop). All three are Great airplanes and
I'm happy that I've flown/owned them.
DaBear
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
Have you ever had a fuel injector stick in one of your automobiles? People
who have experienced this probem typically go to their local auto supply
store and purchase one of the over-the-counter fuel injector cleaners and
pour it into the fuel tank. If one were to use MMO in lieu of a fuel
injector cleaner, one would find that it works just as well and in many
cases even better. I have and it worked extremely well.
Rather than me continuing the debate since I do not have any scientific
proof of the benefits of MMO, except for my personal experience, I'll
conclude by saying once again, I will continue to use the stuff and for
those that choose not to use MMO, no problem. That's the benefit of being
able to make these kind of choices concerning our airplanes.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
<jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
>
> Ron, with a name like Marvel Mystery Oil I would think the opposite!
> Maybe it is a culture thing. Would you buy a 2nd hand car from someone
> who calls himself "The Shadow"?.
>
> I drive a BMW M3 and ride a Yamaha R1 - the M3 with superb handling &
> overall performance is an example of the best German engineering, the R1
> is an example of the best Japanese engineering. Both are superb, and
> completely reliable, despite the very high power / displacement ratio.
> Both are from manufacturers with major R&D budgets and both specifically
> advise against any and all additives.
>
> I have a hunch that if I put MMO in either of these vehicles' oil it
> would not be long before pieces of valve, piston etc. would be flying
> around out of the block.
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Jorgen,
> >
> > I agree that all mystery engine additives are snake oil.
> > Except Marvel Mystery oil. It's ok with me if you disagree
> > and don't use it. Have you heard of Chevron's Techron? I
> > use it too. I used it before Chevron invented it. It is
> > oridinary engine cleaning solvent (Stoddard Solvent) that
> > mechanics buy by the 55 gallon drum. Maybe someday Chevron
> > will discover MMO.
> >
> > Ron
> >
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
And I will now shut up with questions & debate.
Jorgen
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re-using engine oil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
All the debate around oil & additives leads me to another question:
Could one re-use engine oil that drips out? We have a fancy drop tray
that is wheeled under the exhaust & drain valve, any oil that drips
(pours) out goes in the tray and into a container. This is becoming a
problem to dispose of in an environmentally friendly way.
Logically I can think of no reason why I should not put the oil through
a filter, and chuck it back into the engine. It will save money too.
Is there any reason why I should not do this?
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: CJ6 Tail slides |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
As I learned when I had my 52: The Yak-52 will accomplish "all figures
printed in the Arresti catalogue". Wheels up and wheels down tailslides
are published in Arresti along with all the appurtenant rolls both up
and down. Anecdotally, the Russian (Ukraine) instructors I've used have
no problem with tailslides initiated from either upright or inverted
flight. My baby (former) NX52CG has lots of experience including 3
different tumbles - if she could only talk...
Respectfully, Rick B
>>> curious_wings@yahoo.com 2/3/2005 10:45:06 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: D Zeman <curious_wings@yahoo.com>
It was my understanding that this was prohibited in
the 52 as well. Does anyone have further info?
Zeman
__________________________________
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
I am nearing 1000 hours on M14P (@100%+) SU-29. I have used MMO very
sporadically - probably because +9.5 and -6 limits my ability to focus
:0) Phillips 25w-60 all the time
Rick B
>>> jsfox@adelphia.net 2/4/2005 6:45:23 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
Ok, since I bought this subject back to the front burner let's see if I
can
bring some closure to it. However, based on the variety of opinions
from
about six or seven people I'm not sure this is a subject that will ever
be
agreed on.
So let's do a totally unscientific poll.
1) Who on the list uses MMO and how? Oil, Gas or both.
2) Has used MMO, but no longer does so because of ill effects?
3) Has used it but no longer does from fear of ill effects?
4) Has never used MMO or any additives?
Steve Fox
ps Since my brother flies a CJ and I fly a Yak I am staying well away
from
the tail slide discussion.
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: <eyeballs@cox.net>
I was comparing the relative 'beefiness' of the CJ and 52 structure. i. e. The
wing spar size in the carrythrough in the fuselage. The number and size of the
wing ribs.
They are not as different as the difference in the tail structure.
Eyeballs
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
OK.
----- Original Message -----
From: <eyeballs@cox.net>
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-52 wings
> --> Yak-List message posted by: <eyeballs@cox.net>
>
> I was comparing the relative 'beefiness' of the CJ and 52 structure. i.
e. The wing spar size in the carrythrough in the fuselage. The number and
size of the wing ribs.
>
> They are not as different as the difference in the tail structure.
>
> Eyeballs
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Yak 55M mystery stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Spencer" <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
Attention...calling all Russian Pilots or detectives!
I bought a Yak 55M recently and after acquiring it, (over the next few
weeks), the normal load of extra stuff (that seems to define the Russian
aircraft purchasing experience) began to show up at my door! One of the
more fun things to do was to try and determine exactly what had arrived, and
how it was/is /should be used. It has been a very intriquing process to say
the least.
About 90% of the stuff I have figured out...I need some clues and help on
the remaining...
I received a bunch of "bungees". They have a metal grey slotted clip on
both ends, however, on one end it is attached to the clip is a long beige
strip of cloth - somewhat similar to a remove before flight banner. They
come in varying sizes and there are a lot of them!
Help! Can anybody tell me what they are and how they should be used?
Thanks, -rs-
Message 17
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Here is an idea, for the few who do oil analysis and throw away maroon
plastic bottles. Run your baseline oil for two cycles Sans MMO, get the two
printed reports then switch back to putting in the max recommended MMO in
both the oil and gas. Send me the last bill for analysis #3 and
reimbursement. I will pay for the first guy who does it and post the
results for everyone to have written documentation on the YAK list.
Offer even valid for +9.5 or -6 Gs.
Inquiring minds want to know. Viscosity change, Flashpoint change, Critical
metal report.
What do you guys think? I will even do a CJ report and a YAK report as if
the results are different with the same Powerplant.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Basiliere
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere"
<BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
I am nearing 1000 hours on M14P (@100%+) SU-29. I have used MMO very
sporadically - probably because +9.5 and -6 limits my ability to focus
:0) Phillips 25w-60 all the time
Rick B
>>> jsfox@adelphia.net 2/4/2005 6:45:23 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
Ok, since I bought this subject back to the front burner let's see if I
can
bring some closure to it. However, based on the variety of opinions
from
about six or seven people I'm not sure this is a subject that will ever
be
agreed on.
So let's do a totally unscientific poll.
1) Who on the list uses MMO and how? Oil, Gas or both.
2) Has used MMO, but no longer does so because of ill effects?
3) Has used it but no longer does from fear of ill effects?
4) Has never used MMO or any additives?
Steve Fox
ps Since my brother flies a CJ and I fly a Yak I am staying well away
from
the tail slide discussion.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 55M mystery stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
The bungies are training devices to prevent one from opening their
mouth wide during high G manuvers. The way it works is you clip one
end of the bungee to the seat pan between your legs, the cloth strip
is held in the mouth by clenching with your teeth.
The different lenghts are for pilots of different torso lengths. You
must stretch the bungee approximately 1.5 feet (or 37.5 ft/lbs) in
order to hold it in your teeth.
Now if you improperly open your mouth during your straining manuver,
the bungee will release and hit you right in the balls!.
Ernie
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:26:16 -0500, Ron Spencer
<splitimage.wing@verizon.net> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Spencer" <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
>
> Attention...calling all Russian Pilots or detectives!
>
> I bought a Yak 55M recently and after acquiring it, (over the next few
> weeks), the normal load of extra stuff (that seems to define the Russian
> aircraft purchasing experience) began to show up at my door! One of the
> more fun things to do was to try and determine exactly what had arrived, and
> how it was/is /should be used. It has been a very intriquing process to say
> the least.
>
> About 90% of the stuff I have figured out...I need some clues and help on
> the remaining...
>
> I received a bunch of "bungees". They have a metal grey slotted clip on
> both ends, however, on one end it is attached to the clip is a long beige
> strip of cloth - somewhat similar to a remove before flight banner. They
> come in varying sizes and there are a lot of them!
>
> Help! Can anybody tell me what they are and how they should be used?
>
> Thanks, -rs-
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Re-using engine oil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
Jorgen, I offer the suggestion that one should forego the temptation to
re-use the oil that drips from the exhaust stacks. Think of all the
carbon deposits inside the stack. The oil has just washed some of that
pumice-like material into the catch can. I question whether one can
adequately filter this abraisive completely from the recycled oil. If you
think you can filter the contaminants out and you want to save money on
oil replacement, then why not just drain the oil in the usual manner into
a clean bucket, filter it several times, let it stand for 2 weeks in a
covered bucket and then pour off the top four fifths and re-use in the
engine. If you think letting it stand for two weeks is useless, take a
look at the bottom of the white bucket and note the sediment that has
settled to the bottom. This is what you missed when you filtered the
first four times.
For what it's worth, this practice has been around for 60 or 70 years
and has been used by farmers since WW2 and before ,to clean their tractor
oil which must be changed often because of dusty working environment.
Farmers are by necessity, penurious and ingenious, they are forced to be
inovative and self-helping. Having spent some of my life on a farm I
learned the techniques and methods which make the difference between
financial success, survival and business failure. Asset preservation is a
transferable capability.
Respectfully submitted with Best Wishes,
Cliff Umscheid, YAK 50
Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:14:20 +0200 "Jorgen Nielsen"
<jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za> writes:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
> <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
>
> All the debate around oil & additives leads me to another question:
>
> Could one re-use engine oil that drips out? We have a fancy drop
> tray
> that is wheeled under the exhaust & drain valve, any oil that drips
> (pours) out goes in the tray and into a container. This is becoming
> a
> problem to dispose of in an environmentally friendly way.
>
> Logically I can think of no reason why I should not put the oil
> through
> a filter, and chuck it back into the engine. It will save money
> too.
> Is there any reason why I should not do this?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: YAK-List: CJ6 Tail slides |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Selby" <alikatz@mbay.net>
Well put Frank.. ; ))))
Jr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK-List: CJ6 Tail slides
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>
> I guess that since the Yak is suppose to be better than a CJ that must be
the reason that so many of them are for sale in TAP. It is getting so bad
that they even have a Yak section but no Nanchang section.
> To each his own I guess.
>
> Frank CJ6-A N23021
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Yak 55M mystery stuff |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Soumds like the straps for the wing / fuselage covers. I have all the
original support equipment including winter / summer engine covers, wing
covers, canopy cover, tyre covers (yes!) etc. Most attach using a strap
with the bungee cord and clip. There is sometimes a metal adjustment
tab at the non-bungee end for adjusting the length. Also a cloth cover
to prevent the metal clip from scratching.
I preferred Ernie's answer!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Spencer
> Sent: 04 February 2005 18:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Yak 55M mystery stuff
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Spencer"
> --> <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
>
> Attention...calling all Russian Pilots or detectives!
>
> I bought a Yak 55M recently and after acquiring it, (over the
> next few
> weeks), the normal load of extra stuff (that seems to define
> the Russian
> aircraft purchasing experience) began to show up at my door!
> One of the
> more fun things to do was to try and determine exactly what
> had arrived, and
> how it was/is /should be used. It has been a very intriquing
> process to say
> the least.
>
> About 90% of the stuff I have figured out...I need some clues
> and help on
> the remaining...
>
> I received a bunch of "bungees". They have a metal grey
> slotted clip on
> both ends, however, on one end it is attached to the clip is
> a long beige
> strip of cloth - somewhat similar to a remove before flight
> banner. They
> come in varying sizes and there are a lot of them!
>
> Help! Can anybody tell me what they are and how they should be used?
>
> Thanks, -rs-
>
>
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re-using engine oil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Thanks Cliff - never thought of it that way. I have never tried to
re-use the oil, but since getting our clever oil catching device, we
tidily dispose of it into a bigger container, now wonder where to chuck
it away.
For interest, I will have a go, and see how much sediment collects after
filtration.
Hey, I can always chuck it into my tractor!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Cliff Umscheid
> Sent: 04 February 2005 18:58 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re-using engine oil
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
>
> Jorgen, I offer the suggestion that one should forego the
> temptation to re-use the oil that drips from the exhaust
> stacks. Think of all the carbon deposits inside the stack.
> The oil has just washed some of that pumice-like material
> into the catch can. I question whether one can adequately
> filter this abraisive completely from the recycled oil. If
> you think you can filter the contaminants out and you want to
> save money on oil replacement, then why not just drain the
> oil in the usual manner into a clean bucket, filter it
> several times, let it stand for 2 weeks in a covered bucket
> and then pour off the top four fifths and re-use in the
> engine. If you think letting it stand for two weeks is
> useless, take a look at the bottom of the white bucket and
> note the sediment that has settled to the bottom. This is
> what you missed when you filtered the first four times.
> For what it's worth, this practice has been around for 60
> or 70 years and has been used by farmers since WW2 and before
> ,to clean their tractor oil which must be changed often
> because of dusty working environment. Farmers are by
> necessity, penurious and ingenious, they are forced to be
> inovative and self-helping. Having spent some of my life on a
> farm I learned the techniques and methods which make the
> difference between financial success, survival and business
> failure. Asset preservation is a transferable capability.
>
> Respectfully submitted with Best Wishes,
>
> Cliff Umscheid, YAK 50
>
>
> Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:14:20 +0200 "Jorgen Nielsen"
> <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za> writes:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
> > <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
> >
> > All the debate around oil & additives leads me to another question:
> >
> > Could one re-use engine oil that drips out? We have a fancy drop
> > tray
> > that is wheeled under the exhaust & drain valve, any oil that drips
> > (pours) out goes in the tray and into a container. This is
> becoming
> > a
> > problem to dispose of in an environmentally friendly way.
> >
> > Logically I can think of no reason why I should not put the oil
> > through
> > a filter, and chuck it back into the engine. It will save money
> > too.
> > Is there any reason why I should not do this?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Re-using engine oil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
On 2/4/05 3:01 PM, "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Thanks Cliff - never thought of it that way. I have never tried to
> re-use the oil, but since getting our clever oil catching device, we
> tidily dispose of it into a bigger container, now wonder where to chuck
> it away.
>
> For interest, I will have a go, and see how much sediment collects after
> filtration.
Jorgen -
Here in the state there are folks who will come take your oil for recycling.
Here in New Hampshire we just take it to our town recycling center and it
gets recycled from there. Possibly there is someone close by that will do
the same in South Africa.
Steve Fox
Message 24
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - FOREVER |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Hi Jorgen! Hope everything is going well with you!
I have run MMO quite often in my:
Yak-50, which we've already talked about.
1982 Yamaha XS-1100, with 58,000 very hard miles, a lot at or above redline.
1968 ProStreet Camaro, 640 HP 502 Cu.in. Big Block, turning 10.8 seconds at
138 mph in the 1/4 mile.
Stihl Chainsaw
(Ex) Wifes Mazda RX-7 running a rotary engine.
None have yet had pieces of valve, piston, rod, etc., "flying out of the
block".
Maybe the owners should change the name though, to... hmmm... maybe
something like: "WD-41"? :-)
Take care,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jorgen Nielsen [mailto:jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za]
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Ron, with a name like Marvel Mystery Oil I would think the opposite!
Maybe it is a culture thing. Would you buy a 2nd hand car from someone
who calls himself "The Shadow"?.
I drive a BMW M3 and ride a Yamaha R1 - the M3 with superb handling &
overall performance is an example of the best German engineering, the R1
is an example of the best Japanese engineering. Both are superb, and
completely reliable, despite the very high power / displacement ratio.
Both are from manufacturers with major R&D budgets and both specifically
advise against any and all additives.
I have a hunch that if I put MMO in either of these vehicles' oil it
would not be long before pieces of valve, piston etc. would be flying
around out of the block.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> Jorgen,
>
> I agree that all mystery engine additives are snake oil.
> Except Marvel Mystery oil. It's ok with me if you disagree
> and don't use it. Have you heard of Chevron's Techron? I
> use it too. I used it before Chevron invented it. It is
> oridinary engine cleaning solvent (Stoddard Solvent) that
> mechanics buy by the 55 gallon drum. Maybe someday Chevron
> will discover MMO.
>
> Ron
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Re-using engine oil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
A little follow-up here's some info on oil recycling in South Africa:
"TREASURE-TROVE
Right under your nose at your factory, mine, quarry, workshop, in fact
wherever there is working machinery, you will find you've got some used oil.
You've got some hidden treasure at your business. The Rose Foundation can
arrange for your used oil to be collected, and our collector Oilkol will pay
you for your oil. In fact to make your treasure-trove even easier to manage,
we can deliver and install an easy to use 1000 or 2000 litre mini-tank. Why
not go and check how much new oil you buy at your business and how much used
oil you drain. Do the numbers tally? Can you account for all your used oil
in your business? If not, you need to contact us at Tel: 021-4487492 and
e-mail: usedoil@iafrica.com"
On 2/4/05 3:01 PM, "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
>
> Thanks Cliff - never thought of it that way. I have never tried to
> re-use the oil, but since getting our clever oil catching device, we
> tidily dispose of it into a bigger container, now wonder where to chuck
> it away.
>
> For interest, I will have a go, and see how much sediment collects after
> filtration.
>
> Hey, I can always chuck it into my tractor!
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Cliff Umscheid
>> Sent: 04 February 2005 18:58 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re-using engine oil
>>
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
>>
>> Jorgen, I offer the suggestion that one should forego the
>> temptation to re-use the oil that drips from the exhaust
>> stacks. Think of all the carbon deposits inside the stack.
>> The oil has just washed some of that pumice-like material
>> into the catch can. I question whether one can adequately
>> filter this abraisive completely from the recycled oil. If
>> you think you can filter the contaminants out and you want to
>> save money on oil replacement, then why not just drain the
>> oil in the usual manner into a clean bucket, filter it
>> several times, let it stand for 2 weeks in a covered bucket
>> and then pour off the top four fifths and re-use in the
>> engine. If you think letting it stand for two weeks is
>> useless, take a look at the bottom of the white bucket and
>> note the sediment that has settled to the bottom. This is
>> what you missed when you filtered the first four times.
>> For what it's worth, this practice has been around for 60
>> or 70 years and has been used by farmers since WW2 and before
>> ,to clean their tractor oil which must be changed often
>> because of dusty working environment. Farmers are by
>> necessity, penurious and ingenious, they are forced to be
>> inovative and self-helping. Having spent some of my life on a
>> farm I learned the techniques and methods which make the
>> difference between financial success, survival and business
>> failure. Asset preservation is a transferable capability.
>>
>> Respectfully submitted with Best Wishes,
>>
>> Cliff Umscheid, YAK 50
>>
>>
>> Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:14:20 +0200 "Jorgen Nielsen"
>> <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za> writes:
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
>>> <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
>>>
>>> All the debate around oil & additives leads me to another question:
>>>
>>> Could one re-use engine oil that drips out? We have a fancy drop
>>> tray
>>> that is wheeled under the exhaust & drain valve, any oil that drips
>>> (pours) out goes in the tray and into a container. This is
>> becoming
>>> a
>>> problem to dispose of in an environmentally friendly way.
>>>
>>> Logically I can think of no reason why I should not put the oil
>>> through
>>> a filter, and chuck it back into the engine. It will save money
>>> too.
>>> Is there any reason why I should not do this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> =========
>> Matronics Forums.
>> =========
>> =========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Steve,
I have to make a few comments to what you have written here. First, I am
not trying to change your mind. If you are convinced of ANYTHING, then that
is fine by me... I mean, seriously, everyone is entitled to their own
opinion!
That said, some comments on lead in fuel. You said: "The lead in the fuel
is there for a reason, why wash it all
away?"
On engines designed to run with lead in the fuel, having too much lead
content can be just as bad as having too little. When the lead enters the
engine and is ignited in the combustion chamber, it turns into a gas. As
well as a knock inhibiter, this gas acts as a coolant and lubricant to the
exhaust valve. In an air cooled engine, the exhaust gas temperature remains
much higher for a longer period of time, compared to say, a typical
automobile water cooled engine.
If 100 Low Lead fuel is run in an older model high performance small block
engine... say a Chevy 327 with iron heads and a strong street camshaft, the
result will be a large amount of accumulated lead on the face of the exhaust
valve itself. As this deposit builds over time, it will result in
pre-ignition and possibly even cylinder detonation burn, the latter being
quite catastrophic to the life of the engine. This happens because with the
water cooled head, the gaseous Tetraethyllead rushing past the cooler
exhaust valve causes it to come out of suspension and precipitate on the
valve itself. The same thing happens in aircraft engines, but HOPEFULLY
with most of it falling out in the exhaust stack NOT on the exhaust VALVE...
which is why those same stacks have that gray dust coming out of them that
you can wipe off with your finger... that's the lead. (Not healthy to mess
with by the way)
The problem happens when the lead falls out of suspension too soon, as what
I described with the small block Chevy running aviation fuel. The same
thing can happen in an aircraft engine. In the M-14, this usually results in
the exhaust valves not fully closing (jammed up with lead), thus loosing
compression, thus loosing power. In addition, once an exhaust valve fails
to close completely, that means that during the power stroke of the 4 cycle
engine, hot burning engine gases that are supposed to be fully contained in
the cylinder are going to LEAK through that partially opened exhaust valve,
and will cause it to ERODE/SCORE very quickly, resulting in both valve and
valve seat damage, that may, or may not be repairable by a simple valve
regrind. The longer it occurs, the less likely it can be repaired...
obviously.
Thus, anything that can help keep the lead from attaching or adhering to the
exhaust valve, or precipitating out too early, is beneficial in it's own
right. So is avoiding all situations where too MUCH lead is used in the
fuel. For example, aviation engine that were designed to use the old Grade
80/87 fuel, now are being forced to run 100 Low Lead fuel, which has
approximately FOUR TIMES the amount of Tetraethyllead in it than the old
Grade 80 did. This is one of the primary reasons for the FAA granting STC's
to allow the use of automobile fuel in certain aircraft engines.
The M-14P engine was designed to run on a minimum of... I believe the actual
figure is 93 (?) octane fuel. I might be off a point or so, but that number
rings as being pretty close. I do not have an actual number of the lead
content of Russian aviation fuel of the grade normally burned in the M-14,
but I suspect it to be a lower number than the .56 g/liter that we find in
our 100 Low Lead fuel. This would help to explain the commonly known
problem of lead precip on the exhaust valves of cylinders 9/1/2 on the M-14.
Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel has shown to me to VISIBLY reduce lead
precipitation on spark plugs and on the seats of the exhaust valve. My
proof is not engineering double blind test positive, it is just a case of
not running it, and experiencing heavy leading... and then running it, and
seeing very little leading. The lead is not being "washed away", it is
simply being kept in suspension for a longer period of time.
The article you refer to mainly questions the use of PTFE as an engine
additive. I agree with their postulations in that regard. It refers to MMO
as a solvent. I agree with that definition too. It does not specifically
find anything wrong with MMO, at least the way I read it.
The use of MMO as an oil additive, and why... have already been discussed.
Summation is simply that it's solvent qualities are different from the
disastrous types found in automobile oils when used in M-14 radials.
As to why we change our oil. Oil filtering in our radials is pretty much
non-existent unless an after-market kit has been installed. An oil screen
is nowhere nearly effective enough to stop the circulation of accumulated
deposits in engine oil. When you consider the tolerances and clearances in
main engine bearings, oil screens are to deposits as an open window is to
stopping mosquitoes from entering. Engine oil should be changed hot.. if
possible. The idea is to get all the deposits circulating in suspension and
not just drain the oil with the deposits already laying in the bottom of
some part of the engine. Changing the oil removes SOME of the crap that is
suspended in the oil itself... sadly not all, but a lot! Proof... drain
your oil, put it into a large glass container and let it sit. Inspect it.
You'll be amazed at what falls out and collects on the bottom. Even with
oil changes, you will sooner or later have to pull your oil cooler and have
it cleaned.... because of lot of that junk comes out of suspension in the
oil cooler.
Adding MMO to the oil before the change helps to break loose and put into
suspension all manner of sludge that has accumulated since the last oil
change. That is why I add it, run the engine hard for an hour, and then
DRAIN it immediately.
If I were to question anything.. it would be to suddenly START using MMO in
the oil after a long engine life time of IRREGULAR oil changes and LONG
build up times for sludge. In situations like that, using kerosene and
running it through the engine might be a good thing, but even that remains
questionable. Why? Because now you have so much ... well... CRAP... built
up inside the engine that you have to worry about getting it all out, and
not just breaking it all LOOSE, where it can then jam up some critical oil
passage and then... bye bye main bearing. Keeping an engine clean is just a
good thing. MMO in my opinion helps to do this.
Best Regards,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven A Johnson [mailto:sajdds@comcast.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steven A Johnson" <sajdds@comcast.net>
Stephen
I am reluctant to disagree with the experts who regularly contribute to
this list but my research has convinced me that MMO is not only a waste
of money but is detrimental. I suggest you read "Snake Oil" which can be
found at http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-additives.html . This article
covers just about all the points although similar views are common and
expressed elsewhere. You already use good oil with carefully balanced
detergent additives to prevent buildup while not diminishing lubricating
properties. The lead in the fuel is there for a reason, why wash it all
away. The way I see it the only possible benefit of using MMO is a
slight increase in performance at the expense of increased wear. I would
rather minimize the wear and I can increase the performance by moving
the throttle forward.
I hate to commit another blasphemy or appear stupid but I have a
question for the group. Why do we change our oil? The system holds 8-12
quarts. I loose 1 quart per hour. After I have flown 25 or 30 hours I
have added 25 to 30 quarts of new oil. The oil is constantly being mixed
so it is not that I am draining slug out of the bottom. I figure my oil
is never more than about 12 hours old. I can see checking or cleaning
the screens but why drain and discard perfectly good oil. It does not
make sense to me. Any comments?
Steve
N9900X
Message 27
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Gus, I have the English version of the manual that describes how to adjust
it, and the barostat. It actually calls for the barostat to be checked
every couple of hundred hours! Oops... I have not done that either!
But... I have this hard learned lesson that keeps coming to mind...
"If it works, don't fix it".
My engine runs so sweet... so smoothly, so perfectly....
I just am not going to mess with it. Call me overly-cautious.... I guess
that's true.
Thanks Gus,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: Angus Fraser [mailto:fraseg@comcast.net]
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Angus Fraser" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Good question, messing with the carb is not to be attempted by the faint of
heart. I think it is right up there with the air start system, well not
maybe that bad but. Adjusting the idle is one thing but the mixture is
another. Basically the theory is this, there is a diaphram in the carb that
moves the needle valve as the aircraft goes up and down to account for air
pressure. On the carb there is an adjustment for the needle if you have the
diagram from the manual it is clearly identified. I have the adjustment
procedure from the manual in English if you ned it but it sounds easier that
I am sure it is. Just for the record I have not done it I always defer that
one to someone better qualified.
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bitterlich GS11
Mark G
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
That's a good deduction and a reasonable assumption Gus, but let me say
this:
My Yak-50 has no cowl shutters/gills. All of them were removed by some
previous owner... probably when it used to belong to Les Crowder down in
Texas, since it has his rather huge spinner on it, along with some other
mods, most of which I love by the way. However, without the gills, it's
pretty much a no-brainer that the cylinder head temps are going to run cool,
especially in the winter, thus the lead is going to try and fall out of
suspension worse than with other engines that run higher CHT's/EGT's. The
worst lead fouling that I have had seems to always be in cylinders 9,1 and
2. These top three lose compression faster than any of the others, and I
have seen that to be true now on three M-14's. Two of them P models and one
of them a PF. Cylinder #2, seems to always be the worst of the three... and
I have NO IDEA why. Compression losses seem to be caused mostly by failure
of the exhaust valve to fully seat due to lead deposits. With the addition
of MMO, I have seen visual reductions in the amount of lead in the plugs (I
run Russian plugs).
It is my understanding and belief (open to anyone's correction please!) that
the amount of lead in our "100 Low Lead" fuel is in fact far more than that
contained in Russian 93-100 octane fuel and that the term "low lead" is
actually an oxymoron in regard to the blue stuff we all have been using.
Adding more gas to the fire (pun intended), I would like to open the
Pandora's Box on fuel and hear others opinions on running AUTOMOBILE FUEL...
92 octane or higher... either pure, or mixed with 100 LL. I have one gent
who claims he ran it in a YAK-52 for tons of hours and had no problem. I've
run it a few times, and it seemed to run just fine, but I never made a habit
of it.
But Gus, back to the "am I running too rich?" question. I really do not
know for sure, to be quite honest. However, I would THINK that if I were
running THAT RICH, thus causing low CHT's, lead fouling of plugs and exhaust
valves, etc., that I would also be running so rich that I would have washed
the rings out by now.
But.. it is a point worth looking into. The engine runs just absolutely
perfect. How would you suggest I check it vis-=E0-vis your comment?
Best Regards,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Gus Fraser [mailto:fraseg@comcast.net]
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gus Fraser <fraseg@comcast.net>
Mark have you considered that the two may be related. The reason that you
have fouling and low cht may be that you are running rich.
Gus
...... Original Message .......
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:48:34 -0500 Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil> wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
<BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
>Dennis's values are accurate... just adding my 1 cent.
>
>Just in case you ever worry about putting too MUCH in: I have used twice
>that amount in the fuel for the last 250 hours with no ill results that I
>can see. I.E., I use about 1/2 quart for every 28 gallons or so, which is
>way over the recommended dosage. I had rather serious lead fouling on
>cylinders 9,1 & 2, mainly because the cyl. head temps. are way too cool on
>my engine ... "why" is another discussion. Suffice it to say that running
>this high an amount of MMO 'seems' to have cut my lead fouling problems
down
>significantly. This belief has also been supported by inspection of the
>spark plugs which now have little to NO lead fouling in two years of
>operation. So if you slip.. and slurp in a little too much... it's no big
>deal.
>
>I put one quart in with every oil change, as Dennis recommends, and when I
>get close to around 20 hours, I put another two quarts in for one flight...
>and then drain and change the oil.
>
>Mark
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:DSAVARESE@elmore.rr.com]
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
>
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
><DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
>
>Add to oil. 1 qt per oil change
>Add to gas. 6 oz. per 15 gallons. Be religious about using it too.
>Interpolate what is needed for each tank each time you fuel up.
>Available at most Wal-Mart's for $9.84 per gallon. Least expensive place
to
>buy it.
>Dennis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stephen Fox" <jsfox@adelphia.net>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
>>
>> Ok I know this subject has probably been covered to death, but as a new
>Yak
>> 52 owner who just finished up transition and who joined the list at the
>very
>> tail end of the last discussion about MMO. HereB9s the question add to
>oil,
>> add to gas or add to both and in what quantities.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Steve Fox
>>
>>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: D Zeman <curious_wings@yahoo.com>
If excess lead (using 100LL) is the reason to add MMO
to fuel wouldn't Alcor's TCP be the answer?
http://www.alcorinc.com/DOCS/1/tcp.html
Any thoughts on this product?
Zeman
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 29
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil - again |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Jorgen
BMW and Yamaha might recommend against oil additives to crankcase oil
but they make no mention of adding oil to your gasoline....... other
than to say it may harm your catalytic converter. Two stroke engines
live on a blend of oil and gasoline that approaches ratios as high as
100:1 Two stroke engine life can be extended considerably if you use a
premium quality oil at lower ratios....say 20:1 or thereabouts. Not only
are the rings and pistons lubricated with this oil but the rod and main
bearings as well. Oil in a two stroke engine exists as a mist of oil and
gasoline yet it has enough lubrication properties to allow the two
stroke engine to survive for quite some time.
If a four stroke engine can live thousands of hours without any top end
lubrication and a two stroke can live hundreds of hours with only oil in
the gas then doesn't it make sense that there is some benefit to running
oil in the gas to lubricate the cylinders on a four stroke engine?
Bottom line is that I think there is no harm whatsoever to running oil
in your gas to lubricate the top end.....unless you consider the
environmental damage from burning oil. (That's why you don't see newly
manufactured two stroke cars or motorcycles anymore). I think running a
top end lubricant added to the gas is a beneficial practice. The Reno
race pukes can be all wrong! Wouldn't you want to protect a
multi-million dollar airplane as best you could?
Frank
N9110M
YAK-52
L71
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jorgen Nielsen
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
--> <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Ron, with a name like Marvel Mystery Oil I would think the opposite!
Maybe it is a culture thing. Would you buy a 2nd hand car from someone
who calls himself "The Shadow"?.
I drive a BMW M3 and ride a Yamaha R1 - the M3 with superb handling &
overall performance is an example of the best German engineering, the R1
is an example of the best Japanese engineering. Both are superb, and
completely reliable, despite the very high power / displacement ratio.
Both are from manufacturers with major R&D budgets and both specifically
advise against any and all additives.
I have a hunch that if I put MMO in either of these vehicles' oil it
would not be long before pieces of valve, piston etc. would be flying
around out of the block.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> Jorgen,
>
> I agree that all mystery engine additives are snake oil.
> Except Marvel Mystery oil. It's ok with me if you disagree
> and don't use it. Have you heard of Chevron's Techron? I
> use it too. I used it before Chevron invented it. It is
> oridinary engine cleaning solvent (Stoddard Solvent) that
> mechanics buy by the 55 gallon drum. Maybe someday Chevron
> will discover MMO.
>
> Ron
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Top End Lubrication |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Dennis;
When a scientist comes up with an idea, like oil added to gas, he can
have all the scientific theory on his side. But until he actually tries
to use the product, until he actually puts it into use, he really has no
idea if it will work as intended. I don't care what field of practice
you come from, I don't care what new idea you have, until you actually
put that product into use you can't be certain how it will work. That is
where empirical evidence reigns the day.
Empirical evidence is derived from actual practice in using a product.
It's not based on scientific theory (that's why scientists still have to
test nuclear bombs despite all the computer simulations and scientific
theory....they need to see if the things actually work!). Empirical
evidence doesn't lie or bamboozle you with bull. It either works or it
don't.
No matter how smart you are, no matter how well you have considered an
idea, it is only an idea until it has been proven in actual use. So then
I ask, why do Reno racers with multi-million dollar airplanes use a top
end lubricant like MMO? Do you think that maybe empirical evidence (they
have actually used the product and seen what is does) has taught them
something?
Marvels Mystery Oil is used as a solvent in crankcase oil to help clean
things and, most appropriately, as a top end lubricant. Empirical
evidence from many, many people bears that out.
My guess is there are other top end lubricating oils that could perform
the same function as MMO. I don't think MMO has an exclusive here.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the quality two stroke
oils as a start.
Frank
N9110M
YAK-52
L71
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
--> <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
My experience with the M14 has been that exhaust valves, particularly on
the upper cylinders, (9, 1, 2 and sometimes 3) have a propensity for
lead deposits causing exhaust valves to leak. Since using the MMO in
the fuel, the problem has been diminished significantly.
There is no magic here. I simply stated that I prefer to use it and
will continue to use it because in my opinion (no scientific data here)
it has benefited my engine and also the engines of those who use it.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
<jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
>
> "> Research or no research, my suggestion is to take the
> > opportunity to look inside one of the cylinders of an M14 that has
> > been using MMO in the fuel vs. one that hasn't and you will be
> > astonished at how "clean" it looks."
>
> But again Dennis, is this not actually bad? What does this actually
> mean? How much of the lubricating qualities of the normal oil is
> lost, by having such a powerful solvent that strips away normal
> combustion deposits? How imprtant is it to have an engine that is
> shiny inside anyway? I am not an engineer, so do not know the
> answers.
>
> Espicially worry is the previous comment about using it when high
> power is desired? How much of the engines longevity is shortened by
> such practice? If an engine makes more power by using an oil additive
> then one must assume the viscocity of the oil is being reduced, not
> the lubrication qualities being enhanced - otherwise we are right back
> into snake oil territory with PTFE etc. Think how great an engine
> would run with say sewing machine oil - but it won't last long.
>
> If you want to get rid of sludge is it not better to wash out the
> engine & oil line with kerosene and make sure all traces are gone
> before filling with clean oil?
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Top End Lubrication |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
Frank,
You make an excellent point in the last paragraph which I completely agree
with. But I will continue to use MMO as I have for the last 6 years in the
Yak.
"My guess is there are other top end lubricating oils that could perform
the same function as MMO. I don't think MMO has an exclusive here.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the quality two stroke
oils as a start."
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Top End Lubrication
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
<yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Dennis;
> When a scientist comes up with an idea, like oil added to gas, he can
> have all the scientific theory on his side. But until he actually tries
> to use the product, until he actually puts it into use, he really has no
> idea if it will work as intended. I don't care what field of practice
> you come from, I don't care what new idea you have, until you actually
> put that product into use you can't be certain how it will work. That is
> where empirical evidence reigns the day.
>
> Empirical evidence is derived from actual practice in using a product.
> It's not based on scientific theory (that's why scientists still have to
> test nuclear bombs despite all the computer simulations and scientific
> theory....they need to see if the things actually work!). Empirical
> evidence doesn't lie or bamboozle you with bull. It either works or it
> don't.
>
> No matter how smart you are, no matter how well you have considered an
> idea, it is only an idea until it has been proven in actual use. So then
> I ask, why do Reno racers with multi-million dollar airplanes use a top
> end lubricant like MMO? Do you think that maybe empirical evidence (they
> have actually used the product and seen what is does) has taught them
> something?
>
> Marvels Mystery Oil is used as a solvent in crankcase oil to help clean
> things and, most appropriately, as a top end lubricant. Empirical
> evidence from many, many people bears that out.
>
> My guess is there are other top end lubricating oils that could perform
> the same function as MMO. I don't think MMO has an exclusive here.
> Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the quality two stroke
> oils as a start.
>
> Frank
> N9110M
> YAK-52
> L71
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
> Savarese
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> --> <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
>
> My experience with the M14 has been that exhaust valves, particularly on
> the upper cylinders, (9, 1, 2 and sometimes 3) have a propensity for
> lead deposits causing exhaust valves to leak. Since using the MMO in
> the fuel, the problem has been diminished significantly.
>
> There is no magic here. I simply stated that I prefer to use it and
> will continue to use it because in my opinion (no scientific data here)
> it has benefited my engine and also the engines of those who use it.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - again
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen"
> <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
> >
> > "> Research or no research, my suggestion is to take the
> > > opportunity to look inside one of the cylinders of an M14 that has
> > > been using MMO in the fuel vs. one that hasn't and you will be
> > > astonished at how "clean" it looks."
> >
> > But again Dennis, is this not actually bad? What does this actually
> > mean? How much of the lubricating qualities of the normal oil is
> > lost, by having such a powerful solvent that strips away normal
> > combustion deposits? How imprtant is it to have an engine that is
> > shiny inside anyway? I am not an engineer, so do not know the
> > answers.
> >
> > Espicially worry is the previous comment about using it when high
> > power is desired? How much of the engines longevity is shortened by
> > such practice? If an engine makes more power by using an oil additive
>
> > then one must assume the viscocity of the oil is being reduced, not
> > the lubrication qualities being enhanced - otherwise we are right back
>
> > into snake oil territory with PTFE etc. Think how great an engine
> > would run with say sewing machine oil - but it won't last long.
> >
> > If you want to get rid of sludge is it not better to wash out the
> > engine & oil line with kerosene and make sure all traces are gone
> > before filling with clean oil?
> >
> >
>
>
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