---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/18/05: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:32 AM - Re: Sleepless in DE. (Brian Lloyd) 2. 05:23 AM - A Very Merry Christmas (FamilyGage@aol.com) 3. 06:51 AM - Re: Sleepless in DE. (Roger Kemp) 4. 07:14 AM - Re: Sleepless in DE. (Brian Lloyd) 5. 10:22 AM - Re: A Very Merry Christmas (Frank Haertlein) 6. 11:15 AM - Re: Sleepless in DE. (Roger Kemp) 7. 01:53 PM - favor (cjpilot710@aol.com) 8. 02:53 PM - Re: Sleepless in DE. (Jon Boede) 9. 03:01 PM - New at the store (ByronMFox@aol.com) 10. 07:54 PM - Re: Sleepless in DE. (Brian Lloyd) 11. 09:12 PM - Re: partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Cliff Umscheid) 12. 09:34 PM - Re: favor (E R) 13. 09:50 PM - Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Sarah Tobin) 14. 10:00 PM - Re: favor...oops! (E R) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:02 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sleepless in DE. --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: > I never will install an ADF. I personally think they are dangerous. > Too many times as a navigator, and copilot in my early days, I watched > the needle point to the nearest CB or the needle "hunting" that even in > the best conditions, averaging a bearing was frustrating as hell for me. Hmm. I am one of those who wants everything. Not long ago (earlier this year) I was flying back from St. Thomas when the annunciator for the GPS came on with the "No Navigation for You" light. I was feet-wet between the NW coast of Hispaniola and Great Inagua, my fuel stop. But I wasn't particularly worried as I had been receiving the NDB at Great Inagua on the ADF since St. Thomas (500 nm). (And Great Inagua is a pretty big target.) I tracked it inbound, steady as a rock, landed and picked up fuel. I then tracked that NDB outbound for over 100 nm. I figured I was going to track that until I could pick up the VOR at Nassau. Somewhere around Stella Maris the GPS decided to grace me with its usefulness again. I was only off my course by 4 nm. That KR-87 is a pretty darned good radio. As I recall I could pick up BBC-2 on 200KHz from mid-Atlantic too, thus providing me with backup. There still are a lot of LW/MW stations out there to help out when you are no longer inside the boundaries of the US airspace. > And I know of one PAA aircraft that was lost in the South Pacific > because they were using a CB as a station 30 miles from their intended > airport and hit a hill. No navigation system is perfect. They all have flaws. Still, they complement each other. Where one falls down, the others carry the load. GPS is PFM ... when it works. > I -myself never trust one and at best good > enough just to show OM passage. Sorry guys its just me. GPS (greatest > thing since sliced bread) has crapped out on me a few times, but ILS/VOR > never has. So I'd like and plan to have both in my airplane. I just paid good money to have my old reliable KR-87 ADF removed from the Comanche and put into the Aztec. (Ex-wife owns the Comanche now but I wanted that KR-87 and the Comanche had two ADFs.) I now have approach-certified GPS, two VHF navs, DME, RNAV, and ADF. I want them all. I have had GPS stop working several times now and it wasn't the radio as my backup hand-held GPS was gone too. (Yo, Air Force! You boys still playing with the availability? Isn't it time you quit?) Jim, I am not going to put ADF into the CJ but you can bet your aerial that, like you, I am going to have VOR/ILS in addition to GPS. I can't fathom what the FAA is smoking when they talk of making GPS the sole-source for navigation. Someday in the not too distant future there will be a terrorist scare and some bonehead is going to turn off the GPS constellation to prevent it from being used by the terrorists. It is going to happen on a nasty day and a whole bunch of pilots are going to have to suddenly remember how to navigate using VOR and ADF. Some poor sap is going to be caught out in the Caribbean with nothing but NDBs available for use. I sure hope he's keeping a navigation log and is up on his ded reckoning. > Jim (Sleepless, cold and cooped up in my condo in Delaware, Pappy) Goolsby > "God help me. I do love it so" Well, I am sleepless in NorCal. A winter storm has rolled in. I was lying in bed listening to the rain so I thought I would check weather again while I was awake since I will be launching in the morning. The radar says this storm has a fair bit of rain but no embedded CBs. I'm going south so I will be able to stay below the freezing level even when the MEA rises going over the mountains into the high desert. No CBs, no ice, and no high winds means flying weather. And I love it too: acro, formation, cross-country, IFR, or severe-clear. -- Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:47 AM PST US From: FamilyGage@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: A Very Merry Christmas Gentlemen.Gentlemen Am pleased to read that the very best pilot organization is resolving their apparent problems. Al has asked valid questions and Drew has replied. Every organizations has problems, i.e.; T-34, EAA, VAC, Warbirds etc. We have the highest quality of dedicated volunteers of any group, most of whom we often forget to say "thank you". I feel privileged to be a part of the RPA. So with a very Merry Christmas, 2006 will demonstrate the continued growth and development of RPA. BTW, I have a friend here at Spruce Creek that is looking for a sound Yak-52. He is a Southwest pilot and a good stick. Please contact me off list with any information about same. My Best to All, Ray Gage ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:22 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Sleepless in DE. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Yak-List: Sleepless in DE. . Sorry guys its just me. GPS (greatest thing since sliced bread) has crapped out on me a few times, but ILS/VOR never has. So I'd like and plan to have both in my airplane. Jim (Sleepless, cold and cooped up in my condo in Delaware, Pappy) Goolsby Pappy, I installed a Narco 122D ILS/VOR in my YAK. It fits in the Russian Clock panel hole. Did have to enlarge the hole slightly fit it in. Still have a few problems with the "quick clip" harness vibrating off, so I have not certified the a/c IFR yet. Love the 122 though. Yes, I also have a Garmin 396 gps with all the bells and whistles. The Nexrad radar is great. I actually like the setup of my previous 295 alittle better with its split screen function (HSI and moving map). To call up the HSI you have to change pages entirely and get the electronic panel with AS,ALT,VVI, and HSI. The 396 does not show the intersections, only the final approack fix. The 295 can be setup to show intersections also. Just alittle more SA in a handheld, that is all. An no that would not be my primary IFR instrument,nor will it ever be. Doc ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:58 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sleepless in DE. --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Roger Kemp wrote: > I installed a Narco 122D ILS/VOR in my YAK. It fits in the Russian > Clock panel hole. Did have to enlarge the hole slightly fit it in. > Still have a few problems with the "quick clip" harness vibrating > off, so I have not certified the a/c IFR yet. Love the 122 though. It is a good all-in-one VOR/ILS. I had both a Nav 121 and a 122 in one airplane I owned. I flew a lot of ILS's down to minimums with that radio. > Yes, I also have a Garmin 396 gps with all the bells and whistles. > The Nexrad radar is great. I actually like the setup of my previous > 295 alittle better with its split screen function (HSI and moving > map). > ... > An no that would not be my primary IFR instrument,nor will it ever be. > Doc Do you think you could fly IFR in a pinch with the GPS providing turn information? Ever tried it under the hood? -- Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:48 AM PST US From: Frank Haertlein Subject: Re: Yak-List: A Very Merry Christmas --> Yak-List message posted by: Frank Haertlein Ray I'll let mine go for 65. I'm in Wichita, KS right now. Frank Haertlein -----Original Message----- >From: FamilyGage@aol.com >Sent: Dec 18, 2005 5:22 AM >To: yak-list@matronics.com >Subject: Yak-List: A Very Merry Christmas > >Gentlemen.Gentlemen > >Am pleased to read that the very best pilot organization is resolving their >apparent problems. Al has asked valid questions and Drew has replied. Every >organizations has problems, i.e.; T-34, EAA, VAC, Warbirds etc. We have the >highest quality of dedicated volunteers of any group, most of whom we often >forget to say "thank you". > >I feel privileged to be a part of the RPA. So with a very Merry Christmas, >2006 will demonstrate the continued growth and development of RPA. > >BTW, I have a friend here at Spruce Creek that is looking for a sound >Yak-52. He is a Southwest pilot and a good stick. Please contact me off list with >any information about same. > >My Best to All, >Ray Gage ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:18 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sleepless in DE. --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" Brian wrote, >> > Do you think you could fly IFR in a pinch with the GPS providing turn > information? For situational awareness only. I still want AS, ALT, and would like to have a VVI along with turn/bank indicator. Ever tried it under the hood? Yes, I have. The HSI on timed turns with the DG and ADI covered up helped to roll out on headings without having to guestimate lead - lag from magnetic dip for heading changes. Use it for situational awareness only, not as a primary instrument. Doc ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:00 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: favor Dennis, I need a favor. Can you give me you phone number off list please? Pappy ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sleepless in DE. From: "Jon Boede" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" I lost the DG and attitude indicator in hard IMC once in my favorite A36 and flew quite comfortably off the TRK number on the GPS. But in that plane I'd gotten used to working TRK vs. DTK and using the DG only as a "transition" instrument -- so it really wasn't much of a change in scan excepting to ignore the two bad instruments. I used the turn indicator to cross-check myself occasionally. I was flying the GPS a lot because I was bored enough to be practicing flying +/- 1 degree of heading and the GPS was a better indicator than the DG for that. That incident showed the truism of the remark, "If you fly very precisely, you will know sooner when something is wrong." Jon > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" > Brian wrote, >>> >> Do you think you could fly IFR in a pinch with the GPS providing turn >> information? For situational awareness only. I still want AS, ALT, and > would like to have a VVI along with turn/bank indicator. > Ever tried it under the hood? > Yes, I have. The HSI on timed turns with the DG and ADI covered up helped > to roll out on headings without having to guestimate lead - lag from > magnetic dip for heading changes. > Use it for situational awareness only, not as a primary instrument. > Doc ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:51 PM PST US From: ByronMFox@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: New at the store Check it out. There's a new medium weight black sweat shirt at the RPA On-line Store. http://www.flyredstar.org/StoreCSVS/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=445 Merry Christmas & Thanks, Blitz Byron M. Fox RPA On-line Store 80 Milland Drive Mill Valley, CA 94941 Home 415-380-0907 Eves Cell 415-307-2405 Days ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:51 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sleepless in DE. --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Roger Kemp wrote: > would like to have a VVI along with turn/bank indicator. >> Ever tried it under the hood? > Yes, I have. The HSI on timed turns with the DG and ADI covered up helped > to roll out on headings without having to guestimate lead - lag from > magnetic dip for heading changes. > Use it for situational awareness only, not as a primary instrument. I was thinking in terms of "last-ditch, save-your-life." I was also wondering if it is possible to fly using the HSI indication on a handheld GPS instead of a gyro, i.e. airspeed, altitude, inclinometer (ball), and GPS heading or ADF needle to provide turn info. In an all-electric airplane like the CJ6A total loss of the electrical system is a possibility. If you could use that self-contained, hand-held GPS along with your pitot-static instruments, that would be a good thing. Time for an experiment. -- Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) From: Cliff Umscheid --> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid Would the genius who wrote "A second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell you how fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass" please identify himself. This young fellow needs some immediate straightening out before he does irretrievable further harm to his image as an accomplished airman member of this group . And that is to say nothing about the risk to the brain contained within his "huge ass" . Not only does he display his ignorance but he flaunts his arrogance by such an ostentacious display of sarcasm and superiority. It is better to remain silent and let your ignorance be suspected than to open your mouth and be identified a fool. And, just for the record --"Dude"-- you cannot establish rate of turn using a whiskey compass heading change and a sweep second hand watch, no matter how "big ass" either your watch or your head. Seek immediate remedial help to fill the gaps in your basic knowledge, your continued survival depends upon it . ( Francis, was that YOU who wrote such drivel?) Cliff Umscheid ass"his uOn Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:59:20 -0800 Brian Lloyd writes: > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > Roger Kemp wrote: > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" > > > > > Dude, > > You can fly/recover an aircraft with nothing more than AS, > Altimeter, and > > whiskey compass. The ball is not electric and not it does not give > you rate > > of turn. But a second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell > you how > > fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass. > > Uh, not in IFR conditions you can't. Actually I am going to say this > a > bit more strongly. > > YOU ARE WRONG!!!! > > You need at least one gyro and it can be as simple as a rate gyro > (needle-ball or turn coordinator). Your whiskey compass will stop, > speed > up, and even reverse as a function of magnetic dip. Without at least > one > gyro you can't keep the airplane upright. Sorry. > > Ah, I bet you are thinking of your magnetically-slaved heading > indicator. That too is a gyro and will provide stabilized turn > information. You *can* keep an airplane upright and flying with just > > ASI, Alt, and DG. > > Tell you what. Let's go get in a sim and cover all the gyros but > leave > you the ASI, alt, VSI, whiskey compass, and the ball. (Hell, I will > let > you have all the engine instruments you want.) You fly. Let's see > how > long the airplane keeps flying. Better still, we can do it in the > real > thing so you get all those false vestibular signals. That should > make > the end come a lot sooner. > > > As was always taught in pilot training and at instrument refresher > courses > > throughout my AF career/ civilian included, believe the > instruments. Ignore > > your sensations from you inner ear and the "seat of your pants". > >>From the there I was file: Departing Luke AFB as the weather bird > (single > > ship-Doc needed a sortie) to check the south Tac ranges for > student > > training. Weather was 800 and 1, above mins. 5 min after TO, lost > DC buses > > A and B in then an F-15. All we had was the standby peanut (bat > powered), > > AS and Altimeter for primary instruments. Did have radio from bat > power. > > Did a PAR back into Luke. > > But you had that peanut AI and that is what really saved your ass. > If > you had no gyros and you were IFR you would now be either dead or a > > member of the caterpillar club. > > PAR? Real men still call it GCA. ;-) > > I used to love GCA. As a kid I used to go fly practice GCA whenever > I > could. March used to let me do it and I would always fly one to > Calgary > after flying the AN Adcock range up at Cranbrook going over the > Rockies. > This was many moons ago. > > But I digress. > > -- > Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. > brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . > . . > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:17 PM PST US From: E R Subject: Re: Yak-List: favor Hi Pappy, Elizabeth here. I guess you may have sent this to me instead of Dennis by mistake? I don't know Dennis' email address. Have a lovely Christmas! Elizabeth cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: Dennis, I need a favor. Can you give me you phone number off list please? Pappy ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:44 PM PST US From: "Sarah Tobin" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) --> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" Actually on GCAs and PARs all you need is a radio. That is the point of those approaches. They will tell you "Start Turn" "Stop Turn" "Begin Descent" "Increase Descent" "Slow Descent","Slow Airspeed" "Begin Flare" etc. For the ASRs they will give you an altitude and climb out instructions, etc assuming you have altimeter. When I was stationed at Tinker and still instructing, I would always take my studs down to Ft Sill, down there they do a great job of giving PARs/ASRs and it gives them practice. It is not only for military a/c in trouble. Anyone can utilize their services in an emergency situation. I have let these guys practice while I am safety pilot/IP and take my studs down to the flare. They call the flare pretty accurately considering they don't deal with much GA a/c. We were a little hot, but they are normally really good about speeds and altitude. Smash >From: Brian Lloyd >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com >To: yak-list@matronics.com >Subject: Yak-List: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) >Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:26:46 -0800 > >--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > >Sarah Tobin wrote: >>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" >> >>I don't know of any C172 or any other basic IFR training a/c that has a >>back up attitude indicator. It is most certainly possible and oh by the >>way...expected. When you can perform partial panel NDB holding at the >>foothills of the Rockies, with a 30 kt xwind at night and have complete >>SA, then you can call yourself an instrument pilot. Oh yeah, that is what >>my primary instrument IP made me do. Thanks Ricky B. > >You know what, I bet you could use an ADF as a stabilized heading >indicator. (And, no, I am not talking about using the RMI compass card but >the needle itself.) It has no dip and you might be able to keep an airplane >upright with a ball and an ADF to tell you if you are in a turn or not. >That would be something to try in a sim. > >But, yeah, partial panel to me means needle-ball and airspeed. We can throw >in an altimeter and whiskey compass too just for grins. > >Ever done a no-gyro GCA? They still expect you to have a needle-ball or a >turn coordinator. > >-- >Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. >brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 >+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > >I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . >- Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:07 PM PST US From: E R Subject: Re: Yak-List: favor...oops! Pappy and all, Sorry about my response to Jim. I didn't notice the "yak list" part! I guess I should start paying attention (shows you what happens when you don't drink!) Elizabeth cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: Dennis, I need a favor. Can you give me you phone number off list please? Pappy