Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:32 AM - Re: Experimental (Craig Payne)
2. 07:11 AM - Re: Control Surface Modifications (Steve Dalton)
3. 08:08 AM - Re: Control Surface Modifications (Roger Doc Kemp)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: Control Surface Modifications (Herb Coussons)
5. 09:29 AM - YAK-52TW and Aerostar (Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd)
6. 05:01 PM - Re: Geo Baker Aviation? (cjpilot710@aol.com)
7. 07:31 PM - chinese radial (Jon Boede)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
"Imagine in general aviation having a pilot rebuild a major system on
a Cessna /Piper/Beech and have the factory walk up and say "I like
it, we'll start doing it that way"
Well, there's Cessna's adaptation of Steve Whitman's landing gear, the Beech Starship
and advanced composite construction ala Rutan, the scimicar prop, etc.
Recently it's all the low-cost electronics that will find it's way through the
certification process eventually.
YES! we are endless experimenters. If something doesn't work right, we change it.
If it works OK but could work better, we change it. No more certified spam
for me!
Some day, I'll marry my accumulated aeromods to one of those Arizona engines. Then
watch out!
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Control Surface Modifications |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve Dalton" <sdalton@goeaston.net>
>>>>From: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Control Surface Modifications
Again, I am not questioning anybody's engineering intregrity or
judgement. Certainly the Oil cooler under the chin did not work out.
Never knew why they moved it from the wing root but the the TD is having
it's own set of problems too. <<<<<
Hi Doc,
Just FYI from another old Viper driver. And with Brian's excellent
comments in mind.the more we talk about this stuff the better.here are
some "facts" about the TW.
Aerostar moved the oil cooler under the chin (ala the Yak-50) because
the wheel well replaced the fuel tank area in the wing and the AUX fuel
tank was placed where the oil cooler was previously located. IOW, they
had to move it.
For some reason, and I am NOT an engineer (just a Peelot), this location
works fine for some TW's and doesn't for others. For example, my TW
(the first one made) has absolutely no oil temp problems after debugging
the cooler door mechanism. In fact, flying in 95 degree heat my oil is
cooler than Herb is getting with the new location. It never reaches
150F until after landing.then up to 160F. (Herb's leading edge cooler
does look much better though.)
But on Ski's TW, he has problems with the oil getter too hot in a climb
and has to power back and let it cool before continuing to climb. Exact
same location, installation, debugging and cooler.go figure.
And in reference to the metal control surfaces some more TW facts. Some
have cracked, others have not. Mine have over 400 hours and have seen
240+ mph, and much acro flying with no problems. They look great.and
since I spoke up will probably crack tomorrow. :-)
I totally agree with Richard Goode: "My concern is of UNQUALIFIED people
adding weight onto control surfaces without appropriate analysis, and,
most importantly, without subsequent flutter tests. This is the
critical issue."
However, I have not heard of anyone having flutter problems. Aerostar
did no flight testing for flutter problems.I did it (unknowingly) for
them, along with all the spin testing! They wanted the plane at OSH in
2001 and had no time for flight testing before having to ship it.
Aerostar switched to a slightly thicker skin several years ago in an
attempt to stop the cracking. I do not know the result of this
switch.anybody else?
Cheers,
Steve Dalton
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Control Surface Modifications |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Brian,
Did not know you were an ol'Viper driver. Thanks for the info on the TW.
Admittedly, I am learning more about this airplane everyday and loving it
more as I go. Sure can not find anything as well built for the money in US
spam. We have to build an RV or a Glassair to get close. Then the avionics
becomes another issue. Have not seen a King ADI standup to 30 minutes of
acro without going TU, having to recage and then land to get the little
bugger to right itself. Give that Russian unit a minute of level flight and
she is back on the money. Just an example of the many things I respect
about these Aircraft. Tough as nails, fun to fly, safe (if flown within
limits) and look great.
Just glad we did not have to face them down in the Folga Gap.
Must be the reason most US acro aircraft do not even have ADI's. Aw Hell
probably started another pissing match with that. Who's got the best ADI.
My vote is on the Russian one in my YAK! Getting replacement ones for a
reasonable price is another problem. Ever notice that just about everything
in YAK replacement parts (magneto's, compressors, control cable sets, ect)
all cost around $1000? Hum, the parts guys must be talking to the handy men
around my house....$1200...Damned, I'm getting a deal aren't I? Saving $200
on YAK parts. Must mean I need to buy more YAK parts and work on the house
less to see such savings.
Enough rambling.
Thanks for the TW info.
Jump on Ski's wing and come down to KSEM 14 to 16 OCT. Can use another
experienced scheduler and tactician! We are up to 37! Hell we are looking
at spinning off to AUX fields to get in all the sorties. A SOF's nightmare.
Damn, gonna be just like being back in the squadron! Scheduling airspace,
mass breifs, hard show/step/start/TO/land times....
Fly safe and Vipers forever! (Problem is there is a new bad boy on the
block...Raptor! Man even Rope-A-Dope and Post Holes don't work with those
guys! Image going to the merge with total SA!)
Doc
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Control Surface Modifications |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Herb Coussons <drc@wscare.com>
Our TW came with the lighter skins on it - we had a small crack in
the rudder skin and at the first annual replaced with the heavier
skin - Now about 250 hours with some hard acro including tailslides
and no problems.
Herb
On Aug 6, 2005, at 9:10 AM, Steve Dalton wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve Dalton" <sdalton@goeaston.net>
>
>
>>>>> From: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>>>>
>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Control Surface Modifications
>
> Again, I am not questioning anybody's engineering intregrity or
> judgement. Certainly the Oil cooler under the chin did not work out.
> Never knew why they moved it from the wing root but the the TD is
> having
> it's own set of problems too. <<<<<
>
>
> Hi Doc,
>
> Just FYI from another old Viper driver. And with Brian's excellent
> comments in mind.the more we talk about this stuff the better.here are
> some "facts" about the TW.
>
> Aerostar moved the oil cooler under the chin (ala the Yak-50) because
> the wheel well replaced the fuel tank area in the wing and the AUX
> fuel
> tank was placed where the oil cooler was previously located. IOW,
> they
> had to move it.
>
> For some reason, and I am NOT an engineer (just a Peelot), this
> location
> works fine for some TW's and doesn't for others. For example, my TW
> (the first one made) has absolutely no oil temp problems after
> debugging
> the cooler door mechanism. In fact, flying in 95 degree heat my
> oil is
> cooler than Herb is getting with the new location. It never reaches
> 150F until after landing.then up to 160F. (Herb's leading edge cooler
> does look much better though.)
>
> But on Ski's TW, he has problems with the oil getter too hot in a
> climb
> and has to power back and let it cool before continuing to climb.
> Exact
> same location, installation, debugging and cooler.go figure.
>
> And in reference to the metal control surfaces some more TW facts.
> Some
> have cracked, others have not. Mine have over 400 hours and have seen
> 240+ mph, and much acro flying with no problems. They look great.and
> since I spoke up will probably crack tomorrow. :-)
>
> I totally agree with Richard Goode: "My concern is of UNQUALIFIED
> people
> adding weight onto control surfaces without appropriate analysis, and,
> most importantly, without subsequent flutter tests. This is the
> critical issue."
>
> However, I have not heard of anyone having flutter problems. Aerostar
> did no flight testing for flutter problems.I did it (unknowingly) for
> them, along with all the spin testing! They wanted the plane at
> OSH in
> 2001 and had no time for flight testing before having to ship it.
> Aerostar switched to a slightly thicker skin several years ago in an
> attempt to stop the cracking. I do not know the result of this
> switch.anybody else?
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Dalton
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | YAK-52TW and Aerostar |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd <mark.j@yakuk.com>
Gentlemen, gentlmen, its very easy to resolve these issure and get the truth without
guessing or speculating.
Very simple, Christian Dragoi of Aerostar, reads this list, as the marketing person
for the "west" its in his interest that he promotes the company in good
light.
May I respectfully suggest that a list of pertinant questions are drawn up by one
individual and then posted to the list.
For example, tail spring was raised, metal skins another, so I suggest these as
sample questions for those that are concerned.
1. What is the weight differance with metal skins v fabric? (MJ comment, the skins
are thin so to be as near to the weight as possible, i think it was 4oz heavier,
than fabric but thin means cracking, so what are the new skin sizes now
and weight differance.
2. Were flutter tests carried out. If so, what was the failure mode/ speed.
3. What spin trials were done before dispatching a/c? (mj, none as I know, they
asked me to do the spinning tests (approx 4 shipped by that time) I went 2 weeks
after the schedualed ready date and it was not, so no spinning done by myself.
I think there pilots were not experianced in aerobatics, hence one did a
snap roll at 300ft and did 1.5 turns and pulled into the deck. Whenever I went
there to accept a/c and fly to Lithuania for painting the test pilots always
wanted to fly with me as this was the only oppertunity they got to fly aeros.
Unlike Zlin in CZ aerostar did not own a spin recover parachute for any trials.
4. What aerodynamic changes made to justify an aft C of G moving to 31% from YBD
27% (yak 50 and 52 with clark Y wing)
5. what aft C of G trials were done to (spinning at max weight etc) to substanciate the rear C of G limits being moved from the YDB limit of 27% mac to 31% mac. (none as I know it was moved as a means of selling the a/c with a usable envelope- just-) http://www.yakuk.com/Yak52TW_W&B.xls schedual drawn up by steve dalton, one of the first TW owners.
6. then you can turn to the main u/c that had problems and the tail u/c mentioned
also.
These are some questions that I presume aerostar can substanciate the answers,
afterall they want you to buy the a/c. If they dont answer draw your own conclusions.
Richard and I both are aware of making false acusations, litigation can follow.
He is right to assume that Aerostar did all the nessasary justification, it would
be irrisponcible if they did not however after being at aerostar on numerous
occasions from way back in 1991 I have my own knowledge of the true and sumised
situation to which I am not going to report.
Richard is a valuable contributor to this list, the compertition he gives me in
the UK is very welcome, he does not make his living selling YAK's but like I
, he is an entusiastic aviator who saw a market for a type (firstly SU26 then
following me to the YAK 52) and put his passion first and spent many years cultivating
the business, traveling to piss poor places, enduring personal hardships
in the FSU, personal risk, poor food etc etc. To bring suberbly advanced a/c
to the GA market at silly prices .
Experimental is a good and bad certification, (BTW, Wilga is fully certifed to
FAR 23 like the AN2, just usa/faa does not like the "unfair" compertition so dont
recogise this) Experimental lets superior (to budget built spams) military
a/c fly in USA, thats good, the bad is when a "clown" uses a rose joing end in
the elivator control system in the bending plain resulting in a failure, the
pilot tried landing on trim for 30 mins till he ran out of fuel and had to jump.
Using the rose joint like this was idiotic in the extream but DIY experiments
are allowed under "experimental" Some YAK's are an EXperiment, ie directives
concerning structure not implimented. These are the guineepigs of the world
that help the wise man stay alive.
still reading? Have a nice day.
BR, mj
Best regards, Mark
www.yakuk.com
+44 (0)1767 651156 office +44 (0)7785 538 317 mobile
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Geo Baker Aviation? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
His number is 386-427-2727
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~panugant/downloads/chineese.wmv
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