Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:10 AM - Sorta IFR (Craig Payne)
2. 04:41 AM - EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency (Jeff Linebaugh)
3. 06:14 AM - Real Emergencies (Craig Payne)
4. 07:19 AM - Re: Sorta IFR (Jon Boede)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Jon Boede)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: New at the store (Jon Boede)
7. 08:20 AM - Re: Sorta IFR (Brian Lloyd)
8. 08:22 AM - B&C alternator (HodgeJW@aol.com)
9. 08:27 AM - Re: Sorta IFR (Brian Lloyd)
10. 08:30 AM - Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Brian Lloyd)
11. 08:38 AM - Re: Real Emergencies (Brian Lloyd)
12. 08:41 AM - Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Brian Lloyd)
13. 08:55 AM - Re: B&C alternator (Michael Bolton)
14. 09:16 AM - Re: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency (ByronMFox@aol.com)
15. 09:21 AM - Re: New at the store (ByronMFox@aol.com)
16. 09:33 AM - Re: partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Francis Butler)
17. 11:16 AM - Fw: Handy Instructions to stop alien abductions (Roger Kemp)
18. 12:38 PM - Mock Turtleneck Shirt (ByronMFox@aol.com)
19. 12:50 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (Roger Kemp)
20. 01:00 PM - Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) (Sarah Tobin)
21. 01:05 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (Ernest Martinez)
22. 01:15 PM - Re: Real Emergencies (Sarah Tobin)
23. 01:44 PM - Family Numbers (Craig Payne)
24. 02:05 PM - Re: Oil tank (Richard Basiliere)
25. 02:37 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (Roger Kemp)
26. 02:50 PM - Re: Family Numbers (Doug Sapp)
27. 02:52 PM - Re: Mock Turtleneck Shirt (Doug Sapp)
28. 02:57 PM - Situational Awareness or lack thereof... (Richard Basiliere)
29. 03:18 PM - Re: Family Numbers (Craig Payne)
30. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: Real Emergencies (Craig Payne)
31. 05:22 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (cjpilot710@aol.com)
32. 06:35 PM - Re: Partial panel without gyros (Brian Lloyd)
33. 06:48 PM - Winterization kit for CJ6 (Doug Sapp)
34. 06:50 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (Brian Lloyd)
35. 07:32 PM - Re: PAR's (Barry Hancock)
36. 07:40 PM - Merry Christmas from our feathered friends (Barry Hancock)
37. 07:56 PM - Re: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency (Walter Lannon)
38. 08:58 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (Ernest Martinez)
39. 09:37 PM - Re: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency (Brian Lloyd)
40. 09:53 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (Brian Lloyd)
41. 10:36 PM - Re: Sorta IFR (Paul Sidey)
Message 1
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>
>
> I was also wondering if it is possible to fly using the HSI indication
> on a handheld GPS instead of a gyro, i.e. airspeed, altitude,
> inclinometer (ball), and GPS heading or ADF needle to provide turn info.
>
>
I tried that in an RV-9 with the 296, seemed to track turn rate and attitude OK
for x-country but I didn't mess with any approaches. OTOH, with a backseat CFII,
I did a 1.8hr x-country with the CJ under the hood, using a handheld, simulating
GPS overlay approaches. It was then I realized that I would never invest
in IFR equipment for the CJ without an autopilot first. Start flipping charts
and oops.
Craig Payne
Message 2
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| Subject: | EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency |
To the Yak-Listers:
OK, we've left you hanging long enough on the electrical problem from a few
days ago...
Actually, I was a little surprised at the limited amount of discussion that
this situation generated (besides Brian, but he had the inside scoop, and
was acting as the "straight-man"). Is it that in a day-VFR situation, it is
very cut and dried? i.e. turn off the Battery and Generator/Alternator and
land as soon as possible...). One consideration that wasn't covered is how
toxic an electrical fire or battery explosion can be.
Day/VFR formation? Still, turn off the Bat and Gen immediately and head for
the nearest place to land, regardless of whether you have a wingman or not.
This is a serious problem, and requires you to not delay: devote all your
attention to get the airplane on the ground ASAP.
IFR? Now you really have a life-or-death problem, as Brian pointed out. Most
of our Yaks/CJs are all electric gyro airplanes. Get clear of the clouds
ASAP.
OK, I promised more on this problem. Bob "Kilo" Watts brought this situation
up, concerned for the well being of his Red Star comrades. It seems that
this particular emergency has occurred, with various outcomes, at least
three times in the recent past. In one case, it only resulted in some fried
wires. The other two cases were more dramatic, one with a battery EXPLOSION
the other with some major electrical system damage. The outcomes in all
cases could have been a lot worse. We don't mean to be alarmists here, but
this topic, we believe, requires some careful consideration.
Over the past week, we have collected information from several of the pilars
of our group. Some 100 e-mails later, there are still some questions, but we
can offer up what we learned. Here is a summary:
The 3 occurrences were all in CJs with the later model solid-state voltage
regulators. It seems these regulators have a "full on" failure mode which
can cause the generator to run at very high voltage and current.
This over voltage condition will likely cause damage to radio equipment, can
cause electical fires, and overheat batteries.
According to Brian, this failure mode of the voltage regulator is not unique
to our aircraft. In fact, most "spams" share this problem. However, most are
protected with an over voltage relay to protect the electrical system.
The older style carbon-pyle type CJ voltage regulators are less prone to
this failure mode.
According to Jill Gernetske, stock Yak 52s are protected with over voltage
protection, reverse current protection, and a 50 amp fuse at the battery.
As best we can tell, stock CJs are only protected with the 50 amp battery
fuse.
50 amps, for a period of time, is still more than enough current to overheat
a battery, even in the Yak 52 set up.
According to Doug Sapp, the Chinese have not run in to this problem.
For people who have converted to the B & C alternator and voltage regulator,
it contains an overvoltage relay to protect against this type of failure.
So what do we do with this information?
Be forewarned. If you see symptoms of electrical problems, get them resolved
ASAP
If you have the newer style CJ voltage regulator, consider adding some
protection. Brian Lloyd has been working on an economical improvement to
help prevent electrical runaways. He has talked with Bob Nuckolls
(AeroElectric Connection and
the designer of the B&C alternator controller) and Bob is going to roll a
custom OV protection module for the CJ6A. Brian will work with him on how
best to install it.
If you have the older style CJ voltage regulator, Joe Howse has come up with
a "bolt-on" replacement kit for these hard to find regulators.
We need to continue to look for more information as to why these problems
have occurred. Is it because non-stock batteries were used? Is it because of
modifications, or damage due to charging or "jump-starting" or ...?
In the near future, look for a more comprehensive safety bulletin from the
RPA addressing this situation.
We don't want to see one of our fellow Yakers run in to this problem. Please
if you have anything further to add on this subject, we welcome all inputs!
Stay tuned for more on this subject...
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
Message 3
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| Subject: | Real Emergencies |
Here's an emergency (there are more) from my CJ logbook: with only ferry time on
my then stock CJ and 20 hours in type, I launched from runway 18 at ARR (Aurora,
IL). 3000 ft, rain slicked. No problem; unless upon rotation, your AS goes
Tango Uniform.
Abort? Continue TO and circle back to land? I might also add that the grass overrun
was rain soaked from several days of downpours. The field is tower controlled,
conditions are VFR. What would you do? I probably did the wrong thing.
The root cause of the failure turned out to be a snapped pitot hose to the rear
AS. I ended up replacing all the pitot and static lines as they were dry rotted
and brittle. Something I have seen on other CJ's that have been parked for
some time before export.
Craig Payne
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
I'm here to vouch for the CJ as an absolutely wonderful IFR platform...
although I've only done GPS and ILS approaches in it. But to Craig's
point, it does help a whole bunch to fold the books open to the approaches
you're thinking about in advance -- give the binder a good bend. Very
easy to fly the airplane +/- 10 feet and +/- 1 degree ... it's not me, the
CJ just makes you look good.
Somebody also said something about the Chinese attitude indicator being
"backwards". I've found that just like using left rudder instead of
right, working with the "backwards" attitude indicator is something my
medula straightens out for me automagically. I've never had issues
hopping back and forth between the CJ and "normal" airplanes.
Jon
PS. I say this from 60+ hours of IMC per year in the CJ, mostly
compressed into 4 winter months. Your Marvel May Vary.
>> I was also wondering if it is possible to fly using the HSI indication
>> on a handheld GPS instead of a gyro, i.e. airspeed, altitude,
>> inclinometer (ball), and GPS heading or ADF needle to provide turn info.
>>
>>
> I tried that in an RV-9 with the 296, seemed to track turn rate and
> attitude OK for x-country but I didn't mess with any approaches. OTOH,
> with a backseat CFII, I did a 1.8hr x-country with the CJ under the hood,
> using a handheld, simulating GPS overlay approaches. It was then I
> realized that I would never invest in IFR equipment for the CJ without an
> autopilot first. Start flipping charts and oops.
>
> Craig Payne
Message 5
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<BAY112-F18C6442C047E9B520D2BA0AA3F0@phx.gbl>
| Subject: | Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
In Central Texas, Gray Approach will give PAR approaches into Gray Army
Airfield (also the new regional airport)... my friend is a controller
there and says they wish more people would use the service -- it's fun for
them, too. :-)
Jon
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
>
> Actually on GCAs and PARs all you need is a radio. That is the point of
> those approaches. They will tell you "Start Turn" "Stop Turn" "Begin
> Descent" "Increase Descent" "Slow Descent","Slow Airspeed" "Begin
> Flare"
> etc. For the ASRs they will give you an altitude and climb out
> instructions, etc assuming you have altimeter.
>
> When I was stationed at Tinker and still instructing, I would always take
> my
> studs down to Ft Sill, down there they do a great job of giving PARs/ASRs
> and it gives them practice. It is not only for military a/c in trouble.
> Anyone can utilize their services in an emergency situation. I have let
> these guys practice while I am safety pilot/IP and take my studs down to
> the
> flare. They call the flare pretty accurately considering they don't deal
> with much GA a/c. We were a little hot, but they are normally really good
> about speeds and altitude.
>
> Smash
>
>
>>From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Yak-List: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries)
>>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:26:46 -0800
>>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>>
>>Sarah Tobin wrote:
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>I don't know of any C172 or any other basic IFR training a/c that has a
>>>back up attitude indicator. It is most certainly possible and oh by the
>>>way...expected. When you can perform partial panel NDB holding at the
>>>foothills of the Rockies, with a 30 kt xwind at night and have complete
>>>SA, then you can call yourself an instrument pilot. Oh yeah, that is
>>> what
>>>my primary instrument IP made me do. Thanks Ricky B.
>>
>>You know what, I bet you could use an ADF as a stabilized heading
>>indicator. (And, no, I am not talking about using the RMI compass card
>> but
>>the needle itself.) It has no dip and you might be able to keep an
>> airplane
>>upright with a ball and an ADF to tell you if you are in a turn or not.
>>That would be something to try in a sim.
>>
>>But, yeah, partial panel to me means needle-ball and airspeed. We can
>> throw
>>in an altimeter and whiskey compass too just for grins.
>>
>>Ever done a no-gyro GCA? They still expect you to have a needle-ball or a
>>turn coordinator.
>>
>>--
>>Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>>brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>
>>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>>- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New at the store |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
Marvelous, but you need to put in a close-up of the logo in the catalog.
Jon
> Check it out. There's a new medium weight black sweat shirt at the RPA
> On-line Store.
> http://www.flyredstar.org/StoreCSVS/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=445
>
>
> Merry Christmas & Thanks, Blitz
>
> Byron M. Fox
> RPA On-line Store
> 80 Milland Drive
> Mill Valley, CA 94941
> Home 415-380-0907 Eves
> Cell 415-307-2405 Days
>
Message 7
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> I tried that in an RV-9 with the 296, seemed to track turn rate and
> attitude OK for x-country but I didn't mess with any approaches. OTOH,
> with a backseat CFII, I did a 1.8hr x-country with the CJ under the
> hood, using a handheld, simulating GPS overlay approaches.
Did you use the GPS to provide stabilized turn info to replace your turn
gyro, i.e., if you had a total electrical failure in the CJ, could you
stay alive with just the pitot static instruments, the ball, and the
handheld GPS?
I have to quit asking and go out and do it for myself.
> It was then I
> realized that I would never invest in IFR equipment for the CJ without
> an autopilot first. Start flipping charts and oops.
The CJ is not a bad platform even without an autopilot. The only problem
is the light control forces make it easy to accidentally nudge the
aircraft off the straight and narrow. The trick is to trim it out
correctly and then let go of the stick completely when you are fiddling
with a chart. It also helps to keep one eye on the AI and the other on
the chart. It is known as the "Marty Feldman" maneuver.
And there isn't a whole hell of a lot of room for charts either.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 8
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Who can tell me how big a job it is to replace the Russian generator with
the B&C alternator? It looks like bolting the alternator on is no big deal, but
it's the wiring changes that I'm concerned about. Is this a tough job? Worth
the weight savings? I'm also thinking about changing out the rubber bushings
in the motor mount while I'm in there. Anybody have experience with this
one? Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Jay
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Jon Boede wrote:
> I'm here to vouch for the CJ as an absolutely wonderful IFR platform...
I like it too.
> although I've only done GPS and ILS approaches in it. But to Craig's
> point, it does help a whole bunch to fold the books open to the approaches
> you're thinking about in advance -- give the binder a good bend. Very
> easy to fly the airplane +/- 10 feet and +/- 1 degree ... it's not me, the
> CJ just makes you look good.
>
> Somebody also said something about the Chinese attitude indicator being
> "backwards". I've found that just like using left rudder instead of
> right, working with the "backwards" attitude indicator is something my
> medula straightens out for me automagically. I've never had issues
> hopping back and forth between the CJ and "normal" airplanes.j
Well, It is only backward in pitch, not roll. I find that when I stick
my head in the cockpit to transition to the gauges I spend some time
doing little pitch joggles for about 5 minutes while my brain
recoordinates for the inverted pitch display. I reduce the problem by
concentrating on trim and power to maintain airspeed and altitude rather
than putting in big pitch inputs. Talking myself through the control
inputs helps too. After about 5-10 minutes there is no difference.
And I have flown some cross-country flights in the clag with the Chinese
gyros. It isn't all that bad.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Jon Boede wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>
> In Central Texas, Gray Approach will give PAR approaches into Gray Army
> Airfield (also the new regional airport)... my friend is a controller
> there and says they wish more people would use the service -- it's fun for
> them, too. :-)
They qualify as a precision approach for the purposes of currency. Do a
couple with all your gyros and then have them give you a "no gyro"
approach. In that they assume your heading indicator (DG) has failed. It
is pretty cool and a heck of a confidence builder.
I know that if I lose my gyros while IFR and need to get on the ground I
will declare and emergency and ask for a PAR at the nearest military field.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Real Emergencies |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> rotation, your AS goes Tango Uniform.
>
> Abort? Continue TO and circle back to land? I might also add that the
> grass overrun was rain soaked from several days of downpours. The field
> is tower controlled, conditions are VFR. What would you do? I probably
> did the wrong thing.
Frankly, if there were no room to stop safely I would go around the
pattern. One thing about the CJ6A is that it does not have any bad
habits around stall. It will warn you well in advance of you getting
into trouble so unless you are totally senseless, stall/spin is pretty
hard to get into in the CJ.
BTW, part of transition training is to have students learn the power
settings that produce a particular performance point then have them fly
the pattern without an ASI so that they see it really is a non-event.
One should do that with every airplane they fly.
> The root cause of the failure turned out to be a snapped pitot hose to
> the rear AS. I ended up replacing all the pitot and static lines as they
> were dry rotted and brittle. Something I have seen on other CJ's that
> have been parked for some time before export.
That is one of the things that just needs to be completely replaced when
one is getting a CJ ready to fly in the US.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sarah Tobin wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
>
> Actually on GCAs and PARs all you need is a radio. That is the point of
> those approaches. They will tell you "Start Turn" "Stop Turn" "Begin
> Descent" "Increase Descent" "Slow Descent","Slow Airspeed" "Begin
> Flare" etc. For the ASRs they will give you an altitude and climb out
> instructions, etc assuming you have altimeter.
That is why I keep asking the question WRT the hand-held GPS receivers
with HSI indications. If that is a sufficiently stable source of turn
information then someone could make a PAR approach using a
battery-operated hand-held radio and a battery-operated GPS after a
total electrical failure in a CJ or Yak.
The life you save may be your own.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator |
Jay, give my hero Doug Sapp a call. 509.826.4610 He is the most knowledgable
person I have run into. And he will most likely have the parts you need.
Michael "Mighty" Bolton
"If it doesn't sound round, Why Look?"
----- Original Message -----
From: HodgeJW@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 11:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: B&C alternator
Who can tell me how big a job it is to replace the Russian generator with the
B&C alternator? It looks like bolting the alternator on is no big deal, but it's
the wiring changes that I'm concerned about. Is this a tough job? Worth the
weight savings? I'm also thinking about changing out the rubber bushings in
the motor mount while I'm in there. Anybody have experience with this one? Let
me know what you think.
Thanks,
Jay
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency |
Jeff, I greatly appreciate your hard work and the contributions of Brian and
others. Most instructive! Many thanks, Blitz
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: New at the store |
In a message dated 12/19/2005 7:27:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, jon@email.net
writes:
Marvelous, but you need to put in a close-up of the logo in the catalog.
I'll do that, Jon.
Merry Christmas & Thanks, Blitz
Byron M. Fox
RPA On-line Store
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
Home 415-380-0907 Eves
Cell 415-307-2405 Days
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Francis Butler" <francis_butler@msn.com>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Cliff
The "Dude" your after is Viperdoc. Take em to school. My post stated that
you would be a smoking hole if you were reduced down to airspeed, altimeter
and whiskey compass in IMC. Are you looking through your bifocals when you
read these post's? Just kidding.
F. Butler
No drivel
Yak 50
>From: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>CC: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries)
>Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:09:24 -0500
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Cliff Umscheid <netmaster15@juno.com>
>
>Would the genius who wrote "A second sweep hand on your huge ass watch
>will tell you how fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass"
> please identify himself. This young fellow needs some immediate
>straightening out before he does irretrievable further harm to his
>image as an accomplished airman member of this group . And that is to
>say nothing about the risk to the brain contained within his "huge ass" .
>Not only does he display his ignorance but he flaunts his arrogance by
>such an ostentacious display of sarcasm and superiority. It is better to
>remain silent and let your ignorance be suspected than to open your mouth
>and be identified a fool. And, just for the record --"Dude"-- you cannot
>establish rate of turn using a whiskey compass heading change and a sweep
>second hand watch, no matter how "big ass" either your watch or your
>head. Seek immediate remedial help to fill the gaps in your basic
>knowledge, your continued survival depends upon it . ( Francis, was that
>YOU who wrote such drivel?)
>
>Cliff Umscheid
>
>
>ass"his uOn
>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:59:20 -0800 Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> writes:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> >
> > Roger Kemp wrote:
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp"
> > <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> > >
> > > Dude,
> > > You can fly/recover an aircraft with nothing more than AS,
> > Altimeter, and
> > > whiskey compass. The ball is not electric and not it does not give
> > you rate
> > > of turn. But a second sweep hand on your huge ass watch will tell
> > you how
> > > fast you are turning as you watch the whiskey compass.
> >
> > Uh, not in IFR conditions you can't. Actually I am going to say this
> > a
> > bit more strongly.
> >
> > YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
> >
> > You need at least one gyro and it can be as simple as a rate gyro
> > (needle-ball or turn coordinator). Your whiskey compass will stop,
> > speed
> > up, and even reverse as a function of magnetic dip. Without at least
> > one
> > gyro you can't keep the airplane upright. Sorry.
> >
> > Ah, I bet you are thinking of your magnetically-slaved heading
> > indicator. That too is a gyro and will provide stabilized turn
> > information. You *can* keep an airplane upright and flying with just
> >
> > ASI, Alt, and DG.
> >
> > Tell you what. Let's go get in a sim and cover all the gyros but
> > leave
> > you the ASI, alt, VSI, whiskey compass, and the ball. (Hell, I will
> > let
> > you have all the engine instruments you want.) You fly. Let's see
> > how
> > long the airplane keeps flying. Better still, we can do it in the
> > real
> > thing so you get all those false vestibular signals. That should
> > make
> > the end come a lot sooner.
> >
> > > As was always taught in pilot training and at instrument refresher
> > courses
> > > throughout my AF career/ civilian included, believe the
> > instruments. Ignore
> > > your sensations from you inner ear and the "seat of your pants".
> > >>From the there I was file: Departing Luke AFB as the weather bird
> > (single
> > > ship-Doc needed a sortie) to check the south Tac ranges for
> > student
> > > training. Weather was 800 and 1, above mins. 5 min after TO, lost
> > DC buses
> > > A and B in then an F-15. All we had was the standby peanut (bat
> > powered),
> > > AS and Altimeter for primary instruments. Did have radio from bat
> > power.
> > > Did a PAR back into Luke.
> >
> > But you had that peanut AI and that is what really saved your ass.
> > If
> > you had no gyros and you were IFR you would now be either dead or a
> >
> > member of the caterpillar club.
> >
> > PAR? Real men still call it GCA. ;-)
> >
> > I used to love GCA. As a kid I used to go fly practice GCA whenever
> > I
> > could. March used to let me do it and I would always fly one to
> > Calgary
> > after flying the AN Adcock range up at Cranbrook going over the
> > Rockies.
> > This was many moons ago.
> >
> > But I digress.
> >
> > --
> > Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> > brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
> >
> > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things .
> > . .
> > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Fw: Handy Instructions to stop alien abductions |
>To:
>Subject: Handy Instructions
>
>>http://www.stopabductions.com/
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Mock Turtleneck Shirt |
Did you really intend to order another one of these today? Happy to comply,
but I want to make sure.
Thanks & Merry Christmas, Blitz
Byron M Fox
The RPA Store
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
415-307-2405 Cell Days
415-380-0907 Home Eves
http://www.flyredstar.org/StoreCSVS/default.aspx
Message 19
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Brian,
I have done partial panel turns to headings using the HSI function on a handheld
GPS (Garmin 295). Everything else except AS, Alt, and turn/bank were covered
on my last instrument check. Use it for SA only.
And Yep I'm the dumbass that was lucky enough to survive a total eletrical failure
with nothing more than a AS, ALt, and whiskey compass. Did within about 5
? min get the battery to reset so got the ADI back and the radios back. My IP
and I then did a PAR back into Luke.
Can you control an a/c with only AS, Alt and compass? I did once. No I do not ever
want to try it again.
That is why I have a handheld radio and gps as back up in flight bag next to my
right knee.
Can you use the gps for AS when the ASI fails. Yes you can...done that also. Went
chasing a faulty AS indicator in my Archer. We went thru 3 ASI's, a new pitot
static boom, and changed all the metal and flexible tubing thru the wing, side
panel and behind the instrument panel trying to find the reason for the failure
at 100kts and above.
Turns out the Pipers with electric trim have a trim override sensor inline with
the impact side of pitot/static system. If the electric trim runs awaypitching
the A/C up to near stall, this sensory detects the equalization of pressure
between the impact and static side and turns off the electric trim. As best as
I understand it. Anyway the diaphram in the sensor had a small hole in it. Bypassed
the trim sensor and solved the ASI failures. But to test the AS, ended
using the AS from the GPS to back up the questionalble AS indicator.
Can you do timed turns without a gyro? I admit, I am wrong! I was thinking I still
had the turn indicator to do that with when the last EP was written.
So Gus, Francis, and all...I'll eat my crow now!
Viperdoc
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>Sent: Dec 19, 2005 10:19 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sorta IFR
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>Craig Payne wrote:
>
>> I tried that in an RV-9 with the 296, seemed to track turn rate and
>> attitude OK for x-country but I didn't mess with any approaches. OTOH,
>> with a backseat CFII, I did a 1.8hr x-country with the CJ under the
>> hood, using a handheld, simulating GPS overlay approaches.
>
>Did you use the GPS to provide stabilized turn info to replace your turn
>gyro, i.e., if you had a total electrical failure in the CJ, could you
>stay alive with just the pitot static instruments, the ball, and the
>handheld GPS?
>
>I have to quit asking and go out and do it for myself.
>
>> It was then I
>> realized that I would never invest in IFR equipment for the CJ without
>> an autopilot first. Start flipping charts and oops.
>
>The CJ is not a bad platform even without an autopilot. The only problem
>is the light control forces make it easy to accidentally nudge the
>aircraft off the straight and narrow. The trick is to trim it out
>correctly and then let go of the stick completely when you are fiddling
>with a chart. It also helps to keep one eye on the AI and the other on
>the chart. It is known as the "Marty Feldman" maneuver.
>
>And there isn't a whole hell of a lot of room for charts either.
>
>--
>Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
The "no-gyro" approaches are referring to ASRs and they, of course are
non-precision, while you are right, the PARs qualify as precision
approaches. (See Below)
GROUND CONTROLLED APPROACH- A radar approach system operated from the ground
by air traffic control personnel transmitting instructions to the pilot by
radio. The approach may be conducted with surveillance radar (ASR) only or
with both surveillance and precision approach radar (PAR). Usage of the term
"GCA" by pilots is discouraged except when referring to a GCA facility.
Pilots should specifically request a "PAR" approach when a precision radar
approach is desired or request an "ASR" or "surveillance" approach when a
nonprecision radar approach is desired.
>From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Partial panel without gyros (was: Batteries)
>Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:30:42 -0800
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
>Jon Boede wrote:
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>>
>>In Central Texas, Gray Approach will give PAR approaches into Gray Army
>>Airfield (also the new regional airport)... my friend is a controller
>>there and says they wish more people would use the service -- it's fun for
>>them, too. :-)
>
>They qualify as a precision approach for the purposes of currency. Do a
>couple with all your gyros and then have them give you a "no gyro"
>approach. In that they assume your heading indicator (DG) has failed. It is
>pretty cool and a heck of a confidence builder.
>
>I know that if I lose my gyros while IFR and need to get on the ground I
>will declare and emergency and ask for a PAR at the nearest military field.
>
>--
>Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
Message 21
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Excuse my ignorance, I am instrument rated, but never use it. What is PAR????
Ernie
On 12/19/05, Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Brian,
> I have done partial panel turns to headings using the HSI function on a handheld
GPS (Garmin 295). Everything else except AS, Alt, and turn/bank were covered
on my last instrument check. Use it for SA only.
> And Yep I'm the dumbass that was lucky enough to survive a total eletrical failure
with nothing more than a AS, ALt, and whiskey compass. Did within about
5 ? min get the battery to reset so got the ADI back and the radios back. My IP
and I then did a PAR back into Luke.
> Can you control an a/c with only AS, Alt and compass? I did once. No I do not
ever want to try it again.
> That is why I have a handheld radio and gps as back up in flight bag next to
my right knee.
> Can you use the gps for AS when the ASI fails. Yes you can...done that also.
Went chasing a faulty AS indicator in my Archer. We went thru 3 ASI's, a new pitot
static boom, and changed all the metal and flexible tubing thru the wing,
side panel and behind the instrument panel trying to find the reason for the
failure at 100kts and above.
> Turns out the Pipers with electric trim have a trim override sensor inline with
the impact side of pitot/static system. If the electric trim runs awaypitching
the A/C up to near stall, this sensory detects the equalization of pressure
between the impact and static side and turns off the electric trim. As best
as I understand it. Anyway the diaphram in the sensor had a small hole in it.
Bypassed the trim sensor and solved the ASI failures. But to test the AS, ended
using the AS from the GPS to back up the questionalble AS indicator.
> Can you do timed turns without a gyro? I admit, I am wrong! I was thinking I
still had the turn indicator to do that with when the last EP was written.
> So Gus, Francis, and all...I'll eat my crow now!
>
> Viperdoc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> >Sent: Dec 19, 2005 10:19 AM
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sorta IFR
> >
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> >
> >Craig Payne wrote:
> >
> >> I tried that in an RV-9 with the 296, seemed to track turn rate and
> >> attitude OK for x-country but I didn't mess with any approaches. OTOH,
> >> with a backseat CFII, I did a 1.8hr x-country with the CJ under the
> >> hood, using a handheld, simulating GPS overlay approaches.
> >
> >Did you use the GPS to provide stabilized turn info to replace your turn
> >gyro, i.e., if you had a total electrical failure in the CJ, could you
> >stay alive with just the pitot static instruments, the ball, and the
> >handheld GPS?
> >
> >I have to quit asking and go out and do it for myself.
> >
> >> It was then I
> >> realized that I would never invest in IFR equipment for the CJ without
> >> an autopilot first. Start flipping charts and oops.
> >
> >The CJ is not a bad platform even without an autopilot. The only problem
> >is the light control forces make it easy to accidentally nudge the
> >aircraft off the straight and narrow. The trick is to trim it out
> >correctly and then let go of the stick completely when you are fiddling
> >with a chart. It also helps to keep one eye on the AI and the other on
> >the chart. It is known as the "Marty Feldman" maneuver.
> >
> >And there isn't a whole hell of a lot of room for charts either.
> >
> >--
> >Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> >brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> >+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
> >
> >I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> >- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Real Emergencies |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
If you had noticed the problem before rotation and there was sufficient
runway remaining to stop, then I would have aborted. But with hydroplaning
being 9 Xs the sq root of the tire pressure, you were probably well beyond
that, and you would've skidded a much longer distance than normal distance.
But it is just an airspeed indicator. You know the power setting for appr.
I would have taken her around, and flown a normal pattern, using power
setting and eng sound, xchecking with altitude for references. This is not
an emergency.
as soon as I power up, on take off roll, I check for "AS alive", "Eng instr
in the Green"
Smash
>From: "Craig Payne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
>To: "yak-list" <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Yak-List: Real Emergencies
>Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:13:34 -0500
>
>Here's an emergency (there are more) from my CJ logbook: with only ferry
>time on my then stock CJ and 20 hours in type, I launched from runway 18 at
>ARR (Aurora, IL). 3000 ft, rain slicked. No problem; unless upon rotation,
>your AS goes Tango Uniform.
>
>Abort? Continue TO and circle back to land? I might also add that the grass
>overrun was rain soaked from several days of downpours. The field is tower
>controlled, conditions are VFR. What would you do? I probably did the
>wrong thing.
>
>The root cause of the failure turned out to be a snapped pitot hose to the
>rear AS. I ended up replacing all the pitot and static lines as they were
>dry rotted and brittle. Something I have seen on other CJ's that have been
>parked for some time before export.
>
>Craig Payne
Message 23
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|
Family, that is the family of Nanchangs and Yakovlevs with variants of the 9-cyl
engine we are familiar with...in the USA, as of last Friday night: I didn't
count Sukhois, I-3's/ whatevers. I'm also not sure what manufacturer 52TW's are
registered under. What I found interesting was that the number of CJ's has now
caught up and exceeds the number of Yak-52 registrations...at least the ones
I found.
Nanchang CJ-5 2
Nanchang CJ6/CJ-6/CJ-6A/CJ-6G/(nanchang)Yak-18A/Chujiao 251
---------------------------------------------------
Total CJ's = 253
Yakovlev 18A 5
Yakovlev 18T 11
Yakovlev 50 33
Yakovlev 52S 1
Yakovlev 52 175
Aerostar 52 10
Yakovlev 53 1
Yakovlev 54 2
Yaklovlev 55 5
Yakovlev 55M 68
Total Yaks = 311
Craig Payne
Message 24
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Use the 2.5 gallon jugs of Phillips 25w-60....I have NEVER gotten one of
this caps to fit in the oil tank...
Rick B
>>> mwlevy@btinternet.com 12/17/2005 4:41:47 AM >>>
I can't believe that no-one has come up with the lowest tech solution
to the oil cap in the tank problem. When my dear wife dropped a cap into
my '52s tank ten years ago, we tried fishing for it with some wire
without success.
Then the savvy airfield engineer rolled up, assessed the problem in an
instant and simply rounded up half a dozen 7 year old volunteers. The
beaming winner rolled up his sleeve and happily fished around in the
blood temparature goo for around 30 seconds before triumphantly holding
the cap aloft!
Only a problem if you've just shut down, I guess.
Message 25
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Ernie,
Precision approach radar is what PAR stands for. Request it sometime if it is avialable
in your area. Should have it available at Orlando or Tampa. That brings
up a whole new bag of worms, Class B airspace and experimental show aircraft
or just plain experimental aircraft for that part.
Viperdoc
-----Original Message-----
>From: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>Sent: Dec 19, 2005 3:05 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sorta IFR
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
>Excuse my ignorance, I am instrument rated, but never use it. What is PAR????
>
>Ernie
>
>On 12/19/05, Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Brian,
>> I have done partial panel turns to headings using the HSI function on a handheld
GPS (Garmin 295). Everything else except AS, Alt, and turn/bank were covered
on my last instrument check. Use it for SA only.
>> And Yep I'm the dumbass that was lucky enough to survive a total eletrical failure
with nothing more than a AS, ALt, and whiskey compass. Did within about
5 ? min get the battery to reset so got the ADI back and the radios back. My
IP and I then did a PAR back into Luke.
>> Can you control an a/c with only AS, Alt and compass? I did once. No I do not
ever want to try it again.
>> That is why I have a handheld radio and gps as back up in flight bag next to
my right knee.
>> Can you use the gps for AS when the ASI fails. Yes you can...done that also.
Went chasing a faulty AS indicator in my Archer. We went thru 3 ASI's, a new
pitot static boom, and changed all the metal and flexible tubing thru the wing,
side panel and behind the instrument panel trying to find the reason for the
failure at 100kts and above.
>> Turns out the Pipers with electric trim have a trim override sensor inline with
the impact side of pitot/static system. If the electric trim runs awaypitching
the A/C up to near stall, this sensory detects the equalization of pressure
between the impact and static side and turns off the electric trim. As best
as I understand it. Anyway the diaphram in the sensor had a small hole in it.
Bypassed the trim sensor and solved the ASI failures. But to test the AS, ended
using the AS from the GPS to back up the questionalble AS indicator.
>> Can you do timed turns without a gyro? I admit, I am wrong! I was thinking I
still had the turn indicator to do that with when the last EP was written.
>> So Gus, Francis, and all...I'll eat my crow now!
>>
>> Viperdoc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>> >Sent: Dec 19, 2005 10:19 AM
>> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sorta IFR
>> >
>> >--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>> >
>> >Craig Payne wrote:
>> >
>> >> I tried that in an RV-9 with the 296, seemed to track turn rate and
>> >> attitude OK for x-country but I didn't mess with any approaches. OTOH,
>> >> with a backseat CFII, I did a 1.8hr x-country with the CJ under the
>> >> hood, using a handheld, simulating GPS overlay approaches.
>> >
>> >Did you use the GPS to provide stabilized turn info to replace your turn
>> >gyro, i.e., if you had a total electrical failure in the CJ, could you
>> >stay alive with just the pitot static instruments, the ball, and the
>> >handheld GPS?
>> >
>> >I have to quit asking and go out and do it for myself.
>> >
>> >> It was then I
>> >> realized that I would never invest in IFR equipment for the CJ without
>> >> an autopilot first. Start flipping charts and oops.
>> >
>> >The CJ is not a bad platform even without an autopilot. The only problem
>> >is the light control forces make it easy to accidentally nudge the
>> >aircraft off the straight and narrow. The trick is to trim it out
>> >correctly and then let go of the stick completely when you are fiddling
>> >with a chart. It also helps to keep one eye on the AI and the other on
>> >the chart. It is known as the "Marty Feldman" maneuver.
>> >
>> >And there isn't a whole hell of a lot of room for charts either.
>> >
>> >--
>> >Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>> >brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>> >+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>> >
>> >I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>> >- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
Craig,
You missed Jim Selby's Yak 18 (1). Maybe he has not done the paperwork
yet.
Good work! I had always wondered what the total number was.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 1:44 PM
To: yak-list
Subject: Yak-List: Family Numbers
Family, that is the family of Nanchangs and Yakovlevs with variants of the
9-cyl engine we are familiar with...in the USA, as of last Friday night: I
didn't count Sukhois, I-3's/ whatevers. I'm also not sure what manufacturer
52TW's are registered under. What I found interesting was that the number of
CJ's has now caught up and exceeds the number of Yak-52 registrations...at
least the ones I found.
Nanchang CJ-5 2
Nanchang CJ6/CJ-6/CJ-6A/CJ-6G/(nanchang)Yak-18A/Chujiao 251
---------------------------------------------------
Total CJ's = 253
Yakovlev 18A 5
Yakovlev 18T 11
Yakovlev 50 33
Yakovlev 52S 1
Yakovlev 52 175
Aerostar 52 10
Yakovlev 53 1
Yakovlev 54 2
Yaklovlev 55 5
Yakovlev 55M 68
--------------------------------------
Total Yaks = 311
Craig Payne
Message 27
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| Subject: | Mock Turtleneck Shirt |
Who are you talking at boss?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ByronMFox@aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 12:38 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Mock Turtleneck Shirt
Did you really intend to order another one of these today? Happy to
comply, but I want to make sure.
Thanks & Merry Christmas, Blitz
Byron M Fox
The RPA Store
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
415-307-2405 Cell Days
415-380-0907 Home Eves
http://www.flyredstar.org/StoreCSVS/default.aspx
Message 28
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| Subject: | Situational Awareness or lack thereof... |
Ok...a true story.
As a DPE I was giving an Instrument checkride from BJC. Dude shows up
in a brand new B36TC Bonanza. It is IMC. I inform applicant I'm 100%
for disapprovals when attempted in IMC. Applicant wishes to go on with
checkride.
We file. We launch. I notice he is using everything available in the
$500,000 single. I let him get to S&L headed to the GLL VOR to initiate
an approach. I reach over and turn off 400 IFCS system - which
disconnected his A/P. The plane shudders - he fires up the flight
director. We continue. I want him to accomplish the approach without
aids but with a full panel. I d/c the FD. The airplane shudders. I
switch the VOR receiver to the #2. (read: no HSI). The plane
shudders...and in less then two minutes we are in an unusual attitude -
pilot screams - "YOU HAVE IT" With a full panel - no gyros lost
what-so-ever.
I retell this story to make it clear - to me - that I know I need to
stay sharp - maybe we all do.
Merry Christmas to all
Rick B
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Family Numbers |
Correction! I did some more searching on Yaks. You sneaky guys use different A/C
codes for the Yak-52 as well as variations on "Aerostar".
Add:
SC Aerostar Yak-52TW 1 (Oh..that Dalton guy)
Aerostar Yak-52 38 (+10 that I listed from another Aerostar code)
Aerostar Yak-52TW 28
-------------------------------------
Total Yak-52's of various flavors 175 + 67 = 242
Total Yak's of the M-14 variety = 378
Craig Payne
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Real Emergencies |
> But it is just an airspeed indicator. You know the power setting for appr.
> I would have taken her around, and flown a normal pattern, using power
> setting and eng sound, xchecking with altitude for references. This is not
> an emergency.
>
Well it was an emergency to me. I debated briefly and decided to abort as my theory
is that troubleshooting is best done on the ground, with the benefit of a
brewski or two to calm the nerves.
Sooo, the rain-slicked runway provided a skating rink for that hard Chinese tire
rubber. Off the end I went, clipping a runway end light and sliding 20 feet
into mud up to the axles. An airplane with lesser gear structure may have been
in real trouble. A 4x4 hooked a nylon strap to my nose gear and those trailing-link
mains tracked right out to dry grass. Cost $96 at the prop shop plus gas
and road tolls back and forth.
Filed a NASA form and then swapped out all pitot/static hoses. I then spent considerable
effort with a pitot-static test rig to chase down leaks, followed by
a series of AS calibration flights. These flights also helped establish a baseline
for later "efficiency" improvements.
Craig Payne
Message 31
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In a message dated 12/19/2005 11:28:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
brian-yak@lloyd.com writes:
I envy you guys who feel comfortable with the Chinese horizon. I don't how
your brain cells are arranged but mine are hard wired straight up, blue on top.
In unexpected usual attitudes, my reactions are hard wired to reacted one
way. I'd screw it royally trying to recover with the Chinese instrument.
Just to old I guess.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Jon Boede wrote:
>
> > I'm here to vouch for the CJ as an absolutely wonderful IFR platform...
>
> I like it too.
>
> > although I've only done GPS and ILS approaches in it. But to Craig's
> > point, it does help a whole bunch to fold the books open to the approaches
> > you're thinking about in advance -- give the binder a good bend. Very
> > easy to fly the airplane +/- 10 feet and +/- 1 degree ... it's not me, the
> > CJ just makes you look good.
> >
> > Somebody also said something about the Chinese attitude indicator being
> > "backwards". I've found that just like using left rudder instead of
> > right, working with the "backwards" attitude indicator is something my
> > medula straightens out for me automagically. I've never had issues
> > hopping back and forth between the CJ and "normal" airplanes.j
>
> Well, It is only backward in pitch, not roll. I find that when I stick
> my head in the cockpit to transition to the gauges I spend some time
> doing little pitch joggles for about 5 minutes while my brain
> recoordinates for the inverted pitch display. I reduce the problem by
> concentrating on trim and power to maintain airspeed and altitude rather
> than putting in big pitch inputs. Talking myself through the control
> inputs helps too. After about 5-10 minutes there is no difference.
>
> And I have flown some cross-country flights in the clag with the Chinese
> gyros. It isn't all that bad.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Partial panel without gyros |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sarah Tobin wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Sarah Tobin" <vorchaser@hotmail.com>
>
> The "no-gyro" approaches are referring to ASRs and they, of course are
> non-precision, while you are right, the PARs qualify as precision
> approaches. (See Below)
I have done no-gyro GCA/PAR approaches. The final approach controller
then issues "turn right ... stop turn" commands instead of actual headings.
> GROUND CONTROLLED APPROACH- A radar approach system operated from the
> ground by air traffic control personnel transmitting instructions to the
> pilot by radio. The approach may be conducted with surveillance radar
> (ASR) only or with both surveillance and precision approach radar (PAR).
> Usage of the term "GCA" by pilots is discouraged except when referring
> to a GCA facility. Pilots should specifically request a "PAR" approach
> when a precision radar approach is desired or request an "ASR" or
> "surveillance" approach when a nonprecision radar approach is desired.
I agree, it is much more clear to say PAR instead of GCA. Still, after
almost 40 years of flying I still think "GCA" when I hear, "this is your
final approach controller, do not acknowledge any further commands..."
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 33
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| Subject: | Winterization kit for CJ6 |
CJ6 drivers, Attached are the photos of the new winterization kit for the
CJ6. It is modeled after the stock Chinese unit. The Chinese stock unit is
different in that it requires the oil cooler duct fairing to be removed each
spring to remove the slide assembly and does not include a FOD screen. This
new mod requires that you remove the oil cooler duct fairing only once and
that is for installation. The FOD screen stays in place year round. The
slide assembly allows greater control over oil cooler temps in cold weather,
(the door in the photo is shown in the full open position.) The FOD screen
keeps the junk out of the duct. At the last air show I had 2 paper cups
and a pop can deposited in my oil cooler duct by some walkabout that was too
lazy to find a trash can. Price for the kit is $75.00. The simple
installation instructions are below. FOD screen only is $12.00
CJ6 winterization kit installation:
1.. First remove the oil cooler duct fairing
2.. Install the two slide assembly tabs (with the screws provided). The
tabs are to be installed on the flange which is on the back side of the oil
cooler duct fairing. Don't remove the slide assy from the tabs yet.
3.. Slip the preformed screen over the oil cooler plenum flange in the
stub wing--lightly crimp to hold it in place.
4.. Replace the sponge seal.
5.. Slide the oil cooler duct fairing in place over the sponge seal and
screen and replace the screws.
You will not have to remove the oil cooler duct fairing to remove the slide
assembly for summer use, simply remove the two screws which hold the slide
assembly to the tabs and your ready for the summer. Stow the slide assy in
the ditty box for safe keeping.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Message 34
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Ernest Martinez wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> Excuse my ignorance, I am instrument rated, but never use it. What is PAR????
Precision Approach Radar is where the controller can see you relative to
the runway centerline and relative to the glide path. The controller
literally talks you all the way to the ground providing both lateral and
vertical guidance.
First they pick you up on the airport surveillance radar (ASR) which is
essentially the type of ATC radar we are used to. They provide vectors
to the gate of the PAR which is very precise but has a relatively small
window to find you.
Once the ASR controller has gotten you to the beginning of the PAR
approach (think: just outside the outer marker) the final approach
controller takes over and then gives you a steady stream of commands.
You just execute them and don't acknowledge.
The controller will provide you with small heading changes and rate of
descent changes. He/she will also provide you with your position left,
right, above, or below the glide path, and your distance from the runway
touchdown zone. In the final phase of the approach he/she will tell you
your hight above ground thus allowing you to safely flare and land, all
without ever seeing anything outside the window.
Go try it. Then try it partial panel. Ask for a "no gyro" approach and
they will even tell you when to start and stop your turns (half standard
rate BTW).
I used to practice PAR regularly. They are the most fun approaches to
fly. And when everything else has gone to hell in your airplane and you
have already ruined your flight suit, it is most comforting to hear,
"this is your final approach controller. Do not acknowledge any further
instructions ..." I suspect you could do it with a handheld GPS, a
handheld comm radio, the ball, and your pitot-static instruments.
Something to consider when the generator fries the battery and ALL your
gyros roll over and die.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 35
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <barry@flyredstar.org>
On Dec 18, 2005, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> They call the flare pretty accurately considering they don't deal
> with much GA a/c. We were a little hot, but they are normally really
> good
> about speeds and altitude.
>
> Smash
For the civilian pilot, the PAR is one of the most astounding things I
have ever done in an airplane. I did a couple down in Yuma during my
IFR training....we were down to about 10 feet before my instructor let
me look outside....right on centerline! I was, and remain, amazed at
the accuracy with which the ground controllers fly the approach (all
you are is an autopilot with a pulse!).
B
Message 36
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| Subject: | Merry Christmas from our feathered friends |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Barry Hancock <barry@flyredstar.org>
Sorry, I couldn't resist....the 1st one on the right in the front row
bears a striking resemblance to Pappy.... ;)-
http://www.fullervoice.com/cluck/play.html
Barry
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency |
Some thoughts and questions on the over voltage problem.
The stock CJ does not use a carbon pile regulator. The factory installation is
a 1930/1940's vintage 3 unit control box consisting of a voltage regulator, reverse
current relay and current limiting relay. The solid state system in some
CJ's (the one experiencing the problem!) is a PLAAF modification which apparently
has never been adopted by the manufacturer. Correct me if I am wrong here
Doug. To my knowledge it is not covered in any of the available manuals and I
don't know of anyone who has successfully repaired one..
All of the 24V model T6's use a carbon pile regulator and the AN3025 (if I remember
the number correctly) control box which contains the r.v. and c.l. relays.
This same combination was used on virtually every 24V US manufactured aircraft
in the 1950's. There was no seperate over voltage relay but possibly this was
included in the AN3025 box. Does anyone know?
The Canadian built Harvard 4 was the only exception in the T6 series. It uses the
same carbon pile regulator, but a seperate reverse current relay AND a cockpit
mounted, resettable, over voltage relay. In 26+ years I have never had occasion
to use it and have never heard of anyone else using it.
The kit that Joe has put together uses the same carbon pile regulator as the T6/Harvard/DC3/DC4
etc. etc. It has proven to have outstanding reliability. I am
not aware of the other components in the kit. Could you fill that in Joe?
And a question for Dennis. What does the 52 system consist of? Carbon pile, solid
state or? Is the over voltage protection a seperate unit or part of a "black
box"?
I will seriously consider Brian's advice re the Zeftronics o.v. unit for my project
even though I have the original CJ control unit which apparently has not
yet been an o.v. problem. Brian, do you have any information on the AN3025 unit
whether it includes o.v. protection? Might even be in your Aztec if it's 24V.
Cheers;
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Linebaugh
To: yak-list@matronics. com
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 4:41 AM
Subject: Yak-List: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency
To the Yak-Listers:
OK, we've left you hanging long enough on the electrical problem
from a few days ago...
Actually, I was a little surprised at the limited amount of discussion
that this situation generated (besides Brian, but he had the inside scoop,
and was acting as the "straight-man"). Is it that in a day-VFR situation, it
is very cut and dried? i.e. turn off the Battery and Generator/Alternator and
land as soon as possible...). One consideration that wasn't covered is how toxic
an electrical fire or battery explosion can be.
Day/VFR formation? Still, turn off the Bat and Gen immediately and
head for the nearest place to land, regardless of whether you have a wingman
or not. This is a serious problem, and requires you to not delay: devote all
your attention to get the airplane on the ground ASAP.
IFR? Now you really have a life-or-death problem, as Brian pointed
out. Most of our Yaks/CJs are all electric gyro airplanes. Get clear of the
clouds ASAP.
OK, I promised more on this problem. Bob "Kilo" Watts brought this
situation up, concerned for the well being of his Red Star comrades. It seems
that this particular emergency has occurred, with various outcomes, at least
three times in the recent past. In one case, it only resulted in some fried wires.
The other two cases were more dramatic, one with a battery EXPLOSION, the
other with some major electrical system damage. The outcomes in all cases could
have been a lot worse. We don't mean to be alarmists here, but this topic,
we believe, requires some careful consideration.
Over the past week, we have collected information from several of
the pilars of our group. Some 100 e-mails later, there are still some questions,
but we can offer up what we learned. Here is a summary:
a.. The 3 occurrences were all in CJs with the later model solid-state
voltage regulators. It seems these regulators have a "full on" failure
mode which can cause the generator to run at very high voltage and current.
b.. This over voltage condition will likely cause damage to radio
equipment, can cause electical fires, and overheat batteries.
c.. According to Brian, this failure mode of the voltage regulator
is not unique to our aircraft. In fact, most "spams" share this problem. However,
most are protected with an over voltage relay to protect the electrical
system.
d.. The older style carbon-pyle type CJ voltage regulators are
less prone to this failure mode.
e.. According to Jill Gernetske, stock Yak 52s are protected with
over voltage protection, reverse current protection, and a 50 amp fuse at the
battery.
f.. As best we can tell, stock CJs are only protected with the
50 amp battery fuse.
g.. 50 amps, for a period of time, is still more than enough current
to overheat a battery, even in the Yak 52 set up.
h.. According to Doug Sapp, the Chinese have not run in to this
problem.
i.. For people who have converted to the B & C alternator and voltage
regulator, it contains an overvoltage relay to protect against this type
of failure.
So what do we do with this information?
a.. Be forewarned. If you see symptoms of electrical problems,
get them resolved ASAP
b.. If you have the newer style CJ voltage regulator, consider
adding some protection. Brian Lloyd has been working on an economical improvement
to help prevent electrical runaways. He has talked with Bob Nuckolls (AeroElectric
Connection and
the designer of the B&C alternator controller) and Bob is going
to roll a custom OV protection module for the CJ6A. Brian will work with him
on how best to install it.
c.. If you have the older style CJ voltage regulator, Joe Howse
has come up with a "bolt-on" replacement kit for these hard to find regulators.
d.. We need to continue to look for more information as to why
these problems have occurred. Is it because non-stock batteries were used? Is
it because of modifications, or damage due to charging or "jump-starting" or ...?
e.. In the near future, look for a more comprehensive safety bulletin
from the RPA addressing this situation.
We don't want to see one of our fellow Yakers run in to this problem.
Please, if you have anything further to add on this subject, we welcome all
inputs! Stay tuned for more on this subject...
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
Message 38
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Brian,
Thanks for the "as usual" very detaild explanation. I've heard of them
but not in any great detail. I was never taught very much on the
subject, but I would think that this should have been instructed to me
during my instrument training.
Would it be out of context to possibly offer some seminars on the
subject during our clinics? I would definately sit in.
Ernie
On 12/19/05, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> Ernest Martinez wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> >
> > Excuse my ignorance, I am instrument rated, but never use it. What is PAR????
>
> Precision Approach Radar is where the controller can see you relative to
> the runway centerline and relative to the glide path. The controller
> literally talks you all the way to the ground providing both lateral and
> vertical guidance.
>
> First they pick you up on the airport surveillance radar (ASR) which is
> essentially the type of ATC radar we are used to. They provide vectors
> to the gate of the PAR which is very precise but has a relatively small
> window to find you.
>
> Once the ASR controller has gotten you to the beginning of the PAR
> approach (think: just outside the outer marker) the final approach
> controller takes over and then gives you a steady stream of commands.
> You just execute them and don't acknowledge.
>
> The controller will provide you with small heading changes and rate of
> descent changes. He/she will also provide you with your position left,
> right, above, or below the glide path, and your distance from the runway
> touchdown zone. In the final phase of the approach he/she will tell you
> your hight above ground thus allowing you to safely flare and land, all
> without ever seeing anything outside the window.
>
> Go try it. Then try it partial panel. Ask for a "no gyro" approach and
> they will even tell you when to start and stop your turns (half standard
> rate BTW).
>
> I used to practice PAR regularly. They are the most fun approaches to
> fly. And when everything else has gone to hell in your airplane and you
> have already ruined your flight suit, it is most comforting to hear,
> "this is your final approach controller. Do not acknowledge any further
> instructions ..." I suspect you could do it with a handheld GPS, a
> handheld comm radio, the ball, and your pitot-static instruments.
> Something to consider when the generator fries the battery and ALL your
> gyros roll over and die.
>
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Walter Lannon wrote:
> The stock CJ does not use a carbon pile regulator. The factory
> installation is a 1930/1940's vintage 3 unit control box consisting
> of a voltage regulator, reverse current relay and current limiting
> relay.
OK, so it is a standard 3 relay regulator.
> The solid state system in some CJ's (the one experiencing the
> problem!) is a PLAAF modification which apparently has never been
> adopted by the manufacturer. Correct me if I am wrong here Doug. To
> my knowledge it is not covered in any of the available manuals and I
> don't know of anyone who has successfully repaired one..
The problem with the "solid state" regulators is that there is a pass
transistor to control the field current. If that transistor shorts, the
full bus potential goes into the field and the output of the generator
turns on hard.
> I will seriously consider Brian's advice re the Zeftronics o.v. unit for
> my project even though I have the original CJ control unit which
> apparently has not yet been an o.v. problem. Brian, do you have any
> information on the AN3025 unit whether it includes o.v. protection?
> Might even be in your Aztec if it's 24V.
Sorry, no info. The Aztruck is 14V and uses a standard 14V regulator. It
does have an OV relay.
Actually it uses one regulator to drive both alternators in parallel.
Very strange but it works. It does have a problem in that a flying short
in one alternator can take out the regulator and hence the other
alternator. It is amazing the stuff that the FAA has let pass as
"certified".
Bob came up with a crowbar OV module to remove the drive from a relay in
place of the existing generator switch. The generator switch then
turns the relay on and off. It will definitely work.
The CJ's electrical system is fertile ground for improvement.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 40
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Ernest Martinez wrote:
> Brian,
>
> Thanks for the "as usual" very detaild explanation. I've heard of them
> but not in any great detail. I was never taught very much on the
> subject, but I would think that this should have been instructed to me
> during my instrument training.
The problem is that there are no civil PARs left in the US therefore the
FAA does not teach them. The military used to have them as a matter of
course but even there they are being phased out. The only time you are
ever going to fly a real PAR to a landing is during an emergency.
But the military still has some and the controllers do need practice. If
the PAR controllers are on duty you can sometimes get a practice PAR
approach.
> Would it be out of context to possibly offer some seminars on the
> subject during our clinics? I would definately sit in.
There really isn't a lot to tell you. The key is to actually go fly one.
Find a military strip nearby that has PAR and then ask if you can get
some practice approaches.
If you want a safety pilot I would be happy to swap the left seat with
you so we both can practice PAR.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 41
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Paul Sidey" <psidey@msn.com>
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Sorta IFR
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Ernest Martinez wrote:
> Brian,
>
> Thanks for the "as usual" very detaild explanation. I've heard of them
> but not in any great detail. I was never taught very much on the
> subject, but I would think that this should have been instructed to me
> during my instrument training.
The problem is that there are no civil PARs left in the US therefore the
FAA does not teach them. The military used to have them as a matter of
course but even there they are being phased out. The only time you are
ever going to fly a real PAR to a landing is during an emergency.
But the military still has some and the controllers do need practice. If
the PAR controllers are on duty you can sometimes get a practice PAR
approach.
> Would it be out of context to possibly offer some seminars on the
> subject during our clinics? I would definately sit in.
There really isn't a lot to tell you. The key is to actually go fly one.
Find a military strip nearby that has PAR and then ask if you can get
some practice approaches.
If you want a safety pilot I would be happy to swap the left seat with
you so we both can practice PAR.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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