Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:16 AM - Oil cooler Louver Set (Jill Gernetzke)
2. 06:47 AM - Gear Up (Tim Gagnon)
3. 07:09 AM - Re: Gear Up (Roger Kemp)
4. 07:17 AM - Re: Gear Up (FamilyGage@aol.com)
5. 08:26 AM - Re: Gear ups (Ernest Martinez)
6. 09:22 AM - Re: Gear Up (Brian Lloyd)
7. 09:28 AM - Re: Gear ups (Brian Lloyd)
8. 10:09 AM - Re: Gear ups (Ernest Martinez)
9. 12:56 PM - Re: Gear Up (Roger Kemp)
10. 03:08 PM - Re: Gear ups (Greg Young)
11. 04:46 PM - Gear warning (JandEFinley@comcast.net)
12. 06:58 PM - Re: Gear ups (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
13. 07:02 PM - Re: Gear ups (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
14. 07:21 PM - Re: Gear ups (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
15. 07:27 PM - Gear Safety Systems for the CJ (Jeff Linebaugh)
16. 07:28 PM - Re: Gear ups (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
17. 07:33 PM - Re: Gear Safety Systems for the CJ (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
18. 07:50 PM - cj6A prototype (cjpilot710@aol.com)
19. 08:44 PM - Re: cj6A prototype (Roger Kemp)
20. 09:06 PM - Re: cj6A prototype (JOE HOWSE)
21. 11:27 PM - Re: cj6A prototype (fish@aviation-tech.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Oil cooler Louver Set |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jill Gernetzke <jill@m-14p.com>
I have 3 Yak 52 oil cooler louver sets in stock. Please contact me
off-list.
Jill Gernetzke
jill@m-14p.com
Message 2
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The military and general/commercial aviation aircraft manufactures have the
resources to come up with some system to prevent the weak link in the system
from not putting the gear down when landing. There is a very simple (and
cheap) way to prevent this: A CHECKLIST!!!!!!!! You could couple it with a
pre-landing flow (GUMPS..or whatever) and then verify with a checklist. For
those that are flying two-holers with someone in the backseat, ask them to
verify that the gear is down and locked. If you=92re in formation, lead could
call =93check wheels down=94. For those in single seat airplanes, go back to the
flow and checklist. The airlines have adopted the checklist flow and then
verify with a physical checklist. It seems to work for us. Airplanes with
these fancy warning systems have landed gear up even with the horn going
off. Some just cancel it and then have a landing roll of about 2 feet.
Is everyone using a checklist? Is there a standardized checklist out there?
Does it take you from pre-flight to post-flight? Cruise Checklist? (Temps,
pressures, freqs..ect) In my airline flying, a checklist is golden (and a
required document) and we have a checklist for everything! I think this
may minimize the issues the group is having. It is a simple but tested
answer to many problems we encounter.
Just a thought.
TG
N359FG
Yak-50
Message 3
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Tim,
Another voice echoing in the abyss. You are echoing what I said 3-4 days ago. The
checklist is simple (in the KISS principle) along with the pre-landing, cruise,
decent, and landing flow. It is cheap and if followed, is guaranteed to at
least make you aware that your are about to screw-up!!
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gagnon
Subject: Yak-List: Gear Up
The military and general/commercial aviation aircraft manufactures have the resources
to come up with some system to prevent the weak link in the system from
not putting the gear down when landing. There is a very simple (and cheap) way
to prevent this: A CHECKLIST!!!!!!!! You could couple it with a pre-landing
flow (GUMPS..or whatever) and then verify with a checklist. For those that are
flying two-holers with someone in the backseat, ask them to verify that the
gear is down and locked. If youre in formation, lead could call check wheels down.
For those in single seat airplanes, go back to the flow and checklist. The
airlines have adopted the checklist flow and then verify with a physical checklist.
It seems to work for us. Airplanes with these fancy warning systems have
landed gear up even with the horn going off. Some just cancel it and then have
a landing roll of about 2 feet.
Is everyone using a checklist? Is there a standardized checklist out there? Does
it take you from pre-flight to post-flight? Cruise Checklist? (Temps, pressures,
freqs..ect) In my airline flying, a checklist is golden (and a required
document) and we have a checklist for everything! I think this may minimize
the issues the group is having. It is a simple but tested answer to many problems
we encounter.
Just a thought.
TG
N359FG
Yak-50
Message 4
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Doc:
Boy, do we beat a new subject to death. There must be 30-40 uploads
concerning "gear up".
speaking of KISS, just buy a Yak-52W or TW and you will have a "red" warning
light right at eye level if the gear is up and the flaps are down. It
works, I have already used the warning light.
My Best to all old Doc's
Ray
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
do not archive
If the slide was spring loaded then how would you raise the gear? You
would need 2 hands, one to hold the slide, the other to lift the
lever.
I guess we could install a remote manipulator arm attached on the rear
cockpit panel top, powered by a small wind turbine installed in the
oil cooler scoop. You would control the arm, with a mouthpeice like
parapalegics use. A small microproccesor mounted under the seat, would
interpret the commands, upload it via datalink sattelite to a ground
controller monitoring the gear lever on a monitor which is being
broadcast by your helmet cam. When you reach for the slide lock, you
puff twice which sends the broadcast to another manipulator on the
ground holding a hammer over the ground controllers head, when struck,
he wakes up, manipulates the ground control lever, which then goes up
to the sattelite, down to the plane and moves the manipulator arm to
raise the lever.
Or you could use a checklist.
Ernie
On 11/18/05, Frank Haertlein <yak52driver@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Dennis
>
> Spring loading the slide lock sounds like the best solution to "on the
> ground retracts" that I've heard yet. I'm going to implement it on my 52.
>
> Still leaves the problem of forgetting to lower the gear though. But then
> that can be taken care of procedurally..GUMPS checks for example.
>
> Frank
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> A. Dennis Savarese
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 3:47 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
>
> ".....emphasis should probably be on a system that protects against that
> versus accidental on the ground raisings."
>
> KISS method; spring load the slide lock. The gear handle can not be raised
> above the neutral position with the slide lock in place. Then if one
> forgets to move the slide lock when putting the gear down AND you have the
> audible GEAR DOWN alarm and red light on the panel, the alarm will sound and
> the light will illuminate in front of your face. Once again, I am an
> advocate of using the KISS principle.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
> To: 'yak-list@matronics.com'
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 12:57 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Gear ups
>
>
> Good question. Tom mentioned using an electrically operated valve... but
> you would have to be darn careful to get exactly the right one!
>
> To wit: You would want one that is spring loaded OPEN and only electrically
> closed, so that you could always operate the gear in case of an electrical
> failure. Ideally, the emergency air system should not go through this
> valve.
>
> Next, you would have to locate this valve very close to the actuator itself,
> to prevent the gear from moving due to residual line pressure. Again, the
> proper valve might be able to vent the line pressure when it is closed
> electrically removing that requirement.
>
> It actually is pretty "do-able". Parts shouldn't be more than a few
> hundred tops.
>
> To my way of thinking, it is much more likely to forget to put the gear DOWN
> when landing, rather than to manage to raise the gear on the ground during
> taxi. That said, the emphasis should probably be on a system that protects
> against that versus accidental on the ground raisings.
>
> MGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walter Lannon [mailto:wlannon@cablerocket.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 1:27 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>
> A squat switch should be set up to close the circuit only at full extension
> of the oleo. Even if you were to get that much oleo displacement from a
> bounce, rough ground, etc. and the switch was momentarily closed nothing
> will happen unless the gear is selected up.
> The squat switch would also prevent retraction in the unlikely event of a
> failure that left the oleo only partially extended.
> Now, how does that work with an air system ------- switch operates a
> shut-off valve??????????
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> >
> > What you describe is kind of a squat switch, which is fine if the
> > aircraft is stationary, but on a bumpy taxiway, such as grass, the
> > switch could be momentarily disengaged long enough to allow a gear
> > retraction. This is a common problem with Bonanza's and is why I dont
> > do touch and goes, because it is too easy to grab the wrong switch and
> > retract gear instead of flaps on the roll out.
> >
> > Good formation technique would require little if any full closed
> > throttle movements.
> >
> > Ernie
> >
> > On 11/18/05, Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
> <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom,
> >>
> >> Some good ideas, but I would not tie the electric valve into the
> >> throttle.
> >> Instead I would install a weight on wheels switch and tie it into that.
> >> Any
> >> weight on the gear, and the gear will not retract. This is how the
> >> military
> >> does it, and they have more experience than most anyone else.
> >>
> >> In addition, tying it in with the throttle means it is going to be
> >> opening
> >> and closing in flight, which I see as a "not so good" thing.
> >>
> >> The real issue comes into play when trying to avoid a gear up landing.
> >> Typically that is when systems are tied into the throttle so that at low
> >> power settings with the gear up, you get some kind of warning horn. The
> >> military usually accomplishes this by using angle of attack and gear
> >> position to actuate a warning horn.
> >>
> >> Obviously... at least to me.... the best system would measure the
> >> distance
> >> from the ground AND the angle of attack. I've often wondered whether a
> >> simple and cheap motion detector system could be installed that would
> >> give
> >> enough range to accomplish this. Other methods exist, such as a simple
> >> radar system, or laser, etc. The key word is cheap.
> >>
> >> Mark Bitterlich
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Tom Johnson [mailto:tomjohnson@cox.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 10:01 AM
> >> To: Yak-List@Matronics. Com
> >> Subject: Yak-List: Gear ups
> >>
> >>
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
> >>
> >> Doug:
> >> Discount for Gear Warning System: Yes (It can be added to the existing
> >> discount program).
> >> But we should be consistent about the system with the underwriter.
> >> It should be an approved system with some documentation.
> >>
> >> Would be nice if the system would prevent gear pull-ups on the ground.
> >> I recently installed a Swagelok Stainless Steel main air valve.
> >> They come in every configuration, both mechanical and electric.
> >>
> >> SO, imagine a small electric air valve on the "UP" air line for the gear.
> >> This valve only gets its little electric signal to OPEN at very high
> >> throttle position.
> >> The rest of the time it is closed and Up air cant get to the actuators.
> >> So you are on the ground at idle or even run-up power and raise the
> >> handle
> >> and Up-Air cant get to the gear.
> >> On takeoff at high throttle position, valve is open, you raise the
> >> handle,
> >> up comes the gear.
> >>
> >> Returning to land, say throttle at low position, the valve has a vent
> >> that
> >> allows Up air Out so Down air came work.
> >>
> >> Open Fire.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------
> >> Thomas Johnson
> >> Airpower Insurance, LLC
> >> 36 West Ocotillo Road
> >> Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
> >> Tel: 602-628-2701
> >> Fax: 623-321-5843
> >> E: tomjohnson@cox.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Support Your Lists This Month --
> >> Raiser. Click on find out more about Incentive Gifts provided Bookstore
> >> www.buildersbooks.com, Enterprises www.kitlog.com, and
> >> www.homebuilthelp.com!
> >>
> >>
> >> browse Subscriptions page, Chat, FAQ,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> Raiser. Click on find out more about Incentive Gifts provided Bookstore
> www.buildersbooks.com, Enterprises www.kitlog.com, and
> www.homebuilthelp.com!
>
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>
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Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
> The military and general/commercial aviation aircraft manufactures have
> the resources to come up with some system to prevent the weak link in
> the system from not putting the gear down when landing.
I don't know about you but, frankly, I have never seen one that really, really
works in all conditions. And it would actually have to put the gear down for
you, much more easily done when when the systems are electric.
Frankly, I like the KISS gear warning between flaps and gear light. Very
simple. The reason we were working on one with a Bitching Betty is that it was
going to be a part of a more comprehensive (and simple) electrical system for
the CJ.
> There is a very simple (and cheap) way to prevent this: A CHECKLIST!!!!!!!!
Amen. Good habits will work when everything else fails. After all, the problem
is the human, not the airplane.
> You could
> couple it with a pre-landing flow (GUMPS..or whatever) and then verify
> with a checklist. For those that are flying two-holers with someone in
> the backseat, ask them to verify that the gear is down and locked. If
> youre in formation, lead could call check wheels down. For those in
> single seat airplanes, go back to the flow and checklist.
Yeah, it works.
The thing that that amazes me is just how bad most checklists are with no
natural flow. Sit in the airplane and figure out how to logically,
economically, and comfortably touch and set everything. Then write it up. Tune
it to your airplane as your layout and radios will be different from the next
guy. Your checklist should reflect the differences.
> The airlines
> have adopted the checklist flow and then verify with a physical
> checklist.
Makes perfect sense and does a good job.
> It seems to work for us. Airplanes with these fancy warning
> systems have landed gear up even with the horn going off. Some just
> cancel it and then have a landing roll of about 2 feet.
Don't forget the slide lock on the gear lever. It should be in place when the
gear is down.
> Is everyone using a checklist? Is there a standardized checklist out
> there? Does it take you from pre-flight to post-flight? Cruise
> Checklist? (Temps, pressures, freqs..ect) In my airline flying, a
> checklist is golden (and a required document) and we have a checklist
> for everything! I think this may minimize the issues the group is
> having. It is a simple but tested answer to many problems we encounter.
You can lead a horse to water ...
Jeff Linebaugh did one that he and I later cleaned up and published for the
CJ6A. It covers everything (but needs updating to improve the flow).
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Ernest Martinez wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> do not archive
> If the slide was spring loaded then how would you raise the gear? You
> would need 2 hands, one to hold the slide, the other to lift the
> lever.
Hmm, I am not sure I can describe it but I pull the slide lock back and
actuate the gear lever with one movement of one hand. I think it has something
to do with me using the palm of my hand to actuate the lever which leaves my
fingers free to move the slide lock.
OTOH, if that becomes routine you will just eliminate that as a technique for
preventing inadvertent gear up on the ground.
Maybe the spring isn't such a good idea.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
I dont know about your airplane, but mine requires you to pull the
knob out in order to raise the lever.
Ernie
On 11/19/05, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> Ernest Martinez wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> >
> > do not archive
> > If the slide was spring loaded then how would you raise the gear? You
> > would need 2 hands, one to hold the slide, the other to lift the
> > lever.
>
> Hmm, I am not sure I can describe it but I pull the slide lock back and
> actuate the gear lever with one movement of one hand. I think it has something
> to do with me using the palm of my hand to actuate the lever which leaves my
> fingers free to move the slide lock.
>
> OTOH, if that becomes routine you will just eliminate that as a technique for
> preventing inadvertent gear up on the ground.
>
> Maybe the spring isn't such a good idea.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
Message 9
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Yepper, this horse is now flattened road kill.
Everyone,
If you do not have a checklist already, go to YAK 52 World to download one from
Dennis Savarese's website. Take it and mod it to your liking. Go to your office
or friendly copy center and reduce to a 9 x 6 card, laminate it...voola..you
have a checklist to help remind the carbon unit it times of brain misfires.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From:
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear Up
Doc:
Boy, do we beat a new subject to death. There must be 30-40 uploads concerning
"gear up".
speaking of KISS, just buy a Yak-52W or TW and you will have a "red" warning light
right at eye level if the gear is up and the flaps are down. It works, I
have already used the warning light.
My Best to all old Doc's
Ray
Message 10
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
The Navion has such a spring catch. Our pure hydraulics limit the
electronic aides too. You release it with your ring and little finger
while pulling out and raising the gear lever. It's an awkward motion at
first but becomes very routine to the point you don't even think about
it. It helps, as does the tactile difference between gear and flaps, but
they aren't perfect. Checklist and paranoia have worked well so far.
Greg Young
> > If the slide was spring loaded then how would you raise the
> gear? You
> > would need 2 hands, one to hold the slide, the other to lift the
> > lever.
>
> Hmm, I am not sure I can describe it but I pull the slide
> lock back and actuate the gear lever with one movement of one
> hand. I think it has something to do with me using the palm
> of my hand to actuate the lever which leaves my fingers free
> to move the slide lock.
>
> OTOH, if that becomes routine you will just eliminate that as
> a technique for preventing inadvertent gear up on the ground.
>
> Maybe the spring isn't such a good idea.
>
Message 11
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Just my $.02, For a squat switch to work , how about connecting it to a solenoid
with a shaft protruding over the gear handle replacing the manual gear handle
lock. A push to make switch button next to it would pull the shaft back allowing
you to raise the gear if the squat switch fails or you need to raise the
gear on the ground for some ungodly reason.
Also, a gear warning horn could be could be easily activated by connecting the
gear up lights circuit through a push to make switch on the throttle set a any
desired low power position. The idea is just to remind you to put the wheels
down...KISS.....John
Just my $.02, For a squat switch to work , how about connecting it to a solenoid
with a shaftprotruding over the gear handle replacing the manual gear handle
lock. A push to make switch button next to it would pull the shaft back allowing
you to raise the gear if the squat switch fails or you need to raise the gear
on the ground for some ungodly reason.
Also, a gear warning horn could be could be easily activated by connecting the
gear up lights circuit through a push to make switch on the throttle set a any
desired low power position.The idea is just to remind you to put the wheels down...KISS.....John
Message 12
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Bringing the slide lock into play as part of an overall system is an
excellent suggestion Dennis.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:dsavarese@elmore.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
".....emphasis should probably be on a system that protects against that
versus accidental on the ground raisings."
KISS method; spring load the slide lock. The gear handle can not be raised
above the neutral position with the slide lock in place. Then if one
forgets to move the slide lock when putting the gear down AND you have the
audible GEAR DOWN alarm and red light on the panel, the alarm will sound and
the light will illuminate in front of your face. Once again, I am an
advocate of using the KISS principle.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <mailto:BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Gear ups
Good question. Tom mentioned using an electrically operated valve... but
you would have to be darn careful to get exactly the right one!
To wit: You would want one that is spring loaded OPEN and only electrically
closed, so that you could always operate the gear in case of an electrical
failure. Ideally, the emergency air system should not go through this
valve.
Next, you would have to locate this valve very close to the actuator itself,
to prevent the gear from moving due to residual line pressure. Again, the
proper valve might be able to vent the line pressure when it is closed
electrically removing that requirement.
It actually is pretty "do-able". Parts shouldn't be more than a few
hundred tops.
To my way of thinking, it is much more likely to forget to put the gear DOWN
when landing, rather than to manage to raise the gear on the ground during
taxi. That said, the emphasis should probably be on a system that protects
against that versus accidental on the ground raisings.
MGB
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon [ mailto:wlannon@cablerocket.com
<mailto:wlannon@cablerocket.com> ]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
A squat switch should be set up to close the circuit only at full extension
of the oleo. Even if you were to get that much oleo displacement from a
bounce, rough ground, etc. and the switch was momentarily closed nothing
will happen unless the gear is selected up.
The squat switch would also prevent retraction in the unlikely event of a
failure that left the oleo only partially extended.
Now, how does that work with an air system ------- switch operates a
shut-off valve??????????
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> What you describe is kind of a squat switch, which is fine if the
> aircraft is stationary, but on a bumpy taxiway, such as grass, the
> switch could be momentarily disengaged long enough to allow a gear
> retraction. This is a common problem with Bonanza's and is why I dont
> do touch and goes, because it is too easy to grab the wrong switch and
> retract gear instead of flaps on the roll out.
>
> Good formation technique would require little if any full closed
> throttle movements.
>
> Ernie
>
> On 11/18/05, Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> Some good ideas, but I would not tie the electric valve into the
>> throttle.
>> Instead I would install a weight on wheels switch and tie it into that.
>> Any
>> weight on the gear, and the gear will not retract. This is how the
>> military
>> does it, and they have more experience than most anyone else.
>>
>> In addition, tying it in with the throttle means it is going to be
>> opening
>> and closing in flight, which I see as a "not so good" thing.
>>
>> The real issue comes into play when trying to avoid a gear up landing.
>> Typically that is when systems are tied into the throttle so that at low
>> power settings with the gear up, you get some kind of warning horn. The
>> military usually accomplishes this by using angle of attack and gear
>> position to actuate a warning horn.
>>
>> Obviously... at least to me.... the best system would measure the
>> distance
>> from the ground AND the angle of attack. I've often wondered whether a
>> simple and cheap motion detector system could be installed that would
>> give
>> enough range to accomplish this. Other methods exist, such as a simple
>> radar system, or laser, etc. The key word is cheap.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Johnson [ mailto:tomjohnson@cox.net <mailto:tomjohnson@cox.net>
]
>> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 10:01 AM
>> To: Yak-List@Matronics. Com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Gear ups
>>
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
>>
>> Doug:
>> Discount for Gear Warning System: Yes (It can be added to the existing
>> discount program).
>> But we should be consistent about the system with the underwriter.
>> It should be an approved system with some documentation.
>>
>> Would be nice if the system would prevent gear pull-ups on the ground.
>> I recently installed a Swagelok Stainless Steel main air valve.
>> They come in every configuration, both mechanical and electric.
>>
>> SO, imagine a small electric air valve on the "UP" air line for the gear.
>> This valve only gets its little electric signal to OPEN at very high
>> throttle position.
>> The rest of the time it is closed and Up air cant get to the actuators.
>> So you are on the ground at idle or even run-up power and raise the
>> handle
>> and Up-Air cant get to the gear.
>> On takeoff at high throttle position, valve is open, you raise the
>> handle,
>> up comes the gear.
>>
>> Returning to land, say throttle at low position, the valve has a vent
>> that
>> allows Up air Out so Down air came work.
>>
>> Open Fire.
>>
>> ---------------------------
>> Thomas Johnson
>> Airpower Insurance, LLC
>> 36 West Ocotillo Road
>> Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
>> Tel: 602-628-2701
>> Fax: 623-321-5843
>> E: tomjohnson@cox.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Message 13
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Except for YAKS's that do not have flaps.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:dsavarese@elmore.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
<dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Tom,
What's the definition of "approved" and who does the "approving"? Does
"approve" = expensive? IMHO if one were to incorporate the "small, electric
air valve" as described, the system just became far more complicated than it
ever should be and with potentially another failure point. Audible and
visual alarms when the flaps come down and the gear is not down covers
probably 98% of all potential screw ups. To gain the additional 2% is cost
prohibitive.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Johnson" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Gear ups
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
>
> Doug:
> Discount for Gear Warning System: Yes (It can be added to the existing
> discount program).
> But we should be consistent about the system with the underwriter.
> It should be an approved system with some documentation.
>
> Would be nice if the system would prevent gear pull-ups on the ground.
> I recently installed a Swagelok Stainless Steel main air valve.
> They come in every configuration, both mechanical and electric.
>
> SO, imagine a small electric air valve on the "UP" air line for the gear.
> This valve only gets its little electric signal to OPEN at very high
> throttle position.
> The rest of the time it is closed and Up air cant get to the actuators.
> So you are on the ground at idle or even run-up power and raise the handle
> and Up-Air cant get to the gear.
> On takeoff at high throttle position, valve is open, you raise the handle,
> up comes the gear.
>
> Returning to land, say throttle at low position, the valve has a vent that
> allows Up air Out so Down air came work.
>
> Open Fire.
>
> ---------------------------
> Thomas Johnson
> Airpower Insurance, LLC
> 36 West Ocotillo Road
> Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
> Tel: 602-628-2701
> Fax: 623-321-5843
> E: tomjohnson@cox.net
>
>
>
Message 14
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Getting a Weight on Wheels switch or a Weight off Wheels switch (the
difference is simply defined as which condition CLOSES a set of switch
contacts) to work on our YAKS and CJ's would indeed be tricky due to the
issue you mention.
As far as these switches having nothing to do with a gear up warning system,
that depends on your definition of a "gear up warning system". If you are
on the ground and try to put the gear up, a WOW switch is indeed part of the
system. If you are in flight with the gear up and forget to put it down,
no... it is not part of the system. Most of the current gear warning
systems in military aircraft are tied to both flaps and angle of attack, or
just flaps. If the flaps are down and the angle of attack reaches that in
the range of "landing" and the gear is not down... you get a warning. In
another case, the gear warning is tied into the flaps and the RADAR
Altimeter. The new military rarely ties anything into the throttle, other
than flaperon pop-up.
Although I concur that every system has flaws, I maintain that a Ground
Proximity Warning system is the best of all worlds, simply because even if
you are not over hard terrain until mere seconds before you land, you still
have at least one or two seconds ... and that is plenty for me. If I heard
a horn go off that ONLY goes off when I have done something very stupid and
immediately threatening... I tend to react without thinking. Two seconds is
plenty of time to close the throttle and pull back on the stick, and with
the power and climb rate of our CJ's and YAKS, that translates to a climb
and not a gear up.
I guess I am being a tad argumentative Walt... sorry. Your points are
accurate and well taken. In the end it comes down to which system the
individual thinks is the best for him or her. The only thing that really
SHOULD spark an argument is if and when some insurance expert decides that
the way that is good for him, is the way it MUST be for everyone else in
order to get a discount.
Hmmmm.
Best Regards,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon [mailto:wlannon@cablerocket.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Just remembered -- A squat switch will not work on the CJ (or, presumably,
the Yak) since the oleo's are at full extension while parked. Oh well!
The squat switch is both a weight on wheels AND a weight off wheels switch.
The primary function is to prevent ground retraction. On some aircraft it is
a multi-function switch which may, in addition to de-energizing gear
retract, energize or de-energize many other systems. It has absolutely
nothing to do with a gear up warning system.
The old military standard gear up warning system that I will install in the
CJ includes a push button or spring return toggle switch that instantly
opens the horn circuit and kills the horn. The horn is activated with the
gear up and the throttle closed to a pre-set manifold pressure position.
With the kill switch circuit energized to kill the horn opening the throttle
above the pre-set position will de-energize that circuit and re-energize the
horn circuit to the throttle switch. The kill switch could be on the stick
grip so you would hear the horn for a fraction of a second only when closing
the throttle.
The system DOES NOT extend the gear. It simply reminds you that it is up.
No system is perfect or fool proof.
The throttle position system could fail you on a power up, low, drag in
approach where the throttle is not closed to the pre-set position until too
late.
The flap position system could fail you in a nasty cross wind or gust
situation where you decided on a no flap landing.
The GPW system could fail you at the nice mountainside strip where, on
approach until a few seconds before touchdown, your altitude above ground is
500 or 1000 ft. We have one of these we visit every year and there are many
more in all mountainous areas.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> Thats precisely the issue, many Bonanza owners have pulled their gear
> handle thinking it was the flaps while taxi'ing (very common in
> Bonanza's since Beech decided to swap the positioning of the levers
> from one year to the next.), then hit a bump, and viola' gear up.
>
> Ernie
>
> On 11/18/05, Walter Lannon <wlannon@cablerocket.com> wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>>
>> A squat switch should be set up to close the circuit only at full
>> extension
>> of the oleo. Even if you were to get that much oleo displacement from a
>> bounce, rough ground, etc. and the switch was momentarily closed nothing
>> will happen unless the gear is selected up.
>> The squat switch would also prevent retraction in the unlikely event of a
>> failure that left the oleo only partially extended.
>> Now, how does that work with an air system ------- switch operates a
>> shut-off valve??????????
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
>>
>>
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > What you describe is kind of a squat switch, which is fine if the
>> > aircraft is stationary, but on a bumpy taxiway, such as grass, the
>> > switch could be momentarily disengaged long enough to allow a gear
>> > retraction. This is a common problem with Bonanza's and is why I dont
>> > do touch and goes, because it is too easy to grab the wrong switch and
>> > retract gear instead of flaps on the roll out.
>> >
>> > Good formation technique would require little if any full closed
>> > throttle movements.
>> >
>> > Ernie
>> >
>> > On 11/18/05, Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Tom,
>> >>
>> >> Some good ideas, but I would not tie the electric valve into the
>> >> throttle.
>> >> Instead I would install a weight on wheels switch and tie it into
>> >> that.
>> >> Any
>> >> weight on the gear, and the gear will not retract. This is how the
>> >> military
>> >> does it, and they have more experience than most anyone else.
>> >>
>> >> In addition, tying it in with the throttle means it is going to be
>> >> opening
>> >> and closing in flight, which I see as a "not so good" thing.
>> >>
>> >> The real issue comes into play when trying to avoid a gear up landing.
>> >> Typically that is when systems are tied into the throttle so that at
>> >> low
>> >> power settings with the gear up, you get some kind of warning horn.
>> >> The
>> >> military usually accomplishes this by using angle of attack and gear
>> >> position to actuate a warning horn.
>> >>
>> >> Obviously... at least to me.... the best system would measure the
>> >> distance
>> >> from the ground AND the angle of attack. I've often wondered whether
>> >> a
>> >> simple and cheap motion detector system could be installed that would
>> >> give
>> >> enough range to accomplish this. Other methods exist, such as a
>> >> simple
>> >> radar system, or laser, etc. The key word is cheap.
>> >>
>> >> Mark Bitterlich
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Tom Johnson [mailto:tomjohnson@cox.net]
>> >> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 10:01 AM
>> >> To: Yak-List@Matronics. Com
>> >> Subject: Yak-List: Gear ups
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tom Johnson" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
>> >>
>> >> Doug:
>> >> Discount for Gear Warning System: Yes (It can be added to the
>> >> existing
>> >> discount program).
>> >> But we should be consistent about the system with the underwriter.
>> >> It should be an approved system with some documentation.
>> >>
>> >> Would be nice if the system would prevent gear pull-ups on the ground.
>> >> I recently installed a Swagelok Stainless Steel main air valve.
>> >> They come in every configuration, both mechanical and electric.
>> >>
>> >> SO, imagine a small electric air valve on the "UP" air line for the
>> >> gear.
>> >> This valve only gets its little electric signal to OPEN at very high
>> >> throttle position.
>> >> The rest of the time it is closed and Up air cant get to the
>> >> actuators.
>> >> So you are on the ground at idle or even run-up power and raise the
>> >> handle
>> >> and Up-Air cant get to the gear.
>> >> On takeoff at high throttle position, valve is open, you raise the
>> >> handle,
>> >> up comes the gear.
>> >>
>> >> Returning to land, say throttle at low position, the valve has a vent
>> >> that
>> >> allows Up air Out so Down air came work.
>> >>
>> >> Open Fire.
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------
>> >> Thomas Johnson
>> >> Airpower Insurance, LLC
>> >> 36 West Ocotillo Road
>> >> Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
>> >> Tel: 602-628-2701
>> >> Fax: 623-321-5843
>> >> E: tomjohnson@cox.net
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Support Your Lists This Month --
>> >> Raiser. Click on find out more about Incentive Gifts provided
>> >> Bookstore
>> >> www.buildersbooks.com, Enterprises www.kitlog.com, and
>> >> www.homebuilthelp.com!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> browse Subscriptions page, Chat, FAQ,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Gear Safety Systems for the CJ |
Problems unique to the CJ....
Conventional Squat switches won't work...as the gear struts are normally
fully extended.
No Flap light to tie in to...although a squat switch could be easily added
here.
A large part of the issue is the gear up on the ground issue....
IDEA: I have an air pressure activated switch to control my "air" hobbs.
The hobbs only runs when there is positive air pressure from the pitot tube.
What about using a similar switch, with TJs electrically operated air valve
to prevent gear ups on the ground. It would disable retracting the gear
until XX kts...
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
Message 16
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Wow... that's interesting too! Ernie, my 50 requires you to push the end of
the gear handle IN in order to raise it.
I had no idea there were different types of gear handle systems!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Ernest Martinez [mailto:erniel29@gmail.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear ups
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
I dont know about your airplane, but mine requires you to pull the
knob out in order to raise the lever.
Ernie
On 11/19/05, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> Ernest Martinez wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> >
> > do not archive
> > If the slide was spring loaded then how would you raise the gear? You
> > would need 2 hands, one to hold the slide, the other to lift the
> > lever.
>
> Hmm, I am not sure I can describe it but I pull the slide lock back and
> actuate the gear lever with one movement of one hand. I think it has
something
> to do with me using the palm of my hand to actuate the lever which leaves
my
> fingers free to move the slide lock.
>
> OTOH, if that becomes routine you will just eliminate that as a technique
for
> preventing inadvertent gear up on the ground.
>
> Maybe the spring isn't such a good idea.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Gear Safety Systems for the CJ |
Another great idea. Very safe, easily implemented plus cheap.
I agree that following a checklist is the best of all ideas.
I also think that technology is a good thing and if kept to the KISS level,
is worth at least considering. Warning systems have been ignored resulting
in gear up landings. So have checklists. Everything I can do to stack the
deck in my favor is worth thinking about IMHO, and if it also results in an
insurance deduction.... you're darn toot'in I'll look into it VERY
seriously. Money talks... nobody walks.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Linebaugh [mailto:jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net]
Subject: Yak-List: Gear Safety Systems for the CJ
Problems unique to the CJ....
Conventional Squat switches won't work...as the gear struts are normally
fully extended.
No Flap light to tie in to...although a squat switch could be easily added
here.
A large part of the issue is the gear up on the ground issue....
IDEA: I have an air pressure activated switch to control my "air" hobbs.
The hobbs only runs when there is positive air pressure from the pitot tube.
What about using a similar switch, with TJs electrically operated air valve
to prevent gear ups on the ground. It would disable retracting the gear
until XX kts...
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net <mailto:jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
<http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
Message 18
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Here is a picture of the CJ6 prototype.
Bushi Cheng is at the far left. You still think it was a copy of the
Yak18A? And have you taken a look at the new USAF Texan 2? That wing and tail
layout looks an awful lot like a CJ's.
It's Saturday night. I've had a few drinks at our airpark cutthroat lawn
bowling party, (I lost to the champ just prior to the final) and I thought I'd
start another fight. :-}
I guess I'm a fatalist because I believe all men will have the gear in the
wrong position at some time in their fly careers. It took me 23,000 hours to
bend my airplane. If that scares you and makes you gun shy for a year - 2
years or the rest of your flying career - good. But still, no matter what-
there will always be that chance.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Message 19
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Pappy,
I dunno Pappy, looks like a bunch of Chnese standing infront of shanghi'd T-34
A to me.
Yeh, the T-6 II does look like a Pilatus...maybe because it is.
Sorry Pappy, could leave this one on the table:->)).
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From:
Subject: Yak-List: cj6A prototype
Here is a picture of the CJ6 prototype.
Bushi Cheng is at the far left. You still think it was a copy of the Yak18A?
And have you taken a look at the new USAF Texan 2? That wing and tail layout
looks an awful lot like a CJ's.
It's Saturday night. I've had a few drinks at our airpark cutthroat lawn bowling
party, (I lost to the champ just prior to the final) and I thought I'd start
another fight. :-}
I guess I'm a fatalist because I believe all men will have the gear in the wrong
position at some time in their fly careers. It took me 23,000 hours to bend
my airplane. If that scares you and makes you gun shy for a year - 2 years or
the rest of your flying career - good. But still, no matter what- there will
always be that chance.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: cj6A prototype |
Pappy
That looks like a flat engine with a left turning prop?
Looks more like a T34?----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:49 PM
Subject: Yak-List: cj6A prototype
Here is a picture of the CJ6 prototype.
Bushi Cheng is at the far left. You still think it was a copy of the Yak18A?
And have you taken a look at the new USAF Texan 2? That wing and tail layout
looks an awful lot like a CJ's.
It's Saturday night. I've had a few drinks at our airpark cutthroat lawn bowling
party, (I lost to the champ just prior to the final) and I thought I'd start
another fight. :-}
I guess I'm a fatalist because I believe all men will have the gear in the wrong
position at some time in their fly careers. It took me 23,000 hours to bend
my airplane. If that scares you and makes you gun shy for a year - 2 years
or the rest of your flying career - good. But still, no matter what- there will
always be that chance.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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Message 21
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--> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
Pappy/Doc/Others,
The question has been brought up several times how, two independent groups (Russia
& US) can have designes that are so similiar. The answer is engineering principals,
dictate what has to be done in order to accomplish the task.
Fly Safe
John Fischer
>
>
>Pappy,
>I dunno Pappy, looks like a bunch of Chnese standing infront of shanghi'd T-34
A to me.
>Yeh, the T-6 II does look like a Pilatus...maybe because it is.
>Sorry Pappy, could leave this one on the table:->)).
>Doc
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From:
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Sent: 11/19/2005 9:49:55 PM
>Subject: Yak-List: cj6A prototype
>
>
>Here is a picture of the CJ6 prototype.
>
>
>Bushi Cheng is at the far left. You still think it was a copy of the Yak18A?
And have you taken a look at the new USAF Texan 2? That wing and tail layout
looks an awful lot like a CJ's.
>
>It's Saturday night. I've had a few drinks at our airpark cutthroat lawn bowling
party, (I lost to the champ just prior to the final) and I thought I'd start
another fight. :-}
>
>I guess I'm a fatalist because I believe all men will have the gear in the
wrong position at some time in their fly careers. It took me 23,000 hours to
bend my airplane. If that scares you and makes you gun shy for a year - 2 years
or the rest of your flying career - good. But still, no matter what- there
will always be that chance.
>
>Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
Attachment: image11.jpg>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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