Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:32 AM - Re: a NEW subject (Roger Kemp)
2. 07:15 AM - Re: Painting Tips (Robert Starnes)
3. 08:10 AM - Re: Proip feathering (Lee Taylor)
4. 08:35 AM - My Routine (Tim Gagnon)
5. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: Proip feathering (Roger Kemp)
6. 09:24 AM - Re: 285 hp Engine Out (Doug Sapp)
7. 09:41 AM - Re: Smooth Runnings (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
8. 09:45 AM - Re: Yak 50 Wanted (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
9. 09:55 AM - Re: 285 hp Engine Out (Roger Kemp)
10. 10:06 AM - Re: Smooth Runnings (Roger Kemp)
11. 10:12 AM - Re: 285 hp Engine Out (JOE)
12. 10:44 AM - Yak 52 4 sale (Jerome Van der Schaar)
13. 11:14 AM - Re: My Routine (Richard Basiliere)
14. 11:35 AM - Re: 285 hp Engine Out (A. Dennis Savarese)
15. 11:38 AM - Re: Dustoff in the Desert (RPA #103) Debrief (Barry Hancock)
16. 12:23 PM - Re: My Routine (Roger Kemp)
17. 12:27 PM - Re: My Routine (Richard Basiliere)
18. 02:02 PM - Re: My Routine (Roger Kemp)
19. 02:50 PM - emergency kit (FamilyGage@aol.com)
20. 02:51 PM - More 103 debrief (Barry Hancock)
21. 02:51 PM - Replicating RPA #103 (Barry Hancock)
22. 02:51 PM - Hitman's Yak-50 (Barry Hancock)
23. 03:56 PM - Re: 285 hp Engine Out (JOE)
24. 07:48 PM - Re: 285 hp Engine Out (A. Dennis Savarese)
25. 08:00 PM - Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out (Frank Stelwagon)
26. 08:17 PM - Re: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out (A. Dennis Savarese)
27. 11:56 PM - Re: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out (Frank Stelwagon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: a NEW subject |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Shack!
I'm landing straight ahead. For me it is a moot point. All others can do the mental
masterbation about what if's. When its in the weeds, no airspeed, and I can
find a place straight ahead. I'm opting for gear up slide!
Done been down the windmill ain't makin' thrusties trail once. Luckly it happened
at 500 ft on crosswind and less than 1/4 mi for departure. The ole glider skills
played heavily in that senario. A YAK's glide ratio aint that of a Piper
Archer! Oh Well, lived to aviate another day and a Piper/Lycoming AD got named
after me. What a claim to fame. One I would have prefered to have read about
not experienced first hand.
The bottom line is ... Fly the airplane all the way to the ground! They are making
new YAK's everyday. The last time I checked with my friends in the fertility
world, cloning just has not gotten to the instant replacement of parts or bodies
phase yet.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Sharon Heugh <rastus@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: a NEW subject
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Sharon Heugh" <rastus@mweb.co.za>
I think the Russians are VERY smart in advising the pilot to land straight
ahead. At the moment your engine quits at 800'agl, your position over the
ground is where you MAY be after a 180 deg turn and on the deck. Your Rate
of descent is going to be very high at this point, considering the 45 AOB
descending turn. Considering a turn-back below 1000' is insane. I suspect
that the Russians propose landing straight ahead after take off, after years
of painful experience. Why re-invent the wheel?
Judder - judder - stall - flick - spin - Splat - Slow march........
Rather be sure your insurance is up to date and land straight ahead.
Surviving a prang is all about pranging under control. Be the master of your
own destiny!
:-) Happy landings(-:
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: a NEW subject
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Your numbers were pretty much on. The answer is: you end up over the
> numbers with about 8 -10 feet to spare. Not a lot of wiggle room, but
> servivable. At 150 km/h (93 kt/h) and 45 deg. bank (best angle of bank for
> gliding turns), it takes 700 ft +/- 10 ft to hack a turn of 180 degrees.
> 143km/h (88Kt/h) will get the greatest distance without wind. But turning,
> the 150km/hr gives the least altitude loss. The glide ratio of the YAK-52
> clean is 7:1. Dirty it is 5:1. I prefer using 160 km/h for my glide speed
> though. Speed is life. Smash can always be converted to altitude and
> altitude can always be converted to speed. But if all you have is air
> above you and you are out of airspeed, you are going to have a bad day.
> The Russian flight manual says if engine failure before first turn at
> takeoff:
> establish best glide speed ( 150 KPH) and trim to that.
> retract gear
> operate fuel cut-off (move reward)
> switch off mags, battery, and ignition
> open cockpit
> land striaght ahead if posible, otherwise, make shallow turns
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Marsh <swampy@videotron.ca>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: a NEW subject
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Dave Marsh <swampy@videotron.ca>
>
> Roger,
>
> Ah yes. See your point. Yes, you need to try this in YOUR plane at YOUR
> airfield. When you're comfortable, try it at another airfield and note how
> less comfortable that is! However, newbies will still benefit from advice
> on
> what numbers to aim for. There's a difference between getting experience
> and
> being your own test pilot....
>
> So; anyone else brave enough to suggest an answer to Dennis's question?
> It's
> better to talk about this than leave everybody to do their own thing.
>
> Dave.
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Shack! That's why you need to climb up to 5000', pull the throttle back to
> idle, and see what it takes to turn the YAK-52 180 deg.s at 45 deg.s of
> bank. Then try a full 360. You will lose more than you thought. Try it at
> full fuel load, at 1/2 and at 20 lt.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Painting Tips |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Robert Starnes <a35plt@yahoo.com>
Ernie,
I personally recommend you stay away from the HVLP
guns. It is very difficult to get a good paint job
with HVLP. HVLP works by blowing blobs of paint as
opposed to spraying a fine mist of paint with an older
style spray gun. I have owned numerous HVLP guns,
including some pretty pricey self contained turbine
powered units. They are all now relegated to the role
of Primer guns in my shop. Buy a gun from Wal-Mart @
60 bucks or so. Look at the new cars at a dealership
and you will see orange peel all over. this is a
result of using HVLP. Foreign luxury cars are still
painted with atomizing spray guns, when's the last
time you saw orange peel on a new top of the line
Mercedes,BMW or Lexus? Their paint jobs are as smooth
as glass. Self contained turbine units also heat the
air up too much, which has the effect of drying out
your paint as soon as it hits the air stream from the
gun. HVLP is something the EPA has pushed for years
for enviromental reasons, not because it works..
The best thing you can do to get a good paint job is
prep and rig up some sort of ventilating system to
draw the overspray away from your painted surface. One
of the hardest things about painting airplanes is the
paint drying in the air and falling like dust back
into your wet paint. While you're at it buy a small
detail gun, I use mine more than the big gun
especially when spraying gear doors, etc.
-Robert Starnes
--- Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez
> <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> I'm considering using an HVLP sprayer, has anyone
> any experience with
> conversion HVLP guns? What is a decent brand at a
> decent price. I have
> a 175 PSI, 25 gallon compressor so I think I'm ok
> with the air source.
> I'll be painting with Imron.
>
> Ernie
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: Proip feathering |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Don't know if the Yak prop will actually feather, but suggest that
everyone try an experiment.
Set up a power-off glide, with the prop normally forward. (fine
pitch). Note your stabilized, trimmed-out rate of descent.
Then, without changing anything, pull the prop control ALL THE
WAY BACK, full coarse pitch.
It will be like someone released the dragging parking brake!
Your rate of descent will probably be just about halved. And this is
what you would want in any kind of emergency engine-out situation.
Re needing the engine running to achieve feather. No, not
entirely correct. All you need is the engine WINDMILLING, which you
will find will be an almost automatic situation---it is darned hard to
actually stop the prop in the air, unless the engine has completely
frozen, an almost unheard-of situation from a practical standpoint. As
long as the engine is turning over, the oil pump is operating, and you
will have oil pressure/prop control as a result.
I have taught this scenario for many years, and one night very
late landing at our fire base high up in the Sierra Nevada mountains,
after a very long, very steep descent, we unported the fuel tanks and
the engine QUIT starting to turn base. Yanking the prop control to full
coarse, (getting rid of its drag), getting rid of the flaps, and turning
IMMEDIATELY to the end of the runway was the only thing that kept us out
of the 150' pine trees lining that runway. I think there were green
stains on the wheels.
And I SWEAR that blasted 180 was snickering as we wobbled away
from it after parking to clean out our pants! "Hotshot firebomber
pilots, huh?" "Taught them humility AGAIN!" "Snickersnicker!" There
has never been a plane like the Cessna 180. And mine is about to part
company with me-----------
Lee Taylor
Message 4
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Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:34:56 -0500
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I am honing my routine and I am curious what everyone thinks. I think I need to
get a little lower so I don't have to wear a parachute (or flightsuit..), I can
just hop out!!
http://www.midcountyrc.com/videocorner/AFPD.wmv<http://www.midcountyrc.com/videocorner/AFPD.wmv>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Proip feathering |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
The burr under the saddle is this: with no power, there is nothing to suck the
oil out of the prop hub/plunger. Therefore, you can not get it back to coarse
pitch. So with engine out what you had when the squirrels gave up the ghost is
what you are going to go downstairs with.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Taylor <leetay@comcast.net>
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Proip feathering
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Don't know if the Yak prop will actually feather, but suggest that
everyone try an experiment.
Set up a power-off glide, with the prop normally forward. (fine
pitch). Note your stabilized, trimmed-out rate of descent.
Then, without changing anything, pull the prop control ALL THE
WAY BACK, full coarse pitch.
It will be like someone released the dragging parking brake!
Your rate of descent will probably be just about halved. And this is
what you would want in any kind of emergency engine-out situation.
Re needing the engine running to achieve feather. No, not
entirely correct. All you need is the engine WINDMILLING, which you
will find will be an almost automatic situation---it is darned hard to
actually stop the prop in the air, unless the engine has completely
frozen, an almost unheard-of situation from a practical standpoint. As
long as the engine is turning over, the oil pump is operating, and you
will have oil pressure/prop control as a result.
I have taught this scenario for many years, and one night very
late landing at our fire base high up in the Sierra Nevada mountains,
after a very long, very steep descent, we unported the fuel tanks and
the engine QUIT starting to turn base. Yanking the prop control to full
coarse, (getting rid of its drag), getting rid of the flaps, and turning
IMMEDIATELY to the end of the runway was the only thing that kept us out
of the 150' pine trees lining that runway. I think there were green
stains on the wheels.
And I SWEAR that blasted 180 was snickering as we wobbled away
from it after parking to clean out our pants! "Hotshot firebomber
pilots, huh?" "Taught them humility AGAIN!" "Snickersnicker!" There
has never been a plane like the Cessna 180. And mine is about to part
company with me-----------
Lee Taylor
Message 6
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| Subject: | 285 hp Engine Out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Ok guys, there has been a few responses to the question, some were heading
in the correct direction then stopped short, no one answered correctly
except in Joe Howse's email about prop feathering he got close but he was
not really responding to the question.
The correct answer is to raise the nose and stop the prop. The reason is
that you do not have a clue at this point as to why your 285 hp engine has
quit. The most likely reason is that you have sheared the shared drive on
the fuel pump. This drive also drives the oil pump. If you have sheared
the fuel pump drive, the wind milling engine is now getting no oil.
Allowing the engine to windmill from 10K to the ground with this drive
sheared will without a doubt damage your engine. Joe's pre oiler idea would
save the day in this (albeit rare) situation.
About 10 years ago CJ6 owner Danny Linkus (I may have mis spelled his last
name), called me and ordered a fuel pump drive. At that time he told me
that he had his 285 stop cold at 10K but had managed to glide to a
successful landing without harming the bird. Upon checking out the what had
caused the engine to stop he had discovered the sheared drive. The new
replacement drive was sent via Fed Ex and was installed in his engine. He
departed the airport without further problem, but within 30 minutes the
engine totally ate itself. It stopped with such suddenness that it broke
off all but one of the mount pads off the engine, the splined crank shaft
twisted a full spline out of line (I still have the nose case). Danny (now
getting to be a old hand at this) again managed to get back on the ground
safely without hurting himself or the aircraft. He called me again and
requested that I send him a fresh engine, which I did. When I received his
core I tore it down and found that one rod had completely melted off at the
main bearing, when that cylinder fired again it blew both the piston and the
rod down into the guts of the engine, where it "two blocked" the master rod,
thus stopping the engine instantly. The stoppage was so instantaneous that
the prop blades and hub were also twisted and had to be junked. Only one
mount bolt, hoses and the controls held the engine in the cowlings.
All this begs the question: With an engine out (for a reason other than a
sheared drive, lets say fuel exhaustion for example), how much oil pressure
(if any) would you see on the gauge with the prop just wind milling (at best
glide angle)?
All just food for thought.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug Sapp
Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Gents,
This line of talk brings up another question: Your are cruising along at
say 10,000 feet and your mighty 285 hp steed simply quits, you cannot keep
the engine running with the 20 plus year old wobble pump. You have already
tried everything on the emergency check list to get it lit off again and
nothing has worked, you have just consigned yourself to the fact that a dead
stick landing is now a fact of life. On the bright side there are lots of
places to land, so that's not a major problem at this point in time because
you have lots of altitude and landing options. What should be the next thing
you do as quickly as possible? and why.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out (was "a NEW topic")
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
Something to think about during this engine out turn to emergency landing.
Ever notice the Space Shuttle sprouts its wheels at the very last second
almost instantly?
If you really had your cranium working in your engine-out-turn.
I suppose you could put the gear handle in neutral.
At the very last second, it you are lucky enough to be lined up perfectly on
a road.. .
BANG goes the wheels.
Often insurance will pay to get you back to an airport if you land
undamaged.
And exactly how'd this engine quit.
Chances of a double magneto or coil failure are WAY slim.
Suppose it did happen and you pressed the starter button. . . would the
shower of sparks get you home?
Maybe, at best. The spark timing is all wrong on the starter, the extra
air. . suppose it might be worth a try tho.
It happened to a Mustang years ago and it worked. . .they worried about the
starter drive all the way back to the airport.. .
Fuel pump failure?
How long can a person run on the "wobble pump".
Carb failure?
How long could we run on the primer?
Ever been flying over terrain where a forced landing is NOT an option?
I have, living in the mountainous desert. Occasionally unavoidable.
Got any emergency supplies? . .. . me neither.
I've been working on a pack of emergency supplies that would fit in with the
parachute., but haven't gotten very far.
Tj
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Craig, did you pull the ignition tubes and shields and run the wires "out in
the open", or did you run the wires through all the original tubing and
shields?
If you ran them out in the open --- Did you ground the ignition wire shield
at the plug or at both ends? If you grounded the shields at the mags... how
did you do that?
Have you noticed any more spark noise in your radio?
Thanks for any and all info!
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: cpayne@joimail.com [mailto:cpayne@joimail.com]
Subject: Yak-List: Smooth Runnings
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
About 17 hours ago Hobbs time, I converted my M-14P to the
automotive plug/racing wire conversion that Dennis offers.
Previously, I spent a considerable amount of time trying to
be as Exact as possible in my mag timing. With the digital
Horizon tach, the mag drop difference ran about 10-15 RPM. I
couldn't seem to get it any closer because the readings
"jumped" around.
Now, with the conversion, the "jumpiness" has mellowed out
and RPM is very consistent, even on a single mag at minimum
rpm. Without re-timing the mags, the drop difference is now
within 5 RPM. These even readings now allow me to tweak the
max rpm to 2900 +/- 8 RPM.
Believe or not, I have also noted that carb adjustments also
have an effect upon how smooth the engine runs throughout
the RPM range. Rich vs Lean of course but rememember that
the AK-14 carb has several settings for differing power
settings and altitude compensation.
Craig Payne
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Good Luck Ira!
Hitman's is a real nice one. Let me know if you want it ferried to your
area... I would be glad to. I've taken 3 of them west.. and would be happy
to see one come BACK! :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Saligman [mailto:isaligman@saligman.com]
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 50 Wanted
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ira Saligman" <isaligman@saligman.com>
I am interested in a YAK 50. I have called a few of the advertised ones and
was wondering if anyone has or knows of one which is available. I would
entertain buying into a Partnership under the right conditions. I am in the
Phila area.
Let me know on or off list.
Ira
Ira Saligman
o 610 225 8421
c 610 324 5500
f 215 243 7699
<mailto:isaligman@saligman.com> isaligman@saligman.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | 285 hp Engine Out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Well darn! Now I have to hold the nose up until the prop really stops turning and
then handle the emergency!
Hum...
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Sapp <rvfltd@televar.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Ok guys, there has been a few responses to the question, some were heading
in the correct direction then stopped short, no one answered correctly
except in Joe Howse's email about prop feathering he got close but he was
not really responding to the question.
The correct answer is to raise the nose and stop the prop. The reason is
that you do not have a clue at this point as to why your 285 hp engine has
quit. The most likely reason is that you have sheared the shared drive on
the fuel pump. This drive also drives the oil pump. If you have sheared
the fuel pump drive, the wind milling engine is now getting no oil.
Allowing the engine to windmill from 10K to the ground with this drive
sheared will without a doubt damage your engine. Joe's pre oiler idea would
save the day in this (albeit rare) situation.
About 10 years ago CJ6 owner Danny Linkus (I may have mis spelled his last
name), called me and ordered a fuel pump drive. At that time he told me
that he had his 285 stop cold at 10K but had managed to glide to a
successful landing without harming the bird. Upon checking out the what had
caused the engine to stop he had discovered the sheared drive. The new
replacement drive was sent via Fed Ex and was installed in his engine. He
departed the airport without further problem, but within 30 minutes the
engine totally ate itself. It stopped with such suddenness that it broke
off all but one of the mount pads off the engine, the splined crank shaft
twisted a full spline out of line (I still have the nose case). Danny (now
getting to be a old hand at this) again managed to get back on the ground
safely without hurting himself or the aircraft. He called me again and
requested that I send him a fresh engine, which I did. When I received his
core I tore it down and found that one rod had completely melted off at the
main bearing, when that cylinder fired again it blew both the piston and the
rod down into the guts of the engine, where it "two blocked" the master rod,
thus stopping the engine instantly. The stoppage was so instantaneous that
the prop blades and hub were also twisted and had to be junked. Only one
mount bolt, hoses and the controls held the engine in the cowlings.
All this begs the question: With an engine out (for a reason other than a
sheared drive, lets say fuel exhaustion for example), how much oil pressure
(if any) would you see on the gauge with the prop just wind milling (at best
glide angle)?
All just food for thought.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug Sapp
Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Gents,
This line of talk brings up another question: Your are cruising along at
say 10,000 feet and your mighty 285 hp steed simply quits, you cannot keep
the engine running with the 20 plus year old wobble pump. You have already
tried everything on the emergency check list to get it lit off again and
nothing has worked, you have just consigned yourself to the fact that a dead
stick landing is now a fact of life. On the bright side there are lots of
places to land, so that's not a major problem at this point in time because
you have lots of altitude and landing options. What should be the next thing
you do as quickly as possible? and why.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out (was "a NEW topic")
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
Something to think about during this engine out turn to emergency landing.
Ever notice the Space Shuttle sprouts its wheels at the very last second
almost instantly?
If you really had your cranium working in your engine-out-turn.
I suppose you could put the gear handle in neutral.
At the very last second, it you are lucky enough to be lined up perfectly on
a road.. .
BANG goes the wheels.
Often insurance will pay to get you back to an airport if you land
undamaged.
And exactly how'd this engine quit.
Chances of a double magneto or coil failure are WAY slim.
Suppose it did happen and you pressed the starter button. . . would the
shower of sparks get you home?
Maybe, at best. The spark timing is all wrong on the starter, the extra
air. . suppose it might be worth a try tho.
It happened to a Mustang years ago and it worked. . .they worried about the
starter drive all the way back to the airport.. .
Fuel pump failure?
How long can a person run on the "wobble pump".
Carb failure?
How long could we run on the primer?
Ever been flying over terrain where a forced landing is NOT an option?
I have, living in the mountainous desert. Occasionally unavoidable.
Got any emergency supplies? . .. . me neither.
I've been working on a pack of emergency supplies that would fit in with the
parachute., but haven't gotten very far.
Tj
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
I hope he pulled all the ignition tubes and shields. If not his work was tripled
otherwise. The kit comes with installation instructions. The instructions are
better than most I've seen with children's toys you have to assemble every Christmas!
You can ask Dennis Savarese, but I have not heard him complain of any radio interference
and I know for a fact his performance improved. His engine is alot smoother
with this change. No, I have not made the jump yet even though Dennis
is in the hanger with me. Probably because I spent $480 on new Chinese plugs shortly
before he started this mod.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Smooth Runnings
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Craig, did you pull the ignition tubes and shields and run the wires "out in
the open", or did you run the wires through all the original tubing and
shields?
If you ran them out in the open --- Did you ground the ignition wire shield
at the plug or at both ends? If you grounded the shields at the mags... how
did you do that?
Have you noticed any more spark noise in your radio?
Thanks for any and all info!
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: cpayne@joimail.com [mailto:cpayne@joimail.com]
Subject: Yak-List: Smooth Runnings
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
About 17 hours ago Hobbs time, I converted my M-14P to the
automotive plug/racing wire conversion that Dennis offers.
Previously, I spent a considerable amount of time trying to
be as Exact as possible in my mag timing. With the digital
Horizon tach, the mag drop difference ran about 10-15 RPM. I
couldn't seem to get it any closer because the readings
"jumped" around.
Now, with the conversion, the "jumpiness" has mellowed out
and RPM is very consistent, even on a single mag at minimum
rpm. Without re-timing the mags, the drop difference is now
within 5 RPM. These even readings now allow me to tweak the
max rpm to 2900 +/- 8 RPM.
Believe or not, I have also noted that carb adjustments also
have an effect upon how smooth the engine runs throughout
the RPM range. Rich vs Lean of course but rememember that
the AK-14 carb has several settings for differing power
settings and altitude compensation.
Craig Payne
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 285 hp Engine Out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: JOE <joeh@shaw.ca>
I still maintain that the least amount of drag is coarse pitch, prop
windmilling.
Oil pressure is not required to move the blades to coarse, that is the
benefit of the counterweight system, as long as the prop is windmilling
centrifugal force on the counterweights will move the blades to coarse
pitch.
As opposed to hydramatic props that return to fine pitch with lack of oil
pressure.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Ok guys, there has been a few responses to the question, some were heading
> in the correct direction then stopped short, no one answered correctly
> except in Joe Howse's email about prop feathering he got close but he was
> not really responding to the question.
>
> The correct answer is to raise the nose and stop the prop. The reason is
> that you do not have a clue at this point as to why your 285 hp engine has
> quit. The most likely reason is that you have sheared the shared drive on
> the fuel pump. This drive also drives the oil pump. If you have sheared
> the fuel pump drive, the wind milling engine is now getting no oil.
> Allowing the engine to windmill from 10K to the ground with this drive
> sheared will without a doubt damage your engine. Joe's pre oiler idea
> would
> save the day in this (albeit rare) situation.
>
> About 10 years ago CJ6 owner Danny Linkus (I may have mis spelled his last
> name), called me and ordered a fuel pump drive. At that time he told me
> that he had his 285 stop cold at 10K but had managed to glide to a
> successful landing without harming the bird. Upon checking out the what
> had
> caused the engine to stop he had discovered the sheared drive. The new
> replacement drive was sent via Fed Ex and was installed in his engine. He
> departed the airport without further problem, but within 30 minutes the
> engine totally ate itself. It stopped with such suddenness that it broke
> off all but one of the mount pads off the engine, the splined crank shaft
> twisted a full spline out of line (I still have the nose case). Danny
> (now
> getting to be a old hand at this) again managed to get back on the ground
> safely without hurting himself or the aircraft. He called me again and
> requested that I send him a fresh engine, which I did. When I received
> his
> core I tore it down and found that one rod had completely melted off at
> the
> main bearing, when that cylinder fired again it blew both the piston and
> the
> rod down into the guts of the engine, where it "two blocked" the master
> rod,
> thus stopping the engine instantly. The stoppage was so instantaneous
> that
> the prop blades and hub were also twisted and had to be junked. Only one
> mount bolt, hoses and the controls held the engine in the cowlings.
>
> All this begs the question: With an engine out (for a reason other than a
> sheared drive, lets say fuel exhaustion for example), how much oil
> pressure
> (if any) would you see on the gauge with the prop just wind milling (at
> best
> glide angle)?
>
> All just food for thought.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug Sapp
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Gents,
> This line of talk brings up another question: Your are cruising along at
> say 10,000 feet and your mighty 285 hp steed simply quits, you cannot keep
> the engine running with the 20 plus year old wobble pump. You have already
> tried everything on the emergency check list to get it lit off again and
> nothing has worked, you have just consigned yourself to the fact that a
> dead
> stick landing is now a fact of life. On the bright side there are lots of
> places to land, so that's not a major problem at this point in time
> because
> you have lots of altitude and landing options. What should be the next
> thing
> you do as quickly as possible? and why.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out (was "a NEW topic")
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson"
> <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
>
> Something to think about during this engine out turn to emergency landing.
>
> Ever notice the Space Shuttle sprouts its wheels at the very last second
> almost instantly?
> If you really had your cranium working in your engine-out-turn.
> I suppose you could put the gear handle in neutral.
>
> At the very last second, it you are lucky enough to be lined up perfectly
> on
> a road.. .
> BANG goes the wheels.
> Often insurance will pay to get you back to an airport if you land
> undamaged.
>
> And exactly how'd this engine quit.
>
> Chances of a double magneto or coil failure are WAY slim.
> Suppose it did happen and you pressed the starter button. . . would the
> shower of sparks get you home?
> Maybe, at best. The spark timing is all wrong on the starter, the extra
> air. . suppose it might be worth a try tho.
> It happened to a Mustang years ago and it worked. . .they worried about
> the
> starter drive all the way back to the airport.. .
>
> Fuel pump failure?
> How long can a person run on the "wobble pump".
>
> Carb failure?
> How long could we run on the primer?
>
> Ever been flying over terrain where a forced landing is NOT an option?
> I have, living in the mountainous desert. Occasionally unavoidable.
> Got any emergency supplies? . .. . me neither.
> I've been working on a pack of emergency supplies that would fit in with
> the
> parachute., but haven't gotten very far.
>
> Tj
>
>
>
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerome Van der Schaar" <jvds30@hotmail.com>
Did see this one on e-bay in case anyone is interested.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26428&item=4532361159&rd=1
Jerome
www.yakkes.com
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
hop out of an RC?
>>> NiftyYak50@msn.com 3/8/2005 9:34:56 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I am honing my routine and I am curious what everyone thinks. I think I
need to get a little lower so I don't have to wear a parachute (or
flightsuit..), I can just hop out!!
<A
>
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: 285 hp Engine Out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
Joe,
The only way the counter weights can perform their function is for the oil
to be depleted from the hub piston assembly. With the engine not running,
how is the oil removed from the prop piston assembly? The prop governor
shaft must be turning at a fairly high rate of speed to extract the oil from
the piston assembly. If that wasn't the case, you'd be able to use physical
force on the counterweights while on the ground to move the blades to coarse
pitch. Which we all know can not be done.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "JOE" <joeh@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: JOE <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> I still maintain that the least amount of drag is coarse pitch, prop
> windmilling.
> Oil pressure is not required to move the blades to coarse, that is the
> benefit of the counterweight system, as long as the prop is windmilling
> centrifugal force on the counterweights will move the blades to coarse
> pitch.
> As opposed to hydramatic props that return to fine pitch with lack of oil
> pressure.
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >
> > Ok guys, there has been a few responses to the question, some were
heading
> > in the correct direction then stopped short, no one answered correctly
> > except in Joe Howse's email about prop feathering he got close but he
was
> > not really responding to the question.
> >
> > The correct answer is to raise the nose and stop the prop. The reason
is
> > that you do not have a clue at this point as to why your 285 hp engine
has
> > quit. The most likely reason is that you have sheared the shared drive
on
> > the fuel pump. This drive also drives the oil pump. If you have
sheared
> > the fuel pump drive, the wind milling engine is now getting no oil.
> > Allowing the engine to windmill from 10K to the ground with this drive
> > sheared will without a doubt damage your engine. Joe's pre oiler idea
> > would
> > save the day in this (albeit rare) situation.
> >
> > About 10 years ago CJ6 owner Danny Linkus (I may have mis spelled his
last
> > name), called me and ordered a fuel pump drive. At that time he told me
> > that he had his 285 stop cold at 10K but had managed to glide to a
> > successful landing without harming the bird. Upon checking out the what
> > had
> > caused the engine to stop he had discovered the sheared drive. The new
> > replacement drive was sent via Fed Ex and was installed in his engine.
He
> > departed the airport without further problem, but within 30 minutes the
> > engine totally ate itself. It stopped with such suddenness that it
broke
> > off all but one of the mount pads off the engine, the splined crank
shaft
> > twisted a full spline out of line (I still have the nose case). Danny
> > (now
> > getting to be a old hand at this) again managed to get back on the
ground
> > safely without hurting himself or the aircraft. He called me again and
> > requested that I send him a fresh engine, which I did. When I received
> > his
> > core I tore it down and found that one rod had completely melted off at
> > the
> > main bearing, when that cylinder fired again it blew both the piston and
> > the
> > rod down into the guts of the engine, where it "two blocked" the master
> > rod,
> > thus stopping the engine instantly. The stoppage was so instantaneous
> > that
> > the prop blades and hub were also twisted and had to be junked. Only
one
> > mount bolt, hoses and the controls held the engine in the cowlings.
> >
> > All this begs the question: With an engine out (for a reason other than
a
> > sheared drive, lets say fuel exhaustion for example), how much oil
> > pressure
> > (if any) would you see on the gauge with the prop just wind milling (at
> > best
> > glide angle)?
> >
> > All just food for thought.
> >
> > Always Yakin,
> > Doug Sapp
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug Sapp
> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out
> >
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >
> > Gents,
> > This line of talk brings up another question: Your are cruising along
at
> > say 10,000 feet and your mighty 285 hp steed simply quits, you cannot
keep
> > the engine running with the 20 plus year old wobble pump. You have
already
> > tried everything on the emergency check list to get it lit off again and
> > nothing has worked, you have just consigned yourself to the fact that a
> > dead
> > stick landing is now a fact of life. On the bright side there are lots
of
> > places to land, so that's not a major problem at this point in time
> > because
> > you have lots of altitude and landing options. What should be the next
> > thing
> > you do as quickly as possible? and why.
> >
> > Always Yakin,
> > Doug Sapp
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out (was "a NEW topic")
> >
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson"
> > <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
> >
> > Something to think about during this engine out turn to emergency
landing.
> >
> > Ever notice the Space Shuttle sprouts its wheels at the very last second
> > almost instantly?
> > If you really had your cranium working in your engine-out-turn.
> > I suppose you could put the gear handle in neutral.
> >
> > At the very last second, it you are lucky enough to be lined up
perfectly
> > on
> > a road.. .
> > BANG goes the wheels.
> > Often insurance will pay to get you back to an airport if you land
> > undamaged.
> >
> > And exactly how'd this engine quit.
> >
> > Chances of a double magneto or coil failure are WAY slim.
> > Suppose it did happen and you pressed the starter button. . . would the
> > shower of sparks get you home?
> > Maybe, at best. The spark timing is all wrong on the starter, the extra
> > air. . suppose it might be worth a try tho.
> > It happened to a Mustang years ago and it worked. . .they worried about
> > the
> > starter drive all the way back to the airport.. .
> >
> > Fuel pump failure?
> > How long can a person run on the "wobble pump".
> >
> > Carb failure?
> > How long could we run on the primer?
> >
> > Ever been flying over terrain where a forced landing is NOT an option?
> > I have, living in the mountainous desert. Occasionally unavoidable.
> > Got any emergency supplies? . .. . me neither.
> > I've been working on a pack of emergency supplies that would fit in with
> > the
> > parachute., but haven't gotten very far.
> >
> > Tj
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Dustoff in the Desert (RPA #103) Debrief |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <radialpower@cox.net>
> Big Eye,
>
> ABCCC went the way of the T-34's several years ago, While I was in
> C-130 Flight
> Engineer School. I beleive the mission is now handled by AWAX.
>
> Too Bad
> John Fischer
Too Bad,
We also had SA-2's, SA-4's, SA-6's, and Zeus's. We are not trying to
replicate modern combat (alas, the Yak-52 does not have thrust
vectoring). We are more closely matching the mission to the machines.
A former F-4 driver from Vietnam said that the comms were very similar
to combat missions in that war....we achieved what we were after.
I supposed when we put this on with L-jets we'll change over to AWACS.
;)
Bdog
(Exxon 11/Big Eye)
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Get a YAK - 55. Then you will have a similar thrust to weight ratio and come close
to that RC routine. To bad when you perform the routine for the Air Show crowd
that you have to be on the other side of the runway over the trees or rocks
if you live out west. Guess you could always park in a tree and climb down.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Basiliere <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: My Routine
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
hop out of an RC?
>>> NiftyYak50@msn.com 3/8/2005 9:34:56 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I am honing my routine and I am curious what everyone thinks. I think I
need to get a little lower so I don't have to wear a parachute (or
flightsuit..), I can just hop out!!
<A
>
Message 17
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Have one. Longwing. #870403 Has beaten SU-26 on Unlimited Sequence...
Love her
Rick
>>> viperdoc@mindspring.com 3/8/2005 1:19:41 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Get a YAK - 55. Then you will have a similar thrust to weight ratio and
come close to that RC routine. To bad when you perform the routine for
the Air Show crowd that you have to be on the other side of the runway
over the trees or rocks if you live out west. Guess you could always
park in a tree and climb down.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Basiliere <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: My Routine
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere"
<BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
hop out of an RC?
>>> NiftyYak50@msn.com 3/8/2005 9:34:56 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I am honing my routine and I am curious what everyone thinks. I think
I
need to get a little lower so I don't have to wear a parachute (or
flightsuit..), I can just hop out!!
<A
>
Message 18
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Whooh, guess I stepped in it. There is an attorney over in the Atlanta region that
flies an awsome routine with his. He does the translation thing hanging on
the nose of his all the way down the runway. Impressive! Do not want to be in
cockpit if the M-14 coughs though when he's hanging there in the vertical.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Basiliere <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: My Routine
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Have one. Longwing. #870403 Has beaten SU-26 on Unlimited Sequence...
Love her
Rick
>>> viperdoc@mindspring.com 3/8/2005 1:19:41 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Get a YAK - 55. Then you will have a similar thrust to weight ratio and
come close to that RC routine. To bad when you perform the routine for
the Air Show crowd that you have to be on the other side of the runway
over the trees or rocks if you live out west. Guess you could always
park in a tree and climb down.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Basiliere <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: My Routine
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere"
<BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
hop out of an RC?
>>> NiftyYak50@msn.com 3/8/2005 9:34:56 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I am honing my routine and I am curious what everyone thinks. I think
I
need to get a little lower so I don't have to wear a parachute (or
flightsuit..), I can just hop out!!
<A
>
Message 19
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--> Yak-List message posted by: FamilyGage@aol.com
I brought this inexpensive kit with me to Waycross to show to the group, but
forgot to bring it to a pilots meeting.
Most of my time involved Bill Walker and Bob Langford teaching me how to
start the M-14 in cold weather.
Found this at Wal-Mart after the hurricanes for $17.95. Your local store
may not have it in stock now, but I am sure that they could get one for you.
Called " Ready Kit by Home Guard, Inc.".
1. Comes in a small day-glow orange backpack.
2. Ten sealed packs of emergency drinking water.
3. Six sealed emergency food rations.
4. Fifty sq. yd's. of barrier sheeting.
5. Orange flashlight with six Eveready D-cells.
6. Compact AM-FM pocket radio with four AAA-cells.
7. Twenty yards of day-glow orange duct tape.
8. Thirty piece sealed first aid kit.
9. One pair non latex disposable gloves.
10. One 3-M respirator mask.
11. Two biohazard waste bags.
I have added a Lumberman (Swiss Army Type) knife. Boat flares. Signal
mirror. etc.
This kit easily fits in the baggage compartment, and you can't beat the
price. At the least, it would be a good start.
Ray
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | More 103 debrief |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <barry@flyredstar.org>
Gang,
I have been asked to post this for a non-subscriber who was at the
event. The reason I share all of this with you is to give you others
perspectives on the weekend. We truly hope this will grow into a great
event. It literally needs 10-12 air crews and an additional 15-20
ground crews to pull this off in full. The ground/support crews will
be in on all briefs and add layers of realism to the event....a great
introduction to air war simulations. There are a multitude of roles,
but one of them that I think will be really fun it to be at the primary
target with 10 model rockets that you launch when the strike packages
in...then judge their response. You will also be in on the comm.
matrix, etc. Anyway, here's another bit of feedback from the weekend.
The author of this was part of the original Top Gun squadron. He is
the infamous "Tiger Two" from previous posts and not a Yak-list
subscriber:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Drew and Barry, congratulations on a superb event!The hard work and
investment of time by you two made this a memorable time for all.The
pre event planning, organization and coordination were clearly
evident.=A0 Nothing like this happens by accident and we are all deeply
appreciative.
=A0
The San Diego contingent, Buzzard, Mad Dog, Cowboy and Condor
approached this weekend with considerable skepticism.What we
experienced was two of the most rewarding and fun filled days that we
have shared since we have been flying the YAK-52.The quality of the
=93sticks=94 involved, the willingness to share information, the laughs,
the challenges, the camaraderie, made it memorable.=A0 I would strongly
recommend this format to anyone who is interested in learning, being
challenged and rediscovering the joy of flying.
=A0
Tactical formation was a great warm-up exercise.It allowed us to work
on spatial orientation, energy management, situational awareness, as
well as inter aircraft communication and coordination.
=A0
The =93Big Show=94 was truly engaging.One of the most important results
was the team building that resulted from the pre-flight planning and
from working together against a common enemy.We rediscovered some
lost skills and refined those that we thought we had already perfected.
=A0This was a great mental exercise as well as a challenge to our
airmanship.This event also allowed us to recognize some of our
weaknesses.Now that we have recognized them, we can work on that
aspect of our airmanship.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Replicating RPA #103 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <barry@flyredstar.org>
> Even though I only understood about 50% of that, it sounded like fun.
> We gotta try this at Waycross next year, if there is anyone who can
> translate all this into english for me :)
It is a lot of fun! However, there are a TON of considerations before
you put something like this on.
Guys with military backgrounds need to run it and be involved on all
levels. We had 3 guys with combat experience, and all but 2 of us had
former military experience. All pilots were VERY experienced formation
pilots that were fluent in Tac From, Low Level, and BFM (the SA and
comms of BFM are required, not the actual maneuvers). That's the ONLY
reason we were able to pull this off in a weekend. Red Air pilots all
need to be 2 v. 1 competent.
Next year is probably a little ambitious for out East, but it's
something to shoot for. Get guys fluent in all the Advanced Tactical
elements (realistically, it takes a few years....remember, we've been
at this for 3 years out west). I'm sure Drew and I will come out there
to help run things when you get to that point.
In the mean time, guys that are interested can come out west and lend
ground support (much needed and a great way to get exposure to this
complex environment) to the event....Palm Springs is very nice in
March! ;)
We need to be careful in approaching these things...one mission gone
bad will spell the end of it for all of us.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming..... :)
Cheers,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Western Regional Coordinator
RedStar Pilots Association
(949) 300-5510
www.flyredstar.org
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
Message 22
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <barry@flyredstar.org>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: <johnhilterman1@cox.net>
>
> Ira,
>
> Take a look at the photos of my Yak-50. I might be interested in
> selling
> her......looking to get a Pitts S-2C.....my boys are getting of age
> and I
> need to start them flying. Let me know if you want further details.
>
> Hitman
What?!?!? Don't you dare sell that thing before ARS.....and I guess
we'll still let you come play Red Air next year in your Pitts....maybe.
:)-
Yak-50, serial #001 is also for sale. It's listed on barnstormers.com.
Barry
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 285 hp Engine Out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: JOE <joeh@shaw.ca>
Dennis
I am assuming the engine is windmilling therefore the counterweights exert
force to coarse pitch.
If the prop handle is in the coarse position the governor valve will be
open to allow the oil in the prop to be dumped back into the engine.
See Fig. 7, page 11, governor operation M14 manual.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
>
> Joe,
> The only way the counter weights can perform their function is for the oil
> to be depleted from the hub piston assembly. With the engine not running,
> how is the oil removed from the prop piston assembly? The prop governor
> shaft must be turning at a fairly high rate of speed to extract the oil
> from
> the piston assembly. If that wasn't the case, you'd be able to use
> physical
> force on the counterweights while on the ground to move the blades to
> coarse
> pitch. Which we all know can not be done.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JOE" <joeh@shaw.ca>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: JOE <joeh@shaw.ca>
>>
>> I still maintain that the least amount of drag is coarse pitch, prop
>> windmilling.
>> Oil pressure is not required to move the blades to coarse, that is the
>> benefit of the counterweight system, as long as the prop is windmilling
>> centrifugal force on the counterweights will move the blades to coarse
>> pitch.
>> As opposed to hydramatic props that return to fine pitch with lack of oil
>> pressure.
>>
>> Joe
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
>>
>>
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>> >
>> > Ok guys, there has been a few responses to the question, some were
> heading
>> > in the correct direction then stopped short, no one answered correctly
>> > except in Joe Howse's email about prop feathering he got close but he
> was
>> > not really responding to the question.
>> >
>> > The correct answer is to raise the nose and stop the prop. The reason
> is
>> > that you do not have a clue at this point as to why your 285 hp engine
> has
>> > quit. The most likely reason is that you have sheared the shared drive
> on
>> > the fuel pump. This drive also drives the oil pump. If you have
> sheared
>> > the fuel pump drive, the wind milling engine is now getting no oil.
>> > Allowing the engine to windmill from 10K to the ground with this drive
>> > sheared will without a doubt damage your engine. Joe's pre oiler idea
>> > would
>> > save the day in this (albeit rare) situation.
>> >
>> > About 10 years ago CJ6 owner Danny Linkus (I may have mis spelled his
> last
>> > name), called me and ordered a fuel pump drive. At that time he told
>> > me
>> > that he had his 285 stop cold at 10K but had managed to glide to a
>> > successful landing without harming the bird. Upon checking out the
>> > what
>> > had
>> > caused the engine to stop he had discovered the sheared drive. The new
>> > replacement drive was sent via Fed Ex and was installed in his engine.
> He
>> > departed the airport without further problem, but within 30 minutes the
>> > engine totally ate itself. It stopped with such suddenness that it
> broke
>> > off all but one of the mount pads off the engine, the splined crank
> shaft
>> > twisted a full spline out of line (I still have the nose case). Danny
>> > (now
>> > getting to be a old hand at this) again managed to get back on the
> ground
>> > safely without hurting himself or the aircraft. He called me again and
>> > requested that I send him a fresh engine, which I did. When I received
>> > his
>> > core I tore it down and found that one rod had completely melted off at
>> > the
>> > main bearing, when that cylinder fired again it blew both the piston
>> > and
>> > the
>> > rod down into the guts of the engine, where it "two blocked" the master
>> > rod,
>> > thus stopping the engine instantly. The stoppage was so instantaneous
>> > that
>> > the prop blades and hub were also twisted and had to be junked. Only
> one
>> > mount bolt, hoses and the controls held the engine in the cowlings.
>> >
>> > All this begs the question: With an engine out (for a reason other
>> > than
> a
>> > sheared drive, lets say fuel exhaustion for example), how much oil
>> > pressure
>> > (if any) would you see on the gauge with the prop just wind milling (at
>
>> > best
>> > glide angle)?
>> >
>> > All just food for thought.
>> >
>> > Always Yakin,
>> > Doug Sapp
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug Sapp
>> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out
>> >
>> >
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>> >
>> > Gents,
>> > This line of talk brings up another question: Your are cruising along
> at
>> > say 10,000 feet and your mighty 285 hp steed simply quits, you cannot
> keep
>> > the engine running with the 20 plus year old wobble pump. You have
> already
>> > tried everything on the emergency check list to get it lit off again
>> > and
>> > nothing has worked, you have just consigned yourself to the fact that a
>> > dead
>> > stick landing is now a fact of life. On the bright side there are lots
> of
>> > places to land, so that's not a major problem at this point in time
>> > because
>> > you have lots of altitude and landing options. What should be the next
>> > thing
>> > you do as quickly as possible? and why.
>> >
>> > Always Yakin,
>> > Doug Sapp
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
>> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out (was "a NEW topic")
>> >
>> >
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson"
>> > <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
>> >
>> > Something to think about during this engine out turn to emergency
> landing.
>> >
>> > Ever notice the Space Shuttle sprouts its wheels at the very last
>> > second
>> > almost instantly?
>> > If you really had your cranium working in your engine-out-turn.
>> > I suppose you could put the gear handle in neutral.
>> >
>> > At the very last second, it you are lucky enough to be lined up
> perfectly
>> > on
>> > a road.. .
>> > BANG goes the wheels.
>> > Often insurance will pay to get you back to an airport if you land
>> > undamaged.
>> >
>> > And exactly how'd this engine quit.
>> >
>> > Chances of a double magneto or coil failure are WAY slim.
>> > Suppose it did happen and you pressed the starter button. . . would the
>> > shower of sparks get you home?
>> > Maybe, at best. The spark timing is all wrong on the starter, the
>> > extra
>> > air. . suppose it might be worth a try tho.
>> > It happened to a Mustang years ago and it worked. . .they worried about
>> > the
>> > starter drive all the way back to the airport.. .
>> >
>> > Fuel pump failure?
>> > How long can a person run on the "wobble pump".
>> >
>> > Carb failure?
>> > How long could we run on the primer?
>> >
>> > Ever been flying over terrain where a forced landing is NOT an option?
>> > I have, living in the mountainous desert. Occasionally unavoidable.
>> > Got any emergency supplies? . .. . me neither.
>> > I've been working on a pack of emergency supplies that would fit in
>> > with
>> > the
>> > parachute., but haven't gotten very far.
>> >
>> > Tj
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: 285 hp Engine Out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
Come on Joe! Of course the counterweights are going to pull the blades to
coarse pitch PROVIDED the windmilling rpm is adequate for the prop governor
to function. The key is the windmilling rpm? Do you really think you can
get the engine windmilling at over 40%? Over 50%? Tell you what. Next
time you start your airplane and get the oil temp and cyl. temp up to
operational levels, set the RPM to say 40%. Now pull the prop lever back
and see what happens. Did the prop blades move to coarse pitch? Next, move
the throttle up to 50% and try the same thing. Continue this in 5%
increments until you have a change in blade angle. Then tell us what RPM
the engine has achieve when windmilling before the blades will move to full
coarse pitch.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "JOE" <joeh@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: JOE <joeh@shaw.ca>
>
> Dennis
>
> I am assuming the engine is windmilling therefore the counterweights exert
> force to coarse pitch.
> If the prop handle is in the coarse position the governor valve will be
> open to allow the oil in the prop to be dumped back into the engine.
> See Fig. 7, page 11, governor operation M14 manual.
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> > <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
> >
> > Joe,
> > The only way the counter weights can perform their function is for the
oil
> > to be depleted from the hub piston assembly. With the engine not
running,
> > how is the oil removed from the prop piston assembly? The prop governor
> > shaft must be turning at a fairly high rate of speed to extract the oil
> > from
> > the piston assembly. If that wasn't the case, you'd be able to use
> > physical
> > force on the counterweights while on the ground to move the blades to
> > coarse
> > pitch. Which we all know can not be done.
> > Dennis
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "JOE" <joeh@shaw.ca>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
> >
> >
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: JOE <joeh@shaw.ca>
> >>
> >> I still maintain that the least amount of drag is coarse pitch, prop
> >> windmilling.
> >> Oil pressure is not required to move the blades to coarse, that is the
> >> benefit of the counterweight system, as long as the prop is windmilling
> >> centrifugal force on the counterweights will move the blades to coarse
> >> pitch.
> >> As opposed to hydramatic props that return to fine pitch with lack of
oil
> >> pressure.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: 285 hp Engine Out
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >> >
> >> > Ok guys, there has been a few responses to the question, some were
> > heading
> >> > in the correct direction then stopped short, no one answered
correctly
> >> > except in Joe Howse's email about prop feathering he got close but he
> > was
> >> > not really responding to the question.
> >> >
> >> > The correct answer is to raise the nose and stop the prop. The
reason
> > is
> >> > that you do not have a clue at this point as to why your 285 hp
engine
> > has
> >> > quit. The most likely reason is that you have sheared the shared
drive
> > on
> >> > the fuel pump. This drive also drives the oil pump. If you have
> > sheared
> >> > the fuel pump drive, the wind milling engine is now getting no oil.
> >> > Allowing the engine to windmill from 10K to the ground with this
drive
> >> > sheared will without a doubt damage your engine. Joe's pre oiler
idea
> >> > would
> >> > save the day in this (albeit rare) situation.
> >> >
> >> > About 10 years ago CJ6 owner Danny Linkus (I may have mis spelled his
> > last
> >> > name), called me and ordered a fuel pump drive. At that time he told
> >> > me
> >> > that he had his 285 stop cold at 10K but had managed to glide to a
> >> > successful landing without harming the bird. Upon checking out the
> >> > what
> >> > had
> >> > caused the engine to stop he had discovered the sheared drive. The
new
> >> > replacement drive was sent via Fed Ex and was installed in his
engine.
> > He
> >> > departed the airport without further problem, but within 30 minutes
the
> >> > engine totally ate itself. It stopped with such suddenness that it
> > broke
> >> > off all but one of the mount pads off the engine, the splined crank
> > shaft
> >> > twisted a full spline out of line (I still have the nose case).
Danny
> >> > (now
> >> > getting to be a old hand at this) again managed to get back on the
> > ground
> >> > safely without hurting himself or the aircraft. He called me again
and
> >> > requested that I send him a fresh engine, which I did. When I
received
> >> > his
> >> > core I tore it down and found that one rod had completely melted off
at
> >> > the
> >> > main bearing, when that cylinder fired again it blew both the piston
> >> > and
> >> > the
> >> > rod down into the guts of the engine, where it "two blocked" the
master
> >> > rod,
> >> > thus stopping the engine instantly. The stoppage was so
instantaneous
> >> > that
> >> > the prop blades and hub were also twisted and had to be junked. Only
> > one
> >> > mount bolt, hoses and the controls held the engine in the cowlings.
> >> >
> >> > All this begs the question: With an engine out (for a reason other
> >> > than
> > a
> >> > sheared drive, lets say fuel exhaustion for example), how much oil
> >> > pressure
> >> > (if any) would you see on the gauge with the prop just wind milling
(at
> >
> >> > best
> >> > glide angle)?
> >> >
> >> > All just food for thought.
> >> >
> >> > Always Yakin,
> >> > Doug Sapp
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> >> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug Sapp
> >> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >> > Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
> >> >
> >> > Gents,
> >> > This line of talk brings up another question: Your are cruising
along
> > at
> >> > say 10,000 feet and your mighty 285 hp steed simply quits, you cannot
> > keep
> >> > the engine running with the 20 plus year old wobble pump. You have
> > already
> >> > tried everything on the emergency check list to get it lit off again
> >> > and
> >> > nothing has worked, you have just consigned yourself to the fact that
a
> >> > dead
> >> > stick landing is now a fact of life. On the bright side there are
lots
> > of
> >> > places to land, so that's not a major problem at this point in time
> >> > because
> >> > you have lots of altitude and landing options. What should be the
next
> >> > thing
> >> > you do as quickly as possible? and why.
> >> >
> >> > Always Yakin,
> >> > Doug Sapp
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> >> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
> >> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >> > Subject: Yak-List: Engine Out (was "a NEW topic")
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson"
> >> > <tjohnson@cannonaviation.com>
> >> >
> >> > Something to think about during this engine out turn to emergency
> > landing.
> >> >
> >> > Ever notice the Space Shuttle sprouts its wheels at the very last
> >> > second
> >> > almost instantly?
> >> > If you really had your cranium working in your engine-out-turn.
> >> > I suppose you could put the gear handle in neutral.
> >> >
> >> > At the very last second, it you are lucky enough to be lined up
> > perfectly
> >> > on
> >> > a road.. .
> >> > BANG goes the wheels.
> >> > Often insurance will pay to get you back to an airport if you land
> >> > undamaged.
> >> >
> >> > And exactly how'd this engine quit.
> >> >
> >> > Chances of a double magneto or coil failure are WAY slim.
> >> > Suppose it did happen and you pressed the starter button. . . would
the
> >> > shower of sparks get you home?
> >> > Maybe, at best. The spark timing is all wrong on the starter, the
> >> > extra
> >> > air. . suppose it might be worth a try tho.
> >> > It happened to a Mustang years ago and it worked. . .they worried
about
> >> > the
> >> > starter drive all the way back to the airport.. .
> >> >
> >> > Fuel pump failure?
> >> > How long can a person run on the "wobble pump".
> >> >
> >> > Carb failure?
> >> > How long could we run on the primer?
> >> >
> >> > Ever been flying over terrain where a forced landing is NOT an
option?
> >> > I have, living in the mountainous desert. Occasionally unavoidable.
> >> > Got any emergency supplies? . .. . me neither.
> >> > I've been working on a pack of emergency supplies that would fit in
> >> > with
> >> > the
> >> > parachute., but haven't gotten very far.
> >> >
> >> > Tj
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Come on guys go down to the library or your favorite aviation book store and get
the class book for A&Ps and find out how a prop governor and constant speed
prop works. Also look through the rest of the book and find out how your engine
works, would be a great benefit to you.
Frank
CJ6-A N23021
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
Frank,
With all due respect, I believe I am fairly well versed on the operation of
the prop governor and constant speed prop as well as knowing how the M14
works. The question is do you know how they work and if you do, why didn't
you contribute to the discussion? Or are you just lurking out there looking
to criticize and belittle those who may really be knowledgeable and do
challenge responses?
So the question to you then is, if your engine quits and you move the prop
control to full coarse pitch, will the blades move to full coarse pitch?
What rpm does your engine have to windmill at to insure a fully functioning
prop governor? If you don't know that answer, I challenge you to run the
test I suggested to Joe on the ground.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>
> Come on guys go down to the library or your favorite aviation book store
and get the class book for A&Ps and find out how a prop governor and
constant speed prop works. Also look through the rest of the book and find
out how your engine works, would be a great benefit to you.
>
> Frank
> CJ6-A N23021
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
No I am not just lurking out here waiting to criticize, I was making a point
that learning how things work is a good idea and the information is
available. The M14 or the 285 is no different principle wise than any other
radial and the Power Plant A&P manual has a wealth of information in it.
There is a lot of BS going back and forth, reference the flight suit issue
that got absurd.
Frank
CJ
-A N23021
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
>
> Frank,
> With all due respect, I believe I am fairly well versed on the operation
> of
> the prop governor and constant speed prop as well as knowing how the M14
> works. The question is do you know how they work and if you do, why
> didn't
> you contribute to the discussion? Or are you just lurking out there
> looking
> to criticize and belittle those who may really be knowledgeable and do
> challenge responses?
>
> So the question to you then is, if your engine quits and you move the prop
> control to full coarse pitch, will the blades move to full coarse pitch?
> What rpm does your engine have to windmill at to insure a fully
> functioning
> prop governor? If you don't know that answer, I challenge you to run the
> test I suggested to Joe on the ground.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
> <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Come on guys go down to the library or your favorite aviation book store
> and get the class book for A&Ps and find out how a prop governor and
> constant speed prop works. Also look through the rest of the book and
> find
> out how your engine works, would be a great benefit to you.
>>
>> Frank
>> CJ6-A N23021
>>
>>
>
>
>
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