Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:34 AM - Re: eric Beard died in Cargo Plane Friday (Russian Thu (fraseg)
2. 06:16 AM - Re: Silicone Tape (Ron Davis)
3. 06:44 AM - Re: check lists, forced landings, and pilots (Ron Davis)
4. 06:51 AM - Re: Air bottles (H.Oortman)
5. 06:54 AM - Re: Air bottles (Ron Davis)
6. 07:12 AM - Re: Air bottles (Fraser, Gus)
7. 07:18 AM - Re: Air bottles (cgalley)
8. 07:28 AM - Re: Air bottles (Brian Lloyd)
9. 07:31 AM - Re: Air bottles (Richard Basiliere)
10. 07:39 AM - Oxygen quality (was: Air bottles) (Brian Lloyd)
11. 07:39 AM - Re: Air bottles (A. Dennis Savarese)
12. 07:51 AM - Re: Air bottles (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 08:20 AM - Re: Air bottles (Fraser, Gus)
14. 08:22 AM - Barry's Website (JOE HOWSE)
15. 08:27 AM - Re: Air bottles (Brian Lloyd)
16. 09:21 AM - Re: Barry's Website (doug sapp)
17. 09:48 AM - Re: Silicone Tape (doug sapp)
18. 11:37 AM - Re: Air bottles (A. Dennis Savarese)
19. 11:41 AM - Re: Silicone Tape (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
20. 12:08 PM - Re: check lists, forced landings, and pilots (Roger Kemp)
21. 12:35 PM - Re: Barry's Website (ByronMFox@aol.com)
22. 12:59 PM - Re: Silicone Tape (Edwin Curry)
23. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Silicone Tape (D.E.Robertson)
24. 03:07 PM - Re: Re: Silicone Tape (doug sapp)
25. 03:20 PM - Re: Re: Re: Silicone Tape (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
26. 03:40 PM - NWOC Engine panel (MFilucci@aol.com)
27. 04:38 PM - Test (Frank)
28. 04:42 PM - Re: Test (Frank)
29. 04:44 PM - Re: Test (Frank)
30. 05:17 PM - Re: Re: Re: Silicone Tape (ggg6@att.net)
31. 05:46 PM - Round Engines (Frank Haertlein)
32. 05:55 PM - Re: Air bottles (Brian Lloyd)
33. 06:09 PM - POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS (Frank Haertlein)
34. 06:22 PM - Re: Round Engines (Roger Kemp)
35. 06:39 PM - Insurance Survey (Scooter)
36. 07:07 PM - Re: Insurance Survey (Scooter)
37. 07:37 PM - Re: Air bottles (Ron Davis)
38. 07:41 PM - Re: Insurance Survey (Scooter)
39. 07:54 PM - Re: SWAK (Desmor944@aol.com)
40. 07:54 PM - Re: check lists, forced landings, and pilots (Ron Davis)
41. 08:01 PM - Re: Oxygen quality (was: Air bottles) (Ron Davis)
42. 08:10 PM - Re: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS (Ron Davis)
43. 09:00 PM - Re: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS (Brian Lloyd)
44. 09:08 PM - Winds over the Caribbean (was: Oxygen quality) (Brian Lloyd)
45. 11:26 PM - Re: Air bottles (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: eric Beard died in Cargo Plane Friday (Russian Thu |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "fraseg" <fraseg@comcast.net>
Eric was a really great guy, he always had time for others and was always willing
to share his experience, a great loss and a sad start to the year. His family
have requested that rather than flowers a contribution to Emmery Riddle be
made see
Gus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2422#2422
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Silicone Tape |
Teflon tape is an emotional subject in airplanes. Some people think it's about
as appropriate as highheels are, others use it all the time. Most people just
confuse the matter. Walt, for example, says below that the seal is made by
the metal to metal flare. Yes it is, and what a dumb place to try to put teflon
tape (on a flared fitting). Taper pipe threads (NPT) benefit from teflon tape
and that's what it's made for. The tape I use has a Mil-Spec and I therefore
assume the military uses it for something other than drinking water pipes.
It also is beneficial for pneumatic instrument fittings, as is silicone tape which
is where this thread started.
Silicone tape has lots of uses in airplanes. To answer the original question:
If you were thinking of using if for instrument airlines it will probably work
well. If you were thinking of using it for the high pressure air fittings,
it's unlikely it will help. It won't hurt anything though, so give it a try if
you want.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
To: 'yak-list@matronics.com'
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
That said..... and I agree with the fact that you should not use it...... it
is very common in the military to use teflon tape as an emergency fix if you have
the flare leaking slightly. The tape is placed BEHIND the flare and as the
nut is screwed tight, it seals it. I am not ENDORSING this as a "fix". It
is one of those "use at your own risk" recommendations, but done properly, it
will not get into the system and it will in fact seal a connector even at 3000
psi. Where I have seen it used is just as a "one time only to get it home"
fix.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon [mailto:wlannon@cablerocket.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:21 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
The use of teflon plumbing tape is verbotten in aircraft hydraulic systems,
pneumatic systems are no different in this regard.
In any case the seal is made by the flare (or flareless type) metal to metal
joint not the fitting threads. The correct thread lubricant is Parker Seallube
or Threadlube.
A small piece of plumbing tape in a close tolerance hydraulic or pneumatic
valve can not only cause a leak but can also cause a valve seizure.
Walt
riginal Message -----
From: cgalley
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
You are talking about the white Teflon tape I presume. I won't let any of
that stuff near an airplane. It creates real problems on even low pressure systems.
Your gas grill uses very low pressure. Probably measured in inches of water.
Takes almost 28 inches of water to have a psi of just one pound. When you
talk 50 atm, multiply by 14.7 or 735 psi. I'll bet the system is designed for
metal to metal seals due to the extremely pressure. No sealers wanted or necessary.
The "tape" even if it seals a connection will cause leaks as any little bit
caught in a valve might cause it to leak. Your system needs to be free of
foreign contaminates. Teflon tape is a foreign contaminate.
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: John E. Lansden
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:20 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
Am thinking of using the "silicone tape" to seal all my air system connections.
It seems to work great on my gas grill connection and other applications
where a good seal is necessary. Anyone see any problem with using it in this
application?
Jim Lankford
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: check lists, forced landings, and pilots |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Roger,
I don't doubt what you say, but in fighters it doesn't matter much what the
crash rate is. When they fall out of the sky, they tend to fall on people
we want to kill anyway in places where we won't be sued for damages. How do
you feel about the prospects for pilot-less airliners? Are you looking
forward to riding in them?
I don't have the statistics, so I'll quote someone who has a lot of data and
knows far more about it than I do: Burt Rutan. He said that if the U-2 had
the casualty rate of the Global Hawk drone, the Air Force/CIA would have
used them all up, had to rebuild the factory and make a second production
equal to the first, and they would all be used up by now. He made this
comment at Oskosh a few years ago.
86 U-2s were built and 35 of the 50s/60s production are still in service,
largely because each has pilot that really wants go be at home when the
mission is over. I've never come across a silicon-base unit that cared one
way or the other.
When did the US replace this obsolete old fashion pilot-operated aircraft
that first flew in 1955? It's only an estimate, but currently it's slated
to be completely replaced by Global Hawk in 2011... if they can get the
production rate to exceed the crash rate.
Where would be now without slicone-based high speed digital computers? A
better question might be where would be if we had a couple of Kelly
Johnson's at work in a couple of Skunk Works.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Ron,
> That concept is closer than you think. It is said in my community that we
> are seeing the last manned fighters. This is the last generation of
> fighter pilots.
> It is not very far off at all!
> A chilling thought but true none the less.
> By the way, the causalty rates for drones is less than that of the carbon
> units. Unless you are a raghead carrying a mortor tube though the date
> grove near Fallusia. Damned amazing what a Hell fire launched from a
> lurking predator will do to ruin an ambush! Not that I'm for taking the
> human out of the cockpit. I'm not! But it will soon be a fact of life as
> we know it.
> Sad but true, the carbon units will be coming out of the cockpits to be
> replaced by silicon waffers.
> I can see the swagger at the causual bar on Friday night.. "Hi, I'm R2D2
> cuttie... does your silicon go all the way to your really nice waffers?
> ...wanta play with my pigtail and jiggle my antennae?"
> Dogmatic Viperdoc
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Ron Davis <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>Sent: Jan 9, 2006 1:51 PM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
>>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>>If there wasn't a need for thinking, there wouldn't be a need for a human
>>at
>>the controls. You could just program a computer with the "always" and
>>"never" rules and send it off with a load of paying passengers. Look up
>>the
>>casualty rates for drones if you can't visualize how well this would work
>>on
>>your own.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:39 AM
>>Subject: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
>>
>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>>>
>>> I felt that my exchange with Roger was starting to get a bit acrimonious
>>> so I quit without saying some of the things I wanted to say. (I guess I
>>> must be getting old.) Pappy then popped up and made a number of my major
>>> points for me. I am glad to see I am not thinking these things by
>>> myself.
>>>
>>> I am not knocking emergency checklists. Heck, when everything is going
>>> to hell in a hand basket and you are in real fear of dying, your brain
>>> is not going to work too well. Having those emergency checklists burned
>>> into your brain so you *do* something is a wonderful thing. Even if your
>>> brain never comes back on-line there is a good chance that your
>>> emergency check list will have accomplished something positive. It might
>>> even save your life or save your airplane. This is A Very Good Thing.
>>>
>>> But the checklist is no substitute for real thought as Pappy pointed
>>> out. If you are thinking you probably have time to try a couple of
>>> things that might not be in the checklist. This is especially true of
>>> things like electrical and pneumatic problems in our airplanes. And it
>>> is still true of a forced landing with a seized engine as you have to
>>> select and evaluate a landing spot. It is amazing just how much time
>>> only a little time is.
>>>
>>> And any time you can make a decision ahead of time you are better off as
>>> well. It takes time to make a decision and sometimes you do not have
>>> that time. Engine failure in the pattern is a perfect example. If you
>>> figure out from where in the pattern you can make it back to the runway
>>> and then adhere to that decision you will be able to act more quickly in
>>> the case where the fan stops turning. You can probably even figure out
>>> where your emergency landing sites are going to be in the neighborhood
>>> of your home field and then decide ahead of time whether each will be a
>>> gear-up or gear-down site.
>>>
>>> Roger, I apologize for apparently baiting you. I tend to do that,
>>> especially when I perceive someone being dogmatic. For those of you who
>>> have been around since the beginning, you remember how I used to bait
>>> Mike McCoy. The reason I did it was because Mike was dogmatic and
>>> inflexible. Everything was "by the book" with no apparent room for
>>> thought and evaluation. Don't get me wrong; I thought Mike was a very
>>> good pilot and instructor and his departure from the Yak/CJ community is
>>> a loss to all of us. But he would get in these rigid though patterns
>>> that would prevent him from even trying to analyze whether what he
>>> "knew" was right. That was when I would "beat him up" on some topic to
>>> try to get his attention and get him thinking about different
>>> approaches. (<sigh> It didn't work and I get awshit points for not
>>> figuring out a better way of dealing with him. Mea Culpa.)
>>>
>>> My experience is such that, Any time someone says to you the words
>>> "always" or "never" with regard to doing something in an airplane, they
>>> are almost always wrong. There will always (ha, I just did it myself) be
>>> an exception and only your brain will tell you when you need to exercise
>>> that exception. Our brains have oversized frontal lobes for a reason.
>>> Regardless of whether you think they are a gift of God or a lucky
>>> survival trait, use them.
>>>
>>> And please remember something else: we are all here because we love
>>> flying.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>>> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>>
>>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "H.Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
As I said, be carefull in doing this...the fire fighter and/or scuba dive
bottles maintain 300 or 200 bars of pressure. Our bottles will never
equalize with these ones...remember we only need 50 bars.....backflow will
never occur...before that either the yak bottle has been blown to pieces
(and your Yak as well....) or the pressure valve has released...I hope for
you the latter.....
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens fish@aviation-tech.com
Verzonden: maandag 9 januari 2006 13:37
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
--> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
Yaksters,
I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect to
your system. This is dangerous!
Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there tanks.
at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for breathing
air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some pressure
in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
thing
can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their tanks to
yours, there system will become contaminated.
I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier air
air
(compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
contaminated
air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
breating
air (compressed or Oxygen).
Fly Safe
John fischer
>
>
>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>at
L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with >him.
>
>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>the
mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety >engineers
determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from Scott
constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things like
that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>
>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system, >Interspiro
perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with the
existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many years
ago.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Basiliere
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
>
> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>Universal
threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a big
"event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to fill
our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd love
to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a dime
a dozen.
>
> Respectfully, rick b
>
> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>SCUBA
> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>in
> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>ways
> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have >a
> fire department on the field.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>which
> > I
> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>which
> > goes
> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve >which
> > goes
> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>i.e.,
> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>used
> > by
> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>wants
to
> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>his.
> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>bars),
> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years >already
and
> > it works perfectly.
> >
> > Hans
> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
> >
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Gus,
> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
> > Doc
> >
> >
> >> [Original Message]
> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
> >>
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
> >>
> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>changed.
I
> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>regulator
> > to
> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme >sport
in
> > the
> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
> > refill.
> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up >
> >> little
> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
> >>
> >> Gus
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> >>
> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
> >>
> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>used
> >> to
> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>something:
> >>
> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping >the
CJ
> > is
> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
> >>
> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
> > fitting
> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around >hasn't
> >> been
> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far, >after
> >> 1,200
> >> hours.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >>
> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>places
> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>schraeder
> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does >the
> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>worth
> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>fitting
> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting >to
> >> > keeo
> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To >make
it
> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you >will
> >> > have no brakes!
> >> >
> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
> >> >
> >> > Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>t
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Air flows from high pressure to low, and there are spring loaded check
valves throughout the filling systems that keep "equalized" pressure from
ever really being equal. Even without them, no system fills the "empty"
tank to a higher pressure than the supply (it's a physics thing) so it then
starts flowing the other way.
Your're right, you can't be too safe. That's why many people buy AVIATORS
breathing oxygen instead of that nasty old welding oxygen (cynicism alert-
if you're gullible stop reading now) which is full of water/oil/bugs/cat
entrails.
----- Original Message -----
From: <fish@aviation-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
>
> Yaksters,
>
> I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect
> to
> your system. This is dangerous!
>
> Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there
> tanks.
> at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for
> breathing
> air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some
> pressure
> in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
>
> I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
> thing
> can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their tanks
> to
> yours, there system will become contaminated.
>
> I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier air
> air
> (compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
> contaminated
> air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
> breating
> air (compressed or Oxygen).
>
> Fly Safe
> John fischer
>
>
>>
>>
>>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>> >at
> L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with >him.
>
>>
>>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>> >the
> mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety
> >engineers
> determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from
> Scott
> constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things
> like
> that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>>
>>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system,
>> >Interspiro
> perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with
> the
> existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many years
> ago.
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Richard Basiliere
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>
>>
>> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>> >Universal
> threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a
> big
> "event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to
> fill
> our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd
> love
> to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a
> dime
> a dozen.
>>
>> Respectfully, rick b
>>
>> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>> >SCUBA
>
>> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>> >in
>
>> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>> >ways
>
>> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have
>> >a
>
>> fire department on the field.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>
>>
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>> >
>> > Guys,
>> >
>> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>> >which
>
>> > I
>> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>> >which
>
>> > goes
>> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve
>> >which
>
>> > goes
>> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>> >i.e.,
>
>> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>> >used
>
>> > by
>> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
>> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>> >wants
> to
>> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>> >his.
>
>> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>> >bars),
>
>> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years
>> >already
> and
>> > it works perfectly.
>> >
>> > Hans
>> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
>> >
>> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
>> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
>> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
>> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>> >
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
>> ><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
>> >
>> > Gus,
>> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
>> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
>> > Doc
>> >
>> >
>> >> [Original Message]
>> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>> >>
>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>> >>
>> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>> >changed.
> I
>> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>> >regulator
>
>> > to
>> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme >sport
> in
>> > the
>> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
>> > refill.
>> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up >
>
>> >> little
>> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
>> >>
>> >> Gus
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>> >>
>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>> >>
>> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>> >used
>
>> >> to
>> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>> >something:
>
>> >>
>> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping
>> >the
> CJ
>> > is
>> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
>> >>
>> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
>> > fitting
>> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around
>> >hasn't
>
>> >> been
>> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far, >after
>
>> >> 1,200
>> >> hours.
>> >>
>> >> Jon
>> >>
>> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
>> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>> >places
>
>> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>> >schraeder
>
>> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does >the
>
>> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>> >worth
>
>> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>> >fitting
>
>> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting
>> >to
>
>> >> > keeo
>> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
>> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To >make
> it
>> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you >will
>
>> >> > have no brakes!
>> >> >
>> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
>> >> >
>> >> > Joe
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
> >nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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|
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
Speaking of the check valve. The check valve on my fill port has a slow
leak, are the balls the same as the ones in the uplocks ? If so who was
offering the hard balls a while ago, and I am talking durons not anything
else.
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Davis
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Air flows from high pressure to low, and there are spring loaded check
valves throughout the filling systems that keep "equalized" pressure from
ever really being equal. Even without them, no system fills the "empty"
tank to a higher pressure than the supply (it's a physics thing) so it then
starts flowing the other way.
Your're right, you can't be too safe. That's why many people buy AVIATORS
breathing oxygen instead of that nasty old welding oxygen (cynicism alert-
if you're gullible stop reading now) which is full of water/oil/bugs/cat
entrails.
----- Original Message -----
From: <fish@aviation-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
>
> Yaksters,
>
> I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect
> to
> your system. This is dangerous!
>
> Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there
> tanks.
> at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for
> breathing
> air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some
> pressure
> in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
>
> I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
> thing
> can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their tanks
> to
> yours, there system will become contaminated.
>
> I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier air
> air
> (compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
> contaminated
> air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
> breating
> air (compressed or Oxygen).
>
> Fly Safe
> John fischer
>
>
>>
>>
>>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>> >at
> L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with >him.
>
>>
>>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>> >the
> mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety
> >engineers
> determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from
> Scott
> constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things
> like
> that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>>
>>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system,
>> >Interspiro
> perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with
> the
> existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many years
> ago.
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Richard Basiliere
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>
>>
>> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>> >Universal
> threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a
> big
> "event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to
> fill
> our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd
> love
> to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a
> dime
> a dozen.
>>
>> Respectfully, rick b
>>
>> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>> >SCUBA
>
>> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>> >in
>
>> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>> >ways
>
>> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have
>> >a
>
>> fire department on the field.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>
>>
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>> >
>> > Guys,
>> >
>> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>> >which
>
>> > I
>> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>> >which
>
>> > goes
>> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve
>> >which
>
>> > goes
>> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>> >i.e.,
>
>> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>> >used
>
>> > by
>> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
>> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>> >wants
> to
>> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>> >his.
>
>> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>> >bars),
>
>> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years
>> >already
> and
>> > it works perfectly.
>> >
>> > Hans
>> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
>> >
>> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
>> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
>> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
>> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>> >
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
>> ><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
>> >
>> > Gus,
>> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
>> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
>> > Doc
>> >
>> >
>> >> [Original Message]
>> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>> >>
>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>> >>
>> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>> >changed.
> I
>> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>> >regulator
>
>> > to
>> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme >sport
> in
>> > the
>> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
>> > refill.
>> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up >
>
>> >> little
>> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
>> >>
>> >> Gus
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>> >>
>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>> >>
>> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>> >used
>
>> >> to
>> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>> >something:
>
>> >>
>> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping
>> >the
> CJ
>> > is
>> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
>> >>
>> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
>> > fitting
>> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around
>> >hasn't
>
>> >> been
>> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far, >after
>
>> >> 1,200
>> >> hours.
>> >>
>> >> Jon
>> >>
>> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
>> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>> >places
>
>> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>> >schraeder
>
>> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does >the
>
>> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>> >worth
>
>> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>> >fitting
>
>> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting
>> >to
>
>> >> > keeo
>> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
>> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To >make
> it
>> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you >will
>
>> >> > have no brakes!
>> >> >
>> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
>> >> >
>> >> > Joe
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>t
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
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| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Ron, Your statement about welding oxygen might have been tongue in cheek but
the facts are Welding oxygen has to be the most pure of the three common
specs. Aviators breathing is next followed by I believe. medical. In
reality ALL oxygen at this time is fractionally distilled from liquid air.
We are talking temps over 100 BELOW zero. Not possible for any water to be
in any of the three, so that when used for medicinal purposes, it is
sometime bubbled thru a water bath for the patient. So you can fill your
supplemental oxygen from any of these three but cheapest is the same as the
most expensive. Welding oxygen works fine but if Medicare is paying, get it
from the medical house.
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> Air flows from high pressure to low, and there are spring loaded check
> valves throughout the filling systems that keep "equalized" pressure from
> ever really being equal. Even without them, no system fills the "empty"
> tank to a higher pressure than the supply (it's a physics thing) so it
> then starts flowing the other way.
>
> Your're right, you can't be too safe. That's why many people buy AVIATORS
> breathing oxygen instead of that nasty old welding oxygen (cynicism alert-
> if you're gullible stop reading now) which is full of water/oil/bugs/cat
> entrails.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <fish@aviation-tech.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
>>
>> Yaksters,
>>
>> I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect
>> to
>> your system. This is dangerous!
>>
>> Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there
>> tanks.
>> at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for
>> breathing
>> air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some
>> pressure
>> in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
>>
>> I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
>> thing
>> can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their tanks
>> to
>> yours, there system will become contaminated.
>>
>> I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier air
>> air
>> (compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
>> contaminated
>> air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
>> breating
>> air (compressed or Oxygen).
>>
>> Fly Safe
>> John fischer
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>>> >at
>> L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with
>> >him.
>>
>>>
>>>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>>> >the
>> mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety
>> >engineers
>> determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from
>> Scott
>> constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things
>> like
>> that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>>>
>>>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system,
>>> >Interspiro
>> perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with
>> the
>> existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many
>> years ago.
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Richard Basiliere
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>>> >Universal
>> threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a
>> big
>> "event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to
>> fill
>> our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd
>> love
>> to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a
>> dime
>> a dozen.
>>>
>>> Respectfully, rick b
>>>
>>> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>>> >SCUBA
>>
>>> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>>> >in
>>
>>> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>>> >ways
>>
>>> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have
>>> >a
>>
>>> fire department on the field.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> >
>>> > Guys,
>>> >
>>> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>>> >which
>>
>>> > I
>>> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>>> >i.e.,
>>
>>> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>>> >used
>>
>>> > by
>>> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
>>> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>>> >wants
>> to
>>> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>>> >his.
>>
>>> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>>> >bars),
>>
>>> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years
>>> >already
>> and
>>> > it works perfectly.
>>> >
>>> > Hans
>>> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
>>> >
>>> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>>> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
>>> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
>>> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
>>> ><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>>> >
>>> > Gus,
>>> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
>>> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
>>> > Doc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> [Original Message]
>>> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
>>> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >>
>>> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>>> >changed.
>> I
>>> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>>> >regulator
>>
>>> > to
>>> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme
>>> >sport
>> in
>>> > the
>>> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
>>> > refill.
>>> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up
>>> >
>>
>>> >> little
>>> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
>>> >>
>>> >> Gus
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>>> >>
>>> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>>> >used
>>
>>> >> to
>>> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>>> >something:
>>
>>> >>
>>> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping
>>> >the
>> CJ
>>> > is
>>> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
>>> >>
>>> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
>>> > fitting
>>> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around
>>> >hasn't
>>
>>> >> been
>>> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far,
>>> >after
>>
>>> >> 1,200
>>> >> hours.
>>> >>
>>> >> Jon
>>> >>
>>> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
>>> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>>> >places
>>
>>> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>>> >schraeder
>>
>>> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does
>>> >the
>>
>>> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>>> >worth
>>
>>> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>>> >fitting
>>
>>> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting
>>> >to
>>
>>> >> > keeo
>>> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
>>> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To
>>> >make
>> it
>>> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you
>>> >will
>>
>>> >> > have no brakes!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Joe
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>> >nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
>
Message 8
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
H.Oortman wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "H.Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>
> As I said, be carefull in doing this...the fire fighter and/or scuba dive
> bottles maintain 300 or 200 bars of pressure. Our bottles will never
> equalize with these ones...remember we only need 50 bars.....backflow will
> never occur...before that either the yak bottle has been blown to pieces
> (and your Yak as well....) or the pressure valve has released...I hope for
> you the latter.....
This isn't specifically addressed to Hans' comments but it seems as if
there is a lot of confusion about filling the Yak/CJ air system from a
higher-pressure system when, in reality, it is neither difficult nor
dangerous.
I used to fill my CJ6A from a 3000 psi (200 bar) SCUBA bottle. I have
also filled it from a 2200 psi N2 bottle. It never was a problem. Here
is how you do it.
1. Connect the HP source to the refill port on the Yak or CJ using the
appropriate adapter.
2. Turn on the main air system valve.
3. Slowly crack the valve between the HP source and the aircraft's fill
port.
4. When you hear air begin to flow leave the source valve alone.
5. Shut off the source valve when you hear the pop-off valve pop off.
6. Shut off the main air valve in the aircraft.
7. Bleed off any pressure in the line between the HP source and the
aircraft. (There should be a bleed valve for this.)
8. Disconnect the lines and adapters (if any).
If you have a second person you can monitor the amount of air added
using the main system pressure gauge in the cockpit and shut off the
source of air when you have achieved the desired pressure. You can do
this yourself by adding a little air, stopping, checking the pressure,
and then going back to add more air. The only extra cost here is time
and a workout for your legs as you get up and down from the aircraft
multiple times.
Frankly, I never filled past about 30 Kg/cm
2. I would save the air in
my SCUBA bottle so I could get more fills from it. Using it this way I
could get about 4 fills from a 20 cu-ft "pony" bottle.
Oh, and if you let the high pressure air flow in too quickly the pop-off
valve will immediately let go even though very little air has been added
to the system. This is sort of a fail-safe thing and lets you know you
are flowing the HP air/N2 too quickly.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 9
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|
Exactly, thank you. Don't believe it? Call Air Liquide
>>> cgalley@qcbc.org 1/10/2006 8:17:34 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Ron, Your statement about welding oxygen might have been tongue in cheek but
the facts are Welding oxygen has to be the most pure of the three common
specs. Aviators breathing is next followed by I believe. medical. In
reality ALL oxygen at this time is fractionally distilled from liquid air.
We are talking temps over 100=B0 BELOW zero. Not possible for any water to be
in any of the three, so that when used for medicinal purposes, it is
sometime bubbled thru a water bath for the patient. So you can fill your
supplemental oxygen from any of these three but cheapest is the same as the
most expensive. Welding oxygen works fine but if Medicare is paying, get it
from the medical house.
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> Air flows from high pressure to low, and there are spring loaded check
> valves throughout the filling systems that keep "equalized" pressure from
> ever really being equal. Even without them, no system fills the "empty"
> tank to a higher pressure than the supply (it's a physics thing) so it
> then starts flowing the other way.
>
> Your're right, you can't be too safe. That's why many people buy AVIATORS
> breathing oxygen instead of that nasty old welding oxygen (cynicism alert-
> if you're gullible stop reading now) which is full of water/oil/bugs/cat
> entrails.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <fish@aviation-tech.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
>>
>> Yaksters,
>>
>> I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect
>> to
>> your system. This is dangerous!
>>
>> Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there
>> tanks.
>> at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for
>> breathing
>> air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some
>> pressure
>> in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
>>
>> I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
>> thing
>> can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their tanks
>> to
>> yours, there system will become contaminated.
>>
>> I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier air
>> air
>> (compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
>> contaminated
>> air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
>> breating
>> air (compressed or Oxygen).
>>
>> Fly Safe
>> John fischer
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>>> >at
>> L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with
>> >him.
>>
>>>
>>>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>>> >the
>> mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety
>> >engineers
>> determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from
>> Scott
>> constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things
>> like
>> that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>>>
>>>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system,
>>> >Interspiro
>> perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with
>> the
>> existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many
>> years ago.
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Richard Basiliere
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>>> >Universal
>> threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a
>> big
>> "event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to
>> fill
>> our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd
>> love
>> to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a
>> dime
>> a dozen.
>>>
>>> Respectfully, rick b
>>>
>>> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>>> >SCUBA
>>
>>> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>>> >in
>>
>>> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>>> >ways
>>
>>> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have
>>> >a
>>
>>> fire department on the field.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> >
>>> > Guys,
>>> >
>>> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>>> >which
>>
>>> > I
>>> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>>> >i.e.,
>>
>>> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>>> >used
>>
>>> > by
>>> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
>>> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>>> >wants
>> to
>>> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>>> >his.
>>
>>> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>>> >bars),
>>
>>> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years
>>> >already
>> and
>>> > it works perfectly.
>>> >
>>> > Hans
>>> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
>>> >
>>> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>>> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
>>> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
>>> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
>>> ><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>>> >
>>> > Gus,
>>> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
>>> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
>>> > Doc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> [Original Message]
>>> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
>>> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >>
>>> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>>> >changed.
>> I
>>> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>>> >regulator
>>
>>> > to
>>> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme
>>> >sport
>> in
>>> > the
>>> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
>>> > refill.
>>> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up
>>> >
>>
>>> >> little
>>> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
>>> >>
>>> >> Gus
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>>> >>
>>> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>>> >used
>>
>>> >> to
>>> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>>> >something:
>>
>>> >>
>>> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping
>>> >the
>> CJ
>>> > is
>>> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
>>> >>
>>> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
>>> > fitting
>>> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around
>>> >hasn't
>>
>>> >> been
>>> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far,
>>> >after
>>
>>> >> 1,200
>>> >> hours.
>>> >>
>>> >> Jon
>>> >>
>>> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
>>> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>>> >places
>>
>>> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>>> >schraeder
>>
>>> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does
>>> >the
>>
>>> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>>> >worth
>>
>>> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>>> >fitting
>>
>>> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting
>>> >to
>>
>>> >> > keeo
>>> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
>>> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To
>>> >make
>> it
>>> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you
>>> >will
>>
>>> >> > have no brakes!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Joe
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>> >nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Oxygen quality (was: Air bottles) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
cgalley wrote:
> medical. In reality ALL oxygen at this time is fractionally distilled
> from liquid air.
Yes. All three, welding O2, ABO, and medical O2 are 100% identical. They
are "tested" to different standards but all are identical and come from
the same source.
> So you can fill your supplemental oxygen from any of these
> three but cheapest is the same as the most expensive.
Right.
> Welding oxygen
> works fine but if Medicare is paying, get it from the medical house.
And you may run into a need for a prescription if you are buying medical
O2. It is also more expensive than welding O2.
BTW, I used to fill my O2 bottle in the USVI for $11 at the local
welding supply place. I used it almost every trip to and from the US as
I would typically operate at 15,000-18,000 feet.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 11
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|
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Gus,
If the check valves in your airplane look like the ones in the 52, there are
no balls inside of it like the ones used on the shuttle valves for the gear
actuators. They have three components; a spring; bronze piston that is
square with rounded corners that has a hard rubber seal on the top; a disk
that the piston rubber seal presses against to seal it off.
I had to buy one last week and unfortunately none of the usual suppliers had
any in stock except the new central parts stocking location for Aerostar in
IL, Emory I couldn't believe the price they charged for one - $225.00.
But I think I've got an excellent fix that I will be testing that will cost
significantly less than $225.
I only wish the CJ check valves would cross to the 52 because I would buy
them from Doug Sapp in a heartbeat. The problem is the fittings on the
Russian check valves are male and the Chinese ones are female. Adding a
male to male fitting would seem like the logical solution. But then you run
into a space problem. ie: The additional space required for the Chinese
check valve with a male to male conversion fitting on each end would make it
virtually impossible for the original metal lines to fit properly. In some
cases it would be impossible. In particular, the check valve closest to the
main oil tank on the + (cross) fitting where the pop-off valve is located.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>
> Speaking of the check valve. The check valve on my fill port has a slow
> leak, are the balls the same as the ones in the uplocks ? If so who was
> offering the hard balls a while ago, and I am talking durons not anything
> else.
>
> Gus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:54 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> Air flows from high pressure to low, and there are spring loaded check
> valves throughout the filling systems that keep "equalized" pressure from
> ever really being equal. Even without them, no system fills the "empty"
> tank to a higher pressure than the supply (it's a physics thing) so it
> then
> starts flowing the other way.
>
> Your're right, you can't be too safe. That's why many people buy AVIATORS
> breathing oxygen instead of that nasty old welding oxygen (cynicism alert-
> if you're gullible stop reading now) which is full of water/oil/bugs/cat
> entrails.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <fish@aviation-tech.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
>>
>> Yaksters,
>>
>> I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect
>> to
>> your system. This is dangerous!
>>
>> Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there
>> tanks.
>> at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for
>> breathing
>> air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some
>> pressure
>> in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
>>
>> I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
>> thing
>> can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their tanks
>> to
>> yours, there system will become contaminated.
>>
>> I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier air
>> air
>> (compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
>> contaminated
>> air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
>> breating
>> air (compressed or Oxygen).
>>
>> Fly Safe
>> John fischer
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>>> >at
>> L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with
>> >him.
>>
>>>
>>>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>>> >the
>> mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety
>> >engineers
>> determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from
>> Scott
>> constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things
>> like
>> that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>>>
>>>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system,
>>> >Interspiro
>> perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with
>> the
>> existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many
>> years
>
>> ago.
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Richard Basiliere
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>>> >Universal
>> threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a
>> big
>> "event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to
>> fill
>> our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd
>> love
>> to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a
>> dime
>> a dozen.
>>>
>>> Respectfully, rick b
>>>
>>> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>>> >SCUBA
>>
>>> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>>> >in
>>
>>> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>>> >ways
>>
>>> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have
>>> >a
>>
>>> fire department on the field.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> >
>>> > Guys,
>>> >
>>> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>>> >which
>>
>>> > I
>>> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>>> >i.e.,
>>
>>> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>>> >used
>>
>>> > by
>>> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
>>> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>>> >wants
>> to
>>> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>>> >his.
>>
>>> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>>> >bars),
>>
>>> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years
>>> >already
>> and
>>> > it works perfectly.
>>> >
>>> > Hans
>>> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
>>> >
>>> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>>> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
>>> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
>>> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
>>> ><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>>> >
>>> > Gus,
>>> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
>>> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
>>> > Doc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> [Original Message]
>>> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
>>> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >>
>>> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>>> >changed.
>> I
>>> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>>> >regulator
>>
>>> > to
>>> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme
>>> >sport
>> in
>>> > the
>>> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
>>> > refill.
>>> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up
>>> >
>>
>>> >> little
>>> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
>>> >>
>>> >> Gus
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>>> >>
>>> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>>> >used
>>
>>> >> to
>>> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>>> >something:
>>
>>> >>
>>> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping
>>> >the
>> CJ
>>> > is
>>> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
>>> >>
>>> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
>>> > fitting
>>> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around
>>> >hasn't
>>
>>> >> been
>>> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far,
>>> >after
>>
>>> >> 1,200
>>> >> hours.
>>> >>
>>> >> Jon
>>> >>
>>> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
>>> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>>> >places
>>
>>> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>>> >schraeder
>>
>>> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does
>>> >the
>>
>>> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>>> >worth
>>
>>> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>>> >fitting
>>
>>> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting
>>> >to
>>
>>> >> > keeo
>>> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
>>> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To
>>> >make
>> it
>>> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you
>>> >will
>>
>>> >> > have no brakes!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Joe
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>>nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>t
> tp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Brian,
Only one minor correction with regards to the 52. On the 52 the main air
valve does not have to be opened to refill the pneumatic system from the
external air fill port.
As for using N2, I'm not going to go there again because this has been
cussed and discussed on numerous occasions over the years. I have my
personal experiences and so do you and many other people with regards to
filling a completely empty MAIN air system with N2 and then trying to start
the engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> H.Oortman wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "H.Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>
>> As I said, be carefull in doing this...the fire fighter and/or scuba dive
>> bottles maintain 300 or 200 bars of pressure. Our bottles will never
>> equalize with these ones...remember we only need 50 bars.....backflow
>> will
>> never occur...before that either the yak bottle has been blown to pieces
>> (and your Yak as well....) or the pressure valve has released...I hope
>> for
>> you the latter.....
>
> This isn't specifically addressed to Hans' comments but it seems as if
> there is a lot of confusion about filling the Yak/CJ air system from a
> higher-pressure system when, in reality, it is neither difficult nor
> dangerous.
>
> I used to fill my CJ6A from a 3000 psi (200 bar) SCUBA bottle. I have
> also filled it from a 2200 psi N2 bottle. It never was a problem. Here
> is how you do it.
>
> 1. Connect the HP source to the refill port on the Yak or CJ using the
> appropriate adapter.
>
> 2. Turn on the main air system valve.
>
> 3. Slowly crack the valve between the HP source and the aircraft's fill
> port.
>
> 4. When you hear air begin to flow leave the source valve alone.
>
> 5. Shut off the source valve when you hear the pop-off valve pop off.
>
> 6. Shut off the main air valve in the aircraft.
>
> 7. Bleed off any pressure in the line between the HP source and the
> aircraft. (There should be a bleed valve for this.)
>
> 8. Disconnect the lines and adapters (if any).
>
> If you have a second person you can monitor the amount of air added
> using the main system pressure gauge in the cockpit and shut off the
> source of air when you have achieved the desired pressure. You can do
> this yourself by adding a little air, stopping, checking the pressure,
> and then going back to add more air. The only extra cost here is time
> and a workout for your legs as you get up and down from the aircraft
> multiple times.
>
> Frankly, I never filled past about 30 Kg/cm
2. I would save the air in
> my SCUBA bottle so I could get more fills from it. Using it this way I
> could get about 4 fills from a 20 cu-ft "pony" bottle.
>
> Oh, and if you let the high pressure air flow in too quickly the pop-off
> valve will immediately let go even though very little air has been added
> to the system. This is sort of a fail-safe thing and lets you know you
> are flowing the HP air/N2 too quickly.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
Message 13
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
Dennis,
Thanks very much for that. I have not got into what it looks like yet but I
suspect that it will be the same as on the Sukhoi, same designer. It is
buried on the lower portion of the firewall and as with anything else in
these aircraft it will either be really easy or really hard, there is no
middle ground :))
Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
--> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Gus,
If the check valves in your airplane look like the ones in the 52, there are
no balls inside of it like the ones used on the shuttle valves for the gear
actuators. They have three components; a spring; bronze piston that is
square with rounded corners that has a hard rubber seal on the top; a disk
that the piston rubber seal presses against to seal it off.
I had to buy one last week and unfortunately none of the usual suppliers had
any in stock except the new central parts stocking location for Aerostar in
IL, Emory I couldn't believe the price they charged for one - $225.00.
But I think I've got an excellent fix that I will be testing that will cost
significantly less than $225.
I only wish the CJ check valves would cross to the 52 because I would buy
them from Doug Sapp in a heartbeat. The problem is the fittings on the
Russian check valves are male and the Chinese ones are female. Adding a
male to male fitting would seem like the logical solution. But then you run
into a space problem. ie: The additional space required for the Chinese
check valve with a male to male conversion fitting on each end would make it
virtually impossible for the original metal lines to fit properly. In some
cases it would be impossible. In particular, the check valve closest to the
main oil tank on the + (cross) fitting where the pop-off valve is located.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>
> Speaking of the check valve. The check valve on my fill port has a slow
> leak, are the balls the same as the ones in the uplocks ? If so who was
> offering the hard balls a while ago, and I am talking durons not anything
> else.
>
> Gus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:54 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> Air flows from high pressure to low, and there are spring loaded check
> valves throughout the filling systems that keep "equalized" pressure from
> ever really being equal. Even without them, no system fills the "empty"
> tank to a higher pressure than the supply (it's a physics thing) so it
> then
> starts flowing the other way.
>
> Your're right, you can't be too safe. That's why many people buy AVIATORS
> breathing oxygen instead of that nasty old welding oxygen (cynicism alert-
> if you're gullible stop reading now) which is full of water/oil/bugs/cat
> entrails.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <fish@aviation-tech.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
>>
>> Yaksters,
>>
>> I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect
>> to
>> your system. This is dangerous!
>>
>> Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there
>> tanks.
>> at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for
>> breathing
>> air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some
>> pressure
>> in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
>>
>> I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
>> thing
>> can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their tanks
>> to
>> yours, there system will become contaminated.
>>
>> I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier air
>> air
>> (compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
>> contaminated
>> air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
>> breating
>> air (compressed or Oxygen).
>>
>> Fly Safe
>> John fischer
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>>> >at
>> L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with
>> >him.
>>
>>>
>>>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>>> >the
>> mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety
>> >engineers
>> determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from
>> Scott
>> constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things
>> like
>> that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>>>
>>>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system,
>>> >Interspiro
>> perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with
>> the
>> existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many
>> years
>
>> ago.
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Richard Basiliere
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>>> >Universal
>> threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a
>> big
>> "event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to
>> fill
>> our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd
>> love
>> to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a
>> dime
>> a dozen.
>>>
>>> Respectfully, rick b
>>>
>>> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>>> >SCUBA
>>
>>> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>>> >in
>>
>>> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>>> >ways
>>
>>> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have
>>> >a
>>
>>> fire department on the field.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>
>>>
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>> >
>>> > Guys,
>>> >
>>> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>>> >which
>>
>>> > I
>>> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve
>>> >which
>>
>>> > goes
>>> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>>> >i.e.,
>>
>>> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>>> >used
>>
>>> > by
>>> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
>>> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>>> >wants
>> to
>>> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>>> >his.
>>
>>> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>>> >bars),
>>
>>> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years
>>> >already
>> and
>>> > it works perfectly.
>>> >
>>> > Hans
>>> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
>>> >
>>> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>>> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
>>> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
>>> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >
>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
>>> ><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>>> >
>>> > Gus,
>>> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
>>> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
>>> > Doc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> [Original Message]
>>> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
>>> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>> >>
>>> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>>> >changed.
>> I
>>> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>>> >regulator
>>
>>> > to
>>> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme
>>> >sport
>> in
>>> > the
>>> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
>>> > refill.
>>> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up
>>> >
>>
>>> >> little
>>> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
>>> >>
>>> >> Gus
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>> >>
>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>>> >>
>>> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>>> >used
>>
>>> >> to
>>> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>>> >something:
>>
>>> >>
>>> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping
>>> >the
>> CJ
>>> > is
>>> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
>>> >>
>>> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
>>> > fitting
>>> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around
>>> >hasn't
>>
>>> >> been
>>> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far,
>>> >after
>>
>>> >> 1,200
>>> >> hours.
>>> >>
>>> >> Jon
>>> >>
>>> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
>>> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>>> >places
>>
>>> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>>> >schraeder
>>
>>> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does
>>> >the
>>
>>> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>>> >worth
>>
>>> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>>> >fitting
>>
>>> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting
>>> >to
>>
>>> >> > keeo
>>> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
>>> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To
>>> >make
>> it
>>> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you
>>> >will
>>
>>> >> > have no brakes!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Joe
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>>nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>
t
> tp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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Anyone know Barry Hancocks website address.?
Joe
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Brian,
> Only one minor correction with regards to the 52. On the 52 the main
> air valve does not have to be opened to refill the pneumatic system from
> the external air fill port.
I thought that might be the case but couldn't remember for sure so I
decided to be play it safe.
> As for using N2, I'm not going to go there again because this has been
> cussed and discussed on numerous occasions over the years. I have my
> personal experiences and so do you and many other people with regards to
> filling a completely empty MAIN air system with N2 and then trying to
> start the engine.
I understand. I have filled the main air system with N2 from empty on
two different CJ6As (Huosai-powered) and both started just fine on N2. I
understand some due to timing of the air distributor on some engines N2
won't work.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "doug sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Joe,
The website showing Barry's freshly remanufactured CJ's is on my website,
CJ6.com
If you want CJ parts just click on the Parts Store.
I have a huge shipment due in in about two weeks and my portion of he site
will be vastly updated.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JOE HOWSE
Subject: Yak-List: Barry's Website
Anyone know Barry Hancocks website address.?
Joe
Message 17
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|
I don't have any burning desire to enter the fray about the tape issue, but
I would like to add my two cents to the issue but only to speak to the
proper/safe use of ANY sealant (tape, Form-a-Gasket, silicone, fuel
lube,etc.) used on ANY system (air, fuel or oil, etc). DO NOT apply ANY
sealing material to the first 2-3 threads of the male fitting to be sealed.
If you use this as absolute law you and your fuel and air system will live
long and prosper.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron Davis
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 6:16 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
Teflon tape is an emotional subject in airplanes. Some people think it's
about as appropriate as highheels are, others use it all the time. Most
people just confuse the matter. Walt, for example, says below that the seal
is made by the metal to metal flare. Yes it is, and what a dumb place to
try to put teflon tape (on a flared fitting). Taper pipe threads (NPT)
benefit from teflon tape and that's what it's made for. The tape I use has
a Mil-Spec and I therefore assume the military uses it for something other
than drinking water pipes.
It also is beneficial for pneumatic instrument fittings, as is silicone
tape which is where this thread started.
Silicone tape has lots of uses in airplanes. To answer the original
question: If you were thinking of using if for instrument airlines it will
probably work well. If you were thinking of using it for the high pressure
air fittings, it's unlikely it will help. It won't hurt anything though, so
give it a try if you want.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
To: 'yak-list@matronics.com'
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
That said..... and I agree with the fact that you should not use
it...... it is very common in the military to use teflon tape as an
emergency fix if you have the flare leaking slightly. The tape is placed
BEHIND the flare and as the nut is screwed tight, it seals it. I am not
ENDORSING this as a "fix". It is one of those "use at your own risk"
recommendations, but done properly, it will not get into the system and it
will in fact seal a connector even at 3000 psi. Where I have seen it used
is just as a "one time only to get it home" fix.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon [mailto:wlannon@cablerocket.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:21 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
The use of teflon plumbing tape is verbotten in aircraft hydraulic
systems, pneumatic systems are no different in this regard.
In any case the seal is made by the flare (or flareless type) metal to
metal joint not the fitting threads. The correct thread lubricant is Parker
Seallube or Threadlube.
A small piece of plumbing tape in a close tolerance hydraulic or
pneumatic valve can not only cause a leak but can also cause a valve
seizure.
Walt
riginal Message -----
From: cgalley
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
You are talking about the white Teflon tape I presume. I won't let
any of that stuff near an airplane. It creates real problems on even low
pressure systems.
Your gas grill uses very low pressure. Probably measured in inches
of water. Takes almost 28 inches of water to have a psi of just one pound.
When you talk 50 atm, multiply by 14.7 or 735 psi. I'll bet the system is
designed for metal to metal seals due to the extremely pressure. No sealers
wanted or necessary.
The "tape" even if it seals a connection will cause leaks as any
little bit caught in a valve might cause it to leak. Your system needs to
be free of foreign contaminates. Teflon tape is a foreign contaminate.
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: John E. Lansden
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:20 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
Am thinking of using the "silicone tape" to seal all my air system
connections. It seems to work great on my gas grill connection and other
applications where a good seal is necessary. Anyone see any problem with
using it in this application?
Jim Lankford
Message 18
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Brian,
That is most likely the case with the standard M14P which has M9F fixed
timing magnetos that are timed at 14-16 degrees before TDC. On the Housai
(if I'm not mistaken) and just like the M14PF, both have centrifugal advance
mags and are timed after TDC, depending on the number stamped in the boss of
the magneto under the cover.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
>> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>>
>> Brian,
>> Only one minor correction with regards to the 52. On the 52 the main
>> air valve does not have to be opened to refill the pneumatic system from
>> the external air fill port.
>
> I thought that might be the case but couldn't remember for sure so I
> decided to be play it safe.
>
>> As for using N2, I'm not going to go there again because this has been
>> cussed and discussed on numerous occasions over the years. I have my
>> personal experiences and so do you and many other people with regards to
>> filling a completely empty MAIN air system with N2 and then trying to
>> start the engine.
>
> I understand. I have filled the main air system with N2 from empty on
> two different CJ6As (Huosai-powered) and both started just fine on N2. I
> understand some due to timing of the air distributor on some engines N2
> won't work.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
Message 19
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I am not trying to be argumentative with anyone, but possibly I was
misunderstood. To wit: Putting Teflon tape on a flare is not dumb
necessarily... it is a matter of where on the flare you PUT it. Of course
you do not put it on the FRONT of the flare!
Ok, well... I guess I might as well publish it.
Take the 37 degree flared tube assembly apart, meaning:
You pull the "B" nut back, you then pull the SLEEVE back, which exposes the
REAR of the 37 degree flare.
You put ONE TURN of Teflon tape on the back of the flare.
You pull the sleeve back down on TOP of the Teflon.
You align the connector with it's mate, and then screw down the B nut
carefully.
If you have a small crack at the base of the flare, etc., etc., this fix is
going to work. You have some huge monster crack, and it is not going to
work. You mileage many vary.
This is not a permanent fix, and to some, it may represent no fix at all.
Each and every reader is entitled to their own choice. This procedure
works perfectly on 3000 psi hydraulic lines and 2800 psi nitrogen lines, and
it stands to reason it will also work quite well on 735 PSI compressed air
lines.
As I said, it is an emergency fix....... treat it accordingly.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
EA-6B Prowler Field Engineering
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Davis [mailto:L39parts@hotmail.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
Teflon tape is an emotional subject in airplanes. Some people think it's
about as appropriate as highheels are, others use it all the time. Most
people just confuse the matter. Walt, for example, says below that the seal
is made by the metal to metal flare. Yes it is, and what a dumb place to
try to put teflon tape (on a flared fitting). Taper pipe threads (NPT)
benefit from teflon tape and that's what it's made for. The tape I use has
a Mil-Spec and I therefore assume the military uses it for something other
than drinking water pipes.
It also is beneficial for pneumatic instrument fittings, as is silicone tape
which is where this thread started.
Silicone tape has lots of uses in airplanes. To answer the original
question: If you were thinking of using if for instrument airlines it will
probably work well. If you were thinking of using it for the high pressure
air fittings, it's unlikely it will help. It won't hurt anything though, so
give it a try if you want.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <mailto:BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
That said..... and I agree with the fact that you should not use it...... it
is very common in the military to use teflon tape as an emergency fix if you
have the flare leaking slightly. The tape is placed BEHIND the flare and
as the nut is screwed tight, it seals it. I am not ENDORSING this as a
"fix". It is one of those "use at your own risk" recommendations, but done
properly, it will not get into the system and it will in fact seal a
connector even at 3000 psi. Where I have seen it used is just as a "one
time only to get it home" fix.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon [mailto:wlannon@cablerocket.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
The use of teflon plumbing tape is verbotten in aircraft hydraulic systems,
pneumatic systems are no different in this regard.
In any case the seal is made by the flare (or flareless type) metal to metal
joint not the fitting threads. The correct thread lubricant is Parker
Seallube or Threadlube.
A small piece of plumbing tape in a close tolerance hydraulic or pneumatic
valve can not only cause a leak but can also cause a valve seizure.
Walt
riginal Message -----
From: cgalley <mailto:cgalley@qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
You are talking about the white Teflon tape I presume. I won't let any of
that stuff near an airplane. It creates real problems on even low pressure
systems.
Your gas grill uses very low pressure. Probably measured in inches of water.
Takes almost 28 inches of water to have a psi of just one pound. When you
talk 50 atm, multiply by 14.7 or 735 psi. I'll bet the system is designed
for metal to metal seals due to the extremely pressure. No sealers wanted or
necessary.
The "tape" even if it seals a connection will cause leaks as any little bit
caught in a valve might cause it to leak. Your system needs to be free of
foreign contaminates. Teflon tape is a foreign contaminate.
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: John E. Lansden <mailto:johnlans@intergate.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Silicone Tape
Am thinking of using the "silicone tape" to seal all my air system
connections. It seems to work great on my gas grill connection and other
applications where a good seal is necessary. Anyone see any problem with
using it in this application?
Jim Lankford
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: check lists, forced landings, and pilots |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Ron,
I'm with you on taking the human out of the cockpit. I suspect we will learn the
same lesson we learned with the gun. On the otherhand, I have seen the future...and
it is closer than we give credit. The issues that Burt Rutan spoke of
are past in many ways.
No, I personally do not want to fly a pilot-less airliner.
The day is coming... we already have commuter train lines and airport shuttles
that are remotely controlled.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Davis <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 10, 2006 8:43 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>Roger,
>
>I don't doubt what you say, but in fighters it doesn't matter much what the
>crash rate is. When they fall out of the sky, they tend to fall on people
>we want to kill anyway in places where we won't be sued for damages. How do
>you feel about the prospects for pilot-less airliners? Are you looking
>forward to riding in them?
>
>I don't have the statistics, so I'll quote someone who has a lot of data and
>knows far more about it than I do: Burt Rutan. He said that if the U-2 had
>the casualty rate of the Global Hawk drone, the Air Force/CIA would have
>used them all up, had to rebuild the factory and make a second production
>equal to the first, and they would all be used up by now. He made this
>comment at Oskosh a few years ago.
>
>86 U-2s were built and 35 of the 50s/60s production are still in service,
>largely because each has pilot that really wants go be at home when the
>mission is over. I've never come across a silicon-base unit that cared one
>way or the other.
>
>When did the US replace this obsolete old fashion pilot-operated aircraft
>that first flew in 1955? It's only an estimate, but currently it's slated
>to be completely replaced by Global Hawk in 2011... if they can get the
>production rate to exceed the crash rate.
>
>Where would be now without slicone-based high speed digital computers? A
>better question might be where would be if we had a couple of Kelly
>Johnson's at work in a couple of Skunk Works.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:36 PM
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Ron,
>> That concept is closer than you think. It is said in my community that we
>> are seeing the last manned fighters. This is the last generation of
>> fighter pilots.
>> It is not very far off at all!
>> A chilling thought but true none the less.
>> By the way, the causalty rates for drones is less than that of the carbon
>> units. Unless you are a raghead carrying a mortor tube though the date
>> grove near Fallusia. Damned amazing what a Hell fire launched from a
>> lurking predator will do to ruin an ambush! Not that I'm for taking the
>> human out of the cockpit. I'm not! But it will soon be a fact of life as
>> we know it.
>> Sad but true, the carbon units will be coming out of the cockpits to be
>> replaced by silicon waffers.
>> I can see the swagger at the causual bar on Friday night.. "Hi, I'm R2D2
>> cuttie... does your silicon go all the way to your really nice waffers?
>> ...wanta play with my pigtail and jiggle my antennae?"
>> Dogmatic Viperdoc
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Ron Davis <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>>Sent: Jan 9, 2006 1:51 PM
>>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
>>>
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>If there wasn't a need for thinking, there wouldn't be a need for a human
>>>at
>>>the controls. You could just program a computer with the "always" and
>>>"never" rules and send it off with a load of paying passengers. Look up
>>>the
>>>casualty rates for drones if you can't visualize how well this would work
>>>on
>>>your own.
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:39 AM
>>>Subject: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>>>>
>>>> I felt that my exchange with Roger was starting to get a bit acrimonious
>>>> so I quit without saying some of the things I wanted to say. (I guess I
>>>> must be getting old.) Pappy then popped up and made a number of my major
>>>> points for me. I am glad to see I am not thinking these things by
>>>> myself.
>>>>
>>>> I am not knocking emergency checklists. Heck, when everything is going
>>>> to hell in a hand basket and you are in real fear of dying, your brain
>>>> is not going to work too well. Having those emergency checklists burned
>>>> into your brain so you *do* something is a wonderful thing. Even if your
>>>> brain never comes back on-line there is a good chance that your
>>>> emergency check list will have accomplished something positive. It might
>>>> even save your life or save your airplane. This is A Very Good Thing.
>>>>
>>>> But the checklist is no substitute for real thought as Pappy pointed
>>>> out. If you are thinking you probably have time to try a couple of
>>>> things that might not be in the checklist. This is especially true of
>>>> things like electrical and pneumatic problems in our airplanes. And it
>>>> is still true of a forced landing with a seized engine as you have to
>>>> select and evaluate a landing spot. It is amazing just how much time
>>>> only a little time is.
>>>>
>>>> And any time you can make a decision ahead of time you are better off as
>>>> well. It takes time to make a decision and sometimes you do not have
>>>> that time. Engine failure in the pattern is a perfect example. If you
>>>> figure out from where in the pattern you can make it back to the runway
>>>> and then adhere to that decision you will be able to act more quickly in
>>>> the case where the fan stops turning. You can probably even figure out
>>>> where your emergency landing sites are going to be in the neighborhood
>>>> of your home field and then decide ahead of time whether each will be a
>>>> gear-up or gear-down site.
>>>>
>>>> Roger, I apologize for apparently baiting you. I tend to do that,
>>>> especially when I perceive someone being dogmatic. For those of you who
>>>> have been around since the beginning, you remember how I used to bait
>>>> Mike McCoy. The reason I did it was because Mike was dogmatic and
>>>> inflexible. Everything was "by the book" with no apparent room for
>>>> thought and evaluation. Don't get me wrong; I thought Mike was a very
>>>> good pilot and instructor and his departure from the Yak/CJ community is
>>>> a loss to all of us. But he would get in these rigid though patterns
>>>> that would prevent him from even trying to analyze whether what he
>>>> "knew" was right. That was when I would "beat him up" on some topic to
>>>> try to get his attention and get him thinking about different
>>>> approaches. (<sigh> It didn't work and I get awshit points for not
>>>> figuring out a better way of dealing with him. Mea Culpa.)
>>>>
>>>> My experience is such that, Any time someone says to you the words
>>>> "always" or "never" with regard to doing something in an airplane, they
>>>> are almost always wrong. There will always (ha, I just did it myself) be
>>>> an exception and only your brain will tell you when you need to exercise
>>>> that exception. Our brains have oversized frontal lobes for a reason.
>>>> Regardless of whether you think they are a gift of God or a lucky
>>>> survival trait, use them.
>>>>
>>>> And please remember something else: we are all here because we love
>>>> flying.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>>>> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>>>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>>>
>>>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>>>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Barry's Website |
In a message dated 1/10/06 8:24:14 AM, joeh@shaw.ca writes:
> Anyone know Barry Hancocks website address.?
>
www.cj6.com
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Silicone Tape |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Edwin Curry" <eacurry@ev1.net>
I know of a product made by Swagelok that we have had great success at our business
to assemble high pressure hydraulic piping (#3000) with out galling the threads.
There has been almost no test leaks found during testing. We switched
from another product that just did not do a good job. The only drawback that I
know is, it is not approved for any potable water applications.
Company info is:
Swagelok
29500 Solon Road
Solon, Ohio 44139-3492
Part# MS-PTS-250
Product name "SWAK"
I believe this will do a good job for you. I buy it locally from a distributer
in the Houston area in tubes of 8.45 oz.
Good Luck
Edwin
Yak-52
N108GC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2605#2605
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Silicone Tape |
Hello Everyone,
Not to derail the thread but I had to flare one of my air lines a few
years back. Although I don't have my notes with me now, I seem to
remember the flare being 45 degrees not 37 degrees. I had to go to
the hardware store and get a plumber's flare instead of using my auto
flare tool. Can anyone confirm or deny the angle?
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Silicone Tape |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "doug sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Edwin, is this product hard setting or will it remain soft so that the
fitting can be easily removed without the aid of pipe wrenches and a swede?
A hard setting compound may do a great job in sealing but you will end up
hating yourself the day you have to remove the fitting for service. This is
the main reason why I recommend non hardening aviation grade permatex. I
wonder if the SWAK has the same characteristics.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Edwin Curry
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Silicone Tape
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Edwin Curry" <eacurry@ev1.net>
I know of a product made by Swagelok that we have had great success at our
business to assemble high pressure hydraulic piping (#3000) with out galling
the threads. There has been almost no test leaks found during testing. We
switched from another product that just did not do a good job. The only
drawback that I know is, it is not approved for any potable water
applications.
Company info is:
Swagelok
29500 Solon Road
Solon, Ohio 44139-3492
Part# MS-PTS-250
Product name "SWAK"
I believe this will do a good job for you. I buy it locally from a
distributer in the Houston area in tubes of 8.45 oz.
Good Luck
Edwin
Yak-52
N108GC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2605#2605
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Silicone Tape |
The angle of every flare that I have found on my 50 is the exact same flare
angle as American aircraft. This also holds true for the YAK-52 that we put
American made pipe on, with standard flares.... but used the original metric
B nuts with. You do have to drill the B Nuts out about a thousandth or so
to accommodate the slightly larger diameter of U.S. tubing... we used steel
by the way instead of Aluminum. The flare is 37 not 45.. and is a standard
aircraft flare angle.
On the other hand, I am not sure what the flare angle is on automobiles.
:-=)
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: D.E.Robertson [mailto:dougr@yak-18t.com]
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Re: Silicone Tape
Hello Everyone,
Not to derail the thread but I had to flare one of my air lines a few years
back. Although I don't have my notes with me now, I seem to remember the
flare being 45 degrees not 37 degrees. I had to go to the hardware store
and get a plumber's flare instead of using my auto flare tool. Can anyone
confirm or deny the angle?
Message 26
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| Subject: | NWOC Engine panel |
Yaksters,
There will be an "engines" panel discussion at the National Warbird Operators
Conference this year. If anyone would like to represent the Yak community
(and is knowledgeable about the CJ and Yak engines), please contact me off-list
for details.
NWOC is being held in Orlando, FL this year, February 23-26.
Regards,
Mike
Message 27
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Test [Rolling Eyes] Test
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2677#2677
Message 28
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
test
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2679#2679
Message 29
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
test
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2680#2680
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Silicone Tape |
The Flare on U.S. Automobiles is 45 Degrees... Gary
-------------- Original message from Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>:
--------------
The angle of every flare that I have found on my 50 is the exact same flare angle
as American aircraft. This also holds true for the YAK-52 that we put American
made pipe on, with standard flares.... but used the original metric B nuts
with. You do have to drill the B Nuts out about a thousandth or so to accommodate
the slightly larger diameter of U.S. tubing... we used steel by the way
instead of Aluminum. The flare is 37 not 45.. and is a standard aircraft flare
angle.
On the other hand, I am not sure what the flare angle is on automobiles. :-=)
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: D.E.Robertson [mailto:dougr@yak-18t.com]
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Re: Silicone Tape
Hello Everyone,
Not to derail the thread but I had to flare one of my air lines a few years back.
Although I don't have my notes with me now, I seem to remember the flare being
45 degrees not 37 degrees. I had to go to the hardware store and get a plumber's
flare instead of using my auto flare tool. Can anyone confirm or deny
the angle?
<!-- BEGIN WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
<!-- WEBMAIL STATIONERY noneset -->
The Flare on U.S. Automobiles is 45 Degrees... Gary
-------------- Original message from Bitterlich GS11 Mark G BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil:
--------------
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=GENERATOR>
The angle of every flare that I have found on my 50 is the exact same flare angle
as American aircraft. This also holds true for the YAK-52 that we put American
made pipe on, with standard flares.... but used the original metric B nuts
with. You do have to drill the B Nuts out about a thousandth or so to accommodate
the slightly larger diameter ofU.S. tubing... we used steel by the way instead
of Aluminum. The flare is 37 not 45.. and is a standard aircraft flare angle.
On the other hand, I am not sure what the flare angle is on automobiles. :-=)
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: D.E.Robertson [mailto:dougr@yak-18t.com]
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Re: Silicone Tape
Hello Everyone,
Not to derail the thread but I had to flare one of myair lines a few years back.
Although I don't have mynotes with me now, I seem to remember the flare being45
degrees not 37 degrees. I had to go to thehardware store and get a plumber's
flare instead ofusing my auto flare tool. Can anyone confirm or denythe angle?
<!-- END WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
Message 31
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Not sure where I got this from but.........................
Round Engines .
Dedicated to all who flew behind round engines...
We gotta get rid of these turbines, they are ruining aviation.
We need to go back to big round engines.
Anybody can start a turbine, you just need to move a switch from "OFF" to
"START", and then remember to move it back to "ON" after a while.
My PC is harder to start.
Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. On some planes,
the pilots aren't even allowed to do it.
Turbines start by whining for a while, then they give a small lady-like poot
and start whining louder.
Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more
rattles, another BANG, or two, more clicks, a lot of smoke and finally a
serious low pitched roar. We like that. It's a guy thing.
When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate
on the flight ahead.
Starting a turbine is like flicking on a ceiling fan: Useful, but hardly
exciting.
Turbines don't break often enough, leading to aircrew boredom, complacency
and inattention. A round engine, at speed, looks and sounds like it's going
to blow at any minute. This helps concentrate the mind.
Turbines don't have enough control levers to keep a pilot's attention.
There's nothing to fiddle with during long flights.
Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman lanterns. Round engined
planes smell like God intended flying machines to smell.
Message 32
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Brian,
> That is most likely the case with the standard M14P which has M9F fixed
> timing magnetos that are timed at 14-16 degrees before TDC. On the
> Housai (if I'm not mistaken) and just like the M14PF, both have
> centrifugal advance mags and are timed after TDC, depending on the
> number stamped in the boss of the magneto under the cover.
It thought that the centrifugal-advance mag was set to about 2 degrees BTDC.
But be that as it may, that is a mag timing issue and that doesn't have
any effect so long as the spark timing is not so retarded as to fire
after the air distributor injects air into that cylinder.
The trick is that if the spark doesn't fire the cylinder the crank
rotates a bit more before the air is injected to turn the engine. If the
air is injected at or before the spark fires the cylinder it either
leans the mixture (air in the system) or eliminates the oxygen in the
cylinder (N2 in the system). If air is injected too early you can
compensate by overpriming the engine to deal with the extra air in the
cylinder. If you inject N2, no amount of fuel will solve the problem as
the N2 dilutes the O2 in the mixture until it won't support combustion.
So the problem really is an air distributor timing problem. If you
retard the air injection your engine will start just fine with N2 in the
pneumatic system.
In any case, that is how I see the system working. If I am wrong I would
love to know why. The nice thing about engines is that, if the timing is
right and they have a proper fuel/air mixture, they will run.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 33
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| Subject: | POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Yakkers;
I'm asking WHY should some of us be "Grandfathered" into no flight
restrictions for Experimental Exhibition registered aircraft
(pre-moratorium) and others with the exact same plane be limited with FAA
restrictions like the no flight past a 300 mile limit rule? What the hell
were these pointy headed FAA bureaucrats thinking? Where do they get off
letting some have all the freedoms they want while restricting others? It
seems like an unacceptable and unequal application of the law. I seem to
remember somewhere that all laws have to be equally administered or they are
unconstitutional. And why put that restriction on us anyways? What pointy
headed bureaucrat thought of that one and why? I suggest we, as RPA members,
use our clout to get rid of this unconstitutional and bullshit set of
regulations!
Frank
"All proficiency/practice flights shall be conducted within the geographical
area described in the applicant's program letter and any amendments to that
letter, but that area will not exceed 300 nautical miles of the aircraft's
home base airport. An exception is permitted for proficiency flying outside
of the area stated above for organized formation flying, training, or
checkout in conjunction with a specific event listed in the applicant's
program letter (or amendments). The program letter should indicate the
location and dates for this proficiency flying."
OOOHHHH............But if you're "grandfathered" and one of the "special
ones" you don't have to do this even though you own the exact same airplane.
What a crock of shit these bureaucrats have done to us! What the hell gives
them the right to unilaterally declare the exact same planes different? F'in
bastards!
Message 34
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Except from Frank's email,
Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman lanterns. Round engined planes
smell like God intended flying machines to smell.
Ahhh, but you gotta love the smell of JP-4 as it lingers over the Ramp on a Crisp
morning with the sun rising in the east! Also got to agree, Ain't no sound
like a round with that vibration in your feet on the rudder pedals and the birds
do smell like military airplanes! Life is good flying these airplanes...CJ,
52, or 50's!
Dogmatic Viperdoc
Message 35
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| Subject: | Insurance Survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52@verizon.net>
Fellow Yak and CJ pilots: I've created a Yak/CJ insurance survey which I thought
might be interesting. It is anonymous and it only asks a few questions so
it isn't scientific by any stretch of the imagination.
Take the survey at the following link:
See the graphed results here:
See the text results here:
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2717#2717
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52@verizon.net>
I didn't realize the results would be split the way they are. There is no way
to connect the "graphed" results with the "text" results. Sorry about that -
especially to the folks who have already take the survey.
I'll create another survey that will include everything in text format.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2729#2729
Message 37
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
As you say, all oxygen comes from the same lox bottle. But you will find
many people believe otherwise.
Why do you say welding oxygen has to be more pure? I'd guess that well over
90% of "welding oxygen" is used for cutting, where the quality hardly
matters. Most of the rest would be used for brazing, and a small amount for
gas welding.
----- Original Message -----
From: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Ron, Your statement about welding oxygen might have been tongue in cheek
> but the facts are Welding oxygen has to be the most pure of the three
> common specs. Aviators breathing is next followed by I believe. medical.
> In reality ALL oxygen at this time is fractionally distilled from liquid
> air. We are talking temps over 100 BELOW zero. Not possible for any
> water to be in any of the three, so that when used for medicinal purposes,
> it is sometime bubbled thru a water bath for the patient. So you can fill
> your supplemental oxygen from any of these three but cheapest is the same
> as the most expensive. Welding oxygen works fine but if Medicare is
> paying, get it from the medical house.
>
> Cy Galley
> EAA Safety Programs Editor
> Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Air flows from high pressure to low, and there are spring loaded check
>> valves throughout the filling systems that keep "equalized" pressure from
>> ever really being equal. Even without them, no system fills the "empty"
>> tank to a higher pressure than the supply (it's a physics thing) so it
>> then starts flowing the other way.
>>
>> Your're right, you can't be too safe. That's why many people buy
>> AVIATORS breathing oxygen instead of that nasty old welding oxygen
>> (cynicism alert- if you're gullible stop reading now) which is full of
>> water/oil/bugs/cat entrails.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <fish@aviation-tech.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>
>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
>>>
>>> Yaksters,
>>>
>>> I can not beleive that a fire dept, will allow there cylinder to connect
>>> to
>>> your system. This is dangerous!
>>>
>>> Once the pressure equilizes, the air can possably backflow into there
>>> tanks.
>>> at this point there tanks are contaminated, and cannot be used for
>>> breathing
>>> air until they are checked and cleaned. That is why you leave some
>>> pressure
>>> in cylinders to keep them from becoming contaminated.
>>>
>>> I would also have some concern about filling tanks at a shop as the same
>>> thing
>>> can happen to their systems. Once the pressure equilizes form their
>>> tanks to
>>> yours, there system will become contaminated.
>>>
>>> I have heard to many stories about divers who had problems with thier
>>> air air
>>> (compressors need to be maintained also), which sometimes leads to
>>> contaminated
>>> air. That I would be rather error on the side of safety when it comes to
>>> breating
>>> air (compressed or Oxygen).
>>>
>>> Fly Safe
>>> John fischer
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>SCUBA to commie airplane adapters can be ordered from my former partner
>>>> >at
>>> L39ZAparts@hotmail.com unless the Kazakistan warrants caught up with
>>> >him.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I defer to your experience, which is probably more recent than mine. In
>>>> >the
>>> mining industry, NIOSH allows only certified systems. Our safety
>>> >engineers
>>> determined that using a part (cylinder) from MSA on a >regulator from
>>> Scott
>>> constituted an uncertified "system". They were >fanatics about things
>>> like
>>> that, not like FAA un-approved parts regs.
>>>>
>>>>At another job, we changed from Scott to a German-built system,
>>>> >Interspiro
>>> perhaps. My recollection is that those fittings were >incompatible with
>>> the
>>> existing filling fittings, but I wouldn't swear to >it. It was many
>>> years ago.
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Richard Basiliere
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> FYI on the firefighter SCBA fittings. They are "all" standard GCA
>>>> >Universal
>>> threaded fittings. Survivair, Scott, MSA, all the same. If >we have a
>>> big
>>> "event" multiple agencies will be "invited" and we need to >be able to
>>> fill
>>> our bottles from other Fire Dept compressors or cascade >systems. I'd
>>> love
>>> to have the SCBA adapter to Russian airplane - the >SCBA bottles are a
>>> dime
>>> a dozen.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully, rick b
>>>>
>>>> >>> L39parts@hotmail.com 1/8/2006 8:05:27 AM >>>
>>>>
>>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> In the US, firemen's SCBA bottle fittings vary with the manufacturer.
>>>> >SCUBA
>>>
>>>> diving bottles use a standard fitting, but there are a lot of airports
>>>> >in
>>>
>>>> the US that are a long ways from the ocean and quite possibly a long
>>>> >ways
>>>
>>>> from a dive shop. Another problem is that most US airports don't have
>>>> >a
>>>
>>>> fire department on the field.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
>>>> >
>>>> > Guys,
>>>> >
>>>> > The only thing we carry around during a trip in our Yak52 is a hose,
>>>> >which
>>>
>>>> > I
>>>> > had made especially for this purpose, with on one side an adapter
>>>> >which
>>>
>>>> > goes
>>>> > on the plane and on the other side an adapter with release valve
>>>> >which
>>>
>>>> > goes
>>>> > on a scuba dive bottle. In Europe this is a standardized connector,
>>>> >i.e.,
>>>
>>>> > these scuba dive bottles have the same connector as all air bottles
>>>> >used
>>>
>>>> > by
>>>> > the fire brigades at airfields/airports and what have you.
>>>> > There is always a nice fire fighter at an airport or airfield who
>>>> >wants
>>> to
>>>> > give you a hand to charge your air bottle in the plane with one of
>>>> >his.
>>>
>>>> > Be aware though: these bottles have 200 bars (and nowadays even 300
>>>> >bars),
>>>
>>>> > so open them very slowly. We are using this method since years
>>>> >already
>>> and
>>>> > it works perfectly.
>>>> >
>>>> > Hans
>>>> > Yak52 pilot from Holland
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>>>> > Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Doc Kemp
>>>> > Verzonden: dinsdag 3 januari 2006 20:17
>>>> > Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> > Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>> >
>>>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Doc Kemp"
>>>> ><viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Gus,
>>>> > Send me pictures of your tank. I am using a pony tank for backup.
>>>> > viperdoc@mindspring.com
>>>> > Doc
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> [Original Message]
>>>> >> From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>> >> Date: 1/3/2006 8:04:12 AM
>>>> >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I used to carry the adapter around with me but recently I have
>>>> >changed.
>>> I
>>>> >> now carry a paintball gun tank. It is a 4500 pound tank with a
>>>> >regulator
>>>
>>>> > to
>>>> >> 800psi on the output. Paintball is the fastest growing extreme
>>>> >sport
>>> in
>>>> > the
>>>> >> US and shops for this are popping up all over the place if I need a
>>>> > refill.
>>>> >> The tank is about a foot long and about 4 inches around so takes up
>>>> >
>>>
>>>> >> little
>>>> >> space. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Gus
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>>>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:07 PM
>>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I have a SCUBA to "red star" hose that flies with my airplane... I
>>>> >used
>>>
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> be concerned about running out of air but then I discovered
>>>> >something:
>>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> When primed up good, when the weather is above 40F, hand-propping
>>>> >the
>>> CJ
>>>> > is
>>>> >> really quite easy. It WANTS to start.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Once you get over any trepidation about hand propping it, the SCUBA
>>>> > fitting
>>>> >> is really the backup to the backup. Carrying extra air around
>>>> >hasn't
>>>
>>>> >> been
>>>> >> something that would have "saved the day", at lease at so far,
>>>> >after
>>>
>>>> >> 1,200
>>>> >> hours.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Jon
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > I have a standard type SCUBA bottle in my hangar and I carry the
>>>> >> > SCUBA fitting with on a cross country for emergency. Not many
>>>> >places
>>>
>>>> >> > you cannot borrow or rent a SCUBA bottle for an emergency. A
>>>> >schraeder
>>>
>>>> >> > fitting is not necessary as the check valve in the system does
>>>> >the
>>>
>>>> >> > same, the small amount of loss when you unhook the botle is not
>>>> >worth
>>>
>>>> >> > the trouble. I tapped the fuselage fitting for AN816- 4 pipe
>>>> >fitting
>>>
>>>> >> > and use matching fitting on the SCUBA hose then cap the fitting
>>>> >to
>>>
>>>> >> > keeo
>>>> >> the dirt out with AN929-4 cap.
>>>> >> > However as Craig says hand propping is not that difficult. To
>>>> >make
>>> it
>>>> >> > safer I bleed off all the air then chock the airplane as you
>>>> >will
>>>
>>>> >> > have no brakes!
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Joe
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listh>ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Survey |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52@verizon.net>
Okay. Here are the new links to the insurance survey. Again I apologize.
Survey:
http://www.opinionpower.com/Surveys/399033648.html
Results:
http://www.opinionpower.com/textResults.cgi?id=399033648
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2737#2737
Message 39
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In a message dated 1/10/2006 6:08:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rvfltd@televar.com writes:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "doug sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
>
> Edwin, is this product hard setting or will it remain soft so that the
> fitting can be easily removed without the aid of pipe wrenches and a swede?
> A hard setting compound may do a great job in sealing but you will end up
> hating yourself the day you have to remove the fitting for service. This is
> the main reason why I recommend non hardening aviation grade permatex. I
> wonder if the SWAK has the same characteristics.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
Doug,
I'm sitting with the SWAK product sheet in hand and it says;
"SWAK anaerobic pipe thread sealant with TFE provides reliable sealing on
threaded metal pipe and fittings. It also acts as a lubricant during assembly,
preventing galling or seizing of threads. SWAK is applied in a semi-liquid
state. When threaded components are assembled, it is deprived of air and
hardens, or cures, to form a reliable seal. If it is necessary to break the
connection, SWAK allows low break-away torque even when fully cured."
Temperature range is -65F to +350F Air, Aviation Gasoline, and
Lubricating Oil are specifically listed as compatible fluids.
Like all Swagelok products, you pay a little more and get the best. We use
their tubing, fittings, valves and hose (all available in metric sizes)
exclusively at our facilities. Our operations are an accelerated life cycle test
for
these components. The main prime movers are 160,000 horsepower gas turbines
(think big turboprop) running 24/7 at 3,600 RPM. Each accumulates about 8,500
hours running time between annual inspections, with a major overhaul around
the 40,000 hour mark. And for you airline types, at rated power these engines
burn about 100,000 pounds of fuel per hour!
Rich Desmond
CJ-6A
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: check lists, forced landings, and pilots |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Pilotless trains don't concern me much because trains only travel in one
dimension. If things go poorly, interupting the power will cause it to come
to a rest in a more or less desirable fashion.
Driverless cars and buses concern me more because they travel in two
dimensions and therefore have a lot more potential for running into
something firm.
Planes concern me far more because you can't just cut the power and wait for
them to roll to a stop. The very hardest part of a flight is the landing
and it always comes last. I'm not too crazy about fly-by-wire on airliners,
but so far the plastic parts breaking off have caused more crashes than the
software. I guess that's a success of sorts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: check lists, forced landings, and pilots
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Ron,
> I'm with you on taking the human out of the cockpit. I suspect we will
> learn the same lesson we learned with the gun. On the otherhand, I have
> seen the future...and it is closer than we give credit. The issues that
> Burt Rutan spoke of are past in many ways.
> No, I personally do not want to fly a pilot-less airliner.
> The day is coming... we already have commuter train lines and airport
> shuttles that are remotely controlled.
> Doc
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen quality (was: Air bottles) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
I've never flown from USVI to Florida. Are there a lot of mountains on
that route?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Oxygen quality (was: Air bottles)
>
> BTW, I used to fill my O2 bottle in the USVI for $11 at the local
> welding supply place. I used it almost every trip to and from the US as
> I would typically operate at 15,000-18,000 feet.
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
It's easy to make rules that apply to activities in the future and
considerably harder, legally and public relations wise, to take away
something that has already been granted. That's why yesterday's rules apply
to yesterday's airplanes and today's rules apply to airplanes certified
today and henceforth.
The rules on certifying a plane include the operating limits that will apply
to the plane. The rules on certifying a plane have nothing to do with
planes that already have an airworthiness certificate. Could you quote a
particular chapter and verse of the constitution that you think this
violates?
Besides that, you can go anywhere you want if you put it on your program
letter or fax the FSDO.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein"
> <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Yakkers;
> I'm asking WHY should some of us be "Grandfathered" into no flight
> restrictions for Experimental Exhibition registered aircraft
> (pre-moratorium) and others with the exact same plane be limited with FAA
> restrictions like the no flight past a 300 mile limit rule? What the hell
> were these pointy headed FAA bureaucrats thinking? Where do they get off
> letting some have all the freedoms they want while restricting others? It
> seems like an unacceptable and unequal application of the law. I seem to
> remember somewhere that all laws have to be equally administered or they
> are
> unconstitutional. And why put that restriction on us anyways? What pointy
> headed bureaucrat thought of that one and why? I suggest we, as RPA
> members,
> use our clout to get rid of this unconstitutional and bullshit set of
> regulations!
>
> Frank
>
> "All proficiency/practice flights shall be conducted within the
> geographical
> area described in the applicant's program letter and any amendments to
> that
> letter, but that area will not exceed 300 nautical miles of the aircraft's
> home base airport. An exception is permitted for proficiency flying
> outside
> of the area stated above for organized formation flying, training, or
> checkout in conjunction with a specific event listed in the applicant's
> program letter (or amendments). The program letter should indicate the
> location and dates for this proficiency flying."
>
> OOOHHHH............But if you're "grandfathered" and one of the "special
> ones" you don't have to do this even though you own the exact same
> airplane.
> What a crock of shit these bureaucrats have done to us! What the hell
> gives
> them the right to unilaterally declare the exact same planes different?
> F'in
> bastards!
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Frank Haertlein wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
> Yakkers;
> I'm asking WHY should some of us be "Grandfathered" into no flight
> restrictions for Experimental Exhibition registered aircraft
> (pre-moratorium) and others with the exact same plane be limited with FAA
> restrictions like the no flight past a 300 mile limit rule?
Stupidity.
> What the hell
> were these pointy headed FAA bureaucrats thinking?
Hahahahahaha. Thinking bureaucrats. Now that is funny! There is no
thought to it at all and therefore it makes complete sense.
You see, the paperwork already existed. Paperwork is God. You cannot
change existing paperwork. OTOH, you can do anything you want to NEW
paperwork. Why is this confusing to you?
> Where do they get off
> letting some have all the freedoms they want while restricting others?
Because it is their ball and we have let them make the rules.
> It
> seems like an unacceptable and unequal application of the law.
Remember, you are talking administrative law rather than Constitutional
or statutory law. It doesn't have to be equal.
> I seem to
> remember somewhere that all laws have to be equally administered or they are
> unconstitutional.
It *is* being equally administered. All newly imported aircraft are
given the same treatment with exactly the same LoL.
> And why put that restriction on us anyways? What pointy
> headed bureaucrat thought of that one and why?
I don't know who but I can answer "why". Because they felt like it. And
because they have to have something different from "certificated"
aircraft. Otherwise why would anyone bother with certification?
> I suggest we, as RPA members,
> use our clout to get rid of this unconstitutional and bullshit set of
> regulations!
Oh please Frank. No more. I will probably die of a heart attack if you
make me laugh any harder.
>
> Frank
>
> "All proficiency/practice flights shall be conducted within the geographical
> area described in the applicant's program letter and any amendments to that
> letter, but that area will not exceed 300 nautical miles of the aircraft's
> home base airport. An exception is permitted for proficiency flying outside
> of the area stated above for organized formation flying, training, or
> checkout in conjunction with a specific event listed in the applicant's
> program letter (or amendments). The program letter should indicate the
> location and dates for this proficiency flying."
No problem. Drop a note to your FSDO in a fax and go flying. Or change
your program letter as often as you like and ship it off to your FSDO.
Have your program letter list shows all over the country. That way, no
matter where you are, you are always 'enroute' to a show.
> OOOHHHH............But if you're "grandfathered" and one of the "special
> ones" you don't have to do this even though you own the exact same airplane.
Hey Frank, consider automatic weapons. On one someone paid the tax and
got the stamp before the FOPA of 1986 went into effect. That owner may
legally own and operate that automatic weapon. The exact same weapon,
one serial number different, but for which the tax was not paid, is now
illegal and possession of it is a felony -- a *BIG* felony ... unless
you work for the government. (Ever wonder why the government doesn't
have to adhere to its own laws?) And there is no way to *ever* be able
to make that second, *identical*, automatic weapon legal. That one is
even funnier than our airworthiness certificates.
> What a crock of shit these bureaucrats have done to us! What the hell gives
> them the right to unilaterally declare the exact same planes different? F'in
> bastards!
So, get a bill passed. Statutory law trumps administrative law. Or get
arrested and fight it out in court. At that point the judicial branch
can take notice and potentially change the interpretation or even strike
down the administrative law as unconstitutional. Lots of hard work.
FWIW Frank, I agree with you 100%. The only thing is, if I didn't laugh
I would cry.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 44
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| Subject: | Winds over the Caribbean (was: Oxygen quality) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Ron Davis wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> I've never flown from USVI to Florida. Are there a lot of mountains on
> that route?
Ha ha. You and Frank. ;-)
The prevailing winds change over 100 degrees as you go from sea level to
17,000'. By flying 'low' when going NW I get a push. When flying high
going SE I get a push. The point of zero effective wind occurs at about
12,000'. And of course the airplane burns a lot less fuel at 17,000 than
down at 8,000.
I figured this one out from watching the satellite pictures of the
Caribbean. You can see the low-level clouds traveling NW while the
high-level clouds (usually cirrus) travel E to ENE.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 45
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Brian, Dennis;
Not sure what this has to do with air bottles except maybe air vs nitrogen
but here is my 2 cents worth; Please keep in mind that I just arrived home
after an evening of pleasant conversation and too much very good rye
whiskey.
Ignition Timing;
The Huosai with a 25 deg auto advance mag. is set to approx. 7 degs
(CRANKSHAFT) BTDC or 7 X 0.787 PROPSHAFT. Too tired to fitgure it out.
The M14P if you were using a 25 deg auto advance mag rather than the M9F
would be set at approx. 1 deg (CRANKSHAFT) BTDC or 1 X 0.658 PROPSHAFT.
(Hell, I can figure that out)
Either engine will start using N2 provided that it starts in the first one
or two attempts. After that there is no hope. The reason is that the
starting charge (air or N2) is injected on the power stroke. Ignition takes
place in a different cylinder which is picking up AIR from the intake
system. If the start fails and all cylinders become contaminated with an
excess of N2 then you might as well go and have a drink cause it ain't going
to start no how.
Cheers;
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air bottles
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
>> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>>
>> Brian,
>> That is most likely the case with the standard M14P which has M9F fixed
>> timing magnetos that are timed at 14-16 degrees before TDC. On the
>> Housai (if I'm not mistaken) and just like the M14PF, both have
>> centrifugal advance mags and are timed after TDC, depending on the
>> number stamped in the boss of the magneto under the cover.
>
> It thought that the centrifugal-advance mag was set to about 2 degrees
> BTDC.
>
> But be that as it may, that is a mag timing issue and that doesn't have
> any effect so long as the spark timing is not so retarded as to fire
> after the air distributor injects air into that cylinder.
>
> The trick is that if the spark doesn't fire the cylinder the crank
> rotates a bit more before the air is injected to turn the engine. If the
> air is injected at or before the spark fires the cylinder it either
> leans the mixture (air in the system) or eliminates the oxygen in the
> cylinder (N2 in the system). If air is injected too early you can
> compensate by overpriming the engine to deal with the extra air in the
> cylinder. If you inject N2, no amount of fuel will solve the problem as
> the N2 dilutes the O2 in the mixture until it won't support combustion.
>
> So the problem really is an air distributor timing problem. If you
> retard the air injection your engine will start just fine with N2 in the
> pneumatic system.
>
> In any case, that is how I see the system working. If I am wrong I would
> love to know why. The nice thing about engines is that, if the timing is
> right and they have a proper fuel/air mixture, they will run.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
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