Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:02 AM - Re: Moving TFR's (Craig Payne)
2. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (Brian Lloyd)
3. 05:38 AM - Re: Moving TFR's (Jay Land)
4. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (Ernest Martinez)
5. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (Brian Lloyd)
6. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (Cliff Umscheid)
7. 10:28 AM - Re: Garmin 396 (Barry Hancock)
8. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (Brian Lloyd)
9. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (Brian Lloyd)
11. 01:28 PM - Re: fuel tank advice (Jim Ivey)
12. 01:28 PM - Re: fuel tank advice (Jim Ivey)
13. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: Moving TFR's (Roger Kemp)
14. 02:32 PM - Re: fuel tank advice (ron wasson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
>Ernest Martinez wrote:
> > Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> >
>> All we need now is a system to tell us of moving TFR's.
>
>It is called ATC. It is the only thing that works as everything else is
>information that was valid only before you departed.
>
>-
>Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
Uhhh... nice try Brian but No Joy. ATC does NOT have a responsibility to offer
TFR avoidance, to VFR traffic or even to a scheduled carrier on an IFR flight
plan. As my lawyer and FAA hearing oficer pointed out: "It is always the responsibility
of the PIC to accept or decline a clearance".
That being said, I did beat my rap due to bad info passed on from the weather briefer
AND the tapes that I had requested to be saved, somehow disappeared. Combine
that with a slow Class C controller and there was trouble on the road ahead.
Of course I was contrite and my humble self as always...
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> Uhhh... nice try Brian but No Joy. ATC does NOT have a responsibility to offer
TFR avoidance,
> to VFR traffic or even to a scheduled carrier on an IFR flight plan.
Yes, I know that. OTOH, it is the only proactive source of TFR avoidance I
have been able to find.
And then there is the other hand where Potomac approach had me in the class-B
and put me on a course which intercepted the no-fly zone over DC and I had to
remind them not to let me fly into the no-fly zone. (Actually, I had to remind
them several times and finally raise my voice.)
There is no good solution.
> As my lawyer and FAA hearing oficer pointed out: "It is always the
> responsibility of the PIC to accept or decline a clearance".
And then be crucified for doing the 'wrong' thing.
> That being said, I did beat my rap due to bad info passed on from the
> weather briefer AND the tapes that I had requested to be saved, somehow
> disappeared. Combine that with a slow Class C controller and there was trouble
> on the road ahead. Of course I was contrite and my humble self as always...
I am so sick of hearing about and having to deal with this kind of s---.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jay Land <jland@popeandland.com>
You better give each of us your lawyers name. We're all going to need him
at some point. It's just a matter of time.
J
> From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
> Reply-To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:59:37 -0400
> To: yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Moving TFR's
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
>
>> Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> All we need now is a system to tell us of moving TFR's.
>>
>> It is called ATC. It is the only thing that works as everything else is
>> information that was valid only before you departed.
>>
>> -
>> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>
> Uhhh... nice try Brian but No Joy. ATC does NOT have a responsibility to offer
> TFR avoidance, to VFR traffic or even to a scheduled carrier on an IFR flight
> plan. As my lawyer and FAA hearing oficer pointed out: "It is always the
> responsibility of the PIC to accept or decline a clearance".
>
> That being said, I did beat my rap due to bad info passed on from the weather
> briefer AND the tapes that I had requested to be saved, somehow disappeared.
> Combine that with a slow Class C controller and there was trouble on the road
> ahead. Of course I was contrite and my humble self as always...
>
>
> Craig Payne
> cpayne@joimail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Wrong!!!!!
ATC has no idea of specific VIP travel plans. I have a first hand account of
someone violating a moving TFR. They did everything any prudent pilot would
do, including contacting FSS prior to departure, and inquiring about TFR's.
Certain people travel with a 30 mile TFR around them moving at 500 MPH, if
the TFR happens to fly into you, YOU have violtated that TFR. The VIP's
flight plan is NOT annouced untill 2 hours prior to departure. The FAA
says,s that it is YOUR responsiblity to call FSS every 2 hours and inquire
about any moving TFR's heading towards you or even overtaking you, and if
said VIP is coming at you at 500 mph, @ 40,000 ft, you better do something
to remain out of its MOVING 30 mile cone of protection or you WILL be
intercepted, handcuffed, interogated and treated like a common terrorist,
for the mere fact that a TFR FLEW INTO YOU!!!!!!!
Ernie
On 8/31/05, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
>
> >Ernest Martinez wrote:
> > > Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> > >
> >> All we need now is a system to tell us of moving TFR's.
> >
> >It is called ATC. It is the only thing that works as everything else is
> >information that was valid only before you departed.
> >
> >-
> >Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>
> Uhhh... nice try Brian but No Joy. ATC does NOT have a responsibility to
> offer TFR avoidance, to VFR traffic or even to a scheduled carrier on an IFR
> flight plan. As my lawyer and FAA hearing oficer pointed out: "It is always
> the responsibility of the PIC to accept or decline a clearance".
>
> That being said, I did beat my rap due to bad info passed on from the
> weather briefer AND the tapes that I had requested to be saved, somehow
> disappeared. Combine that with a slow Class C controller and there was
> trouble on the road ahead. Of course I was contrite and my humble self as
> always...
>
>
> Craig Payne
> cpayne@joimail.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Ernest Martinez wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> Wrong!!!!!
>
> ATC has no idea of specific VIP travel plans.
ATC does know what aircraft are in the system. When it comes to "moving" TFRs,
*ONLY* ATC has information about the position of that TFR in real time.
Therefore, *ONLY* ATC can tell you where to go to avoid it.
I was never talking about using ATC to plan to avoid TFRs. I was talking about
how to avoid TFRs that pop into being after you take off. ATC has steered me
around spontaneous TFRs more than once, usually those associated with
firefighting, i.e. those that came into being after I got my briefing.
A moving TFR surrounding Air Force One for example, does NOT show up in an FSS
briefing. They are not going to announce where AF1 is going to be three hours
from now for security reasons.
So I stick by my original answer. Only ATC *can* provide real-time,
in-the-air, moving TFR avoidance. The only problem is that it is not an
official part of their job and they don't have to do it. This essentially
leaves us with no good solution. Fortunately they *do* provide the service,
albeit unofficially.
The only sure way to avoid this problem is to not fly. The feds would like
nothing better.
Anyone have any ideas about how to rein-in a government gone nuts? Ever read
the book, "Unintended Consequences", by John Ross? We pilots are just waking
up to this problem. He wrote about it ten years ago and tracked the history
for another area of interest.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
Hey Craig,
Do you mean to tell us your lawyer and hearing officer had to point out
to you that "IT is always the responsibility of
the PIC to accept or decline a clearance"? This stuff has been in FAR
91.3, FAR 135.19 (b) and FAR Part 121
since the Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938, the Fed. Aviation Act of 1958
and beyond! Where Ya been Pal? The above Regs all say the same thing
and point to the same Polar Star, ie, "The Pilot in Command is solely
responsible for the safety of the aircraft, the passengers and the cargo
therein....." This is the Polar Star guiding every pilot and should have
been pointed out by some flight instructor before your solo. The problem
is, most instructors are equally oblivious, so it is left to that part of
the educational process which occurs AFTER the filing of a violation by
our Friendly Airmens Association during which time YOU are being ground
into small humiliating pieces of Humble Pie by the System Managers.
Glad to hear you beat the Rap this time; you must be good at
showing humility and contrition. I have survived a 37 year airline pilot
career during which I have represented many pilots before the FAA and
C.A.B (NTSB). The odds are stacked against the pilot because pilots are
operationally oriented and the Gen'l. Counsel's Office of FAA is solely
legally oriented. There seems to be light years separating the two.
Regards,
Cliff Umscheid
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:59:37 -0400 "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
writes:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
>
> >Ernest Martinez wrote:
> > > Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez
> <erniel29@gmail.com>
> > >
> >> All we need now is a system to tell us of moving TFR's.
> >
> >It is called ATC. It is the only thing that works as everything
> else is
> >information that was valid only before you departed.
> >
> >-
> >Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>
> Uhhh... nice try Brian but No Joy. ATC does NOT have a
> responsibility to offer TFR avoidance, to VFR traffic or even to a
> scheduled carrier on an IFR flight plan. As my lawyer and FAA
> hearing oficer pointed out: "It is always the responsibility of the
> PIC to accept or decline a clearance".
>
> That being said, I did beat my rap due to bad info passed on from
> the weather briefer AND the tapes that I had requested to be saved,
> somehow disappeared. Combine that with a slow Class C controller and
> there was trouble on the road ahead. Of course I was contrite and my
> humble self as always...
>
>
> Craig Payne
> cpayne@joimail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <barry@flyredstar.org>
On Aug 30, 2005, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> Well that's not strictly true anymore - technology has caught up. The
> new Garmin
> 396 with an XM Weather subscription will give you TFR updates in
> flight.
>
> Greg Young
Just played with it for the first time this week. That box is the best
thing since sliced bread. All you need now for a total glass cockpit
(for VFR flight anyway) is that 396 and a Dynon EFIS...all for under
$10K, amazing!
Cheers,
Barry
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Cliff Umscheid wrote:
> and point to the same Polar Star, ie, "The Pilot in Command is solely
> responsible for the safety of the aircraft, the passengers and the cargo
> therein....." This is the Polar Star guiding every pilot and should have
> been pointed out by some flight instructor before your solo. The problem
> is, most instructors are equally oblivious,
I am not sure that is the case. I and others I know cover this in a ground
school class for our students. I cover what to say and, more importantly, what
not to say. I cover filing NASA forms. I cover how to handle a ramp check. The
most important thing I cover is that the FAA is *NOT* your friend in an
enforcement action.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
As an FAA Safety Inspector once said at a safety seminar, "Hello. I'm Mr.
XXXXX from the FAA and we're not happy unless you're not happy!"
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Moving TFR's
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Cliff Umscheid wrote:
>> and point to the same Polar Star, ie, "The Pilot in Command is solely
>> responsible for the safety of the aircraft, the passengers and the cargo
>> therein....." This is the Polar Star guiding every pilot and should have
>> been pointed out by some flight instructor before your solo. The problem
>> is, most instructors are equally oblivious,
>
> I am not sure that is the case. I and others I know cover this in a ground
> school class for our students. I cover what to say and, more importantly,
> what
> not to say. I cover filing NASA forms. I cover how to handle a ramp check.
> The
> most important thing I cover is that the FAA is *NOT* your friend in an
> enforcement action.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Brian Lloyd wrote:
> I am not sure that is the case. I and others I know cover this in a ground
> school class for our students. I cover what to say and, more importantly, what
> not to say. I cover filing NASA forms. I cover how to handle a ramp check. The
> most important thing I cover is that the FAA is *NOT* your friend in an
> enforcement action.
Let me just amend that to read, "...the FAA is *NOT* your friend."
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 11
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| Subject: | fuel tank advice |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Ivey" <jim@jimivey.com>
Ron:
I have a 23.5 gallon aluminum tank in that very area of my CJ. It is
placarded for no aerobatics with fuel in it. I also take off on mains and
switch to the aux in level cruise (never wanted to see how steep an angle
would unport a partially-filled aux -- my guess is it would never happen but
why tempt it). The selector valve is located behind pilot's left ankle on
floor and fuel from aux goes to header just like mains. Very accurate
automotive-style fuel gauge is located at pilot's right elbow for aux tank.
Photo of filler neck and cap installation available upon request.
Jim Ivey
N46YK
Message 12
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| Subject: | fuel tank advice |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Ivey" <jim@jimivey.com>
I forgot to mention my aux tank installation is gravity feed with no pump.
Jim
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Moving TFR's |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
When dealing with the FAA, one term comes to mind.....BOHICA. (Bend Over
Here It Comes AGAIN).
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 8/31/2005 12:58:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Moving TFR's
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
<dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>
> As an FAA Safety Inspector once said at a safety seminar, "Hello. I'm
Mr.
> XXXXX from the FAA and we're not happy unless you're not happy!"
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Moving TFR's
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> >
> > Cliff Umscheid wrote:
> >> and point to the same Polar Star, ie, "The Pilot in Command is solely
> >> responsible for the safety of the aircraft, the passengers and the
cargo
> >> therein....." This is the Polar Star guiding every pilot and should
have
> >> been pointed out by some flight instructor before your solo. The
problem
> >> is, most instructors are equally oblivious,
> >
> > I am not sure that is the case. I and others I know cover this in a
ground
> > school class for our students. I cover what to say and, more
importantly,
> > what
> > not to say. I cover filing NASA forms. I cover how to handle a ramp
check.
> > The
> > most important thing I cover is that the FAA is *NOT* your friend in an
> > enforcement action.
> >
> > --
> > Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> > brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
> > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
> >
> > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank advice |
--> Yak-List message posted by: ron wasson <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
All photos would be very welcome
ron wasson
ronwasson@mindspring.com
On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Jim Ivey wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Ivey" <jim@jimivey.com>
>
> Ron:
>
> I have a 23.5 gallon aluminum tank in that very area of my CJ. It is
> placarded for no aerobatics with fuel in it. I also take off on
> mains and
> switch to the aux in level cruise (never wanted to see how steep an
> angle
> would unport a partially-filled aux -- my guess is it would never
> happen but
> why tempt it). The selector valve is located behind pilot's left
> ankle on
> floor and fuel from aux goes to header just like mains. Very accurate
> automotive-style fuel gauge is located at pilot's right elbow for
> aux tank.
>
> Photo of filler neck and cap installation available upon request.
>
> Jim Ivey
> N46YK
>
>
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