Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:51 AM - Re: Pressure Relief Valve (Hans Oortman)
2. 01:55 AM - spins (Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd)
3. 03:50 PM - Re: Pressure Relief Valve (Roger Kemp)
4. 04:10 PM - Re: Forced Landing (Roger Kemp)
5. 05:54 PM - Re: Forced Landing (Frank Stelwagon)
6. 06:49 PM - Re: Forced Landing (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Pressure Relief Valve |
I see it always just above the 50 bars, that is in the front cockpit as well
as the back one.
Sounds like your pressure valve needs some adjustment, i.e. to be replaced.
Dutch Yak Pilot
Hans
_____
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens PHCarter@aol.com
Verzonden: zaterdag 7 januari 2006 4:27
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: Yak-List: Pressure Relief Valve
Recently I started watching my air pressure in flight in order to
characterize normal values for a typical flight. During cruise the pressure
gets up to 60 atms. This appears too high to me. What is a cruise pressure
other folks see?
Preston Carter
N6209F, Yak-52
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Talking of spins how many types can you get in one down line? Types that is and
not turns.
ANS, 3, flat inverted, knife edge, flat errect. (in that order) These are all
full power on spins.
Start at 5000ft and do 4 turns inverted flat, 2 turns knife, then 2 turns flat
errect you will soon find yourself at 1500ft. This news clip from Denmark shows
the above.
http://www.tv2regionerne.dk/video.asp?Id=253836
I have not tried this in the YAK 50 in one down line but assume it will work
if you get the knife edge balanced OK. (Flat spin the Yak 50 right foot, very
simple and gracefull figure)
as Frank says, have a plan.
Be warned the knife edge spin eats height !
have fun, :>))
oh, this clip shows just the inverted flat spin but it was 2004 and Im still
learning.
http://www.yak52.aero/2004-4min.wmv
Time: 04:47:22 PM PST US From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: Spins can kill if you're not prepared!!
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yakkers
A word of advice from experience.........
NEVER, NEVER, EVER, enter an intentional spin without having in your mind
a
set number of turns you are going to do. In other words....enter an
intentional spin thinking "I'm going to do one turn, two turns or whatever.
BUT HAVE THE NUMBER OF TURNS YOU ARE GOING TO DO IN YOUR MIND BEFORE YOU
DO
THEM!! This advice can save your life! If nothing else you need to watch
the
altimeter and not of the spinning earth!
Why do I tell you this now? I was reading the FAA accident statistics
database and discovered the following entry for a Sukoi driver...........
"According to the show announcer, the pilot performed the corkscrew maneuver
that contained 56 consecutive snap rolls. He then climbed to an approximate
altitude of 5000 feet and informed the announcer that he was going to
conduct a flat spin maneuver. According to the announcer the number of
rotations the pilot conducted seemed to exceed the normal amount the pilot
had conducted in the past. The spin maneuver continued until the airplane
collided with the water. No evidence of mechanical, flight controls or
control surfaces anomalies were discovered during the post-accident
examination of the airplane wreckage".
I had a similar experience during my aerobatic check ride years ago. The
instructor said "let me see what you got!" I then proceeded to do a number
of different aerobatic maneuvers without a set plan in mind. I was
ad-libbing to show the instructor what I could do. During all this the
instructor asked for a spin so I gave him one. Well, I entered the spin
without a clear, set number of turns in mind. "Hell! I'm just going to spin
this thing and show him I can do it!"................ I spun from 6000 to
the floor of 1500 when "HE" physically took control of the aircraft and
terminated the flight.
I failed the check ride. During the de-brief the instructor said that "you
have to have a clear number of turns in mind as you enter a spin". He
related many instances of fully conscious pilots impacting the ground in
aircraft perfectly recoverable from any spin maneuver. "The spin can
mesmerize so be prepared". If you don't have in mind a set number of turns
as you enter a spin you may wind up like many other air show performers who
kept enjoying (or showing off) the spin until it killed them.
Frank
Best regards, Mark
www.yakuk.com
+44 (0)1767 651156 office +44 (0)7785 538 317 mobile
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Pressure Relief Valve |
My pop-off is set for 6 0 ATM.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans Oortman
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Pressure Relief Valve
I see it always just above the 50 bars, that is in the front cockpit as well as
the back one.
Sounds like your pressure valve needs some adjustment, i.e. to be replaced
Dutch Yak Pilot
Hans
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens PHCarter@aol.com
Verzonden: zaterdag 7 januari 2006 4:27
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: Yak-List: Pressure Relief Valve
Recently I started watching my air pressure in flight in order to characterize
normal values for a typical flight. During cruise the pressure gets up to 60
atms. This appears too high to me. What is a cruise pressure other folks see?
Preston Carter
N6209F, Yak-52
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Forced Landing |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> [Original Message]
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 1/7/2006 12:34:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Forced Landing
> We can Monday-morning quarterback until we are blue in the face but I
> would have to say that the end result says that the decisions made were
> correct.
Tell that to him if he had ripped his mains off in the watering hole he
missed by a couple of feet. Or If that rut had been 2 feet deeper that his
nose gear bounced through. Tell him that while he is being crushed to death
by the wt of that CJ after it flipped on its back.
People smarter than me write checklist for a reason. This person was lucky
... that is all.
> You know, it takes cojones to lay your whole decision making process out
> there for others to pick at.
We do it all the time in the AF, Navy, and Army aviation. We call it Flying
Safety meetings.
>
> The story is a keeper and probably will end up in front of all of my
> students. Nothing like a real-life scenario to impart some education.
Will you tell them that as long as it ends ok, it was the correct thing to
do dispite the DASH-1 or and the check-list saying the exact opposite.
Since we seldom try to off field land an AF jet, guess it is a moot point
for us AF types.
I will still chose to follow the checklist and land gear up if I have a
suitable field to put down in. Otherwise, I will jetison my YAK for the
silk let down.
Doc
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Forced Landing |
If he had followed "The Checklist" he would have probably lost the CJ. As it
was what he did turned out all right so you cannot fault it. That is the reason
we have brains and hopefully use them. To say that a check list is the absolute
is to say that we have no brains and cannot evaluate and adjust to changing
situations. I guess that some would bail out if the checklist said to with
no evaluation of the situation. I guess that I have had different instructors
- use the checklist but also think and evaluate.
Frank
CJ6-A N23021
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Forced Landing |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Kemp wrote:
>>We can Monday-morning quarterback until we are blue in the face but I
>>would have to say that the end result says that the decisions made were
>>correct.
>
> Tell that to him if he had ripped his mains off in the watering hole he
> missed by a couple of feet. Or If that rut had been 2 feet deeper that his
> nose gear bounced through. Tell him that while he is being crushed to death
> by the wt of that CJ after it flipped on its back.
Making some assumptions here, aren't we?
> People smarter than me write checklist for a reason.
Often times, no, they don't. Many times people make up checklists by
guess and by god as there is no way to really determine the validity
ahead of time. I would not be at all surprised if this were the case for
the checklist in the Yak-52. It may have been a case where Comrade Igor
was instructed to produce a checklist and without any data to guide him
just made something up that sounded good. Maybe he copied it from
something else. Who knows. On the other hand they may have actually done
some forced landing testing. The Soviets could be very thorough when it
suited them.
One way of getting rid a significant amount of energy without killing
the pilot might be to rip the gear off. Certainly we train students to
aim to go between a pair of trees in a short emergency field in order to
rip the wings off to get rid of energy. Is the nose gear strong enough
to flip the aircraft without failing in the process? I suspect not. But
I don't know. Maybe you are right.
There is a lot of "well everybody knows that ..." floating around in
aviation with no real support.
> This person was lucky
> ... that is all.
I agree. He was lucky. Sometimes luck is the best you can hope for. I
hope to hell that you and I both have full luck buckets when the time
comes to need it.
>>You know, it takes cojones to lay your whole decision making process out
>>there for others to pick at.
>
> We do it all the time in the AF, Navy, and Army aviation. We call it Flying
> Safety meetings.
<rude comment deleted> Do you think that your response is going to
encourage others to discuss this? For better or worse, this is not the
Air Force, the Navy, or Army Aviation. People here are doing this
because they want to, not because it is their job. IMHO one needs to
approach this subject in a manner that encourages rather than discourages.
He made some decisions and then analyzed them after the fact. His
analysis seemed pretty good to me. He even identified the possible
problems in his post-landing analysis. Now you come along and say he was
wrong. Seems to me he saw the possible problems from his decision
process. That was good. I fail to see how you are really adding to the
process here.
But this didn't seem wrong to me so, just for grins I went back and
looked at the checklist for the CJ6A for forced landing. This is the
checklist that has been promulgated for the last 6-7 years that I know
of and the one I teach from. Here is the section on forced landings:
FORCED LANDING
Airspeed................................80 KIAS
Propeller...............................Low RPM
Landing Site............................Determine
Radio Call (if possible)................Declare Emergency
Emergency Fuel Shutoff..................Close
Magnetos................................Off (0)
Landing Gear............................As Required
Wing Flaps..............................Down
Wow! He came darned close to properly executing the accepted CJ6A forced
landing checklist! I certainly have no beef with his procedures. He made
a decision based on his analysis of the landing site to put his gear
down. I wasn't there so I am not going to fault him.
But maybe we should change the accepted CJ6A forced landing checklist.
OTOH, it worked just fine in this case. I would be interested to see how
many gear-down forced landings ended in injuries because the gear was
down. I haven't heard of any and I have heard of a couple where people
walked away and the airplane was reusable.
>>The story is a keeper and probably will end up in front of all of my
>>students. Nothing like a real-life scenario to impart some education.
>
>
> Will you tell them that as long as it ends ok, it was the correct thing to
> do dispite the DASH-1 or and the check-list saying the exact opposite.
Uh, check out the checklist above.
> Since we seldom try to off field land an AF jet, guess it is a moot point
> for us AF types.
Right. Landing speeds are just too high to result in the people walking
away. The statistics I have heard state that 90% of forced landings that
take place below 60 kts result in the people surviving. 90% of forced
landings at speeds above 90 kts are fatal. That is something I have
always considered in looking at the crop of hot-rod single-engine
homebuilts. I'd bet your Viper glides faster than 90 kts. Yeah, I would
certainly punch.
> I will still chose to follow the checklist and land gear up if I have a
> suitable field to put down in. Otherwise, I will jetison my YAK for the
> silk let down.
That is certainly the right thing to do. Since he commented on his wife
buying him 'chutes perhaps the caterpillar club was not an option for
him on this flight.
I would like to encourage people to talk about their decision making
process without hitting them over the head for it.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|