---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/20/05: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:09 AM - Re: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency (A. Dennis Savarese) 2. 06:14 AM - Looking for Members or Yak / CJ drivers @ KLZU (David McGirt) 3. 06:39 AM - Another EP (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 06:49 AM - Corrected Family Numbers (Craig Payne) 5. 08:56 AM - Re: Another EP (David Marsh) 6. 08:58 AM - Craig Payn (JOE HOWSE) 7. 09:02 AM - Re: Another EP (Ernest Martinez) 8. 09:19 AM - Re: Another EP (David Marsh) 9. 10:05 AM - Re: Another EP (Doug Sapp) 10. 10:57 AM - Re: Another EP (Roger Kemp) 11. 11:12 AM - Re: Another EP (A. Dennis Savarese) 12. 11:37 AM - Re: Another EP (Roger Kemp) 13. 12:29 PM - oil pump (was: Another EP) (Brian Lloyd) 14. 12:48 PM - Re: Another EP (Jim Shafer) 15. 12:49 PM - Are ADIZs the real War on Christmas :) (Stephen Fox) 16. 05:18 PM - Re: oil pump (was: Another EP) (Walter Lannon) 17. 05:37 PM - Waycross RPA Fly-In/FAST Clinic (Shane Golden) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:29 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency The standard 52 has a carbon pile voltage regulator (very reliable too) and a resetable over current relay, which is in a separate box. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Lannon To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency Some thoughts and questions on the over voltage problem. The stock CJ does not use a carbon pile regulator. The factory installation is a 1930/1940's vintage 3 unit control box consisting of a voltage regulator, reverse current relay and current limiting relay. The solid state system in some CJ's (the one experiencing the problem!) is a PLAAF modification which apparently has never been adopted by the manufacturer. Correct me if I am wrong here Doug. To my knowledge it is not covered in any of the available manuals and I don't know of anyone who has successfully repaired one.. All of the 24V model T6's use a carbon pile regulator and the AN3025 (if I remember the number correctly) control box which contains the r.v. and c.l. relays. This same combination was used on virtually every 24V US manufactured aircraft in the 1950's. There was no seperate over voltage relay but possibly this was included in the AN3025 box. Does anyone know? The Canadian built Harvard 4 was the only exception in the T6 series. It uses the same carbon pile regulator, but a seperate reverse current relay AND a cockpit mounted, resettable, over voltage relay. In 26+ years I have never had occasion to use it and have never heard of anyone else using it. The kit that Joe has put together uses the same carbon pile regulator as the T6/Harvard/DC3/DC4 etc. etc. It has proven to have outstanding reliability. I am not aware of the other components in the kit. Could you fill that in Joe? And a question for Dennis. What does the 52 system consist of? Carbon pile, solid state or? Is the over voltage protection a seperate unit or part of a "black box"? I will seriously consider Brian's advice re the Zeftronics o.v. unit for my project even though I have the original CJ control unit which apparently has not yet been an o.v. problem. Brian, do you have any information on the AN3025 unit whether it includes o.v. protection? Might even be in your Aztec if it's 24V. Cheers; Walt ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Linebaugh To: yak-list@matronics. com Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 4:41 AM Subject: Yak-List: EP of the Week #3 Electrical Emergency To the Yak-Listers: OK, we've left you hanging long enough on the electrical problem from a few days ago... Actually, I was a little surprised at the limited amount of discussion that this situation generated (besides Brian, but he had the inside scoop, and was acting as the "straight-man"). Is it that in a day-VFR situation, it is very cut and dried? i.e. turn off the Battery and Generator/Alternator and land as soon as possible...). One consideration that wasn't covered is how toxic an electrical fire or battery explosion can be. Day/VFR formation? Still, turn off the Bat and Gen immediately and head for the nearest place to land, regardless of whether you have a wingman or not. This is a serious problem, and requires you to not delay: devote all your attention to get the airplane on the ground ASAP. IFR? Now you really have a life-or-death problem, as Brian pointed out. Most of our Yaks/CJs are all electric gyro airplanes. Get clear of the clouds ASAP. OK, I promised more on this problem. Bob "Kilo" Watts brought this situation up, concerned for the well being of his Red Star comrades. It seems that this particular emergency has occurred, with various outcomes, at least three times in the recent past. In one case, it only resulted in some fried wires. The other two cases were more dramatic, one with a battery EXPLOSION, the other with some major electrical system damage. The outcomes in all cases could have been a lot worse. We don't mean to be alarmists here, but this topic, we believe, requires some careful consideration. Over the past week, we have collected information from several of the pilars of our group. Some 100 e-mails later, there are still some questions, but we can offer up what we learned. Here is a summary: a.. The 3 occurrences were all in CJs with the later model solid-state voltage regulators. It seems these regulators have a "full on" failure mode which can cause the generator to run at very high voltage and current. b.. This over voltage condition will likely cause damage to radio equipment, can cause electical fires, and overheat batteries. c.. According to Brian, this failure mode of the voltage regulator is not unique to our aircraft. In fact, most "spams" share this problem. However, most are protected with an over voltage relay to protect the electrical system. d.. The older style carbon-pyle type CJ voltage regulators are less prone to this failure mode. e.. According to Jill Gernetske, stock Yak 52s are protected with over voltage protection, reverse current protection, and a 50 amp fuse at the battery. f.. As best we can tell, stock CJs are only protected with the 50 amp battery fuse. g.. 50 amps, for a period of time, is still more than enough current to overheat a battery, even in the Yak 52 set up. h.. According to Doug Sapp, the Chinese have not run in to this problem. i.. For people who have converted to the B & C alternator and voltage regulator, it contains an overvoltage relay to protect against this type of failure. So what do we do with this information? a.. Be forewarned. If you see symptoms of electrical problems, get them resolved ASAP b.. If you have the newer style CJ voltage regulator, consider adding some protection. Brian Lloyd has been working on an economical improvement to help prevent electrical runaways. He has talked with Bob Nuckolls (AeroElectric Connection and the designer of the B&C alternator controller) and Bob is going to roll a custom OV protection module for the CJ6A. Brian will work with him on how best to install it. c.. If you have the older style CJ voltage regulator, Joe Howse has come up with a "bolt-on" replacement kit for these hard to find regulators. d.. We need to continue to look for more information as to why these problems have occurred. Is it because non-stock batteries were used? Is it because of modifications, or damage due to charging or "jump-starting" or ...? e.. In the near future, look for a more comprehensive safety bulletin from the RPA addressing this situation. We don't want to see one of our fellow Yakers run in to this problem. Please, if you have anything further to add on this subject, we welcome all inputs! Stay tuned for more on this subject... Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/ CJ-6P N621CJ Memphis, TN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:42 AM PST US From: "David McGirt" Subject: Yak-List: Looking for Members or Yak / CJ drivers @ KLZU Anyone on the list based at LZU, Gwinnett County outside Atlanta? David ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:30 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Yak-List: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" This EP comes from one of our colleagues in Lithuania. It originated from a former DOSAFF flight instructor in Lithuania. You are flying normally in your Yak 52 on a cross-country. During your normal instrument scan, you notice the oil pressure reading below zero. What should be the action taken? Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-2141 Office 334-546-8182 Mobile www.yak-52.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:42 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Yak-List: Corrected Family Numbers Arrggg! I should have know better than to trust the FAA's own "front-end" to their registration database! Using a private sector front-end, I found other A/C registered under different record codes (codes not shown here). Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... (Nanchang) Yak18A/Yak18-A/CJ6/CJ-6/CJ6A/CJ-6A/CHUJIAO-6 214 CJ5 2 Total Nanchangs (current) 216 Yakovlev/Aerostar flavors of the Yak-52 252 Other reported M-14 flavors of Yak 125 Total (current) M-14 based Yaks 377 Soooo, not counting small Yaks and Really Big Yaks, we have 593 on the registry. Note that some registrations were not populated anymore, having been stricken from the rolls due to "attrition" or export. If I totaled up the Sukhoi's and NATA Sukhoi's; add in Wilgas and there are a lot of eastern block round engines over here. So where are they come Oskosh or Sun 'n Fun? Could you imagine 100 plane formations? Put "Pappy" in the back of that one so he can holler at everyone :>) Craig Payne ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:33 AM PST US From: David Marsh Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: David Marsh 1. Ask the GIB what his gauge reads 2. Cycle the prop speed to see if it reacts normally 3. Check the engine gauges switch on the left side panel is selected on (it's a circuit breaker switch; something else may have kicked it off) The prop speed control is your safest clue. If it shows any reluctance to come back to minimum RPM, it's time to find a place to land. These engines will run dry for a while, so you may consider it safer to press for the nearest airfield rather than ditch in the sea. I believe George Coy managed to fly an AN2 with zero oil pressure for a full hour. The engine was toast at the end of that, but as the alternative was a ditching in the Atlantic near Iceland (brrr..) I think he made the right choice. So here's the supplementary. Does anyone have evidence/opinion on how long an M14P will run with no oil pressure? I don't care if the engine is a write-off at the end of the flight, how long MIGHT it keep running at cruise power? ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Yak-List: Another EP > You are flying normally in your Yak 52 on a cross-country. During your > normal instrument scan, you notice the oil pressure reading below zero. > What should be the action taken? > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:59 AM PST US From: JOE HOWSE Subject: Yak-List: Craig Payn Craig Would you contact me off list please Joe Howse ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:28 AM PST US From: Ernest Martinez Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez do not archive. Depends.....Is it running MMO? :) Ernie On 12/20/05, David Marsh wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: David Marsh > > 1. Ask the GIB what his gauge reads > 2. Cycle the prop speed to see if it reacts normally > 3. Check the engine gauges switch on the left side panel is selected on > (it's a circuit breaker switch; something else may have kicked it off) > > The prop speed control is your safest clue. If it shows any reluctance to > come back to minimum RPM, it's time to find a place to land. These engines > will run dry for a while, so you may consider it safer to press for the > nearest airfield rather than ditch in the sea. I believe George Coy managed > to fly an AN2 with zero oil pressure for a full hour. The engine was toast > at the end of that, but as the alternative was a ditching in the Atlantic > near Iceland (brrr..) I think he made the right choice. > > So here's the supplementary. Does anyone have evidence/opinion on how long > an M14P will run with no oil pressure? I don't care if the engine is a > write-off at the end of the flight, how long MIGHT it keep running at cruise > power? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. Dennis Savarese" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:39 AM > Subject: Yak-List: Another EP > > > > You are flying normally in your Yak 52 on a cross-country. During your > > normal instrument scan, you notice the oil pressure reading below zero. > > What should be the action taken? > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:18 AM PST US From: David Marsh Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP <002e01c60586$5e3ab4a0$6502a8c0@desktop> <5d7b0ec70512200902s497421d9vc127028a0a19836a@mail.gmail.com> --> Yak-List message posted by: David Marsh DO NOT ARCHIVE LOL! Very good point. Forgot to ask if the pilot had consumed Wheaties and MMO for breakfast. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Martinez" . > > Depends.....Is it running MMO? :) > > Ernie ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:37 AM PST US From: "Doug Sapp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: "Doug Sapp" Assuming no gib, I would continue to monitor all other points but would favor instrument failure as the root problem. "Normally" if the oil pressure section of the 3/1 gauge (in a CJ) reads BELOW zero it is "most likely" shorted out and is pegged in it's most downward position. If in reality you have 0 oil pressure the gauge should read 0, not below 0. This is CJ lore, and may not apply to the 52. Best Christmas Wishes (and oil pressure) to all, Doug Sapp ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Yak-List: Another EP > You are flying normally in your Yak 52 on a cross-country. During your > normal instrument scan, you notice the oil pressure reading below zero. > What should be the action taken? > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:49 AM PST US From: Roger Kemp Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp Dennis, From the translated YAK-52 Operations Manual Chpt 8 Emergency Proceedures 8.2 Oil Pressure Drop 1."Check cylinder head temperature, if it "grows up", then land immediately to airfield or suitable site. 2. Otherwise throughly monitor temperature and return to airfield for landing as soon as possible." Since it is winter now, what is the OAT? At or below freezing? Would consider oil conjelling in the oil cooler. I am not sure cycling the prop will offer much if the oil pressure is zero. The prop should have already moved to course pitch by the action of the counter weights. Certainly if you cycle it and you do not get a pitch change, then you really do not have any oil pressure. Since I generally do not fly with a GIB, I could not ask the RCP oil pressure reading. There are plenty of causes for zero oil pressure: Failed oil pressure sending unit Oil line vibrated loose and you are dumping (have dumped) oil over the side Failed oil pump Oil freezing in the oil cooler Forgot to saftey clip the fine screen filter on the capillary line to the prop governor and it vibrated out Forgot to saftey wire the main filter screen on the firewall after an oil change Forgot to reinstall the clip in the sump drain and it vibrated open Forgot to completely close the oil tank drain after an oil change Changed the oil and did not refill the tank In any case, I would heed the first line of the checklist and land as soon as possible. Especially if the cylinder head temps are rising. Since I have no experience with freezing oil in the cooler, I can not comment on what to expect and I have not been able to find whether the YAK-52 has a cooler bypass valve for cases where the oil does congeal in the cooler. Would the pressure go up instead of down... I do not know. I defer to one smarter than me on this. Viperdoc -----Original Message----- >From: "A. Dennis Savarese" >Sent: Dec 20, 2005 8:39 AM >To: yak-list@matronics.com >Subject: Yak-List: Another EP > >--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" > >This EP comes from one of our colleagues in Lithuania. It originated from a >former DOSAFF flight instructor in Lithuania. > >You are flying normally in your Yak 52 on a cross-country. During your >normal instrument scan, you notice the oil pressure reading below zero. >What should be the action taken? > >Dennis > >A. Dennis Savarese >334-285-2141 Office >334-546-8182 Mobile >www.yak-52.com > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:57 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" Yes, the oil cooler does have a bypass valve. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP > --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp > > Dennis, > From the translated YAK-52 Operations Manual > Chpt 8 Emergency Proceedures > 8.2 Oil Pressure Drop > 1."Check cylinder head temperature, if it "grows up", then land > immediately to airfield or suitable site. > 2. Otherwise throughly monitor temperature and return to airfield for > landing as soon as possible." > > Since it is winter now, what is the OAT? At or below freezing? Would > consider oil conjelling in the oil cooler. I am not sure cycling the prop > will offer much if the oil pressure is zero. The prop should have already > moved to course pitch by the action of the counter weights. Certainly if > you cycle it and you do not get a pitch change, then you really do not > have any oil pressure. Since I generally do not fly with a GIB, I could > not ask the RCP oil pressure reading. > There are plenty of causes for zero oil pressure: > Failed oil pressure sending unit > Oil line vibrated loose and you are dumping (have dumped) oil over the > side > Failed oil pump > Oil freezing in the oil cooler > Forgot to saftey clip the fine screen filter on the capillary line to the > prop governor and it vibrated out > Forgot to saftey wire the main filter screen on the firewall after an oil > change > Forgot to reinstall the clip in the sump drain and it vibrated open > Forgot to completely close the oil tank drain after an oil change > Changed the oil and did not refill the tank > In any case, I would heed the first line of the checklist and land as soon > as possible. Especially if the cylinder head temps are rising. > Since I have no experience with freezing oil in the cooler, I can not > comment on what to expect and I have not been able to find whether the > YAK-52 has a cooler bypass valve for cases where the oil does congeal in > the cooler. Would the pressure go up instead of down... I do not know. I > defer to one smarter than me on this. > Viperdoc > > -----Original Message----- >>From: "A. Dennis Savarese" >>Sent: Dec 20, 2005 8:39 AM >>To: yak-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Yak-List: Another EP >> >>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" >> >> >>This EP comes from one of our colleagues in Lithuania. It originated from >>a >>former DOSAFF flight instructor in Lithuania. >> >>You are flying normally in your Yak 52 on a cross-country. During your >>normal instrument scan, you notice the oil pressure reading below zero. >>What should be the action taken? >> >>Dennis >> >>A. Dennis Savarese >>334-285-2141 Office >>334-546-8182 Mobile >>www.yak-52.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:58 AM PST US From: Roger Kemp Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp Doug has a point, failed guage is another possiblity. I'm still landing as soon as possible to investigate the below zero pressure. Viperdoc -----Original Message----- >From: "A. Dennis Savarese" >Sent: Dec 20, 2005 1:12 PM >To: yak-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP > >--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" > >Yes, the oil cooler does have a bypass valve. >Dennis > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Roger Kemp" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:57 PM >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Another EP > > >> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp >> >> Dennis, >> From the translated YAK-52 Operations Manual >> Chpt 8 Emergency Proceedures >> 8.2 Oil Pressure Drop >> 1."Check cylinder head temperature, if it "grows up", then land >> immediately to airfield or suitable site. >> 2. Otherwise throughly monitor temperature and return to airfield for >> landing as soon as possible." >> >> Since it is winter now, what is the OAT? At or below freezing? Would >> consider oil conjelling in the oil cooler. I am not sure cycling the prop >> will offer much if the oil pressure is zero. The prop should have already >> moved to course pitch by the action of the counter weights. Certainly if >> you cycle it and you do not get a pitch change, then you really do not >> have any oil pressure. Since I generally do not fly with a GIB, I could >> not ask the RCP oil pressure reading. >> There are plenty of causes for zero oil pressure: >> Failed oil pressure sending unit >> Oil line vibrated loose and you are dumping (have dumped) oil over the >> side >> Failed oil pump >> Oil freezing in the oil cooler >> Forgot to saftey clip the fine screen filter on the capillary line to the >> prop governor and it vibrated out >> Forgot to saftey wire the main filter screen on the firewall after an oil >> change >> Forgot to reinstall the clip in the sump drain and it vibrated open >> Forgot to completely close the oil tank drain after an oil change >> Changed the oil and did not refill the tank >> In any case, I would heed the first line of the checklist and land as soon >> as possible. Especially if the cylinder head temps are rising. >> Since I have no experience with freezing oil in the cooler, I can not >> comment on what to expect and I have not been able to find whether the >> YAK-52 has a cooler bypass valve for cases where the oil does congeal in >> the cooler. Would the pressure go up instead of down... I do not know. I >> defer to one smarter than me on this. >> Viperdoc >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: "A. Dennis Savarese" >>>Sent: Dec 20, 2005 8:39 AM >>>To: yak-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Yak-List: Another EP >>> >>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" >>> >>> >>>This EP comes from one of our colleagues in Lithuania. It originated from >>>a >>>former DOSAFF flight instructor in Lithuania. >>> >>>You are flying normally in your Yak 52 on a cross-country. During your >>>normal instrument scan, you notice the oil pressure reading below zero. >>>What should be the action taken? >>> >>>Dennis >>> >>>A. Dennis Savarese >>>334-285-2141 Office >>>334-546-8182 Mobile >>>www.yak-52.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:47 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Yak-List: oil pump (was: Another EP) --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Has anyone considered that these engines actually have two oil pumps? There is one that provides pressure oil to the engine and another that scavenges the sump and pumps the oil to the oil cooler whereupon it returns to the oil tank. Has anyone heard of only one of the pumps failing? Since there is no instrumentation on the scavenge pump, how do you know if it has failed? What happens when it fails? -- Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:39 PM PST US From: "Jim Shafer" Subject: Yak-List: Re: Another EP --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Shafer" Zero oil pressure with M-14 will cause prop to go to coarse pitch. Your RPM will be near 55%. Been there twice. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:37 PM PST US From: Stephen Fox Subject: Yak-List: Are ADIZs the real War on Christmas :) Steve "SOB" Fox Yak 52 N3043R http://homepage.mac.com/steve.fox/PhotoAlbum5.html ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:56 PM PST US From: "Walter Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: oil pump (was: Another EP) --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" > > Has anyone considered that these engines actually have two oil pumps? > There is one that provides pressure oil to the engine and another that > scavenges the sump and pumps the oil to the oil cooler whereupon it > returns to the oil tank. Has anyone heard of only one of the pumps > failing? Yes, but not on the Huosai or M14. Both pumps are contained in one assembly and driven by a common shaft, same as P&W. A failure would likely involve both. Since there is no instrumentation on the scavenge pump, how do > you know if it has failed? What happens when it fails? Fluctuation and eventual loss of oil pressure as the oil tank is emptied. Happened to me with a Ranger engine, variable and dropping oil press. Close to home so down in short order, shut down on final. No oil left in tank, lots in engine. Scavange pump (seperate drive) quill shaft had failed. Other than that no engine damage. Walt > Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. > brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:03 PM PST US From: Shane Golden Subject: Yak-List: Waycross RPA Fly-In/FAST Clinic "'Bill Kirton'" So far we have 26 pilots and 25 aircraft signed up for Waycross next month with 8 students attending. If you plan to attend and haven't registered yet please sign up at http://www.flyredstar.org/A_EventsReg.aspx?Event_ID=RPA147 or contact me via email or phone. It looks like we have at least 5 people who want to fly acro with Sergei. The acro box is approved and will be owned by the FBO. All you have to do is sign the waiver. Cannon Aviation Insurance is sponsoring the event so vans, lunch/dinner for Fri/Sat are covered. Students will only need to cover the costs of manuals. An attendance list is enclosed. If you signed up and you're not on the list let me know. I'll get the final info out after New Year's. Y'all have a Merry Christmas!! Shane Golden 803-532-9063 Home 803-629-7456 Cell