Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:24 AM - Re: a NEW subject (Steve & Sharon Heugh)
2. 04:41 AM - Re: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: a NEW subject (Roger Kemp)
4. 07:34 AM - Dennis Savarese (Richard Goode)
5. 07:48 AM - Re: Dennis Savarese (A. Dennis Savarese)
6. 08:20 AM - Power loss emergencies (Lee Taylor)
7. 09:28 AM - Chinese Emblem Stencil (Ernest Martinez)
8. 10:52 AM - Let's separate the issues at hand. (Doug Sapp)
9. 12:06 PM - Re: Chinese Emblem Stencil (ByronMFox@aol.com)
10. 12:20 PM - Re: Chinese Emblem Stencil (Ernest Martinez)
11. 12:22 PM - SNF 1 Month Out (cpayne@joimail.com)
12. 01:20 PM - Re: Let's separate the issues at hand. (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
13. 03:23 PM - SF Bay Area Yaks (ByronMFox@aol.com)
14. 03:39 PM - Leeward Mini Clinic (Ernest Martinez)
15. 03:47 PM - Aerobatic Box Moratorium??? (Ernest Martinez)
16. 04:11 PM - Re: Aerobatic Box Moratorium??? (Richard Basiliere)
17. 05:17 PM - Re: Aerobatic Box Moratorium??? (Roger Kemp)
18. 06:00 PM - Re: Leeward Mini Clinic (cjpilot710@aol.com)
19. 06:01 PM - Re: SF Bay Area Yaks (YakL1@aol.com)
20. 06:03 PM - Re: Power loss emergencies (A. Dennis Savarese)
21. 06:38 PM - Re:yak-list:285 hp engine shutdown (Frank Stelwagon)
22. 06:52 PM - Re: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine shutdown (A. Dennis Savarese)
23. 07:22 PM - Re: Leeward Mini-clinic (cpayne@joimail.com)
24. 07:23 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 03/05/05 (Cj6sly@cs.com)
25. 07:35 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 03/05/05 (Cj6sly@cs.com)
26. 07:36 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 03/06/05 (Cj6sly@cs.com)
27. 09:38 PM - Re: Power loss emergencies (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: a NEW subject |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Sharon Heugh" <rastus@mweb.co.za>
Hi Doc
Glad you are still with us! I've been there too! I didn't get off as
lightly as you, but am fortunately back in the saddle!
Steve
Steve & Sharon Heugh
rastus@mweb.co.za
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: a NEW subject
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Shack!
> I'm landing straight ahead. For me it is a moot point. All others can do
> the mental masterbation about what if's. When its in the weeds, no
> airspeed, and I can find a place straight ahead. I'm opting for gear up
> slide!
> Done been down the windmill ain't makin' thrusties trail once. Luckly it
> happened at 500 ft on crosswind and less than 1/4 mi for departure. The
> ole glider skills played heavily in that senario. A YAK's glide ratio aint
> that of a Piper Archer! Oh Well, lived to aviate another day and a
> Piper/Lycoming AD got named after me. What a claim to fame. One I would
> have prefered to have read about not experienced first hand.
> The bottom line is ... Fly the airplane all the way to the ground! They
> are making new YAK's everyday. The last time I checked with my friends in
> the fertility world, cloning just has not gotten to the instant
> replacement of parts or bodies phase yet.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve & Sharon Heugh <rastus@mweb.co.za>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: a NEW subject
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Sharon Heugh" <rastus@mweb.co.za>
>
> I think the Russians are VERY smart in advising the pilot to land straight
> ahead. At the moment your engine quits at 800'agl, your position over the
> ground is where you MAY be after a 180 deg turn and on the deck. Your
> Rate
> of descent is going to be very high at this point, considering the 45 AOB
> descending turn. Considering a turn-back below 1000' is insane. I suspect
> that the Russians propose landing straight ahead after take off, after
> years
> of painful experience. Why re-invent the wheel?
>
> Judder - judder - stall - flick - spin - Splat - Slow march........
>
> Rather be sure your insurance is up to date and land straight ahead.
> Surviving a prang is all about pranging under control. Be the master of
> your
> own destiny!
>
> :-) Happy landings(-:
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: a NEW subject
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Your numbers were pretty much on. The answer is: you end up over the
>> numbers with about 8 -10 feet to spare. Not a lot of wiggle room, but
>> servivable. At 150 km/h (93 kt/h) and 45 deg. bank (best angle of bank
>> for
>> gliding turns), it takes 700 ft +/- 10 ft to hack a turn of 180 degrees.
>> 143km/h (88Kt/h) will get the greatest distance without wind. But
>> turning,
>> the 150km/hr gives the least altitude loss. The glide ratio of the
>> YAK-52
>> clean is 7:1. Dirty it is 5:1. I prefer using 160 km/h for my glide speed
>> though. Speed is life. Smash can always be converted to altitude and
>> altitude can always be converted to speed. But if all you have is air
>> above you and you are out of airspeed, you are going to have a bad day.
>> The Russian flight manual says if engine failure before first turn at
>> takeoff:
>> establish best glide speed ( 150 KPH) and trim to that.
>> retract gear
>> operate fuel cut-off (move reward)
>> switch off mags, battery, and ignition
>> open cockpit
>> land striaght ahead if posible, otherwise, make shallow turns
>> Doc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dave Marsh <swampy@videotron.ca>
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: a NEW subject
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Dave Marsh <swampy@videotron.ca>
>>
>> Roger,
>>
>> Ah yes. See your point. Yes, you need to try this in YOUR plane at YOUR
>> airfield. When you're comfortable, try it at another airfield and note
>> how
>> less comfortable that is! However, newbies will still benefit from advice
>> on
>> what numbers to aim for. There's a difference between getting experience
>> and
>> being your own test pilot....
>>
>> So; anyone else brave enough to suggest an answer to Dennis's question?
>> It's
>> better to talk about this than leave everybody to do their own thing.
>>
>> Dave.
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Shack! That's why you need to climb up to 5000', pull the throttle back
>> to
>> idle, and see what it takes to turn the YAK-52 180 deg.s at 45 deg.s of
>> bank. Then try a full 360. You will lose more than you thought. Try it at
>> full fuel load, at 1/2 and at 20 lt.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
I certainly agree with you about the flight suit issue. I also agree with
you about the Power Plant A&P manual, which I have read. My rebuttal is
based on years and years of experience with the M14 and other engines of
course. I did not want people to think they can expect their prop blades to
go to full coarse pitch with the engine simply windmilling. And if they
didn't think my
information is accurate, they should go prove it to themselves using the
test scenario I suggested.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>
> No I am not just lurking out here waiting to criticize, I was making a
point
> that learning how things work is a good idea and the information is
> available. The M14 or the 285 is no different principle wise than any
other
> radial and the Power Plant A&P manual has a wealth of information in it.
> There is a lot of BS going back and forth, reference the flight suit issue
> that got absurd.
>
> Frank
> CJ
> -A N23021
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> > <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
> >
> > Frank,
> > With all due respect, I believe I am fairly well versed on the operation
> > of
> > the prop governor and constant speed prop as well as knowing how the M14
> > works. The question is do you know how they work and if you do, why
> > didn't
> > you contribute to the discussion? Or are you just lurking out there
> > looking
> > to criticize and belittle those who may really be knowledgeable and do
> > challenge responses?
> >
> > So the question to you then is, if your engine quits and you move the
prop
> > control to full coarse pitch, will the blades move to full coarse pitch?
> > What rpm does your engine have to windmill at to insure a fully
> > functioning
> > prop governor? If you don't know that answer, I challenge you to run
the
> > test I suggested to Joe on the ground.
> > Dennis
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Yak-List: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine out
> >
> >
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
> > <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
> >>
> >> Come on guys go down to the library or your favorite aviation book
store
> > and get the class book for A&Ps and find out how a prop governor and
> > constant speed prop works. Also look through the rest of the book and
> > find
> > out how your engine works, would be a great benefit to you.
> >>
> >> Frank
> >> CJ6-A N23021
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: a NEW subject |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Steve,
Sorry to hear about you but glad you are back up flying. Not sure what I would
do if I did not have flying as an escape.
The Russians and even us Americans publish in our handbooks land straight ahead
with engine failure on TO.
I got lucky and had exceeded the altitude along with just having turned on crosswind.
But this hold the nose up until the prop stops turning to save the engine
is not going to happen with me. Now I know the question was, you are at 10000ft
when it happens is a little different senario. Still, I'll manage the EP
by first flying the airplane! If my but is still in one piece, I can always by
another engine.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Sharon Heugh <rastus@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: a NEW subject
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Sharon Heugh" <rastus@mweb.co.za>
Hi Doc
Glad you are still with us! I've been there too! I didn't get off as
lightly as you, but am fortunately back in the saddle!
Steve
Steve & Sharon Heugh
rastus@mweb.co.za
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: a NEW subject
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Shack!
> I'm landing straight ahead. For me it is a moot point. All others can do
> the mental masterbation about what if's. When its in the weeds, no
> airspeed, and I can find a place straight ahead. I'm opting for gear up
> slide!
> Done been down the windmill ain't makin' thrusties trail once. Luckly it
> happened at 500 ft on crosswind and less than 1/4 mi for departure. The
> ole glider skills played heavily in that senario. A YAK's glide ratio aint
> that of a Piper Archer! Oh Well, lived to aviate another day and a
> Piper/Lycoming AD got named after me. What a claim to fame. One I would
> have prefered to have read about not experienced first hand.
> The bottom line is ... Fly the airplane all the way to the ground! They
> are making new YAK's everyday. The last time I checked with my friends in
> the fertility world, cloning just has not gotten to the instant
> replacement of parts or bodies phase yet.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve & Sharon Heugh <rastus@mweb.co.za>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: a NEW subject
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Sharon Heugh" <rastus@mweb.co.za>
>
> I think the Russians are VERY smart in advising the pilot to land straight
> ahead. At the moment your engine quits at 800'agl, your position over the
> ground is where you MAY be after a 180 deg turn and on the deck. Your
> Rate
> of descent is going to be very high at this point, considering the 45 AOB
> descending turn. Considering a turn-back below 1000' is insane. I suspect
> that the Russians propose landing straight ahead after take off, after
> years
> of painful experience. Why re-invent the wheel?
>
> Judder - judder - stall - flick - spin - Splat - Slow march........
>
> Rather be sure your insurance is up to date and land straight ahead.
> Surviving a prang is all about pranging under control. Be the master of
> your
> own destiny!
>
> :-) Happy landings(-:
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: a NEW subject
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Your numbers were pretty much on. The answer is: you end up over the
>> numbers with about 8 -10 feet to spare. Not a lot of wiggle room, but
>> servivable. At 150 km/h (93 kt/h) and 45 deg. bank (best angle of bank
>> for
>> gliding turns), it takes 700 ft +/- 10 ft to hack a turn of 180 degrees.
>> 143km/h (88Kt/h) will get the greatest distance without wind. But
>> turning,
>> the 150km/hr gives the least altitude loss. The glide ratio of the
>> YAK-52
>> clean is 7:1. Dirty it is 5:1. I prefer using 160 km/h for my glide speed
>> though. Speed is life. Smash can always be converted to altitude and
>> altitude can always be converted to speed. But if all you have is air
>> above you and you are out of airspeed, you are going to have a bad day.
>> The Russian flight manual says if engine failure before first turn at
>> takeoff:
>> establish best glide speed ( 150 KPH) and trim to that.
>> retract gear
>> operate fuel cut-off (move reward)
>> switch off mags, battery, and ignition
>> open cockpit
>> land striaght ahead if posible, otherwise, make shallow turns
>> Doc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dave Marsh <swampy@videotron.ca>
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: a NEW subject
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Dave Marsh <swampy@videotron.ca>
>>
>> Roger,
>>
>> Ah yes. See your point. Yes, you need to try this in YOUR plane at YOUR
>> airfield. When you're comfortable, try it at another airfield and note
>> how
>> less comfortable that is! However, newbies will still benefit from advice
>> on
>> what numbers to aim for. There's a difference between getting experience
>> and
>> being your own test pilot....
>>
>> So; anyone else brave enough to suggest an answer to Dennis's question?
>> It's
>> better to talk about this than leave everybody to do their own thing.
>>
>> Dave.
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Shack! That's why you need to climb up to 5000', pull the throttle back
>> to
>> idle, and see what it takes to turn the YAK-52 180 deg.s at 45 deg.s of
>> bank. Then try a full 360. You will lose more than you thought. Try it at
>> full fuel load, at 1/2 and at 20 lt.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Hi Dennis
We are trying to contact you but your e-mail doesn't seem to work.
Grateful if you could contact us.
Thanks
Richard Goode
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Mob: +44 (0) 7768 610389
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
dangerous content by the http://www.anti84787.com
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dennis Savarese |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
Richard,
Nice to hear from you. My new email address is dsavarese@elmore.rr.com
Enjoy your day.
Best wishes,
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-2141 office
334-546-8182 cell
www.yak-52.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Dennis Savarese
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Goode"
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
>
> Hi Dennis
>
> We are trying to contact you but your e-mail doesn't seem to work.
>
> Grateful if you could contact us.
>
> Thanks
> Richard Goode
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Herefordshire
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
> Mob: +44 (0) 7768 610389
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
> www.russianaeros.com
>
> dangerous content by the http://www.anti84787.com
> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Power loss emergencies |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Response to engine/prop control in an emergency:
1. Unless the engine is STOPPED, the oil pressure will continue
to be available. The oil pump is gear driven, not POWER driven. As
long as the engine is turning over, whether by power or windmilling, you
will have oil pressure. Therefore prop control.
2. Unless you have a full-feathering prop, you will have a HECK
of a time getting the prop to stop. That windmill is very powerful, and
it will keep windmilling unless you get really slow, really nose-high.
I have taught prop-stopped simulated emergency full landings-to-a-stop
for years, and one of the hardest things to do is simply getting the
prop to stop.
You CERTAINLY wouldn't want to take the time AND ALTITUDE it
would take to get the prop to stop in a real emergency. And I have had
nine engine failures, three full forced landings off-airport. This
isn't theory.
3. Unless you have internal engine damage that will bind up the
engine, (as one of the respondents said), you will have a windmilling
engine, therefore oil pressure, and therefore don't need to worry about
engine damage. And if you do, then you aren't going to be worrying about
controlling the prop! It will be stopped anyway.
To close: If you have a power failure, pull that prop to full
coarse, and then prepare for landing. It IS that simple. The only
addendum I would add is to make a decision early about gear up or down.
Unless the field is a landing strip, (and many, many are, they just
aren't designated as airports), you will PROBABLY be better off gear up.
Several years ago, an inexperienced CFI put a beautiful new
Beechcraft Bonanza into a nice plowed field after using the wrong fuel
tank. Put the gear down, and that nice, big, soft, flat field promptly
tore the gear off. Otherwise, all they would have had to do is pick the
plane up, put a new prop on it, and fly it home.
Lee Taylor
Message 7
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| Subject: | Chinese Emblem Stencil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Does anyone have the stencils for the Chinese Side and wing Emblems,
or better yet, the artwork in electronic format so I may have my own
made?
Thanks
Ernie
Message 8
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| Subject: | Let's separate the issues at hand. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Lee,
First, it seems that my question has been "muddled" in with the prop
feathering issue now at hand. Second it ONLY applied to the 285 hp engine,
which I was very careful to specify several times. Third, I also set up the
scenario that you were at 10K and time was not a problem, and last but far
from least the 285 unlike the M14B or P, does in fact have a shared drive
that if sheared like in Danny's case, will end it's ability to deliver oil
to the engine.
If in fact you cannot stop the engine from wind milling my point is lost and
we are, as you suggest destined to trash the (285 hp) engine on the way down
anyway. I guess some brave soul needs to go up and shut his engine down and
give it a try. Not that I think mine would not restart, but I tend to not
want to tempt fate on matters such as this.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: Yak-List: Power loss emergencies
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Response to engine/prop control in an emergency:
1. Unless the engine is STOPPED, the oil pressure will continue
to be available. The oil pump is gear driven, not POWER driven. As
long as the engine is turning over, whether by power or windmilling, you
will have oil pressure. Therefore prop control.
2. Unless you have a full-feathering prop, you will have a HECK
of a time getting the prop to stop. That windmill is very powerful, and
it will keep windmilling unless you get really slow, really nose-high.
I have taught prop-stopped simulated emergency full landings-to-a-stop
for years, and one of the hardest things to do is simply getting the
prop to stop.
You CERTAINLY wouldn't want to take the time AND ALTITUDE it
would take to get the prop to stop in a real emergency. And I have had
nine engine failures, three full forced landings off-airport. This
isn't theory.
3. Unless you have internal engine damage that will bind up the
engine, (as one of the respondents said), you will have a windmilling
engine, therefore oil pressure, and therefore don't need to worry about
engine damage. And if you do, then you aren't going to be worrying about
controlling the prop! It will be stopped anyway.
To close: If you have a power failure, pull that prop to full
coarse, and then prepare for landing. It IS that simple. The only
addendum I would add is to make a decision early about gear up or down.
Unless the field is a landing strip, (and many, many are, they just
aren't designated as airports), you will PROBABLY be better off gear up.
Several years ago, an inexperienced CFI put a beautiful new
Beechcraft Bonanza into a nice plowed field after using the wrong fuel
tank. Put the gear down, and that nice, big, soft, flat field promptly
tore the gear off. Otherwise, all they would have had to do is pick the
plane up, put a new prop on it, and fly it home.
Lee Taylor
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese Emblem Stencil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com
Ernie,
Contact Sal at 831-663-4393. He operates a sign shop near Monterey and has
produced Chinese star and bar vinyl decals for my CJ and several of Jim Selby's.
Also, if you're interested in the appropriate Chinese characters for all of
your access panels, Jeff Linebaugh has the name of the shop in FL that
produced his and mine. Brain lock prevents me from remembering their name. If
he
can't remember, I have the name at my hangar and can get it for you on Friday.
Finally, if you have a burning need, (I did), to have your name translated
into Chinese characters for your canopy rail, I've got a sign shop in San
Francisco's Chinatown that can accommodate you. ...Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Mill Valley, CA
Nanchang CJ-6A
N221YK
415-307-2405
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese Emblem Stencil |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Great Thanks,
I searched the archives and found the thread where Jeff mentions the
shop. I was hoping to get the artwork, since I have a local shop that
can create the stencils. I want to paint the emblem on, and not do
vinyl.
Ernie
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:05:31 EST, ByronMFox@aol.com <ByronMFox@aol.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com
>
> Ernie,
>
> Contact Sal at 831-663-4393. He operates a sign shop near Monterey and has
> produced Chinese star and bar vinyl decals for my CJ and several of Jim Selby's.
> Also, if you're interested in the appropriate Chinese characters for all of
> your access panels, Jeff Linebaugh has the name of the shop in FL that
> produced his and mine. Brain lock prevents me from remembering their name.
If he
> can't remember, I have the name at my hangar and can get it for you on Friday.
> Finally, if you have a burning need, (I did), to have your name translated
> into Chinese characters for your canopy rail, I've got a sign shop in San
> Francisco's Chinatown that can accommodate you. ...Blitz
>
> Byron M. Fox
> Mill Valley, CA
> Nanchang CJ-6A
> N221YK
> 415-307-2405
>
>
>
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Sun 'n Funners,
We are 1 month and counting. I need a head count, Confirmed
and Probables: CHECK IN NOW off list! Please advise of
estimated arrival date also.
The Hotel of choice is the Quality Inn: 813-762-2000, the
room rate depends upon how many rooms are rented under the
agreement I have for the RPA. Be sure and mention "RedStar
Pilots" when making a res. Backup is the Best Western but
with a higher price. At this time I have a "whole bunch" of
rooms but I must give 'em up if they are not reserved soon.
Car Rentals: ON FIELD (ZPH) during SNF, let me know how many
want cars, maybe I can get a better rate locally, I'll try
for a van also through Jomax, their Sunday-Sunday rate for a
compact is $215.11 with all taxes. Those whom have rented at
LAL know that the rate is $79.99/day + TX for comparison.
Enterprise: 813-788-4600
Avis: 727-841-7880
Jomax: 813-788-5539
As always, FLIGHTSUITS and Parachutes are mandatory for
Formation flight, No Debate!
Craig Payne
Message 12
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| Subject: | Let's separate the issues at hand. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
I guess I'm stupid... and there are those on the list that would reply: "Are
you just now realizing that?" Anyway.....
I have on numerous occasions tried to stop the prop on my YAK-50 equipped
with the standard M-14P engine and 2 bladed VPeriod prop. It is a rather
hard thing to do. I have pulled the prop all the way back, held the
aircraft right at the edge of a stall, etc., etc. It is amazing how much
that prop wants to just keep on spinning. It is MUCH easier to stop the
prop on a T-34 than on my YAK-50. I suppose not having FLAPS becomes an
issue too. Anyway, I did finally manage to do it after holding the aircraft
in the buffet for a pretty long time. I can not tell you what "speed" that
happened at... I was too busy tap dancing on the rudders to keep from
entering a spin. When I say the aircraft was in a stall, that is putting it
mildly. I had the stick almost into my lap.
Once stopped, it was VERY easy to push the nose over just a little and
POOF... it was spinning again. I did NOT have to touch the starter button.
In fact, once stopped, it was VERY hard to keep that sucker from starting to
spin again.
I suspect it might be easier in a 52 with flaps down, but that is a guess.
The BEST way to do it, (at least the most spectacular) is how Hubie Tolson
does in his Sukhoi-26. Bring it up into a vertical line, kill the engine
and the prop will DEFINITELY stop on the way up. Followed by a tail slide
with the prop STOPPED. Followed by a push to inverted and a then a
prolonged inverted glide with the prop stopped. Anyone who has seen Hubie
Tolson fly will know that this is one of his trade-mark Unlimited Free
maneuvers. I have yet to try it. :-) Hubie flies with a PF motor and 3
blade MT thick root prop.
Anyway you look at it, stopping the prop is not quite as easy to do as one
might think.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Sapp [mailto:rvfltd@televar.com]
Subject: Yak-List: Let's separate the issues at hand.
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Lee,
First, it seems that my question has been "muddled" in with the prop
feathering issue now at hand. Second it ONLY applied to the 285 hp engine,
which I was very careful to specify several times. Third, I also set up the
scenario that you were at 10K and time was not a problem, and last but far
from least the 285 unlike the M14B or P, does in fact have a shared drive
that if sheared like in Danny's case, will end it's ability to deliver oil
to the engine.
If in fact you cannot stop the engine from wind milling my point is lost and
we are, as you suggest destined to trash the (285 hp) engine on the way down
anyway. I guess some brave soul needs to go up and shut his engine down and
give it a try. Not that I think mine would not restart, but I tend to not
want to tempt fate on matters such as this.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Message 13
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| Subject: | SF Bay Area Yaks |
--> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com
Are you guys aware=A0of the "Yak Attack" event being held at the Hiller Air
Museum at the San Carlos airport on April 23. 2005? I'll find out more. ...Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Mill Valley, CA
Nanchang CJ-6A
N221YK
415-307-2405
Message 14
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| Subject: | Leeward Mini Clinic |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Craig, Pappy,
Are you guys still planning on coming up/down next weekend? I need to
know whether to call this thing off or not. I few people said they
were interested and then I never heard back again...Drew? Jeff?
My plane is out of action, but 2 other CJ's on the field are rarin to go.
Ernie
Message 15
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| Subject: | Aerobatic Box Moratorium??? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Has anybody heard of a moratorium on aerobatic boxes????? I have been
informed that our box has not been renewed due to this moratorium.
Any info would be appreciated.
Ernie
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic Box Moratorium??? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Ernie;
There is a lot of crap going on now in the area of aerobatic boxes.
Noise and environmental impact studys needed... Mine was declined last
year. Lisa Popp with the EAA is working on getting a (better?) working
relationship with the FAA. New people at the top of FAA now so a
learning curve also for them.
Contact Lisa at lpopp@eaa.org she is great and will give you the "War
and Peace" version of what all is going on. I met with her and Gerry
Molidor at last AirVenture for a couple of hours...what a mess.
But, yes some kinda moritorium...
Respectfully, Ricky B
>>> erniel29@gmail.com 3/9/2005 4:47:20 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Has anybody heard of a moratorium on aerobatic boxes????? I have been
informed that our box has not been renewed due to this moratorium.
Any info would be appreciated.
Ernie
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic Box Moratorium??? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Can I suggest doing what I do here in central Al. when I'm going to be doing acro
north of 08A (Wetumpka).
Since we do not have a designated acro box, I simplly call up the local ATC and
request a block altitude between the 180 to 110 radial off MGM at 24 dme. I usually
request 1500 to 3000 ft block. They have not denied me yet. I also monitor
them on app. When they call traffic at 2000, 3 oclock, 2 mi, and I'm at 3000
on my back, the fangs come out. Hum, a high to low intercept with offset
already built in!
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Basiliere <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic Box Moratorium???
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR@ci.boulder.co.us>
Ernie;
There is a lot of crap going on now in the area of aerobatic boxes.
Noise and environmental impact studys needed... Mine was declined last
year. Lisa Popp with the EAA is working on getting a (better?) working
relationship with the FAA. New people at the top of FAA now so a
learning curve also for them.
Contact Lisa at lpopp@eaa.org she is great and will give you the "War
and Peace" version of what all is going on. I met with her and Gerry
Molidor at last AirVenture for a couple of hours...what a mess.
But, yes some kinda moritorium...
Respectfully, Ricky B
>>> erniel29@gmail.com 3/9/2005 4:47:20 PM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Has anybody heard of a moratorium on aerobatic boxes????? I have been
informed that our box has not been renewed due to this moratorium.
Any info would be appreciated.
Ernie
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Leeward Mini Clinic |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 3/9/2005 6:39:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
erniel29@gmail.com writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Craig, Pappy,
Are you guys still planning on coming up/down next weekend? I need to
know whether to call this thing off or not. I few people said they
were interested and then I never heard back again...Drew? Jeff?
My plane is out of action, but 2 other CJ's on the field are rarin to go.
Ernie
Ah yes! With all the free beer and food you're offering, sure! :-/
Pappy
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: SF Bay Area Yaks |
--> Yak-List message posted by: YakL1@aol.com
Blitz:
No...When, Where, etc.....?
John
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Power loss emergencies |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
Lee,
I do not disagree with your response, in concept. But in reality, you will
not get enough oil pressure moving through the prop governor with the prop
windmilling. As I said in a previous post on the subject, prove it to
yourself on the ground with the engine running at 40% RPM. See if you can
get the prop blades to move to coarse pitch.
If the prop governor can not move the oil out of the prop hub piston to
enable the counter weights to take over, there will be no movement to coarse
pitch. And the only way the prop governor moves the oil in and out is
dependant upon the rpm of the engine. Thus the test I suggested. It
doesn't matter whether the forward motion of the airplane through the air is
moving the prop (windmilling) or whether the engine is under its own power.
If the prop blades won't go to coarse pitch at 40% rpm, then I seriously
doubt they will with the prop windmilling even if it could achieve 40%. And
that means it will also be producing oil pressure just like it does when the
engine is running.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Power loss emergencies
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@comcast.net>
>
> Response to engine/prop control in an emergency:
>
> 1. Unless the engine is STOPPED, the oil pressure will continue
> to be available. The oil pump is gear driven, not POWER driven. As
> long as the engine is turning over, whether by power or windmilling, you
> will have oil pressure. Therefore prop control.
>
> 2. Unless you have a full-feathering prop, you will have a HECK
> of a time getting the prop to stop. That windmill is very powerful, and
> it will keep windmilling unless you get really slow, really nose-high.
> I have taught prop-stopped simulated emergency full landings-to-a-stop
> for years, and one of the hardest things to do is simply getting the
> prop to stop.
> You CERTAINLY wouldn't want to take the time AND ALTITUDE it
> would take to get the prop to stop in a real emergency. And I have had
> nine engine failures, three full forced landings off-airport. This
> isn't theory.
>
> 3. Unless you have internal engine damage that will bind up the
> engine, (as one of the respondents said), you will have a windmilling
> engine, therefore oil pressure, and therefore don't need to worry about
> engine damage. And if you do, then you aren't going to be worrying about
> controlling the prop! It will be stopped anyway.
>
> To close: If you have a power failure, pull that prop to full
> coarse, and then prepare for landing. It IS that simple. The only
> addendum I would add is to make a decision early about gear up or down.
> Unless the field is a landing strip, (and many, many are, they just
> aren't designated as airports), you will PROBABLY be better off gear up.
>
> Several years ago, an inexperienced CFI put a beautiful new
> Beechcraft Bonanza into a nice plowed field after using the wrong fuel
> tank. Put the gear down, and that nice, big, soft, flat field promptly
> tore the gear off. Otherwise, all they would have had to do is pick the
> plane up, put a new prop on it, and fly it home.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re:yak-list:285 hp engine shutdown |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Someone made the comment that if you lost the oil pump drive (also fuel pump) and
you had a prelube pump setup you could save the engine. I have also thought
of this idea but there is one drawback. Since the engine oil pressure pump
is no longer turning neither is the scavenge pump so eventually you will wind
up with 17 liters of oil in the engine and the potential for a great hydraulic
lock. I guess that we are had any way we go.
Frank
CJ6-A N23021
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re:yak-list:285 hp engine shutdown |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
I never, ever thought of that Frank.
Thanks
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re:yak-list:285 hp engine shutdown
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Stelwagon"
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>
> Someone made the comment that if you lost the oil pump drive (also fuel
pump) and you had a prelube pump setup you could save the engine. I have
also thought of this idea but there is one drawback. Since the engine oil
pressure pump is no longer turning neither is the scavenge pump so
eventually you will wind up with 17 liters of oil in the engine and the
potential for a great hydraulic lock. I guess that we are had any way we
go.
>
> Frank
> CJ6-A N23021
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Leeward Mini-clinic |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cpayne@joimail.com" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Free Beer and Food? I'm in. Keep the pilot lounge open for
me. Jim and I will work these guys until they send us
packing just so they can get a break :
)
Craig Payne
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 03/05/05 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cj6sly@cs.com
In a message dated 3/6/2005 1:00:01 AM Mountain Standard Time,
yak-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
> I've been working on a pack of emergency supplies that would fit in with
> the parachute.,
> but haven't gotten very far.
>
> Tj
>
TJ,
There's a website that concerns aviation survival products which I can not
remember right now. Something to do with survival and aviation might be a good
place to start on google. At any rate, you can purchase a tactical vest with
many pockets for about 20 bucks from Sportsman's Warehouse that will fit
underneath your parachute harness. Voila, a survival kit that will stay with you
if
you have to shell out over the hostile terrain that you and I fly over. I have
an old Navy SV-2 vest I fly cross-country with. In it I have signal mirrors,
fire starters, tubing, water, a few energy bars, knives, space blanket, signal
flares etc etc etc. I'll show it to you when we're at Red Star. a simple kit
that will give you the tools to stay alive for an unplanned camping trip. And
don't forget your chute....which is your sleeping bag, tent and backpack.
Skip
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 03/05/05 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cj6sly@cs.com
In a message dated 3/6/2005 1:00:01 AM Mountain Standard Time,
yak-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
>
> Gents,
> This line of talk brings up another question: Your are cruising along at
> say 10,000 feet and your mighty 285 hp steed simply quits, you cannot keep
> the engine running with the 20 plus year old wobble pump. You have already
> tried everything on the emergency check list to get it lit off again and
> nothing has worked, you have just consigned yourself to the fact that a dead
> stick landing is now a fact of life. On the bright side there are lots of
> places to land, so that's not a major problem at this point in time because
> you have lots of altitude and landing options. What should be the next thing
> you do as quickly as possible? and why.
>
Well, how about the four S's: Speed, Spot, Start, Stop.
Speed- 150 KPH: trim for this
Spot-Pick your landing spot sacrificing smoothness for closeness and size.
Don't change your mind once you've slected it. (And remember, TJ might whine a
little but he'd much rather hand a check for a munched airframe to a live pilot
than recover a body from a too tight landing area).
Start- Check fuel, wobble the piss out of it, change MAGS, hig the starter
button, prime it, whatever you can think to do.
Stop- Well, if it's dead, then shut it off, Fuel Selector- off, switches off,
etc.
Somewhere in here you should be talking (121.5) and sqwaking (7700). Save
your switches to the off to the last minute for this. Before touchdown canopy
open, belts tight and remember what Bob Hoover says: Fly it all the way through
the crash until it stops.
Sly
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 03/06/05 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cj6sly@cs.com
In a message dated 3/7/2005 2:19:53 AM Mountain Standard Time,
yak-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
>
> I've approached this from the scenario that has me under canopy and the
> airplane a smoking hole somewhere else, hopefully. What works for me is a
> fly
>
> fishing vest with all my survival gear in it. It's mostly mesh
> (breathable),
> big pockets all over the place, and short like a waist coat so it doesn't
> interfere with the lap belts. My gear is basically what I had when I was
> flying
> in
> the Navy plus a few things. Here's what I bring along... Cell phone, an
> old
> Garmin 90 GPS (it's tiny), pencil flares, smoke/flare, mirror, whistle,
> survival mylar blanket, and a 1/2 pt canteen. Also if I have the time I can
> take
> my
> VHF handheld from my Nav bag and I have a spot for it, but it's too bulky to
>
> fly with it on me. The mesh vest allows me to tie lanyards to all the
> equipment so I won't drop it from 5000 feet. The big back pocket is perfect
> for
> the
> blanket and any charts/paperwork you might want with you. Now I'll admit
> that
>
> for local hops I don't always wear this except for the cell phone. But
> remember you may not be able to walk out of the forrest and they may have to
> see
> or
> hear you. Also an FYI regarding cell phones, the capability to triangulate
> your position from cell towers exists, if the rescuers have access to the
> equipment.
> This is what I have done for my personal safety so critique away, I
> welcome
> the input ....... I think
>
> Mark
>
>
Excellent ideas!
Skip
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Power loss emergencies |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Hi Dennis;
Afraid I have to differ with you on this one. The governor cannot suck oil
from the propellor under any circumstance. The "governor" (more accurately
the prop control unit) contains two principal components
1. A gear type oil boost pump supplied with oil under engine oil pump
pressure, boosted to 130 to 200 psi.(don't know spec for Russian & Chinese
units - lets say 150 psi) Pressure controlled by integral relief valve and
supplied through one outlet port to the pilot valve bore.
2. A fly-weight type governor assembly consisting of the following major
parts: Pilot valve (a spool type mounted in the bore of the gear pump drive
shaft), Fly-weight cup assembly driven by the pump drive shaft, Pilot valve
bearing to transfer fly weight motion to axial movement of the pilot valve,
A "speeder" spring, A rack and pinion control assembly to transmit speeder
spring loading (RPM) from the cockpit.
In this very basic PCU there is only one control land on the pilot valve and
only one passage from the pilot valve bore to the propellor. Boost pressure
oil is supplied to the pilot valve bore above the control land at all times.
Consider first the "on speed" condition, where the RPM is as set by the
speeder spring load and there is no demand from the fly-weights for any
change. In this case the control land is blocking the passage so no blade
movement takes place. Oil above the land is circulated by the relief valve
to the pump inlet.
In the "under speed" condition the speeder spring load exceeds the fly
weight centrifugal load and the pilot valve is forced downward opening the
propellor passage to oil pressure above the control land thereby moving the
blades toward fine pitch.
In the "over speed" condition the flyweight centrifugal load exceeds the
pre-set speeder spring load and moves the pilot valve upward opening the
propellor passage to the drain cavity in the drive shaft and oil is forced
out of the prop by blade counter weight action.
As you can see there is no possibility of the governor sucking oil from the
prop.
There is one other governor operating condition to consider and it is the
one that has been the subject of the recent chatter. That is POSITIVE coarse
pitch or Artificial Overspeed. The pilot valve has an upper extension
through the rack with an adjustable stop inside the rack. Under normal
constant speed operation this part moves up and down with the pilot valve
relative to the stationary rack. When the control is moved to full coarse
pitch and the speeder spring is unloaded the rack contacts the stop directly
lifting the pilot valve to fully open the prop passage to drain. The oil
flow is as described in over speed.
In this condition the governor is out of the constant speed range and we
have a high pitch, fixed pitch, propellor. It is no where near feathered but
will create less drag than otherwise.
You may wonder why the high pitch blade angle is not higher for even less
drag. Well, imagine a situation where a failure has caused a serious leak of
propellor oil. The windshield turns black and you sense a drop in RPM. The
prop has just gone to high pitch by counterweight action, the governor
senses underspeed and is desperately delivering oil at 150 psi to your
windshield. Not for long - you don't have that much oil.
The handle goes to POSITIVE Coarse right now. The bleeding stops. The coarse
pitch blade angle has been selected to allow continued flight without over
boosting and a safe landing.
This is an unlikely occurence for our aircraft but not impossible. It was,
and still is, a real concern for early Hartzell operators if they fail to
heed the AWD replacement of pitch change diaphragms.
Cheers;
Walt
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> <DSAVARESE@ELMORE.RR.COM>
>
> Lee,
> I do not disagree with your response, in concept. But in reality, you
> will
> not get enough oil pressure moving through the prop governor with the prop
> windmilling. As I said in a previous post on the subject, prove it to
> yourself on the ground with the engine running at 40% RPM. See if you can
> get the prop blades to move to coarse pitch.
>
> If the prop governor can not move the oil out of the prop hub piston to
> enable the counter weights to take over, there will be no movement to
> coarse
> pitch. And the only way the prop governor moves the oil in and out is
> dependant upon the rpm of the engine. Thus the test I suggested. It
> doesn't matter whether the forward motion of the airplane through the air
> is
> moving the prop (windmilling) or whether the engine is under its own
> power.
> If the prop blades won't go to coarse pitch at 40% rpm, then I seriously
> doubt they will with the prop windmilling even if it could achieve 40%.
> And
> that means it will also be producing oil pressure just like it does when
> the
> engine is running.
> Dennis
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