Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:43 AM - carbon (Mark Jefferies)
2. 03:54 AM - Re: Sealing up exhaust joints (Craig Payne)
3. 06:06 AM - Re: carbon (Jim Bernier)
4. 07:26 AM - CO in cockpit (Tom Johnson)
5. 07:42 AM - Re: carbon (Brian Lloyd)
6. 11:04 AM - Re: CO in cockpit (owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com)
7. 11:41 AM - OSH 2005 (Ernest Martinez)
8. 11:52 AM - "A GuideTo Civilian Formation Aerobatics" (Ron Spencer)
9. 02:41 PM - Re: : Carbon monoxide poisoningCarbon monoxide poisoning (aaron marshall)
10. 05:52 PM - Formation Ramblings (Craig Payne)
11. 07:37 PM - YAK Exhaust Clamps (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
12. 07:43 PM - on to the bombers, (cjpilot710@aol.com)
13. 07:48 PM - Re: YAK Exhaust Clamps (A. Dennis Savarese)
14. 09:11 PM - Re: carbon (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies" <mark.j@yakuk.com>
It Hungary a guy got carbon poisoning and dies in the crash. About 4 years
ago now.
1. its very well know adding colour to the exhaust (show smoke) shows
the poisoning in the cockpit all the time.
2. take a look at this pic http://www.yakuk.com/img/Aeros.jpg smoke
over the wing, just like the CJ.
3. bottom of the a/c is high pressure/ top is low pressure
4. the MAIN route for smoke in cockpit is via the oil cooler>to inside
wing>to fuselage via wing spar holes, aileron rod holes, and other openings.
5. As you see from the pic, smoke will also be coming in via the
tailplane. (same on stearmen dusters)
6. Opening the cockpit to let the smoke out just lets 150% more in from
the bottom!!!
7. If you look at a Y52 head on you will see a longer exhaust right
side, this is a "small" fix the OEM had at the problem. The real fix is to
put another 6" on the ex as we do in the aerostars team.
8. On the Y50 its possible to reduce the problem by 80% by completely
sealing the oil cooler/ fuselage opening, sheet ally and silicone sealer
needed. Do the wing fairings also and its almost 100% smoke free.
9. We have a neat little fuse vent mod that could be adapted to take an
ox mask hose for fresh air breathing.
10. I have done many days with 8/9 hrs in the seat of a YAK, and am very
conscious of feeling under par at the end of it all. I do cockpit checks
slowly and TWICE prior to landing.
11. Lastly, don't use diesel smoke adding to the poisoning. That's
castnergenic .
Best regards, fly safe-Mark Jefferies
For YAK UK Ltd www.yakuk.com
Lt Gransden Airfield
Sandy, Beds
SG19 3BP
England.
Tel +44 (0)1767 651156.
Fax +44 (0)1767 651157
Mobile +44 (0)7785 538 317
Conditions and terms of business
Aircraft for sale
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sealing up exhaust joints |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
What seems to help with my Yak-18T exhaust system is small, interlocking strips
I made from .016 stainless, heavy fiberglass tape from Spruce, and a wrap of
heavy metal tape before applying the clamps. I buy the tape from my favorite Fly
Market vendor at OSH, it is mil surplus made by Lamar. $4 a roll for 1", he
was out of 2" this year.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
A word of caution. I had been told that silicone sealer, with that ammonia smell,
will eat at the aluminum. Pencil lead and Simple Green can damage aluminum.
Although the makers of Simple Green makes a good, safe product to wash our planes.
Jim B
>>> mark.j@yakuk.com 08/09/05 2:43 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Jefferies" <mark.j@yakuk.com>
It Hungary a guy got carbon poisoning and dies in the crash. About 4 years
ago now.
1. its very well know adding colour to the exhaust (show smoke) shows
the poisoning in the cockpit all the time.
2. take a look at this pic http://www.yakuk.com/img/Aeros.jpg smoke
over the wing, just like the CJ.
3. bottom of the a/c is high pressure/ top is low pressure
4. the MAIN route for smoke in cockpit is via the oil cooler>to inside
wing>to fuselage via wing spar holes, aileron rod holes, and other openings.
5. As you see from the pic, smoke will also be coming in via the
tailplane. (same on stearmen dusters)
6. Opening the cockpit to let the smoke out just lets 150% more in from
the bottom!!!
7. If you look at a Y52 head on you will see a longer exhaust right
side, this is a "small" fix the OEM had at the problem. The real fix is to
put another 6" on the ex as we do in the aerostars team.
8. On the Y50 its possible to reduce the problem by 80% by completely
sealing the oil cooler/ fuselage opening, sheet ally and silicone sealer
needed. Do the wing fairings also and its almost 100% smoke free.
9. We have a neat little fuse vent mod that could be adapted to take an
ox mask hose for fresh air breathing.
10. I have done many days with 8/9 hrs in the seat of a YAK, and am very
conscious of feeling under par at the end of it all. I do cockpit checks
slowly and TWICE prior to landing.
11. Lastly, don't use diesel smoke adding to the poisoning. That's
castnergenic .
Best regards, fly safe-Mark Jefferies
For YAK UK Ltd www.yakuk.com
Lt Gransden Airfield
Sandy, Beds
SG19 3BP
England.
Tel +44 (0)1767 651156.
Fax +44 (0)1767 651157
Mobile +44 (0)7785 538 317
Conditions and terms of business
Aircraft for sale
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
I too have experienced CO in cockpit.
In my 52 returning from ARS 2004.
And don't bother buying a CO detector (IMHO, YMMV).
I bought an expensive detector with a digital readout of CO in PPM.
The readings were "redlined" all the time.
There is no question "if" we all have too much CO in cockpit, we do.
EXHAUST:
T-band clamps make for great clamps. Good looking, sturdy, inexpensive.
Try McMaster Carr or similar.
I experimented with the hi-temp exhaust wrap tape.
But I found it degraded over time. Perhaps there is a higher temp version
of this same product.
It did provide excellent sealing properties.
There is no one single cure to this dangerous problem.
Single exposure to very hi levels?
Repeated exposure to low levels (ARS, OSH type fly-ins).. .
The results are the same.
---------------------------
Thomas Johnson
Airpower Insurance, LLC
36 West Ocotillo Road
Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
Tel: 602-628-2701
Fax: 623-321-5843
E: tomjohnson@cox.net
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Jim Bernier wrote:
> A word of caution. I had been told that silicone sealer, with that ammonia
> smell, will eat at the aluminum. Pencil lead and Simple Green can damage
> aluminum. Although the makers of Simple Green makes a good, safe product to
> wash our planes.
I thought that the smell from silicone rubber caulking was acetic acid
(vinegar). I also thought it was safe to use on aluminum. I know that pencil
lead (carbon) causes embrittlement of stainless steel but I wasn't aware that
it attacks aluminum.
The place to look for sealing compounds might be the marine industry. I know
that they tend to avoid stuff like RTV silicone in preference to other types
of caulking. 3M 101, 4000, and 4200 are possibilities. Some of the
polysulfide-based caulks (Boat Life) look like they might work OK as they are
resistant to fuel and oil, bond to metals, yet remain flexible.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brian-yak@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by:
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CO in cockpit
http://www.clampco.com
Have a selection of exhaust T clamps and other alternatives.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Subject: Yak-List: CO in cockpit
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
I too have experienced CO in cockpit.
In my 52 returning from ARS 2004.
And don't bother buying a CO detector (IMHO, YMMV).
I bought an expensive detector with a digital readout of CO in PPM.
The readings were "redlined" all the time.
There is no question "if" we all have too much CO in cockpit, we do.
EXHAUST:
T-band clamps make for great clamps. Good looking, sturdy, inexpensive.
Try McMaster Carr or similar.
I experimented with the hi-temp exhaust wrap tape.
But I found it degraded over time. Perhaps there is a higher temp version
of this same product.
It did provide excellent sealing properties.
There is no one single cure to this dangerous problem.
Single exposure to very hi levels?
Repeated exposure to low levels (ARS, OSH type fly-ins).. .
The results are the same.
---------------------------
Thomas Johnson
Airpower Insurance, LLC
36 West Ocotillo Road
Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
Tel: 602-628-2701
Fax: 623-321-5843
E: tomjohnson@cox.net
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
I was chatting with my neighbor who was at OSH this year. He remarked
about how many CJ-s and Yaks were there and how well you guys flew.
Not bad coming from a T-6 driver and the ex-president of EAA Warbirds :)
Kudos
Ernie
Message 8
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| Subject: | "A GuideTo Civilian Formation Aerobatics" |
1.96 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date": yak-list@matronics.com
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Spencer" <splitimage.wing@verizon.net>
For those who have asked, the website is up and available for feed
back/comments or orders.
www.ronspencerairshows.com
regards, -rs-
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: : Carbon monoxide poisoningCarbon monoxide poisoning |
(not processed: message from valid local sender)
--> Yak-List message posted by: "aaron marshall" <aaron@marshallservices.com>
Excellent Information. I have often looked down at that primitive stove pipe
heat duct beneath the panel in my Yak and wondered just how good of a job
the person who originally tig welded the heat muff around the exhaust stack
did. For this reason I purchased at OSH this year a remote mounted CO
detector (www.coguardian.com). Jim your points about canopy and especially
lower fuselage gaps/holes are well taken. The TW has 6" holes in the wing
root as well as 2"x"2" holes in the lower fuselage which up here in the
north do an excellent job of blowing ice cold air right up onto the bottom
of the seat. (Ass freezes). Covering these gear well holes with duct tape
is easy and dramatically reduces the cold air problem so probably reduces
the CO potential as well. The CO monitor is 4"x2" and can be mounted easily
to the floor or under the panel. 2 small wires go to an amber light that
fits in well with the other indicator lights on the panel. They offer many
differnt ones including portable ones that plug into a lighter adapter.
They also offer ones with digital display to show PPM in case you want to
see just how bad the leak is.
Aaron Marshall
Yak 52TW
N343DC
Message 10
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| Subject: | Formation Ramblings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
The kudos we received at Oshkosh were earned by all of us that participate, not
just at OSH, but in the cumulative training and practice that got all of us this
far. Each WB group has it's strengths that they exploit: The T-6's buzz the
crowd with prop noise and lots of mass to paint and gleam. They are what a "warbird"
should be. Yet at one time, the real warbirds didn't consider them worthy.
Time moves on. The T-34's have a wide speed range to use and their kiddie-toy
ground handling that let them do things like the Diamond Drop landing. They
too stood at the tent, waiting to get inside. T-28's earned their place during
Vietnam; their size and weight provide a steady platform in turbulent air
during the shows.
Now we have the Yaks, and CJ's. They are manuverable, yet solid for formation work.
Slowly, we have amassed pilots, trained and sweated to get where we are today.
Our edge? If anything it is that we learn from our mistakes and keep on
improving. Flying a bit more acute also makes for interesting formations that
other groups don't do. So are we in the tent yet? Well maybe not all the way but
there is no more denying our presence.
Where do we go from here? MOTS (more of the same). An airshow formation manual
would be helpful though since airshow flying is different that straight FAST.
We use non-standard procedures and "shortcuts" where prudent. However, I believe
that a workable manual MUST be the product of cumulative input, not the vision
of just a few, but input from all parts of the formation, tail-end Charlie
included.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | YAK Exhaust Clamps |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Could I ask please that users of CLAMPCO and other T band clamp types to
please include the exact part number info of what they are using for each
clamp location on the exhaust tubes? I would like to have known good
numbers that I am sure are going to work on this application instead of
having to reinvent that particular wheel.
Information such as: "I used this part number, and it works, but was just a
tad bit narrow." or "It works but was almost too tight in diameter", etc.,
etc. would be a God Send.
Let's get this information, narrow it down to exactly what is needed to do
the job as best as possible and then post it.
Anyone else with experience using different types of seals would be nice to
hear from to. Such as the milspec heat shield tape mentioned by Craig,
Exhaust header tape (Tom), etc.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Message 12
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| Subject: | on to the bombers, |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Troops,
As most of you know I must tare myself away and take on the rather dubious
duty of flying the B-24J (now called "Witchcraft") for the Collings Foundation.
That I get to fly the B-17 a lot lately adds to the work load, but you know
me, I complain little about such chores. Honest guys its hard work! :-} (I
don't think they believe me).
To add to it all tomorrow at O Dark 30, I'll be catching an airliner to catch
up with the bombers. Woo is me. You can find where I'm at the foundation's
web (www.collingsfoundation.org). Look under the tour schedule pages. If you
really need to talk to me, I can sometimes be caught on my cell phone (Its an
old shitty one) 386-503-9820. Try to get me before the afternoons because
that's when we usually fly and by than my phone battery is usually dead.
Occasionally I'll be able to get on-line for e-mail but often.
Stay safe and up right when wheels are on the ground.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
386-503-9820
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: YAK Exhaust Clamps |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
About 5 years ago I worked directly with Clampco to manufacture custom SS
T-bolt clamps with SS bolt and nuts. Carl Hays now sells those clamps which
are 3 different sizes. Very reasonable too. Call Carl Hays 858-292-7222
for more info.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich GS11 Mark G" <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: Yak-List: YAK Exhaust Clamps
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
> <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>
>
> Could I ask please that users of CLAMPCO and other T band clamp types to
> please include the exact part number info of what they are using for each
> clamp location on the exhaust tubes? I would like to have known good
> numbers that I am sure are going to work on this application instead of
> having to reinvent that particular wheel.
>
> Information such as: "I used this part number, and it works, but was just
> a
> tad bit narrow." or "It works but was almost too tight in diameter", etc.,
> etc. would be a God Send.
>
> Let's get this information, narrow it down to exactly what is needed to do
> the job as best as possible and then post it.
>
> Anyone else with experience using different types of seals would be nice
> to
> hear from to. Such as the milspec heat shield tape mentioned by Craig,
> Exhaust header tape (Tom), etc.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
>
>
Message 14
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Hi Brian;
Re: Jim's and your comments on silicone sealant, pencil lead. etc.
The original silicone RTV sealants do contain acetic acid and are corrosive
to aluminum ALLOYS. Pencil lead is extremely corrosive as well and should
never be used as a marking device. Whether these are detrimental to pure
aluminum or not I don''t know but that is immaterial since we are concerned
only with alloys, mostly the 2000 series which use copper as the main
alloying element.
The newer silicone sealants do not have the acedic acid aroma and may or may
not be corrosive. I don't know but I make it standard practice to not use
ANY unknown product in direct contact with alumiminum alloy, I first prime
the material with De Soto Super Koropon to avoid such contact whether it is
sealer, contact cement or any similar product.
As to Simple Green or any similar high detergent cleaner if I have to use it
I make sure it is thouroghly rinsed with many gallons of clean water.
How is your project coming?
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: carbon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Jim Bernier wrote:
>> A word of caution. I had been told that silicone sealer, with that
>> ammonia
>> smell, will eat at the aluminum. Pencil lead and Simple Green can damage
>> aluminum. Although the makers of Simple Green makes a good, safe product
>> to
>> wash our planes.
>
> I thought that the smell from silicone rubber caulking was acetic acid
> (vinegar). I also thought it was safe to use on aluminum. I know that
> pencil
> lead (carbon) causes embrittlement of stainless steel but I wasn't aware
> that
> it attacks aluminum.
>
> The place to look for sealing compounds might be the marine industry. I
> know
> that they tend to avoid stuff like RTV silicone in preference to other
> types
> of caulking. 3M 101, 4000, and 4200 are possibilities. Some of the
> polysulfide-based caulks (Boat Life) look like they might work OK as they
> are
> resistant to fuel and oil, bond to metals, yet remain flexible.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brian-yak@lloyd.com Suite 201
> http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
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