Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:20 AM - Batteries (Richard Goode)
2. 07:01 AM - electrical failure (jandefinley@comcast.net)
3. 07:34 AM - Dynon (was: electrical failure) (Brian Lloyd)
4. 07:42 AM - Re: Batteries (Steve Dalton)
5. 08:08 AM - Re: Batteries (Brian Lloyd)
6. 08:28 AM - Re: Batteries (Roger Kemp)
7. 08:59 AM - partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Brian Lloyd)
8. 10:41 AM - Re: Batteries (Francis Butler)
9. 11:25 AM - Re: Batteries (Sarah Tobin)
10. 12:37 PM - Only Seven More Shopping Days! (SWP013@aol.com)
11. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Batteries ()
12. 01:47 PM - Re: Batteries (Francis Butler)
13. 06:27 PM - Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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Do the Romanians not put a vacuum pump drive on their M14Ps on new 52TWs?
Richard Goode
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Mob: +44 (0) 7768 610389
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
dangerous content by the http://www.invictawiz.com
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
Message 2
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| Subject: | electrical failure |
Here's another thought....I have installed a DYNON D-10 EFIS in my IAR823. This instrument fits a 31/8 panel hole and has 10 presentations...all you need. It also has an internal battery that can provide up to 4 hours operation. It costs about $2200.Check out www.dynonavionics.com for more info. They have a new D-100 with a 7in. display. It's worth a look. I love it!..John
Here's another thought....I have installed a DYNON D-10 EFIS in my IAR823. This instrument fits a 31/8 panel hole and has 10 presentations...all you need. It alsohas an internal battery that can provide up to 4 hours operation. It costs about $2200.Check out www.dynonavionics.com for more info. They have a new D-100 with a 7in. display. It's worth a look.I love it!..John
Message 3
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| Subject: | Dynon (was: electrical failure) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
jandefinley@comcast.net wrote:
> Here's another thought....I have installed a DYNON D-10 EFIS in my
> IAR823. This instrument fits a 31/8 panel hole and has 10
> presentations...all you need. It also has an internal battery that can
> provide up to 4 hours operation. It costs about $2200.Check out
> www.dynonavionics.com <http://www.dynonavionics.com> for more info. They
> have a new D-100 with a 7in. display. It's worth a look. I love it!..John
There are a lot of people who like the Dynon. It appears to be a pretty
good instrument.
OTOH, it would be nice to have an electrical system that has some
resiliency built-in so that other electrical things, e.g. comm and nav
radios, will still work. That shouldn't be hard to do. When I started
the restoration of The Project I completely removed and discarded the
Chinese electrical system. Not only is it heavy (the wire alone is over
100 lbs) but it has a number of single points of failure. The new
electrical system may only have one alternator but it will have multiple
paths from the battery to my critical equipment with enough battery
capacity to allow me to safely complete an IFR flight to my destination.
WRT the Dynon, I am going to try to get my FSDO to allow me to put one
in for the right seat of the Aztec. As it is not part of the pilot's
instrument scan I am hoping they will allow it as ancillary installed
equipment. After that I am hoping they will let me install one as a
backup attitude indicator to replace my needle-ball. I would keep all my
other steam gauges including the vacuum AI (the autopilot needs that).
Hey, do you guys think I might get this camel inside the tent? I am not
going to hold my breath.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve Dalton" <sdalton@goeaston.net>
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Another question on this subject: does the M14P have a pad for a
standard vacuum pump? The reason I ask is that B&C has a really nice 20A
alternator that mounts on a standard vacuum pump pad and can provide
backup power for critical electrics should the main electrical system
fail. This strikes me as a *really* good idea for an all-electric
panel.<--
Brian,
The -52TW's use a standard vacuum pump. The old Russian gyros are
replaced with lighter standard vacuum gyros.
The Romanians make an adapter that bolts onto the M-14P, onto which a
standard vacuum pump can be mounted. I'm quite sure George Coy could
order one for you.
Cheer,
Steve Dalton
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Steve Dalton wrote:
> The -52TW's use a standard vacuum pump. The old Russian gyros are
> replaced with lighter standard vacuum gyros.
Ah, another really bad idea. Vacuum gyros are just a bad idea in general
given how unreliable vacuum pumps are and how reliable the new crop of
electronic gyros are. Oh, and a second alternator can power not only
your gyros but also your radios. More flexibility.
I just can't imagine anyone installing a vacuum system in a new airplane.
> The Romanians make an adapter that bolts onto the M-14P, onto which a
> standard vacuum pump can be mounted. I'm quite sure George Coy could
> order one for you.
In that case I can add a backup alternator to the M14P to run my
critical electrical stuff like my comm and nav radios and my PFD.
Thanks!
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 6
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Dude,
You can fly/recover an aircraft with nothing more than AS, Altimeter, and
whiskey compass. The ball is not electric and not it does not give you rate
of turn. But a second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell you how
fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass.
As was always taught in pilot training and at instrument refresher courses
throughout my AF career/ civilian included, believe the instruments. Ignore
your sensations from you inner ear and the "seat of your pants".
From the there I was file: Departing Luke AFB as the weather bird (single
ship-Doc needed a sortie) to check the south Tac ranges for student
training. Weather was 800 and 1, above mins. 5 min after TO, lost DC buses
A and B in then an F-15. All we had was the standby peanut (bat powered),
AS and Altimeter for primary instruments. Did have radio from bat power.
Did a PAR back into Luke.
viperdoc
> [Original Message]
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 12/15/2005 7:33:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Batteries
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> Roger Doc Kemp wrote:
> > Me to Richard. I personally don't...Dennis would not let me near my YAK
> > if I did.
> > I think the point of this EP was missed. Did the battery explode or not?
> > Brian is on the money as he usually always is.
> > I disagree with the you are in deep kimshi (sp) if you are IFR and had
> > to shut off the Gen. and the Bat. (which is the first thing to do in
> > this EP). The next is land as soon as possible. The battery will only
> > give 30 min of power, if it is still functional but I doubt that since
> > the Amp meter is pegged on discharge.
>
> Well, it was actually pegged on charge (actually pegged on volts
> indicating WAY high volts. That is the real clue to the runaway generator.
>
> > You are going to loose the DG and
> > your ADI.
>
> You are going to lose ALL your gyros as your needle-ball is electrical
> too. Look Ma! No gyros!
>
> > Since they are both electrical. As well as the Radios are
> > lost, since you shut off your Bat. in this do you have an electrical
> > short / fire, generator failure, or did the battery blow up senario.
>
> With the generator dumping full output into the batt the odds are pretty
> good for spectacular failure.
>
> > HEFOE hand signals are definately a player if you are in formation.
> > You still have the turn and bank (slip) indicator,
>
> Nope.
>
> > the altimeter,
> > airspeed and whiskey compass. So if you are IFR, you are now partial
> > panel.
>
> Worse. No gyros at all. You ARE going to DIE.
>
> > Most of us have a battery powered GPS. A few of us have a hand
> > held radio we carry also. Now you can do what you are supposed to do
in
> > any aircraft emergency...fly the airplane.
> > Spinning through the clouds? Have you ever had Vertigo? Do that and I
> > garrentee you a superb case of it.
>
> Dude, you are going to get vertigo anyway as you have NO GYROS. The
> advantage of a spin is that it is a stable steady-state maneuver with a
> reasonable rate of almost vertical descent. If you break out with say a
> 1000' ceiling you now have visual and can recover visually from the
> spin. The spin is slow and stable. A spiral can tear your airplane up as
> the G forces and airspeed are way high.
>
> Someone help me here.
>
> > You will feel like a "Giant Hand" has
> > control of your aircraft and no matter what you do it will not let you
> > fly the A/C. It only takes 3-5 seconds of angular movement for the
> > endolymph (the fluid in the inner ear) to stop moving. The hair cells
> > and cyrstals in the saccule of the semi-cicular canal (oriented for
> > Roll, pitch, and yaw axis) stop moving despite constant angular motion.
> > When you try to stop the spin by rudder opposite rotation that starts
> > the endolymph moving again. This time in the opposite direction. You
> > then think you have started to roll in the opposite direction so to
> > correct, you put yourself right back into the spin or spiral (AKA-
> > graveyard spiral).
>
> Right. This is why you cannot fly IFR without gyros. Spin is slow and
> stable and the airplane will stay in it steady state without the pilot
> having to do anything. Think about it.
>
> > If spinning through the clouds is my only option, I
> > think I would opt for the silk let down and step over the side.
>
> That is certainly an option and a good one if you are IFR and end up
> with no electrical at all in a CJ or Yak-52. OTOH, if you know the
> ceiling is high enough you might opt to save the airplane. Just a thought.
>
> > Agree with calling Knock it Off. but in an emergency, the emergency
> > aircraft takes the lead.
>
> Uh, that is what I was trying to do. Remember #3 has a problem but
> neither #1, #2, nor #4 know it. No radio, right? How does #3 get the
> message to anyone? He has to get one of them to come up close enough to
> look at him. I make that happen by having #3 rock wings and start the
> rejoin. #4 is #3 wingman, right? #4 does what #3 tells him to, right? If
> #3 starts a rejoin, #4 will rejoin. Now #4 is close enough to see the
> HEFO sign.
>
> > It becomes the responsibility of the rest of
> > the flight to back the emergency a/c up on the checklist and help with
> > radio calls. Only if IFR does 2 or 4 stay on the wing until below the
> > weather, stabilized, and then the lead is passed back to the Emergency
> > aircraft. The emergency is handled as an element. If in a 4 ship, the
> > other two a/c are sameway..sameday unless called on for backup.
>
> The problem is how to let the rest of the flight know you have a
> problem. No electrical. No radio. Somehow you have to get at least one
> other to know. He can then tell the world.
>
> I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why, in this scenario
> with #3 having the problem, how having #3 recover #4 on his wing and
> then HEFO and pass the lead is NOT the right answer.
>
> Sometimes I think you guys try to make this stuff harder than it is.
>
> Oh, and I am still looking for how to help #4 if it is his battery that
> goes BANG. Ideas?
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Kemp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Dude,
> You can fly/recover an aircraft with nothing more than AS, Altimeter, and
> whiskey compass. The ball is not electric and not it does not give you rate
> of turn. But a second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell you how
> fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass.
Uh, not in IFR conditions you can't. Actually I am going to say this a
bit more strongly.
YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
You need at least one gyro and it can be as simple as a rate gyro
(needle-ball or turn coordinator). Your whiskey compass will stop, speed
up, and even reverse as a function of magnetic dip. Without at least one
gyro you can't keep the airplane upright. Sorry.
Ah, I bet you are thinking of your magnetically-slaved heading
indicator. That too is a gyro and will provide stabilized turn
information. You *can* keep an airplane upright and flying with just
ASI, Alt, and DG.
Tell you what. Let's go get in a sim and cover all the gyros but leave
you the ASI, alt, VSI, whiskey compass, and the ball. (Hell, I will let
you have all the engine instruments you want.) You fly. Let's see how
long the airplane keeps flying. Better still, we can do it in the real
thing so you get all those false vestibular signals. That should make
the end come a lot sooner.
> As was always taught in pilot training and at instrument refresher courses
> throughout my AF career/ civilian included, believe the instruments. Ignore
> your sensations from you inner ear and the "seat of your pants".
>>From the there I was file: Departing Luke AFB as the weather bird (single
> ship-Doc needed a sortie) to check the south Tac ranges for student
> training. Weather was 800 and 1, above mins. 5 min after TO, lost DC buses
> A and B in then an F-15. All we had was the standby peanut (bat powered),
> AS and Altimeter for primary instruments. Did have radio from bat power.
> Did a PAR back into Luke.
But you had that peanut AI and that is what really saved your ass. If
you had no gyros and you were IFR you would now be either dead or a
member of the caterpillar club.
PAR? Real men still call it GCA. ;-)
I used to love GCA. As a kid I used to go fly practice GCA whenever I
could. March used to let me do it and I would always fly one to Calgary
after flying the AN Adcock range up at Cranbrook going over the Rockies.
This was many moons ago.
But I digress.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Francis Butler" <francis_butler@msn.com>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Dude
If you were IMC, I would bet my last dollar that without that peanut gyro
the US taxpayers would have been scratching an F-15 from inventory.
Airpseed, altitude and wiskey compass does not make for an IMC aircraft, no
way no how.
F. Butler
(not a real doctor, but I could play one on TV)
>From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Batteries
>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:25:35 -0600
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
>Dude,
>You can fly/recover an aircraft with nothing more than AS, Altimeter, and
>whiskey compass. The ball is not electric and not it does not give you rate
>of turn. But a second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell you how
>fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass.
>As was always taught in pilot training and at instrument refresher courses
>throughout my AF career/ civilian included, believe the instruments. Ignore
>your sensations from you inner ear and the "seat of your pants".
>From the there I was file: Departing Luke AFB as the weather bird (single
>ship-Doc needed a sortie) to check the south Tac ranges for student
>training. Weather was 800 and 1, above mins. 5 min after TO, lost DC buses
>A and B in then an F-15. All we had was the standby peanut (bat powered),
>AS and Altimeter for primary instruments. Did have radio from bat power.
>Did a PAR back into Luke.
>viperdoc
>
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
I don't know of any C172 or any other basic IFR training a/c that has a back
up attitude indicator. It is most certainly possible and oh by the
way...expected. When you can perform partial panel NDB holding at the
foothills of the Rockies, with a 30 kt xwind at night and have complete SA,
then you can call yourself an instrument pilot. Oh yeah, that is what my
primary instrument IP made me do. Thanks Ricky B.
Capt Sarah "Smash" Tobin
>From: "Francis Butler" <francis_butler@msn.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Batteries
>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:41:22 -0600
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Francis Butler" <francis_butler@msn.com>
>
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>Dude
>If you were IMC, I would bet my last dollar that without that peanut gyro
>the US taxpayers would have been scratching an F-15 from inventory.
>Airpseed, altitude and wiskey compass does not make for an IMC aircraft, no
>way no how.
>
>F. Butler
>(not a real doctor, but I could play one on TV)
>
>
>>From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Batteries
>>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:25:35 -0600
>>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>>Dude,
>>You can fly/recover an aircraft with nothing more than AS, Altimeter, and
>>whiskey compass. The ball is not electric and not it does not give you
>>rate
>>of turn. But a second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell you how
>>fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass.
>>As was always taught in pilot training and at instrument refresher courses
>>throughout my AF career/ civilian included, believe the instruments.
>>Ignore
>>your sensations from you inner ear and the "seat of your pants".
>>From the there I was file: Departing Luke AFB as the weather bird (single
>>ship-Doc needed a sortie) to check the south Tac ranges for student
>>training. Weather was 800 and 1, above mins. 5 min after TO, lost DC buses
>>A and B in then an F-15. All we had was the standby peanut (bat powered),
>>AS and Altimeter for primary instruments. Did have radio from bat power.
>>Did a PAR back into Luke.
>>viperdoc
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Only Seven More Shopping Days! |
Yakksters!
What do you really want for Christmas this year! How about a 1991 Yak-52!
N444YK is still for sale. Contact me off list for pics and specs.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Sam "SPUD" Patellos
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: <eyeballs@cox.net>
My old, grizzled instrument instructor showed me that you can keep your wings level
using the whiskey compass. If you turn to a heading of south before your
gyros fail completely, the compass will exagerate any turn that you start. Not
of much help if you need to turn to find VMC but it is like capturing the squirrel
in your house by placing a bucket over him. It gives you a place to sit
while you think of what you are going to do next.
Eb
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Francis Butler" <francis_butler@msn.com>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Smash
The most basic IFR partial panel training consists of airspeed indicator,
altimeter and turn coordinator. Been there done that. Take out the turn
coordinator (a gyro), and you too will be a smoking hole. I really doubt
your instructor took you down to only airspeed, altitude and a NDB in IMC
conditions, I bet you also had the turn coordinator for use as well. If
anyone wants to prove this theory of total SA in IMC with only an airspeed
indicator and altimeter, I would like to watch. From the ground. I will
bring a large broom to sweep up the mess.
Being this is a Yak list, I'll mention Yaks. My Yak 50 will more than
likely be for sale in 06, 1985 model, 550 hours, hoffmann 3 blade. Lots of
spares including gear legs, main fuel tank, aux tank, generator, tach gen,
shutter ring, tailwheel, tires, tailwheel strut, complete 52 parts kit, yak
jacks ect..... Will not separate spares from aircraft. Haven't set a price
yet but would not turn down an outragous offer. Extra 300l on the way.
F. Butler
om: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Batteries
>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:24:54 -0700
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
>
>I don't know of any C172 or any other basic IFR training a/c that has a
>back up attitude indicator. It is most certainly possible and oh by the
>way...expected. When you can perform partial panel NDB holding at the
>foothills of the Rockies, with a 30 kt xwind at night and have complete SA,
>then you can call yourself an instrument pilot. Oh yeah, that is what my
>primary instrument IP made me do. Thanks Ricky B.
>
>Capt Sarah "Smash" Tobin
>
>
>>From: "Francis Butler" <francis_butler@msn.com>
>>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Batteries
>>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:41:22 -0600
>>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Francis Butler" <francis_butler@msn.com>
>>
>>
>>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>Dude
>>If you were IMC, I would bet my last dollar that without that peanut gyro
>>the US taxpayers would have been scratching an F-15 from inventory.
>>Airpseed, altitude and wiskey compass does not make for an IMC aircraft,
>>no way no how.
>>
>>F. Butler
>>(not a real doctor, but I could play one on TV)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Batteries
>>>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:25:35 -0600
>>>
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>>
>>>Dude,
>>>You can fly/recover an aircraft with nothing more than AS, Altimeter, and
>>>whiskey compass. The ball is not electric and not it does not give you
>>>rate
>>>of turn. But a second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell you how
>>>fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass.
>>>As was always taught in pilot training and at instrument refresher
>>>courses
>>>throughout my AF career/ civilian included, believe the instruments.
>>>Ignore
>>>your sensations from you inner ear and the "seat of your pants".
>>>From the there I was file: Departing Luke AFB as the weather bird (single
>>>ship-Doc needed a sortie) to check the south Tac ranges for student
>>>training. Weather was 800 and 1, above mins. 5 min after TO, lost DC
>>>buses
>>>A and B in then an F-15. All we had was the standby peanut (bat powered),
>>>AS and Altimeter for primary instruments. Did have radio from bat power.
>>>Did a PAR back into Luke.
>>>viperdoc
>>>
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>_________________________________________________________________
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sarah Tobin wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
>
> I don't know of any C172 or any other basic IFR training a/c that has a
> back up attitude indicator. It is most certainly possible and oh by the
> way...expected. When you can perform partial panel NDB holding at the
> foothills of the Rockies, with a 30 kt xwind at night and have complete
> SA, then you can call yourself an instrument pilot. Oh yeah, that is
> what my primary instrument IP made me do. Thanks Ricky B.
You know what, I bet you could use an ADF as a stabilized heading
indicator. (And, no, I am not talking about using the RMI compass card
but the needle itself.) It has no dip and you might be able to keep an
airplane upright with a ball and an ADF to tell you if you are in a turn
or not. That would be something to try in a sim.
But, yeah, partial panel to me means needle-ball and airspeed. We can
throw in an altimeter and whiskey compass too just for grins.
Ever done a no-gyro GCA? They still expect you to have a needle-ball or
a turn coordinator.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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