Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Jammed Rudder Pedals (Bryan Coppersmith)
2. 08:31 AM - Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals (Roger Doc Kemp)
3. 02:29 PM - Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals (Brian Lloyd)
4. 06:16 PM - Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals (Roger Doc Kemp)
5. 07:42 PM - Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals (Brian Lloyd)
6. 08:07 PM - S&F (cjpilot710@aol.com)
7. 08:20 PM - Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals (cjpilot710@aol.com)
8. 09:33 PM - [Please Read] Matronics Email Server Upgrade Complete! (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Jammed Rudder Pedals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bryan Coppersmith <bryan@yaknz.com>
WARNING!
On first solo after type rating the gear knob fell off and
jammed the rudder pedals. Could have been really nasty
as the pilot ha NO RIGHT rudder on a touch and go. Did
a marvelous job and managed to flick the knob out with
his toe at about 1000' AGL.
________________
Bryan Coppersmith
Tel: 647 8649020
Fax: 647 8649087
________________
Message 2
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| Subject: | Jammed Rudder Pedals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
First Question: If you are already on the ground with an identified
controllability problem, why do a touch and go?
Running out of Runway, to hot on touchdown, running off the right side of
the runway, or just felt the problem could be better managed in the air? If
the answer is yes to any of the above...please rethink your EP management.
What about differential breaking? What about stopping straight ahead? In an
A/C accident, it was a series of little incidents that lead to the "big"
accident.
Remember the three worst things to have in aviation:
Runway behind you,
Altitude above you, and
Fuel in the fuel truck on the ramp below you.
Guess sometimes you are just lucky. But, the rather be lucky than good is
only for the "big house" on Friday night telling there I was stories.
Sorry, do not mean to throw a wet towel but this could have been a lot
worse outcome and getting airborne again to handle the emergency is not
necessarily the best thing to do. Or did this happen right after the lift
off after the touch and go?
Check 6,
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Bryan Coppersmith <bryan@yaknz.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/17/2005 2:17:10 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Jammed Rudder Pedals
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Bryan Coppersmith <bryan@yaknz.com>
>
> WARNING!
> On first solo after type rating the gear knob fell off and
> jammed the rudder pedals. Could have been really nasty
> as the pilot ha NO RIGHT rudder on a touch and go. Did
> a marvelous job and managed to flick the knob out with
> his toe at about 1000' AGL.
> ________________
> Bryan Coppersmith
> Tel: 647 8649020
> Fax: 647 8649087
> ________________
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Doc Kemp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> First Question: If you are already on the ground with an identified
> controllability problem, why do a touch and go?
Doc:
In general I would agree with you but neither of us were in the cockpit at the
time. With jammed rudder pedals he would have no ground steering and no
differential braking, therefore he had no ground controllability. Since the
knob came off he may have been 100% aware of what the problem was and just
needed 10 seconds to stick his head under the panel to fix the problem,
something he couldn't do while rolling on the ground.
One other thing to consider: based on the outcome I would have to say that his
decisions were sound as they resulted in a safe termination of the flight with
no damage to either person or property.
It is easy to be a Monday-morning quarterback. Less so to be calling the shots
when you're four points down on your own 20 with 30 seconds left in the 4th
quarter and it's 4th and 2.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian-yak@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Brian,
In flight safety we look at incidents/accidents and ways to prevent them
from happening. Admittedly it sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking,
but it is not. What really needs to be known in this incident is what was
the maintance history of that A/C, the details of the flight, details of
the airfield (length and width of the runway, wet,dry,grass,or paved), time
of day, atmosperic conditions (wind direction, cloud cover, ambient
temperature) and the physilogical state of the pilot. All of that
information would be ask in a military accident/incident investigation. The
findings would be discussed at the next squadron safety meeting and the
findings would be dessiminated through out the Air Force to the wings that
operate that airframe. Hopefully prevent the incident from happening again.
From the brief description given, it stated he had "No Right Rudder on
touch and go". That was percieved by myself to mean that he had left rudder
authority since the P factor from our prop requires left rudder input for
directional controll to takeoff, climbout, or at increased %RPM. With left
rudder input, you have directional (be it left) braking control. With
runway infront of you the plane can be stopped particularly if this plane
is like mine, it likes to weather vane with the wind to the right. The
direction is of course dependent on the prevailing winds.
Granted in an Emergency, you have seconds to make a decision. That should
be the reason that you review the CAPs and practice your EP's before you
fly. Not trying to get out the handbook and review them in the middle of
the emergency.
Luckily this ended well. I personally would not commit to accepting a Touch
and Go in an controllability emergency when I have the airplane on the
ground and can stop the aircraft on the runway, in the infield, or in the
overrun. I would rather walk away from a bent bird than spin one in due to
lack of rudder control. Taking it back in the air is not in my opinion
(based on 26 years of military flight safety experience) the thing to do.
There are alot of what if's in this incident and luckily this all ended
well. But there is alot to be learned from this. One is regular maintance
on our planes save lives. Assuming that the plane you just bought was taken
care of by Russian maintance standards can bite you. I have found the
samething with mine. I just found my right main uplink actuator was
corroded. I found it because I heard the link leaking air. This is on an
plane that is <100 hours out of ground up refurbishment. A good coat of
paint can hide alot and we are at a distinct disadvantage.
I am glad this incident ended well without injury or loss of life. That is
what an aircraft incident or accident investigation is designed to help
prevent by reviewing the facts of the incident and ways to prevent it from
happening again.
Thanks for the Headup and anymore information that can be shead on this
incident would be a help to all in the YAK community. I really am not
trying to be critical here.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/17/2005 4:26:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Jammed Rudder Pedals
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> Roger Doc Kemp wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> >
> > First Question: If you are already on the ground with an identified
> > controllability problem, why do a touch and go?
>
> Doc:
>
> In general I would agree with you but neither of us were in the cockpit
at the
> time. With jammed rudder pedals he would have no ground steering and no
> differential braking, therefore he had no ground controllability. Since
the
> knob came off he may have been 100% aware of what the problem was and
just
> needed 10 seconds to stick his head under the panel to fix the problem,
> something he couldn't do while rolling on the ground.
>
> One other thing to consider: based on the outcome I would have to say
that his
> decisions were sound as they resulted in a safe termination of the flight
with
> no damage to either person or property.
>
> It is easy to be a Monday-morning quarterback. Less so to be calling the
shots
> when you're four points down on your own 20 with 30 seconds left in the
4th
> quarter and it's 4th and 2.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brian-yak@lloyd.com Suite 201
> http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Doc Kemp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Brian,
> In flight safety we look at incidents/accidents and ways to prevent them
> from happening.
And how would you train for this type of emergency?
I stand by what I said. The pilot made a decision. It turned out to be the
right one as the flight terminated normally. With minimal directional control
on the ground a choice to remain on the ground would probably have resulted in
an incident or an accident.
And again I reiterate: neither you nor I were in the cockpit. I choose to give
the pilot the benefit of the doubt, especially in light of the successful
conclusion of the flight.
> Granted in an Emergency, you have seconds to make a decision. That should
> be the reason that you review the CAPs and practice your EP's before you
> fly. Not trying to get out the handbook and review them in the middle of
> the emergency.
Right, but that is not what we are talking about here. I worked with Jeff
Linbaugh to develop the checklists and procedures for the CJ6A. I have
transitioned several pilots into the CJ6A. Part of the training is
memorization of the EPs. But there isn't one for "the ball fell off the gear
handle and partially blocked rudder travel."
Do you know how much rudder travel he had? I don't. He did. He knew what he
could and could not do with the aircraft at that point. Based on that
information he made a decision. The successful completion of the flight
indicates that it was a *GOOD* decision.
I have a friend whose F-16 suffered massive failure of the turbine section in
flight. The normal EP is to punch out. He successfully dead-sticked the bird
on the field and saved the aircraft as well as avoided collateral damage from
an F-16 falling on someone. His decision turned out to be the right one based
on the information that was available to the pilot at the time and not
available when the procedures were developed. Ultimately we have a man in the
aircraft in order to make decisions.
> Luckily this ended well. I personally would not commit to accepting a Touch
> and Go in an controllability emergency when I have the airplane on the
> ground and can stop the aircraft on the runway, in the infield, or in the
> overrun. I would rather walk away from a bent bird than spin one in due to
> lack of rudder control. Taking it back in the air is not in my opinion
> (based on 26 years of military flight safety experience) the thing to do.
I don't know what I would do because I don't know what the issues are at that
moment. As I suggested, the pilot may have known what the problem was and may
have been able to control the aircraft in flight.
And once again, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He made a decision,
corrected the problem, and safely terminated the flight. That tells me that
his decision was good. Whether or not it was best may be debated but his
decision resulted in the safe termination of the flight.
> There are alot of what if's in this incident and luckily this all ended
> well. But there is alot to be learned from this. One is regular maintance
> on our planes save lives. Assuming that the plane you just bought was taken
> care of by Russian maintance standards can bite you.
That is true for any airplane.
> I am glad this incident ended well without injury or loss of life. That is
> what an aircraft incident or accident investigation is designed to help
> prevent by reviewing the facts of the incident and ways to prevent it from
> happening again.
Right. We all know that these aircraft are sensitive to FOD in the cockpit but
the ball falling off the gear handle is a freak situation. I don't see this
particular situation as one you can plan for other than lumping it into the
category of "crap in the cockpit jamming one or more controls." And that
problem is is merely a binary decision to stay in or get out depending on
residual controllability.
> Thanks for the Headup and anymore information that can be shead on this
> incident would be a help to all in the YAK community. I really am not
> trying to be critical here.
Sounds like it to me.
Slavish adherence to procedures untempered by situational and systems
awareness causes accidents too. Leave the pilot in the loop to make the final
judgment call.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian-yak@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
I am home and I am airshowed out. I flew over 15.48 hours of formation.
I've had way to many barbeque sausages and drank to many cokes. I've feasted
on fantastic steaks from "John's Steak House" and drank far to many free
drinks from fellow RPA ers.
ZPH was a good spot. Although away (maybe to far for some opinions) from
the regular EAA WB folks, Zephyrhills did not suffer high prices for hotels,
rental cars, fuel, or restaurant service found around LAL, and Winter Heaven.
A number of NATA folks complained to me of the very high hotel rates and fuel
(>$3.00/gal) down in Sebring for their clinic.
Our tiedowns were not really great (a bit out of the way and across an
active runway) but the FBO gave us self service pump prices out of the truck,
which were about a nickel cheaper than LAL. My total fuel bill was $257.00 for
a week flying. The service was good once the FBO got the hang of our comings
and goings.
Right now I need to hit the sack.
Pappy
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jammed Rudder Pedals |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 4/17/2005 10:42:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brian-yak@lloyd.com writes:
-->
Slavish adherence to procedures untempered by situational and systems
awareness causes accidents too. Leave the pilot in the loop to make the
final
judgment call.
--
Exactly. I can relate two very vivid incidences where crews were "following
emergency check list" which in one case lead to their demise and the very
near loss of a loaded 747 in another. In both cases the check lists and
procedures were blessed by the FAA and Boeing, plus taught as gospel by the
airline.
Pappy
Message 8
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| Subject: | [Please Read] Matronics Email Server Upgrade Complete! |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
9:24pm PDT 4/17/2005
Dear Listers,
The upgrade of the Matronics Email Server can be considered complete at
this time. All known issues related to the upgrade process have been
resolved and email services are running normal. The Nightly Digest
processing has not yet been tested and will wait for tonight's update.
If you encounter any odd behavior with respect to the Matronics Email
Server over the next few days, please contact me via email at
dralle@matronics.com or if that fails try dralle@speakeasy.net.
Thanks to everyone for being patient through this arduous process of a
major system upgrade!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
At 12:37 PM 4/16/2005 Saturday, Matt Dralle wrote:
>Dear Listers,
>
>I will be upgrading the Matronics Email Server this weekend. This
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>
>Hopefully there will be little actual downtime during the transition, but
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>
>Upgrading the Matronics Email Server operating system (from Redhat Linux
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>Matt Dralle
>Matronics Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
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