Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:08 AM - Re: Radial Rocket (Craig Payne)
2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: Radial Rocket (KJKimball@aol.com)
3. 07:07 AM - Re: YAK-52 TD (Bill Walker)
4. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Radial Rocket (Fraser, Gus)
5. 08:49 AM - Re: powered up CJ5's (N13472@aol.com)
6. 08:49 AM - Re: Selma Buffonery (N13472@aol.com)
7. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: Radial Rocket (KJKimball@aol.com)
8. 09:59 AM - Re: YAK-52 TD (Roger Doc Kemp)
9. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: Radial Rocket (Fraser, Gus)
10. 11:52 AM - Cowl development (Craig Payne)
11. 12:07 PM - Re: Cowl development (Roger Doc Kemp)
12. 03:59 PM - Re: YAK-52 TD (ByronMFox@aol.com)
13. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Radial Rocket (Frank Haertlein)
14. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: Selma Buffonery (Craig Payne)
15. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Re: Selma Buffonery (Roger Doc Kemp)
16. 10:23 PM - Re: Selma Buffonery (fish@aviation-tech.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Radial Rocket |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Speaking of the Radial Rocket, I saw it at OSH again this year. No retract version
planned but being of the engineer's bent, I'm afraid I insulted the designer
when I pointed out that it performs like the F-1 Rocket but requires almost
another 100HP to do so.
I think that drag through the engine is the biggest issue. Looking at the cowling
exit area on the RR, I'm amazed at how small it is. Designer reports normal
temps in cruise but I wonder about extended taxi.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Radial Rocket |
--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
Craig,
The nose bowl of the RR is similar to that which I designed for the Pitts
Model 12. The shape of the bowl, the opening and the double reflex inner cuff
really work well to provide excellent cooling flow. The outlet area at the
lower firewall of the model 12 is small also at 7.25"x 19" wide. We have
excellent cooling even during acro with the 12.
The McCullocoupe is another design of ours with the same cowl and exit areas.
It's 400hp M14PF runs very cool and verges on too cool. Oil temps have
never exceeded 170f even when the engine was new and during acro. The head temps
have never gone over 370f.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/
http://www.pittsmodel12.com/
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bill Walker" <bwalker11@charter.net>
Hi gang,
Guess I've lurked long enough, time for a response.
Dennis is correct to a degree. The clark Y airfoil on these aircraft was
not designed for speed. However, some mods to the plane have made it a
little faster.
The flush enclosed landing gear must help as there is considerably less drag
to it. Enroute to Oshkosh I indicated 240 kmh at 6500 ft with a 65/65 pwr
setting for the entire trip. I've flown regular Yaks and TWs for several
years and at an equal power setting, temperature, and altitude, the TD is a
little faster.
The real benefit to the TD is not cruise speed, (my Viking is made for that)
it is the extra fuel (68 gallons), over all balance, and excellent
workmanship that Termikas does on the rebuilding of these planes. Anyone
who saw this plane a Oshkosh will attest to the workmanship. As to the
balance, Termikas has done their homework with the elimination of the nose
gear and addition of fuel in the wings. The Cof G falls between 21% and 27%
of mac and the plane can be flown from the rear seat solo. The nose
heavyness is gone when solo in the front seat and the trim change when a
passenger is in the back is not as noticeable. Solo, it flies and performs
aerobatics more like the 50 than the 52.
Sorry, enough advertising! For those who are interested in the gear
collapse, a manufacturing defect was found in the left side diagonal strut
that raises and lowers the gear. I must give praise at his point to Vytas
and Algis at Termikas. In addition to the landing gear problem, I had some
problems with shipping damage as well. Termikas has responded quickly, and
gone to great lengths to resolve any problems that I have incurred, problems
for which they may not have been responsible.
One last thing, Termikas rebuilt the Russian M14 using the 400 hp blower
kit. This is a huge benefit even with the V530 prop. Manifold pressure at
take-off could be pushed up to around 1000 to 1100 and, naturally, cruise
pressure could be maintained at a higher altitude.
I can't say whether the added cost is justifiable. I can't justify having a
BMW over a chevy, or even owning an airplane! But if I have to make a choice
between the BMW and the TD, sorry Joyce, the BMW is outta here!
"Wild Bill"
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Radial Rocket |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
Kevin,
At Osh I noticed the cowls on both the 12 and the RR. Just looking at it I
just got the feel that the top cylinders would get hotter than the lower
ones. No evidence but I was wondering if you had any evidence of monitoring
all cylinder temps with something like the EDM900 ? If the cooling is even I
understand why Craig "speed demon, low mpg" Payne is interested. Craig can't
wait till the day that you quote 6gph at 160kts :))))
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KJKimball@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Radial Rocket
--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
Craig,
The nose bowl of the RR is similar to that which I designed for the Pitts
Model 12. The shape of the bowl, the opening and the double reflex inner
cuff really work well to provide excellent cooling flow. The outlet area at
the lower firewall of the model 12 is small also at 7.25"x 19" wide. We
have excellent cooling even during acro with the 12.
The McCullocoupe is another design of ours with the same cowl and exit
areas.
It's 400hp M14PF runs very cool and verges on too cool. Oil temps have
never exceeded 170f even when the engine was new and during acro. The head
temps have never gone over 370f.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/
http://www.pittsmodel12.com/
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: powered up CJ5's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: N13472@aol.com
In a message dated 8/14/2005 3:48:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rvfltd@televar.com writes:
One note, at this time there is only one powered up CJ5 / yak 18 in
existence in the US that I know of. It belonged to Bob Kantner of CA. I am
told that it is wearing a 220 or 260 hp Cont. radial and is a great
performer. I am told it recently sold to a gentleman in NV. I was hoping
to see it at ARS this year, but he did not show. Tom Elliott do you know
the name of the new owner?? Hopefully we will be successful in recruiting
him into our ranks and that the aircraft will be at ARS 06.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
It has a 220 Cont, Bob Thomson is the new owner based at 3L2 in Sandy Valley
NV. Also
has hyd toe brakes, Electric/hyd Ldg & Flaps. I am working on him to join
RPA, he does
not have? / use a computer so if any one has any questions? for him send
them to me. I will
hard copy to Bob.
Tom & Nora Elliott
CASCADE WARBIRDS
CJ-6A NX63727
C-177B N13472
777 Quartz Ave
Sandy Valley NV 89019
Home 702-723-1223
Fax 702-723-1243
Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Selma Buffonery |
--> Yak-List message posted by: N13472@aol.com
In a message dated 8/14/2005 5:20:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jsfox@adelphia.net writes:
Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
Definitely need a Hangar Queen award - CJ or Yak
Steve "SOB" Fox
Yak 52
N3043R
http://homepage.mac.com/steve.fox/PhotoAlbum5.html
YES, I need another trophy!
Tom & Nora Elliott
CASCADE WARBIRDS
CJ-6A NX63727
777 Quartz Ave
Sandy Valley NV 89019
Home 702-723-1223
Fax 702-723-1243
Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Radial Rocket |
--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
Gus,
We have instrumented the engine in the past. With our first model 12, we
were very careful to evaluate the cooling. We found a head temps that would
approach red line with acro for the first few hours until the engine we broken
in.
After that, temps only approached red line of 464F when doing 8-10
hammerheads in a row at full power and full rpm. At that time, we had a smaller
oil
cooler installed than we now use and had more trouble with oil temps than head
temps. Now with our current oil cooler, we have no oil temp problems. We
often see cylinder #5 as the hottest as it is next to the sump. The top cylinders
don't seem to run hotter than the lowers. Out firewall and exit are designed
for downward flow.
I think the opening in the front of the RR cowl is smaller than in the model
12. It uses the model 12 spinner. Heck, lots of M14 powered airplanes have
the model 12 18" spinner on them now. We used the same cowl opening diameter
as the Sukhoi so that the gills or iris from the Sukhoi could be used if
desired. I think a yak 52 cowl has a larger diameter inlet opening than the Sukhoi
and if this is correct, it may be such to allow for the area absorbed by the
louvers.
The Yak cowl typically has an inner cuff at the top only that is a single
curve that ends abruptly into the cowl skin forward of the top cylinders. A
sukhoi has a full 360 degree inner cuff but it too ends abruptly into the skin.
The model 12, and I assume the RR, have a double curve inner cuff. I designed
this inner cuff such that it creates attached flow along it to the cylinder
heads much like a venturi. We do get a bit of expansive cooling effect with
this slightly dropping the air temp before it hits the cylinders.
The model 12 is fast too. Not as fast as the McCullocoupe or the RR but fast
for a biplane of it's size. We see 170mph true cruise at 14.5-15 gal/hr.
1000ft msl wide open speed is 205mph. Vne is 239mph. The 12 is faster than all
3 models of sukhoi. Some of this speed has to be from reduction in cooling
drag both inlet and outlet as compared to that of the sukhoi and yak. Curtis
felt airplanes we cooling exits under the belly gain a bit of a buoyant effect
that lightened the load of the airplane somewhat. I'm not sure about that but
Curtis wasn't wrong very often on such matters.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/
http://www.pittsmodel12.com/
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Dennis,
You missed the sarcassim in the 3) SUPPOSEDLY flies faster.
That was where I was going with that comment.
Managed to catch the crap that Scottie had (not very likely from him, have
been seeing it all week before). This is the first time in years that I
actually had to take off. So, I'm home today feeling like shit.
Talk to you later.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 8/14/2005 10:14:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: YAK-52 TD
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
<dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>
> According to Tim Williams (52TW) who flew along side of Bill Walker's TD
at
> OSH, they are definitely NOT any faster. It's the Clark Y airfoil.
Can't
> make it go much faster than it already is.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> To: "yak-list" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: YAK-52 TD
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Frank,
> > I had thought about a TD at one time same as I thought about a L-39. It
> > all came down to cost benefit ratios. The benefit of the TD was: 1) It
> > looks cool 2) It cost less than a TW 3)It supposedly flies faster than
the
> > 52. The L-39 also looks cool, does fly a hell of a lot faster, and cost
> > about the same as a TW. The cost in this deal is why I have not
purchased
> > either of the 3, TD, TW, or 39.
> > For all the above cost, I can operate my "Nose Dragging 52" for a
> > looooonnnnnggggg time. The idea here is to have fun economically. And
we
> > all know....Economics are relative. Just depends on how much you want
to
> > pay for the fun you have. For me, I'm keeping the "nose dragging 52"
and
> > having economical fun! After all, the grass is just as green in this
> > pasture as it is on the otherside of the fence.
> > Doc
> >
> >
> > Roger "Doc" Kemp
> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
> > If it don't sound Round...Why listen?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Radial Rocket |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
Jim thanks for that.
My Sp-91 has a Sukhoi set up. I think that it might be interesting to see a
modification for 52s and CJs for a real sleek looking nose. Craig did make
some changes to his stock CJ cowl that he reported made a difference in drag
go for it Craig you know you want to. Then it would look even more like an
FW :)))
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KJKimball@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Radial Rocket
--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
Gus,
We have instrumented the engine in the past. With our first model 12, we
were very careful to evaluate the cooling. We found a head temps that would
approach red line with acro for the first few hours until the engine we
broken in.
After that, temps only approached red line of 464F when doing 8-10
hammerheads in a row at full power and full rpm. At that time, we had a
smaller oil cooler installed than we now use and had more trouble with oil
temps than head temps. Now with our current oil cooler, we have no oil temp
problems. We often see cylinder #5 as the hottest as it is next to the
sump. The top cylinders don't seem to run hotter than the lowers. Out
firewall and exit are designed for downward flow.
I think the opening in the front of the RR cowl is smaller than in the model
12. It uses the model 12 spinner. Heck, lots of M14 powered airplanes have
the model 12 18" spinner on them now. We used the same cowl opening
diameter as the Sukhoi so that the gills or iris from the Sukhoi could be
used if desired. I think a yak 52 cowl has a larger diameter inlet opening
than the Sukhoi and if this is correct, it may be such to allow for the area
absorbed by the louvers.
The Yak cowl typically has an inner cuff at the top only that is a single
curve that ends abruptly into the cowl skin forward of the top cylinders. A
sukhoi has a full 360 degree inner cuff but it too ends abruptly into the
skin.
The model 12, and I assume the RR, have a double curve inner cuff. I
designed this inner cuff such that it creates attached flow along it to the
cylinder heads much like a venturi. We do get a bit of expansive cooling
effect with this slightly dropping the air temp before it hits the
cylinders.
The model 12 is fast too. Not as fast as the McCullocoupe or the RR but
fast for a biplane of it's size. We see 170mph true cruise at 14.5-15
gal/hr.
1000ft msl wide open speed is 205mph. Vne is 239mph. The 12 is faster than
all
3 models of sukhoi. Some of this speed has to be from reduction in cooling
drag both inlet and outlet as compared to that of the sukhoi and yak.
Curtis felt airplanes we cooling exits under the belly gain a bit of a
buoyant effect that lightened the load of the airplane somewhat. I'm not
sure about that but Curtis wasn't wrong very often on such matters.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/
http://www.pittsmodel12.com/
Message 10
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| Subject: | Cowl development |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Developing an improved cowl for a Yak is like putting lipstick on a pig. Cooling
improvement yes, speed...well you still have that fat Clark wing with bridge
rivets and buzzards feet hanging down.
Now the CJ has some possibilities as the real dirty place IS the cowl and nosegear,
everything else is clean. My cowl mods are only Stage 1, with 2 more versions
in the works. I'm planning a tuft testing flight soon but now the smoke
in the cockpit issue can also benefit from tuft testing to visualize the flow
under different AOA regimes.
BTW, NACA worked all the cowling drag problems out in the late 30's and 40's. Just
read the literature.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Cowl development |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
>
> Developing an improved cowl for a Yak is like putting lipstick on a pig.
Cooling improvement yes, speed...well you still have that fat Clark wing
with bridge rivets and buzzards feet hanging down.
Ah but that pig will loop and roll inside that slick CJ.
Doc
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: ByronMFox@aol.com
In a message dated 8/15/05 7:08:48 AM, bwalker11@charter.net writes:
> I can't say whether the added cost is justifiable. I can't justify having a
> BMW over a chevy, or even owning an airplane! But if I have to make a choice
> between the BMW and the TD, sorry Joyce, the BMW is outta here!
>
>
Oh, Diogenes! Eureka! The honest man has been found. ...Blitz
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Radial Rocket |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Jim
Visited your website http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/
I really like the music by-the-way.
That McCullocoupe looks like a plane I wouldn't mind building! Looks to be a
plane made for the sheer thrill and fun of flying...... And I bet at a kit
cost less than a TD conversion of the 52.
Send me the info on the kit!
A friend keeps telling me to not bother with 52 upgrades. Keeps referring to
something about silk out of a pigs ear....or something like that.
Thanks
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KJKimball@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Radial Rocket
--> Yak-List message posted by: KJKimball@aol.com
Gus,
We have instrumented the engine in the past. With our first model 12, we
were very careful to evaluate the cooling. We found a head temps that would
approach red line with acro for the first few hours until the engine we
broken in.
After that, temps only approached red line of 464F when doing 8-10
hammerheads in a row at full power and full rpm. At that time, we had a
smaller oil
cooler installed than we now use and had more trouble with oil temps than
head
temps. Now with our current oil cooler, we have no oil temp problems. We
often see cylinder #5 as the hottest as it is next to the sump. The top
cylinders
don't seem to run hotter than the lowers. Out firewall and exit are
designed
for downward flow.
I think the opening in the front of the RR cowl is smaller than in the model
12. It uses the model 12 spinner. Heck, lots of M14 powered airplanes have
the model 12 18" spinner on them now. We used the same cowl opening
diameter
as the Sukhoi so that the gills or iris from the Sukhoi could be used if
desired. I think a yak 52 cowl has a larger diameter inlet opening than the
Sukhoi
and if this is correct, it may be such to allow for the area absorbed by the
louvers.
The Yak cowl typically has an inner cuff at the top only that is a single
curve that ends abruptly into the cowl skin forward of the top cylinders. A
sukhoi has a full 360 degree inner cuff but it too ends abruptly into the
skin.
The model 12, and I assume the RR, have a double curve inner cuff. I
designed
this inner cuff such that it creates attached flow along it to the cylinder
heads much like a venturi. We do get a bit of expansive cooling effect with
this slightly dropping the air temp before it hits the cylinders.
The model 12 is fast too. Not as fast as the McCullocoupe or the RR but
fast
for a biplane of it's size. We see 170mph true cruise at 14.5-15 gal/hr.
1000ft msl wide open speed is 205mph. Vne is 239mph. The 12 is faster than
all
3 models of sukhoi. Some of this speed has to be from reduction in cooling
drag both inlet and outlet as compared to that of the sukhoi and yak.
Curtis
felt airplanes we cooling exits under the belly gain a bit of a buoyant
effect
that lightened the load of the airplane somewhat. I'm not sure about that
but
Curtis wasn't wrong very often on such matters.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/
http://www.pittsmodel12.com/
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Selma Buffonery |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
2 more awards came to mind:
Fastest Yak ...no that's an oxymoron
Slowest Yak...yes but it's only a 4 day event
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Selma Buffonery |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Or Best turning CJ!
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
> To: yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 8/15/2005 7:59:00 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Re: Selma Buffonery
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
>
> 2 more awards came to mind:
>
> Fastest Yak ...no that's an oxymoron
> Slowest Yak...yes but it's only a 4 day event
>
>
> Craig Payne
> cpayne@joimail.com
> EarthLink Revolves Around You.
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Selma Buffonery |
--> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
I think that award goes to me. My Yak has not flown in over a year and the future
is not looking good. Only needs $500.00 in repairs!
>--> Yak-List message posted by: N13472@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 8/14/2005 5:20:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>jsfox@adelphia.net writes:
>
>Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
>
>Definitely need a Hangar Queen award - CJ or Yak
>
>Steve "SOB" Fox
>Yak 52
>N3043R
>http://homepage.mac.com/steve.fox/PhotoAlbum5.html
>
>
>YES, I need another trophy!
>
>Tom & Nora Elliott
>CASCADE WARBIRDS
>CJ-6A NX63727
>777 Quartz Ave
>Sandy Valley NV 89019
>Home 702-723-1223
>Fax 702-723-1243
>Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
>Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
>
>
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