Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:22 AM - Re: Best regs in the world (Daniel Fortin)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Best regs in the world (Daniel Fortin)
3. 05:27 AM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 05:45 AM - Re: Best regs in the world (Ron Davis)
5. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: Re: AYS-bound (Ron Davis)
6. 05:54 AM - Re: Best regs in the world (Ron Davis)
7. 06:09 AM - Re: Best regs in the world (Beverly and Cameron Donnelly)
8. 06:26 AM - Re: Best regs in the world (Daniel Fortin)
9. 07:11 AM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Roger Kemp)
10. 07:23 AM - Best regs in the world (JOE HOWSE)
11. 09:32 AM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Brian Lloyd)
12. 09:43 AM - Aircraft Paint (Mark Sorenson)
13. 10:04 AM - Re: Best regs in the world (Walter Lannon)
14. 10:39 AM - Re: Aircraft Paint (Ernest Martinez)
15. 10:40 AM - Re: Aircraft Paint (doug sapp)
16. 10:56 AM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Ernest Martinez)
17. 11:27 AM - Pilot versus Aircraft (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
18. 11:44 AM - Re: Pilot versus Aircraft (fish@aviation-tech.com)
19. 12:04 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Roger Kemp)
20. 12:12 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Brian Lloyd)
21. 12:28 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Ernest Martinez)
22. 12:38 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (cjpilot710@aol.com)
23. 12:42 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Roger Kemp)
24. 12:44 PM - Re: Pilot versus Aircraft (Robert Starnes)
25. 01:27 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Brian Lloyd)
26. 01:30 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Roger Kemp)
27. 01:33 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Brian Lloyd)
28. 03:36 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Terry Lewis)
29. 04:21 PM - More Decompression Sickening sickness. (Roger Kemp)
30. 04:21 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (Roger Kemp)
31. 04:53 PM - Soviet Air Patches (Ernest Martinez)
32. 05:06 PM - Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) (JOffice@aol.com)
33. 05:39 PM - Re: More Decompression Sickening sickness. (Brian Lloyd)
34. 06:06 PM - More sickness. (Robert Starnes)
35. 07:01 PM - Re: More Decompression Sickening sickness. (Roger Kemp)
36. 07:06 PM - Re: More sickness. (Roger Kemp)
37. 07:29 PM - Re: FAA & Warbirds (MikSpin@aol.com)
38. 08:03 PM - Re: Best regs in the world (N13472@aol.com)
39. 08:03 PM - Re: More sickness. (Robert Starnes)
40. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: FAA & Warbirds (Roger Kemp)
41. 09:22 PM - March Fly-in (Mark Sorenson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Best regs in the world |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
Daytime? VFR? No over water????
You have been mislead my friend. The airplanes can, if properly equipped,
fly in any conditions. When they were originally issued a CofA (back it the
old days), it was limited to Day-VFR. One had to prove to TC that the
airplane was equipped in accordance with the Night or IFR equipment list and
the limitation was removed. Today, one can get night IFR certification upon
original issue of the Limitations.
D
>From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:31:39 -0700
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>Daytime, no overwater, VFR, right?
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:14 AM
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>
>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>>
>>There is more to this Medical issue the meets the eye. I personally know
>>the people involved in this dispute and can say that they and Transport
>>Canada have not seen eye to eye for quite some time. The general feeling
>>is that TC is dusting off an obscure REG to pull a "Bob Hoover" on them. I
>>sincerely hope they are successful in their fight, for he definitely is
>>more fit then a lot of us for acro work.
>>
>>As for Walt's comment, we Canadian were successful a few years back in
>>obtaining from TC the authorization to operate ANY (from the Yak to the
>>Mig21) Warbirds as a recreational airplane. Basically, all Canadian YAK/CJ
>>are pre-moratorium.
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>
>>>From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>>Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:36:44 -0800
>>>
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>>>
>>>Gus;
>>>Before you beat up on Canada maybe you should ask some questions of your
>>>friend who has a friend who had by-pass surgery.
>>>For example when did he have the surgery.
>>>
>>>Being a long in the tooth Canadian pilot I have a number of pilot friends
>>>who have had bypass surgery and returned to flight status after a period
>>>of time.
>>>
>>>In one case after a quintupal by-pass back to commercial operation in six
>>>months.
>>>
>>>The Feds can be a pain in the ass here in many respects but in fact are
>>>no different than the FAA or any other civil "servants".
>>>
>>>I guess you missed Joe's post a few day's back pointiung out that us poor
>>>downtrodden frozen Canucks can fly our CJ's, Yak's etc. anywhere in the
>>>country at any time for any reason without sending a FAX to anyone. Yeah
>>>we do have it tough!
>>>
>>>Walt
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:50 AM
>>>Subject: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>>>
>>>>See while our (FAA) regs may be a pile of s&
t, they are the best pile
>>>>of
>>>>s
&t you can get, Read below :-
>>>>
>>>>From: <aboyd@qnx.com>
>>>>Subj: [Acro] Acro Videos, etc
>>>>Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:39 pm
>>>>Size: 1K
>>>>To: <acro@aerobatics.ws>
>>>>
>>>>We're busy trying to get four pilots trained up and qualified, but we've
>>>>hit
>>>>a minor snag.
>>>>
>>>>One of our pilots had heart bypass surgery, and our local Feds
>>>>(Transport
>>>>Canada) are saying that it's medically unsafe to fly aerobatics after
>>>>heart
>>>>bypass surgery.
>>>>
>>>>We asked them what data they had, and their reply was "none". We
>>>>pointed
>>>>out to them that in the USA, the FAA permitted aerobatics after heart
>>>>bypass
>>>>surgery, and Transport Canada replied "We don't care about the FAA".
>>>>
>>>>We really don't want to let Transport Canada set a precedent like this,
>>>>on
>>>>no evidence - in fact, ignoring the evidence - so we're off the Tribunal
>>>>to
>>>>argue this.
>>>>
>>>>If you - or someone else you know - has had heart bypass surgery, and
>>>>went
>>>>on to fly aerobatics on his FAA medical, I'd appreciate it if you could
>>>>send
>>>>me an email with his or her name, so that I could present a list of
>>>>American
>>>>pilots to the Tribunal who had heart bypass surgery, had got their FAA
>>>>medicals back, and went on to fly aerobatics without medical
>>>>complications
>>>>from their heart surgery. I don't want to violate anyone's privacy,
>>>>though!
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>aboyd ATP www.pittspecials.com/movies/outsideloop.wmv
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Acro mailing list
>>>>Acro@aerobatics.ws
>>>>http://acro.aerobatics.ws/iac_exploder.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Best regs in the world |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
Ahhh, the old CofA validation.
I have done quite a few of those for both my Canadian CJ and my US Fouga.
Facts; Any non-certified airplane need a CofA validation when flying in
foreign airspace. Just last week, I flew an airplane for a museum on a ferry
flight permit and had to do a 50nm detour to remain within Canadian airspace
since we didn't have time to talk to the FAA about this little endeavor of
ours.
When a Canadian non-certified Warbird need to go to the US, the operator
MUST prior to entry into the country obtain a letter from the FAA.
Depending on which FSDO you deal with (surprised?) they may issue the letter
for a specific event (ie Plattsburgh airshow), list the port of entry and
the airports from which they allow you to operate (these FSDO will usually
only allow airports that fall in their region...). Usually, these FSDO will
also give you a short time frame for this event ie; 2 or 3 days. Should you
need more time, you need another letter! Once in a while you find a FSDO
that is a little more logic, they will issue you a letter valid for any
event with any port of entry with all the required technical stops and the
letter is usually valid until Dec 31st. I'll let you guess which one I am
currently dealing with...
When a US experimental Warbird needs to come to Canada, the operator MUST
prior to entry in the country obtain a letter from TC. The difference here
is that there are strict procedures that the TC inspector must follow in
issuing these letters. All letters are basically the same. All impose the
same restrictions (which are basically validating the FAA issued
limitations) and all letters are valid for 90days. No restriction of
airports, time (other then the 90days) and the letter is valid anywhere in
the country. Yes it is true that TC has a user pas system and such a
validation cost $100 CDN, but Canada custom is free!!! US Custom has been
charging $25/year for as long as I can remember.
Walt,
I ever flew the Mig21, but the Hawker Hunters I did fly fall under the same
category as any CJ and we flew those IFR all the time. Sure TC may impose
more severe limitations of Fighter airplane, but again, if they are equipped
for night/IFR, they will be allowed to fly in such conditions.
Cheers,
Dan
>From: N13472@aol.com
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:08:03 EST
>
>
>In a message dated 1/17/2006 7:53:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>wlannon@cablerocket.com writes:
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:31 PM
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> > Daytime, no overwater, VFR, right?
>
>Ron;
>
>There are a whole bunch of restrictions that CAN be imposed since these
>are
>non type certificated aircraft. The Mig 21 I am sure would have most of
>them
>attached to the airworthiness certificate. In the case of the CJ the only
>one I have seen attached is the provision for no operation in foreign
>airspace without the authorization of the foreign authority. So if we go
>south we do have to send a FAX to the FAA.
>Night operation is OK provided the aircraft is properly equipped.
>IFR which apparently was initially restricted is also OK providing
>equipment
>meets IFR requirements. No different than type certified for both night &
>IFR and of course the same maintenance standards apply. Can you operate
>IFR
>in the US without altimeter, encoder etc. calibration and certification? I
>doubt it.
>Overwater?? Not even mentioned in the restriction list.
>
>Walt
>
>
>Only a fax to the FAA?? When I went to Canada it was several phone calls
>and
>$100.00
>Canadian! To get approval to take my CJ into Canada. Although I must say
>that dealing
>with the Canadian FAA i.e. Transport Canada was a very good experience. All
>of the people
>I dealt with were very helpful, they returned all phone calls and I felt
>that they really wanted
>to help me get the paper work done so I could attend some airshows in
>Canada.
>
>Tom & Nora Elliott
>CASCADE WARBIRDS
>CJ-6A NX63727
>777 Quartz Ave # 7004
>Sandy Valley NV 89019
>Home 702-723-1223
>Fax 702-723-1243
>Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
>Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
Frankly I don't see any difference except by degree.
You takeoff and go up - - you decompress.
You come down to land - - you compress.
You jump in the water and go down - - you compress.
You (hopefully) bob to the surface - - you decompress.
Now you can never go deeper (there is a bottom) than you go high (a vacuum
mean decompress right? Boy, I bet that would hurt ).
But water is thicker than air, sooooooo it would have more effect per foot
than air.
But how fast you go up in the air would have the same effect as if you went
up to fast in water? So a guy is sitting in a rocket is going to have the
same effect on him as a guy coming up from the bottom of the ocean?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Gee I'm being to see what that old fart ment: "If God want man to swim He'd
given him fins and he were suppose to fly He'd given him feathers. Dearn
foolishness!"
FD44- CAVU, brisk breeze from the NW, 55 F on the patio.
Jim " Pappy" Goolsby
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Best regs in the world |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Perhaps I am wrong. I was under the impression that night VFR was
prohibited in Canada in all aircraft. It is in most of the world. I was
also under the impression that Canada prohibited all single-engine aircraft
from flying over water, unless within gliding distance of land, and I was
under the impression that non-type certificated planes were restricted to
VFR in the great white North.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>> Daytime, no overwater, VFR, right?
>
> Ron;
>
> There are a whole bunch of restrictions that CAN be imposed since these
> are non type certificated aircraft. The Mig 21 I am sure would have most
> of them attached to the airworthiness certificate. In the case of the CJ
> the only one I have seen attached is the provision for no operation in
> foreign airspace without the authorization of the foreign authority. So if
> we go south we do have to send a FAX to the FAA.
> Night operation is OK provided the aircraft is properly equipped.
> IFR which apparently was initially restricted is also OK providing
> equipment meets IFR requirements. No different than type certified for
> both night & IFR and of course the same maintenance standards apply. Can
> you operate IFR in the US without altimeter, encoder etc. calibration and
> certification? I doubt it.
> Overwater?? Not even mentioned in the restriction list.
>
> Walt
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>
>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> There is more to this Medical issue the meets the eye. I personally
>>> know the people involved in this dispute and can say that they and
>>> Transport Canada have not seen eye to eye for quite some time. The
>>> general feeling is that TC is dusting off an obscure REG to pull a "Bob
>>> Hoover" on them. I sincerely hope they are successful in their fight,
>>> for he definitely is more fit then a lot of us for acro work.
>>>
>>> As for Walt's comment, we Canadian were successful a few years back in
>>> obtaining from TC the authorization to operate ANY (from the Yak to the
>>> Mig21) Warbirds as a recreational airplane. Basically, all Canadian
>>> YAK/CJ are pre-moratorium.
>>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Re: AYS-bound |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nitrogen%20narcosis
nitrogen narcosis
n.
A condition of confusion or stupor resulting from increased levels of
dissolved nitrogen in the blood, as that occurring in deep-sea divers
breathing air under high pressure.
Source: The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by
Houghton Mifflin Company.
Main Entry: nitrogen narcosis
Function: noun
: a state of euphoria and exhilaration that occurs when nitrogen in normal
air enters the bloodstream at approximately seven times atmospheric pressure
(as in deepwater diving) called also rapture of the deep
Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, 2002 Merriam-Webster,
Inc.
nitrogen narcosis
n : confused or stuporous state caused by high levels of dissolved nitrogen
in the blood; "deep-sea divers can suffer nitrogen narcosis from breathing
air under high pressure"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Re: AYS-bound
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Brian,
> Best check again on the nitrogen Narcosis thing at altitude It happens.
> It is called decompression sickness. The treatment for it is recompression
> in a dive chamber. I have had to fly two military aviators to the chamber
> one at Brooks, AFB and the other was at Beale AFB. Both had to be flown
> with the cabin pressurized to sea level because of the risk of worsening
> the decompression sickness. One of those pilots was my Squadron cc. He had
> a gradual cabin pressure leak due to a slow leaking canopy seal.
> There are two ways to get the "Bends." One is from decompression and the
> other is from compression. In either case, N2 comes out of solution in
> blood. It coleses into gas bubbles in the tissue. Most commonly in an
> injured joint. It also can happen in the spinal cord, brain (neurological
> nitrogen narcosis), and the pulmonary tree. (the chokes). That is putting
> it in simple terms.
> In otherwords, every time you take that unpressurised twin above FL 180,
> you are at risk for for developing the "bends".
> Doc
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: 1/17/2006 8:18:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Re: AYS-bound
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger Kemp wrote:
>> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>> >
>> > Brian,
>> > If I were going to operate continuous above FL 150, I would install a
>> > diluter demand regulator, a O2 tank in the instrument bay, a CRU-6O and
> an
>> > aviators 02 mask.
>>
>> Well, you can do that if you like. It wastes O2 compared to a pulse
>> demand regulator like Mountain High's or Nelson's but, what the hey, O2
>> is cheap ... to the military.
>>
>> > Also, if I were going to climb to >FL2OO- 250 , I would
>> > pre-breath 100% 02 for 20 minutes. Just because my old fat self is at
>> > higher risk for nitrogen narcosis.
>>
>> Working on our physiology are we? Let's see -- nitrogen narcosis, aka
>> "rapture of the deep," comes from a *higher* partial pressure of N2
>> dissolved in nervous tissue. You don't get narc'd when you go up, only
>> down, as in SCUBA. When the dissolved N2 comes out of the tissues as the
>> pressure drops you get decompression illness, otherwise known as "the
>> bends".
>>
>> > That is assuming I intended to remain at attitude for a XC > 30 min. to
> 1
>> > hour or so.
>>
>> Well, given how long it takes to get up there I not particularly worried
>> unless I have been SCUBA diving. No flying within 24 hours of any
>> decompression diving. Other than that, no big if we are going to be
>> working at 250 and below. If I were going to be pressure breathing O2 at
>> 420 I would start to worry about it.
>>
>> > you already know the instruments needed for IFR@ FL's.
>>
>> You need instruments? Whoa dude, awesome! I play keyboards myself.
>>
>> > as you
>> > say staying below FL18 does not require filing IFR. Only if you want to
> get
>> > over some stuff, would you want to file IFR.
>>
>> Let's see, there was this beautiful woman and I am still trying to get
>> over her. Now I know that filing IFR will help.
>>
>> > you are going to want that
>> > down filled Flight Suit at those FL's this time of year. Actually, you
>> > would want them in the summer to if you plan on staying up therein that
>> > air-ish YAK of mine!
>>
>> You know what Dog? Been there, done that. I wear my long johns,
>> fleece-lined flight jacket, and warmie socks. No problems, even in
>> winter.
>>
>> > Dogmatic Viperdoc
>>
>> --
>> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
>> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>
>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Best regs in the world |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Can you get night VFR?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>
> Daytime? VFR? No over water????
>
> You have been mislead my friend. The airplanes can, if properly equipped,
> fly in any conditions. When they were originally issued a CofA (back it
> the old days), it was limited to Day-VFR. One had to prove to TC that the
> airplane was equipped in accordance with the Night or IFR equipment list
> and the limitation was removed. Today, one can get night IFR certification
> upon original issue of the Limitations.
>
> D
>
>
>>From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:31:39 -0700
>>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>>Daytime, no overwater, VFR, right?
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Fortin"
>><fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:14 AM
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>
>>
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>There is more to this Medical issue the meets the eye. I personally know
>>>the people involved in this dispute and can say that they and Transport
>>>Canada have not seen eye to eye for quite some time. The general feeling
>>>is that TC is dusting off an obscure REG to pull a "Bob Hoover" on them.
>>>I sincerely hope they are successful in their fight, for he definitely is
>>>more fit then a lot of us for acro work.
>>>
>>>As for Walt's comment, we Canadian were successful a few years back in
>>>obtaining from TC the authorization to operate ANY (from the Yak to the
>>>Mig21) Warbirds as a recreational airplane. Basically, all Canadian
>>>YAK/CJ are pre-moratorium.
>>>
>>>Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>>>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>>>Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:36:44 -0800
>>>>
>>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon"
>>>><wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>>>>
>>>>Gus;
>>>>Before you beat up on Canada maybe you should ask some questions of your
>>>>friend who has a friend who had by-pass surgery.
>>>>For example when did he have the surgery.
>>>>
>>>>Being a long in the tooth Canadian pilot I have a number of pilot
>>>>friends who have had bypass surgery and returned to flight status after
>>>>a period of time.
>>>>
>>>>In one case after a quintupal by-pass back to commercial operation in
>>>>six months.
>>>>
>>>>The Feds can be a pain in the ass here in many respects but in fact are
>>>>no different than the FAA or any other civil "servants".
>>>>
>>>>I guess you missed Joe's post a few day's back pointiung out that us
>>>>poor downtrodden frozen Canucks can fly our CJ's, Yak's etc. anywhere in
>>>>the country at any time for any reason without sending a FAX to anyone.
>>>>Yeah we do have it tough!
>>>>
>>>>Walt
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:50 AM
>>>>Subject: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>See while our (FAA) regs may be a pile of s&
t, they are the best pile
>>>>>of
>>>>>s
&t you can get, Read below :-
>>>>>
>>>>>From: <aboyd@qnx.com>
>>>>>Subj: [Acro] Acro Videos, etc
>>>>>Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:39 pm
>>>>>Size: 1K
>>>>>To: <acro@aerobatics.ws>
>>>>>
>>>>>We're busy trying to get four pilots trained up and qualified, but
>>>>>we've hit
>>>>>a minor snag.
>>>>>
>>>>>One of our pilots had heart bypass surgery, and our local Feds
>>>>>(Transport
>>>>>Canada) are saying that it's medically unsafe to fly aerobatics after
>>>>>heart
>>>>>bypass surgery.
>>>>>
>>>>>We asked them what data they had, and their reply was "none". We
>>>>>pointed
>>>>>out to them that in the USA, the FAA permitted aerobatics after heart
>>>>>bypass
>>>>>surgery, and Transport Canada replied "We don't care about the FAA".
>>>>>
>>>>>We really don't want to let Transport Canada set a precedent like this,
>>>>>on
>>>>>no evidence - in fact, ignoring the evidence - so we're off the
>>>>>Tribunal to
>>>>>argue this.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you - or someone else you know - has had heart bypass surgery, and
>>>>>went
>>>>>on to fly aerobatics on his FAA medical, I'd appreciate it if you could
>>>>>send
>>>>>me an email with his or her name, so that I could present a list of
>>>>>American
>>>>>pilots to the Tribunal who had heart bypass surgery, had got their FAA
>>>>>medicals back, and went on to fly aerobatics without medical
>>>>>complications
>>>>>from their heart surgery. I don't want to violate anyone's privacy,
>>>>>though!
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>aboyd ATP www.pittspecials.com/movies/outsideloop.wmv
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Acro mailing list
>>>>>Acro@aerobatics.ws
>>>>>http://acro.aerobatics.ws/iac_exploder.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Best regs in the world |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Beverly and Cameron Donnelly" <cdonnell@mts.net>
Yep, wrong. Our rules are available on the net from T.C.(Sorry, I don't
have the link handy, will follow up). The only restictions to night VFR
flight apply to commercial operators flying single pistion aircraft with
passengers (student pilots in pursuit of a night endorsement are allowed).
If you are over water beyond gliding distance from land, appropriate
survival equipment such as life jackets is required. over time the
flexibility that non-type certificated planes are operated with has
increased, along with the capabilities of the aircraft.
Have a good one,
Cameron
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron Davis
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Perhaps I am wrong. I was under the impression that night VFR was
prohibited in Canada in all aircraft. It is in most of the world. I was
also under the impression that Canada prohibited all single-engine aircraft
from flying over water, unless within gliding distance of land, and I was
under the impression that non-type certificated planes were restricted to
VFR in the great white North.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>> Daytime, no overwater, VFR, right?
>
> Ron;
>
> There are a whole bunch of restrictions that CAN be imposed since these
> are non type certificated aircraft. The Mig 21 I am sure would have most
> of them attached to the airworthiness certificate. In the case of the CJ
> the only one I have seen attached is the provision for no operation in
> foreign airspace without the authorization of the foreign authority. So if
> we go south we do have to send a FAX to the FAA.
> Night operation is OK provided the aircraft is properly equipped.
> IFR which apparently was initially restricted is also OK providing
> equipment meets IFR requirements. No different than type certified for
> both night & IFR and of course the same maintenance standards apply. Can
> you operate IFR in the US without altimeter, encoder etc. calibration and
> certification? I doubt it.
> Overwater?? Not even mentioned in the restriction list.
>
> Walt
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>
>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> There is more to this Medical issue the meets the eye. I personally
>>> know the people involved in this dispute and can say that they and
>>> Transport Canada have not seen eye to eye for quite some time. The
>>> general feeling is that TC is dusting off an obscure REG to pull a "Bob
>>> Hoover" on them. I sincerely hope they are successful in their fight,
>>> for he definitely is more fit then a lot of us for acro work.
>>>
>>> As for Walt's comment, we Canadian were successful a few years back in
>>> obtaining from TC the authorization to operate ANY (from the Yak to the
>>> Mig21) Warbirds as a recreational airplane. Basically, all Canadian
>>> YAK/CJ are pre-moratorium.
>>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
--
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Best regs in the world |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
Ron,
Night VFR is authorized in Canada in any aircraft that is properly equipped.
Personally, I don't like flying a single at night that much, but it is legal
non the less. The fact the airplane is non-type certified has nothing to do
with its ability to fly at night or in IFR. The equipment installed must
simply meet all night/IFR regulation and be maintainned IAW all night / IFR
maintenance requirements. Including any AD or SB; not to the airplane, but
the avionics / instruments. As with a "normal" airplane.
As for over water flight, you are correct in saying that all single engine
must remain withing gliding distance of land UNLESS sufficient floating
devices are carried for all pearson on board. Most of whom have flown with
me out of OSH know I carry 2 life vest in my CJ enroute to MTW. There is
simply no way my CJ will glide to any shore if the engine quits at 1500ft in
the middle of lake Winabago.
Cheers,
Dan
>From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:44:47 -0700
>
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>
>Perhaps I am wrong. I was under the impression that night VFR was
>prohibited in Canada in all aircraft. It is in most of the world. I was
>also under the impression that Canada prohibited all single-engine
>aircraft from flying over water, unless within gliding distance of land,
>and I was under the impression that non-type certificated planes were
>restricted to VFR in the great white North.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Lannon"
><wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:49 PM
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>
>
>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:31 PM
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>
>>
>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
>>
>>>Daytime, no overwater, VFR, right?
>>
>>Ron;
>>
>>There are a whole bunch of restrictions that CAN be imposed since these
>>are non type certificated aircraft. The Mig 21 I am sure would have most
>>of them attached to the airworthiness certificate. In the case of the CJ
>>the only one I have seen attached is the provision for no operation in
>>foreign airspace without the authorization of the foreign authority. So if
>>we go south we do have to send a FAX to the FAA.
>>Night operation is OK provided the aircraft is properly equipped.
>>IFR which apparently was initially restricted is also OK providing
>>equipment meets IFR requirements. No different than type certified for
>>both night & IFR and of course the same maintenance standards apply. Can
>>you operate IFR in the US without altimeter, encoder etc. calibration and
>>certification? I doubt it.
>>Overwater?? Not even mentioned in the restriction list.
>>
>>Walt
>>
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Fortin"
>>><fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:14 AM
>>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Daniel Fortin" <fougapilot@hotmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>There is more to this Medical issue the meets the eye. I personally
>>>>know the people involved in this dispute and can say that they and
>>>>Transport Canada have not seen eye to eye for quite some time. The
>>>>general feeling is that TC is dusting off an obscure REG to pull a "Bob
>>>>Hoover" on them. I sincerely hope they are successful in their fight,
>>>>for he definitely is more fit then a lot of us for acro work.
>>>>
>>>>As for Walt's comment, we Canadian were successful a few years back in
>>>>obtaining from TC the authorization to operate ANY (from the Yak to the
>>>>Mig21) Warbirds as a recreational airplane. Basically, all Canadian
>>>>YAK/CJ are pre-moratorium.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
Well Pappy, in your infinite wisdom you have boiled the issue of altitude verses
diving decompression sickness down to its essence. Brilliant! As I was prepared
to condense the 1st 8 chapters of Fundamentals of Aerospace Medicine Third
Edition, Roy L. DeHart M.D. MPH, M.S.I.A., pp.1-161, Diving Medicine Second
Edition, Alfred A. Bove, M.D. and Jefferson C. Davis, M.D., pp. 5-47, The Society
of United States Air Force Flight Surgeons Check List,revised biannually by
the USAFSAM residents- 5th edition, pp 83-85 (the down and dirty version) for
a discussion of decompression sickness Type I and Type II. But, Pappy since
you so eloquently boiled this topic down to its essence, I will refrain from discussions
of partial pressures of nitrogen, water, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and
inert gasses at 1/2 ATA, 1/4 ATA, 0.10 ATA, 1 ATA, 2 ATA, 3 ATA, and 4 ATA.
These all being common altitudes and feet of sea water that man flying and diving
are exposed to. Brian will only claim to know mor
e.
Dogmatic Viperdoc
Roger W. Kemp M.D.
Col. M.C., CFS
State Air Surgeon
HQ ALANG
Senior Aeromedical Examiner -FAA
Boarded in Anesthesia and Pain Management.
With a whole lot of alphebet following my name down.
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/18/2006 7:25:45 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound)
Frankly I don't see any difference except by degree.
You takeoff and go up - - you decompress.
You come down to land - - you compress.
You jump in the water and go down - - you compress.
You (hopefully) bob to the surface - - you decompress.
Now you can never go deeper (there is a bottom) than you go high (a vacuum mean
decompress right? Boy, I bet that would hurt ).
But water is thicker than air, sooooooo it would have more effect per foot than
air.
But how fast you go up in the air would have the same effect as if you went up
to fast in water? So a guy is sitting in a rocket is going to have the same effect
on him as a guy coming up from the bottom of the ocean?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Gee I'm being to see what that old fart ment: "If God want man to swim He'd given
him fins and he were suppose to fly He'd given him feathers. Dearn foolishness!"
FD44- CAVU, brisk breeze from the NW, 55 F on the patio.
Jim " Pappy" Goolsby
Message 10
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| Subject: | Best regs in the world |
I have never had a problem obtaining quote "FOREIGN CIVIL AIRCRAFT SPECIAL FLIGHT
AUTHORIZATION" for flights over US territory, from the FAA.
for my CJ6.
Last one was effective Dec12 2005 to Dec 12 2006.
For day VFR only unless equipped for night VFR and /or IFR.
Joe Howse
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Kemp wrote:
> Well Pappy, in your infinite wisdom you have boiled the issue of
> altitude verses diving decompression sickness down to its essence.
> Brilliant! As I was prepared to condense the 1st 8 chapters of
> _Fundamentals of Aerospace Medicine Third Edition,_ Roy L. DeHart M.D.
> MPH, M.S.I.A., pp.1-161, _Diving Medicine_ Second Edition, Alfred A.
> Bove, M.D. and Jefferson C. Davis, M.D., pp. 5-47, _The Society of
> United States Air Force Flight Surgeons Check List_,revised biannually
> by the USAFSAM residents- 5th edition, pp 83-85 (the down and dirty
> version) for a discussion of decompression sickness Type I and Type II.
> But, Pappy since you so eloquently boiled this topic down to its
> essence, I will refrain from discussions of partial pressures of
> nitrogen, water, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and inert gasses at 1/2 ATA,
> 1/4 ATA, 0.10 ATA, 1 ATA, 2 ATA, 3 ATA, and 4 ATA. These all being
> common altitudes and feet of sea water that man flying and diving are
> exposed to. Brian will only claim to know more.
I don't claim to know more. But I do know when I am right. When I am not
sure I look it up. When it is not a topic I have studied I let someone
else speak in the hope that I will learn something.
That you are an MD with a whole alphabet behind your name does not make
you automatically correct and/or immune from making mistakes. But you
made an error. You then compounded that error when you argue about
correcting your error.
You know what Doc? I don't think I am either smarter or more
knowledgeable than you are. You don't manage to become an MD by being an
idiot. Given that you have been trained far more than I have in this
area I would expect you would have much more knowledge than I. But I
make it a point to know a fair bit about the things that I do. I try to
ensure that the information I have and that I give to my students (in
many areas) is correct. If I discover that I am wrong I go back and make
sure that I correct that information.
This is actually kind of scary. There are probably people who base
life-critical decisions on what you tell them. I now see that, when
faced with evidence that you have made a mistake, rather than saying,
"gee, you're right and I will correct the information," you go off and
try to blow smoke up everyone's ass. You will belittle the source of the
correct information in an attempt to get people to ignore the source
rather than ensure that the others around you have the correct
information. Yup, that is just plain ol' f----- scary.
And Pappy is right about it all being about pressure. It is just that
the devil is in the details. Albert Einstein one put it very succinctly
when he said, "Things should be made as simple as possible -- and no
simpler."
> Dogmatic Viperdoc
> Roger W. Kemp M.D.
> Col. M.C., CFS
> State Air Surgeon
> HQ ALANG
> Senior Aeromedical Examiner -FAA
> Boarded in Anesthesia and Pain Management.
> With a whole lot of alphebet following my name down.
--
Brian Lloyd
Gadfly
Annoying son-of-a-bitch
Asshole
Plain ol' guy with no alphabet after his name
Ordinary pilot
Ordinary CFI
-- but right
Message 12
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Sorenson <marksorenson@sprintpcs.com>
Hello all again.
I am looking into the process of Painting my Yak 55M and was wondering if I could
solicit the group for input on their opinion on the type of paint and process
they use for stripping and painting their airplane. Mine is a 93 model and
the tail fabric looks to be in excellent condition. Thanks again for any an
all input. I live in the Atlanta area. Know any good painters you would recomend?
------------------
Best Regards,
Mark-
678-GO-FLY-HI
--------------------
This message was sent from a Sprint PCS Phone.
Get a Sprint PCS Wireless Mail account!
Sign up via the Wireless Web Browser on your Sprint PCS Phone
or at http://www.sprintpcs.com.
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Best regs in the world |
Hey Tom;
No, I over simplified that, we must write, phone, email or Fax and get a reply
to carry in the aircraft. In this area we are not charged for this service. The
reason, I have been told, is that there is a bilateral agreement in place where
both countries have agreed to free border crossing permits for AMATUER built
aircraft. The FAA have taken the logical and sensible approach to lump us
into that group rather than charge a fee. I don't know if that is regional FAA
decision or not. So far TC is not using the same approach.
So, if you bring a homebuilt into Canada there is no charge but your CJ is still
$100. We are making noise about this but so far no one is listening, it has
a serious impact on attendance at our annual Yak fly-in.
Apologetically;
Walt
Only a fax to the FAA?? When I went to Canada it was several phone calls and
$100.00
Canadian! To get approval to take my CJ into Canada. Although I must say that
dealing
with the Canadian FAA i.e. Transport Canada was a very good experience. All of
the people
I dealt with were very helpful, they returned all phone calls and I felt that
they really wanted
to help me get the paper work done so I could attend some airshows in Canada.
Tom & Nora Elliott
CASCADE WARBIRDS
CJ-6A NX63727
777 Quartz Ave # 7004
Sandy Valley NV 89019
Home 702-723-1223
Fax 702-723-1243
Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Paint |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
Checkout my blog http://commiewarbird.blogspot.com/ , where I
chronicled my CJ paint project. I chose to use Kleen Strip Aircraft
paint remover. It worked very well, but you have to make sure that you
neutralize it well by washing thoroughly with water, and vinegar. If
your anodizing is in good shape, you can forgo the alodine. I used
DuPonts Variprime self etching primer, this precludes the use of an
acid wash for your conversion coating, but I did the acid wash anyway
since it also helped in neutralizing the stripper. A better approach
would be to use a conversion coating and an epoxy primer like DuPont
Colar. Make sure you knock down your primer with scotch brite pads and
some light sanding before shooting your top coat, for a glassy smooth
surface, and wash thoroughly. Finally I used DuPonts Imron as my Top
Coat, and sprayed with an HVLP gun in order to minimize overspray.
A note on the use of HVLP you need plenty of air volume and about
30-40 PSI at the gun to avoid sags and runs, regardless of what the
gun instructions may say. Also I made the mistake of not having
adequate lighting, which resulted in orange peel, and runs.
Overall I got a nice result if not a proffesional job ( severall
booboo's) but it looks a 100 times better than it did before.
Ernie
On 1/18/06, Mark Sorenson <marksorenson@sprintpcs.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Sorenson <marksorenson@sprintpcs.com>
>
> Hello all again.
>
> I am looking into the process of Painting my Yak 55M and was wondering if I could
solicit the group for input on their opinion on the type of paint and process
they use for stripping and painting their airplane. Mine is a 93 model and
the tail fabric looks to be in excellent condition. Thanks again for any an
all input. I live in the Atlanta area. Know any good painters you would recomend?
> ------------------
> Best Regards,
> Mark-
> 678-GO-FLY-HI
> --------------------
> This message was sent from a Sprint PCS Phone.
> Get a Sprint PCS Wireless Mail account!
> Sign up via the Wireless Web Browser on your Sprint PCS Phone
> or at http://www.sprintpcs.com.
>
>
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "doug sapp" <rvfltd@televar.com>
Mark,
Doug Sapp here.
I use a product called Captain Lee's Spray Strip. It is non corrosive,
washes off with and is neutralized (a very important point) by water. It
works best when used in conjunction with a high pressure HOT pressure
washer. I have used it to strip the paint off fabric and it seemed to work
well except on cotton/linen tapes. Ceconite and Stitts seemed to be pretty
compatible if you don't leave it on a long time and are careful in scraping
off the old paint. I would recommend trying a small area on the fabric
covered surfaces before you go at "full tilt".
You can find out your closest dealer by calling 800-343-9763 or email
halon@halonmarketing.com
Whatever you use, stay away from anything that is corrosive.
Give me a call if you need more info.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Sorenson
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:43 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Aircraft Paint
--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Sorenson <marksorenson@sprintpcs.com>
Hello all again.
I am looking into the process of Painting my Yak 55M and was wondering if I
could solicit the group for input on their opinion on the type of paint and
process they use for stripping and painting their airplane. Mine is a 93
model and the tail fabric looks to be in excellent condition. Thanks again
for any an all input. I live in the Atlanta area. Know any good painters
you would recomend?
------------------
Best Regards,
Mark-
678-GO-FLY-HI
--------------------
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
We call it being "Narced" in diving circles. Diving physiology 101.
You go deep, compress, and nitrogen disolves into your tissues, and
you get into a druken like state due to factors beyond my knowledge.
Decompression sickeness also called the bends, is from rapid
de-compression and nitrogen quickly coming out of its soluable state
and back into a gas in your arteries, shake a can of Coke and open,
same thing occurs except its CO2 doing its thing. Those bubbles will
can cause pain or even death due to brain embolisms.
Being narced and the bends are 2 different things and happen at 2 ends
of the spectrum. The only way you would get narced at altitude is if
you were at 90,000 ft and dropped to 20,000 in about 5 seconds, but
getting narced would be the least of your worries.
We have dive computers and tables that we follow which tells us how
many hours we have to wait before acending to any altitude depending
on our dive profile, in order to avoid the bends.
Ernie
Message 17
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| Subject: | Pilot versus Aircraft |
Sorry for adding my comments to this.... but hey Pappy... I love ya buddy,
but you asked for it! (B I G smile!)
Anyway......Pappy's comments below remind me of what a man said a long time
ago about people who own Harley Davidson motorcycles. His comment went
something like this: "There was a time when the man made the motorcycle and
not the motorcyle the man." .
That said, and to spell it out clearly..... a lot of P-51's were shot down
by ME109's and FW190's. As a matter of fact... compare this tidbit... who
was the United States Top Ace in WW-II ??? Of course that would be Richard
Bong, who for the most part flew P-38's. He had 40 confirmed kills. Who was
the leading ace for the Luftwaffe? Well that would be Erich "Bubi" Hartmann
with 352 confirmed victories. Hmmmm.....
Clearly, it is not the airplane that makes the man, but the man who makes
the airplane.
Mark Bitterlich
Ever see those high altitude WW2 gun camera films? The P-51s with the
slightly higher aspect wing was turning in side those 109s &190s. No steep
angles of bank up there. Makes me think that once again the CJ would woop
some ass up there too! Speed below - lift above.
"Oh give me a CJ-6 A
And send me into the fray.
With guns and panache
I'll kick any ass.
Yes! give me a CJ-6 A."
Pappy
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Pilot versus Aircraft |
--> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
Mark,
Remember the Germans, Japanese and others started fighting in 1938, and all
their pilots fought untill killed or the war ended. Our pilots flew for a specific
period of time and were transfered home.
I think that if you could pit the best of all countries, any of the top aces
could win on any given Sunday!
Fly Safe
John Fischer
>
>
>Sorry for adding my comments to this.... but hey Pappy... I love ya buddy,
>but you asked for it! (B I G smile!)
>
>Anyway......Pappy's comments below remind me of what a man said a long time
>ago about people who own Harley Davidson motorcycles. His comment went
>something like this: "There was a time when the man made the motorcycle and
>not the motorcyle the man." .
>
>That said, and to spell it out clearly..... a lot of P-51's were shot down
>by ME109's and FW190's. As a matter of fact... compare this tidbit... who
>was the United States Top Ace in WW-II ??? Of course that would be Richard
>Bong, who for the most part flew P-38's. He had 40 confirmed kills. Who was
>the leading ace for the Luftwaffe? Well that would be Erich "Bubi" Hartmann
>with 352 confirmed victories. Hmmmm.....
>
>Clearly, it is not the airplane that makes the man, but the man who makes
>the airplane.
>
>Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
>
>
>Ever see those high altitude WW2 gun camera films? The P-51s with the
>slightly higher aspect wing was turning in side those 109s &190s. No steep
>angles of bank up there. Makes me think that once again the CJ would woop
>some ass up there too! Speed below - lift above.
>
>"Oh give me a CJ-6 A
>And send me into the fray.
>With guns and panache
>I'll kick any ass.
>Yes! give me a CJ-6 A."
>
>Pappy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Brian,
You are right Narcosis is a malady of descent generally below 150 feet
ocean water. I wrote wrong the term when I was speaking of decompression.
Both are related to Nitrogen going into and out of solution in the blood
and tissue.
My first statement about pre-breathing 100% O2 prior to ascending to an
unpressurized altitude was in reference (inferred at the time) to
decreasing the risk of altitude decompression sickness. For that you
asserted that you can only get decompression sickness from diving. And
there you are also wrong. I am wrong for saying Nitrogen Narcosis and you
are wrong for asserting that decompression only comes from ascending from a
compression dive.
The symptoms of Nitrogen Narcosis and Neurological Decompression sickness
can be strikingly similar. One is from descent and the effect of an
increased partial pressure of Nitrogen and other inert gases in
neurological tissue causing mental disorientation. Neurological
Decompression is nitrogen bubbles forming emboli after coming out of
solution as one ascends either from a depth of sea water or from sea level
to altitude. In each case the the common thread is that the the pressure
decreased after the diver or the aviator was subjected to an increased
atmospheric pressure.
An aviator climbing from 1 ATA at sea level to 1/2 ATA at 18000 ft or 1/4
ATA at 33500ft unpressurized is at an increased risk for nitrogen coming
out of solution and forming "bubbles". The same for the diver that was at 4
ATA ~ 100 feet of sea water (fresh water also) and ascending to the surface
without percautionary decompression stops (not that is always protective
either). Yes, bottom time does influence the risk of developing the
"bends". As does other factors such as dehydration, fatigue, exercise at
depth or exercise prior to diving.
Nitrogen Narcosis is from the increased nitrogen in solution disrupting the
electrical potential transfer across the pre and post synaptic cleft of the
CNS. This most likely being in the Reticular Activating system and the
Cortical mantle. It follows the Meyer-Overton hypothesis that states "all
gaseous or volatile substances induce narcosis if they penetrate the lipids
of the cell wall in a definate molar concentraion that is characaristic for
each type of animal tissue aand approximately the same for all narcotics."
That is measured by the mean alveolar concentration (MAC) of the anesthetic
agent. The measure of an anesthetic concentration of an inert gas is the
concentration of the gas at which only 50% of rats will respond to pinching
their tail with a ring forcep. The so called MAC 50. So that is the theory
behind why we can give you an inhaled anesthetic at a concentration
inspired greater than sea level concentration and induce amnesia with
sedation for surgery.
We are comparing Apples and Oranges here.
Sorry Brian for mis-stating Narcosis instead of altitude decompression last
night at 11:20.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 1/17/2006 11:51:15 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound)
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
> Roger Kemp wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Brian,
> > Best check again on the nitrogen Narcosis thing at altitude It
happens.
> > It is called decompression sickness.
>
> Go read your books again. Nitrogen narcosis is a malady that occurs when
> too much N2 is dissolved in the tissues, especially the tissues of the
> nervous system. The symptoms are similar to drunkenness but
> hallucination is not uncommon. Divers who are "narc'd" have been known
> to offer their regulator mouthpiece to passing fish. When N2 is
> dissolved in the tissues it isn't coming out in bubbles.
>
> When the body then decompresses again if it is done too quickly, the N2
> can come out of the tissue in bubbles. These tend to lodge in the joints
> and cause pain which often causes the victim to contort him/herself in
> an attempt to relieve the pain, hence the term "the bends". The official
> name for this malady is decompression sickness. This is a completely
> different malady from nitrogen narcosis. Both involve nitrogen, both
> involve pressure change, but the pathology is different as are the
symptoms.
>
> > The treatment for it is recompression in a dive chamber.
>
> The treatment for decompression sickness is to increase the pressure
> again so that the N2 goes back into solution in the blood and tissues.
>
> The prevention of decompression sickness is to reduce the pressure
> gradually so that the excess N2 in the tissues can stay in solution and
> move into the bloodstream where it can move to the lungs and be exhaled.
>
> > I have had to fly two military aviators to the chamber
> > one at Brooks, AFB and the other was at Beale AFB. Both had to be flown
> > with the cabin pressurized to sea level because of the risk of worsening
> > the decompression sickness. One of those pilots was my Squadron cc. He
had
> > a gradual cabin pressure leak due to a slow leaking canopy seal.
>
> Had he been diving? Remember, the pressure change going from sea level
> to FL250 is less than the pressure change from the surface to 30 feet
> underwater. I suppose it is possible for someone to get decompression
> sickness loss of cabin pressure but a slow leak is unlikely to cause the
> problem. I am not saying it can't happen but I am skeptical unless there
> was some other mechanism acting to raise the level of N2 in the tissue.
> Living at sea level is not likely to cause enough N2 to dissolve in the
> blood to cause the bends to happen at FL250, especially if the pressure
> drops gradually.
>
> > There are two ways to get the "Bends." One is from decompression and
the
> > other is from compression.
>
> Sorry, no. The Bends occur *only* on decompression. Compression just
> causes more N2 to dissolve in the tissues. If the person is suffering
> from The Bends recomressing him/her causes the N2 bubbles to go back
> into solution. Once that happens you can begin slow decompression thus
> allowing the N2 to slowly and safely move from the tissue to the blood
> to the lungs and then be exhaled.
>
> > In either case, N2 comes out of solution in blood.
>
> No, it doesn't. It *only* does that on decompression, hence the name
> decompression sickness.
>
> > It coleses into gas bubbles in the tissue. Most commonly in an
> > injured joint. It also can happen in the spinal cord, brain
(neurological
> > nitrogen narcosis), and the pulmonary tree. (the chokes). That is
putting
> > it in simple terms.
>
> You are describing only decompression sickness. You also called it
> nitrogen narcosis which it isn't. Now nitrogen narcosis does happen when
> you compress the body in the presence of N2. The greater the pressure,
> the greater the symptoms of narcosis.
>
> This is why divers use special breathing gasses that reduce or eliminate
> the N2 in the breathing mix (heliox or nitrox) -- so that they are less
> likely to experience narcosis while down and less likely to experience
> The Bends upon ascending.
>
> > In otherwords, every time you take that unpressurised twin above FL 180,
> > you are at risk for for developing the "bends".
>
> Any time you reduce the pressure on the body there is some chance of
> developing decompression sickness. OTOH, the chance is very, very,
> *VERY* small for people living at sea level or above who don't dive and
> smaller still if the pressure change is gradual, i.e. standard rates of
> ascent and not explosive decompression. I think if you go back and
> research this you will find that this is an *extremely* rare event.
>
> As a pilot who spent three years operating in the Virgin Islands who
> dives and flies, I am *VERY* aware of the dangers from rapid pressure
> changes and of going directly from a dive to a flight in an airplane.
> For safety we use a rule of thumb of 24 hours between a decompression
> dive to a flight because we know that even after a successful and safe
> decompression dive, the tissues are still saturated to a higher level of
> N2 than someone who has not been diving. The extra 24 hours allows the
> body to come back to equilibrium before flying. My rule of thumb is
> that, if you have been diving today, we don't fly until tomorrow.
>
> So, yeah, I have some idea how all this works. The threat is vanishingly
> small compared to what you are implying unless you have been diving and
> then the threat is very real.
>
> And nitrogen narcosis is NOT decompression sickness.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Ernest Martinez wrote:
> Being narced and the bends are 2 different things and happen at 2 ends
> of the spectrum. The only way you would get narced at altitude is if
> you were at 90,000 ft and dropped to 20,000 in about 5 seconds, but
> getting narced would be the least of your worries.
And if you were at 90,000' pressure altitude you would already be dead.
Even then it wouldn't happen. It requires a partial pressure of N2 at
about 3 BAR before you start getting enough N2 in your system to
interfere with normal nervous system operation. Nitrogen Narcosis can
only happen when the pressure exceeds that of being 100' deep
underwater. It is not going to happen anywhere on or off Earth when you
are in the atmosphere. Period.
Nitrogen Narcosis comes from the total amount of N2 present in the blood
and tissues. Decompression sickness comes from a too-rapid change in
pressure during ascent/decompression. The one time I would really worry
about decompression sickness in an airplane is during explosive
decompression or right after a dive.
> We have dive computers and tables that we follow which tells us how
> many hours we have to wait before acending to any altitude depending
> on our dive profile, in order to avoid the bends.
You know, I never paid attention to see if the dive computer continues
to do its thing in an aircraft and give you a decompression stop. I
suppose there is no reason why it couldn't. SMOP (small matter of
programming).
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
I have 2 diver computers that I use, they both have (I think, since I
havent used them in 2 years) a mode which you can call up that says
"OK to fly" when you've spent enough time out of the water. Same
algoritm which tells you when you can dive again.
If I remember correctly from Dive school, the dive tables also had
some basic method for determining how much time must lapse before
flying.
>>>Nitrogen Narcosis is from the increased nitrogen in solution disrupting the
electrical potential transfer across the pre and post synaptic cleft of the
CNS. This most likely being in the Reticular Activating system and the
Cortical mantle. It follows the Meyer-Overton hypothesis that states "all
gaseous or volatile substances induce narcosis if they penetrate the lipids
of the cell wall in a definate molar concentraion that is characaristic for
each type of animal tissue aand approximately the same for all narcotics."
That is measured by the mean alveolar concentration (MAC) of the anesthetic
agent. The measure of an anesthetic concentration of an inert gas is the
concentration of the gas at which only 50% of rats will respond to pinching
their tail with a ring forcep. The so called MAC 50.
>>>
Also, the fernaderstand coupling to the finnigan motor spignads, will
de-cobobulate when administered in the presence of sinous friggle
dangle near the copious osmobrosis, causing increased cluster bumpkins
over the entire swaggle noodlefrapses region..
Ernie
On 1/18/06, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Ernest Martinez wrote:
>
> > Being narced and the bends are 2 different things and happen at 2 ends
> > of the spectrum. The only way you would get narced at altitude is if
> > you were at 90,000 ft and dropped to 20,000 in about 5 seconds, but
> > getting narced would be the least of your worries.
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
Do you know the first sign of rapid decompression?
You Fart like you would not believe. Just hope its dry.
Pappy
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
And Now Ernie you are a bonified Meyer - Overton expert!
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 1/18/2006 2:28:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: decompression sickness and narcosis (was:
AYS-bound)
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
>
> I have 2 diver computers that I use, they both have (I think, since I
> havent used them in 2 years) a mode which you can call up that says
> "OK to fly" when you've spent enough time out of the water. Same
> algoritm which tells you when you can dive again.
>
> If I remember correctly from Dive school, the dive tables also had
> some basic method for determining how much time must lapse before
> flying.
>
> >>>Nitrogen Narcosis is from the increased nitrogen in solution
disrupting the
> electrical potential transfer across the pre and post synaptic cleft of
the
> CNS. This most likely being in the Reticular Activating system and the
> Cortical mantle. It follows the Meyer-Overton hypothesis that states "all
> gaseous or volatile substances induce narcosis if they penetrate the
lipids
> of the cell wall in a definate molar concentraion that is characaristic
for
> each type of animal tissue aand approximately the same for all narcotics."
> That is measured by the mean alveolar concentration (MAC) of the
anesthetic
> agent. The measure of an anesthetic concentration of an inert gas is the
> concentration of the gas at which only 50% of rats will respond to
pinching
> their tail with a ring forcep. The so called MAC 50.
> >>>
>
> Also, the fernaderstand coupling to the finnigan motor spignads, will
> de-cobobulate when administered in the presence of sinous friggle
> dangle near the copious osmobrosis, causing increased cluster bumpkins
> over the entire swaggle noodlefrapses region..
>
> Ernie
>
> On 1/18/06, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> wrote:
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> >
> > Ernest Martinez wrote:
> >
> > > Being narced and the bends are 2 different things and happen at 2 ends
> > > of the spectrum. The only way you would get narced at altitude is if
> > > you were at 90,000 ft and dropped to 20,000 in about 5 seconds, but
> > > getting narced would be the least of your worries.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Pilot versus Aircraft |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Robert Starnes <a35plt@yahoo.com>
Since this is the Yak-List I would also like to remind
ya'll that the highest scoring ALLIED ace was Ivan
Kozhedub of the Soviet air force (VVS). Flew P-39's,
P-40's, Yaks and LaGG series fighters.
Asking who the highest scoring allied ace is a sure
way to win a free beer with this info, as everybody
always guesses it was Johnny Johnson, Dick Bong, etc.
Hope to see everybody down in Waycross Saturday.
-Robert Starnes
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Kemp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Brian,
> You are right Narcosis is a malady of descent generally below 150 feet
> ocean water. I wrote wrong the term when I was speaking of decompression.
> Both are related to Nitrogen going into and out of solution in the blood
> and tissue.
> My first statement about pre-breathing 100% O2 prior to ascending to an
> unpressurized altitude was in reference (inferred at the time) to
> decreasing the risk of altitude decompression sickness. For that you
> asserted that you can only get decompression sickness from diving. And
> there you are also wrong. I am wrong for saying Nitrogen Narcosis and you
> are wrong for asserting that decompression only comes from ascending from a
> compression dive.
Hmm, I just went back and reread what I wrote. I think I made it pretty
clear that any time you have a rapid decrease in pressure, whether
ascending from a dive or ascending into the air, you can experience
decompression sickness. What I was trying to assert is that it is very
unlikely in an aircraft and much more likely from a dive. In fact, here
is what I did say:
"Any time you reduce the pressure on the body there is some chance of
developing decompression sickness. OTOH, the chance is very, very,
*VERY* small for people living at sea level or above who don't dive and
smaller still if the pressure change is gradual, i.e. standard rates of
ascent and not explosive decompression. I think if you go back and
research this you will find that this is an *extremely* rare event."
So, no, I did not assert that decompression sickness only comes from
diving. I did assert it is very difficult to make it happen while flying.
In any of the unpressurized aircraft we fly it is almost impossible to
get a change in pressure that is sufficiently rapid to invoke
decompression sickness. Going up right after a dive so that there is
more N2 in the tissues might cause it tho'.
And a rapid decompression from an 8,000' cabin to a 35,000' cabin might
do it. That is why I made the comment about explosive decompression.
> The symptoms of Nitrogen Narcosis and Neurological Decompression sickness
> can be strikingly similar. One is from descent and the effect of an
> increased partial pressure of Nitrogen and other inert gases in
> neurological tissue causing mental disorientation. Neurological
> Decompression is nitrogen bubbles forming emboli after coming out of
> solution as one ascends either from a depth of sea water or from sea level
> to altitude. In each case the the common thread is that the the pressure
> decreased after the diver or the aviator was subjected to an increased
> atmospheric pressure.
Right, that is decompression sickness.
> An aviator climbing from 1 ATA at sea level to 1/2 ATA at 18000 ft or 1/4
> ATA at 33500ft unpressurized is at an increased risk for nitrogen coming
> out of solution and forming "bubbles".
The rate of ascent is a key part of that. We change pressure all the
time when we fly. When was the last time you heard of a person in an
unpressurized aircraft experiencing decompression sickness when that
person had not been diving prior to flying? I have never known of a case
but I don't have that much exposure.
As an AME and (I presume) flight surgeon, you probably have a lot more
exposure to that sort of thing. Still, without explosive decomp and
without some prior activity to increase the N2 saturation, how many
cases of decomp sickness have occurred? I hold that it occurs so
infrequently that it is not worth worrying about.
> The same for the diver that was at 4
> ATA ~ 100 feet of sea water (fresh water also) and ascending to the surface
> without percautionary decompression stops (not that is always protective
> either). Yes, bottom time does influence the risk of developing the
> "bends". As does other factors such as dehydration, fatigue, exercise at
> depth or exercise prior to diving.
Bottom time influences it a lot. It has more effect than all the other
factors you mention. It takes time for the N2 to dissolve in the blood
and then move to the tissues. The longer you are under the greater
partial pressure of N2, the closer you get to equilibrium and the longer
it will take to reach equilibrium again at a lower pressure. That
process can only proceed so fast and any attempt to make it go faster
results in the N2 coming out of solution in gaseous form (bubbles).
Those bubbles hurt.
> Nitrogen Narcosis is from the increased nitrogen in solution disrupting the
> electrical potential transfer across the pre and post synaptic cleft of the
> CNS. This most likely being in the Reticular Activating system and the
> Cortical mantle. It follows the Meyer-Overton hypothesis that states "all
> gaseous or volatile substances induce narcosis if they penetrate the lipids
> of the cell wall in a definate molar concentraion that is characaristic for
> each type of animal tissue aand approximately the same for all narcotics."
> That is measured by the mean alveolar concentration (MAC) of the anesthetic
> agent.
I am familiar with that. The problem is finding inert gasses that have
the effect at partial pressures less than 1 atmosphere. Xenon actually
works pretty well but it is too expensive to use for that purpose.
> The measure of an anesthetic concentration of an inert gas is the
> concentration of the gas at which only 50% of rats will respond to pinching
> their tail with a ring forcep. The so called MAC 50. So that is the theory
> behind why we can give you an inhaled anesthetic at a concentration
> inspired greater than sea level concentration and induce amnesia with
> sedation for surgery.
That is all well and good but I wasn't particularly interested in
anesthetizing rats with inert gasses. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
BTW, my research experience with blood gasses was working with dogs, not
rats. I worked on a research project to develop a system to
automatically determine blood gas concentrations and then make the data
immediately available as part of a patient monitoring system. Writing
the software and building the dedicated microprocessor hardware for that
project was one of the ways I worked my way through college in the '70s.
We used dogs as research subjects. I am sure that nowadays I would be
drawn and quartered by some PETA enthusiast for even admitting I had
something to do with killing dogs for research purposes.
(We took dogs slated for euthanasia at the pound and performed various
tests on cardiopulmonary function. The dogs were treated kindly and
properly anesthetized prior to operating on them. When we had finished
gathering our data they were then euthenized, which is a nice word for
"killed". I did learn a LOT about cardiopulmonary function from that job
tho'.)
But I digress.
> We are comparing Apples and Oranges here.
Agreed.
> Sorry Brian for mis-stating Narcosis instead of altitude decompression last
> night at 11:20.
Right on bro'. It happens. We all make mistakes. The important thing is
to make sure we then get the proper information into people's hands lest
they make erroneous decisions based on improper information. We already
have to make decisions based on insufficient information (as in deciding
what do to in an off-airport landing). Bad information just compounds
the problem.
You get to buy the first round. I will buy the second. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
Darn, still no alphabet soup after my name and I am not old enough yet
to exchange "curmudgeon" for "asshole".
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
Pappy,
That is why you wear a brown fight suit so when you release that wet trapped gas,
it does not show up as well!
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/18/2006 2:38:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound)
Do you know the first sign of rapid decompression?
You Fart like you would not believe. Just hope its dry.
Pappy
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> */Do you know the first sign of rapid decompression?/*
> *//*
> */You Fart like you would not believe. Just hope its dry./*
Yeah, that was the worst thing about taking off your mask in the
hypobaric chamber to experience the effects of hypoxia. Everyone had
farted their asses off and the chamber stunk big time.
BTW, if you haven't taken a 'chamber ride' you should. Seeing what it is
like to experience pressure breathing O2 at 42,000' and hypoxia at
25,000' is good experience.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
Pappy,
My older captains taught me to never count on a dry fart after 50 years old. I
believe they were right. Although, you understand, I can' t confirm that. :)
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound)
Do you know the first sign of rapid decompression?
You Fart like you would not believe. Just hope its dry.
Pappy
Message 29
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| Subject: | More Decompression Sickening sickness. |
Bian wrote, it is the rate of ascent that influences the incidence of Decompression
Sickness (DCS).
Although true to an extent I have to disagree. Certainly a rapid decompression
at or above FL 250 has an increased risk of developing DCS. It is the gradual
lose of cabin pressure over time that has an increased incidence also. As are
repeated exposures to altitude to name a few.
The predisposing factors to the developement of DCS are as follows from taken directly
from the textbook Fundementals of Aerospace Medicine , pp 137-140.
"Altitude Attained
No reliable evidence exists for the occurence of DCS with altitude exposures of
less the 5486 m unless there was a recent (within 24 hours) previous exposure
to compressed gas breathing (eg., scuba diving). With increasing altitude, the
incidence of decompression sickness increases, as does the ratio of severe to
mild cases. Exposures to altitudes of 7925 to 14,478 m for times from approximately
30 minutes to 3 hours will result in a 1.5% incidence of decompression
sickness. The severity of the cases will increase with increasing altitude.
In a review of 145 cases of altitude-induced decompression sickness necessitating
treatment, Davis and colleagues reported that 13% of the cases occurred with
altitude exposres of 7620 m or below and 79% occurred with exposures of 9144
m or greater.
Duration of Exposure
At all altitudes above 5486 m, the longer the duration of exposure, the greater
the incidence of decompression sickness.
Temperature
No correlation exists between the frequency of decompression sicness thd the ambient
tempperature in the range of 21.1 to 24.3 deg.C. At an ambient temperature
of -23.3 deg C, however, the incidence of decompression sickness is twice
that at 21.1 deg.C, with a larger ratio of serious cases to mild cases.
Previous Exposure to Altitude
A second exposure to an altitude greater han 5486 m following an exposure to such
an altitude in the preceeding 3 hours will greatly increase the chance of DCS
occurring, even if the first exposure was asymptomatic. A recurrence of symptoms
is almost certain if the first exposure is symptomatic.
A 2-hour exposure to an altitude of 7622 m followed in 18 hours by a rapid decompression
from 2439 m to 6707 m will result in detectable Doppler bubble signals
over the pulmonary artery. In addition, the incidence of DCS following the
rapid decompression will be twice that following the intial altitude exposure.
Repeated daily exposure to altitude have been reported as increasing susceptibility.
Interestingly the incidence of DCS in inside observers undergoing two to
three altitude exposures per week accompanying students in altitude chamber
training was three times greater than the incidence in students.
Flying Following Diving
If an individual breathes a gas at pressures greater than sea level before altitude
exposure, his susceptibility to DCS will significantly increase. Altitude
DCS has occured at altitudes as low as 1372 m several hours following scuba diving.
Any exposure to compressed gas breathing occurring within 24 hours of altitude
exposure will increase the chance of altitude DCS.
AGE
A striking increase in the incidence of DCS occures with increasing age. This increase
occures with an increase incidence between the 19 to 25 year old and
40 to45 year old age groups. The mechanism is not understood but may result from
changes in circulation due to aging.
SEX
A great deal of conroversy exist regarding the posible differences in susceptibility
to DCS between men and women. The scientific resolution of this question
has been hampered by emotionl and political factors and unfortunately no valid
studies have been done.
Exercise
The association between physical exertion and DCS has been well established. The
effect of exercise on the incidence of decompression sickness is equivalent
to increasing the exposure altitude from 915 m to 1524 m.
Injury
No convincing evidence exist to associate previous injury with DCS. Based on theoretical
considerations, however, is is now thought that an acute injury to a
joint has increased susceptibilty to the "bends" because of perfusional changes
associated with the injury and/or healing mechanisms.
Body Build
For a long time, a basic tenet of diving and aerospace medicine has been that obesity
increases the susceptiblity to DCS. Although it seems prudent to continue
to accept this principle because of other known adverse effects of obesity,
no scientific validation exists.
Other Factors
No definitive results have come from investigations of possible correlations between
DCS and such factors as physical fitness, hypoxia , diet, and fluid intake."
And those are the predisposing factors to DCS as textually stated to date. If you
are planning on flying your unpressurized spam can at altitudes > Fl 180 and
you are fat, between the ages of 19 to 25 or 40 to 45, its cold as hell outside,
you have had a previous flight to FL 180 or greater in the past 3 hours,
have exercised heavily, been scuba diving in the past 24 hours, injured a joint
receintly, and been at altitude for 30 min or longer...You are risk for DCS.
Guess some days Shit just happens. Like I tell my personal injury lawyer friends
(used quite loosely), "Life is Hazardous to your health"! But if you are in
that catagory above an ugly too, you are just SOL. Make your reservation at
Pensacola or Brooks now for personal recompression chamber ride.
Draw your own conclusions.
Doc
Roger "Doc" Kemp
viperdoc@mindspring.com
Aint no sound like a Radial
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
There are no dry farts over age 55. Just old farts.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Lewis
Sent: 1/18/2006 5:35:41 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound)
Pappy,
My older captains taught me to never count on a dry fart after 50 years old. I
believe they were right. Although, you understand, I can' t confirm that. :)
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound)
Do you know the first sign of rapid decompression?
You Fart like you would not believe. Just hope its dry.
Pappy
Message 31
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| Subject: | Soviet Air Patches |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
A friend of mine vacationed in the Czech Republic last year and
brought back for me a souvenir, a Russian military hat with an
abundabce of weird pins celebrating everything from the Great Wheat
Harvest to National Construction week. Anyway, the hat also came with
3 patches which have a prop and wings logo. I'm keeping one, and I'd
like to give away the other 2 to some lucky Yak driver, since they
have no significant value to a CJ driver..
I will donate the extra 2 patches to the AYS event if someone can come
up with some sort of contest or raffle so they may be won.
Ernie
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: decompression sickness and narcosis (was: AYS-bound) |
In a message dated 1/18/2006 3:29:43 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erniel29@gmail.com writes:
>>>Nitrogen Narcosis is from the increased nitrogen in solution disrupting the
electrical potential transfer across the pre and post synaptic cleft of the
CNS. This most likely being in the Reticular Activating system and the
Cortical mantle. It follows the Meyer-Overton hypothesis that states "all
gaseous or volatile substances induce narcosis if they penetrate the lipids
of the cell wall in a definate molar concentraion that is characaristic for
each type of animal tissue aand approximately the same for all narcotics."
That is measured by the mean alveolar concentration (MAC) of the anesthetic
agent. The measure of an anesthetic concentration of an inert gas is the
concentration of the gas at which only 50% of rats will respond to pinching
their tail with a ring forcep. The so called MAC 50.
>>>
Also, the fernaderstand coupling to the finnigan motor spignads, will
de-cobobulate when administered in the presence of sinous friggle
dangle near the copious osmobrosis, causing increased cluster bumpkins
over the entire swaggle noodlefrapses region..
Ernie
Viperdoc-
Well, I appreciated it anyway... buy you didn't talk about Argon and Neon
as anesthetics at high pp...
JSL
(another anesthesiologist-pilot)
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: More Decompression Sickening sickness. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Kemp wrote:
> Bian wrote, it is the rate of ascent that influences the incidence of
> Decompression Sickness (DCS).
> Although true to an extent I have to disagree.
Uh, it certainly has an effect when ascending from diving. Why would it
be different when flying?
> Certainly a rapid
> decompression at or above FL 250 has an increased risk of developing
> DCS. It is the gradual lose of cabin pressure over time that has an
> increased incidence also. As are repeated exposures to altitude to name
> a few.
I don't have the stats so I can't argue with you other than to say that
the primary problem is dissolved N2. With time at a lower ambient
pressure and partial pressure of N2 the body will reach a new
equilibrium and decompression sickness becomes far less likely.
But you are going to have to test with subjects that live at a higher
altitude most of the time. In the US you can find people living near
8000' much of the time. They could be a statistically valid sample. You
can also find people regularly living above 12,000' in the Andes. I
wonder if we could get a grant for this.
> The predisposing factors to the developement of DCS are as follows from
> taken directly from the textbook _Fundementals of Aerospace Medicine_ ,
> pp 137-140.
> _"_*Altitude Attained*
> No reliable evidence exists for the occurence of DCS with altitude
> exposures of less the 5486 m unless there was a recent (within 24 hours)
> previous exposure to compressed gas breathing (eg., scuba diving). With
> increasing altitude, the incidence of decompression sickness increases,
> as does the ratio of severe to mild cases. Exposures to altitudes of
> 7925 to 14,478 m for times from approximately 30 minutes to 3 hours will
> result in a 1.5% incidence of decompression sickness. The severity of
> the cases will increase with increasing altitude.
OK, 5486M is actually 18000 feet. At least we know what units they were
using when they did the initial studies. 7925M is 26,000'. 14,478M is
47,500'. That is above the limit for pressure breathing O2. They sure as
heck aren't talking about sustained time up there.
So they are talking about ambient pressure altitude of 26,000' and
above. I don't think this qualifies as much of a threat to any of us in
our CJs and Yak-52s, even nuts like me who like to fly high and suck on O2.
> In a review of 145 cases of altitude-induced decompression sickness
> necessitating treatment, Davis and colleagues reported that 13% of the
> cases occurred with altitude exposres of 7620 m or below and 79%
> occurred with exposures of 9144 m or greater.
You know, probably the greatest exposure to this low-pressure
environment comes form hypobaric chamber rides. I would bet that they
get a lot of info from there.
> Repeated daily exposure to altitude have been reported as increasing
> susceptibility. Interestingly the incidence of DCS in inside observers
> undergoing two to three altitude exposures per week accompanying
> students in altitude chamber training was three times greater than the
> incidence in students.
Ah, I see they beat me to it.
> *Flying Following Diving*
> If an individual breathes a gas at pressures greater than sea level
> before altitude exposure, his susceptibility to DCS will significantly
> increase. Altitude DCS has occured at altitudes as low as 1372 m several
> hours following scuba diving. Any exposure to compressed gas breathing
> occurring within 24 hours of altitude exposure will increase the chance
> of altitude DCS.
Yeah. This is why I don't take divers flying until the next day.
> *AGE*
> A striking increase in the incidence of DCS occures with increasing age.
> This increase occures with an increase incidence between the 19 to 25
> year old and 40 to45 year old age groups. The mechanism is not
> understood but may result from changes in circulation due to aging.
Shoot.
> *SEX*
> A great deal of conroversy exist regarding the posible differences in
> susceptibility to DCS between men and women. The scientific resolution
> of this question has been hampered by emotionl and political factors and
> unfortunately no valid studies have been done.
I volunteer! I will go have repeated sex with women in the hypobaric
chamber to see if it increases my or their susceptibility to DCS! Yes! I
am prepared to make this supreme sacrifice in the name of science!
This is a way for RPA to provide a service to our fellow airmen (and
women)! How many of you will volunteer with me to collect the necessary
data?
> *Exercise*
> The association between physical exertion and DCS has been well
> established. The effect of exercise on the incidence of decompression
> sickness is equivalent to increasing the exposure altitude from 915 m to
> 1524 m.
> *Injury*
> No convincing evidence exist to associate previous injury with DCS.
> Based on theoretical considerations, however, is is now thought that an
> acute injury to a joint has increased susceptibilty to the "bends"
> because of perfusional changes associated with the injury and/or healing
> mechanisms.
> *Body Build*
> For a long time, a basic tenet of diving and aerospace medicine has been
> that obesity increases the susceptiblity to DCS. Although it seems
> prudent to continue to accept this principle because of other known
> adverse effects of obesity, no scientific validation exists.
> *Other Factors*
> No definitive results have come from investigations of possible
> correlations between DCS and such factors as physical fitness, hypoxia ,
> diet, and fluid intake."
>
> And those are the predisposing factors to DCS as textually stated to
> date. If you are planning on flying your unpressurized spam can at
> altitudes > Fl 180 and you are fat, between the ages of 19 to 25 or 40
> to 45, its cold as hell outside, you have had a previous flight to FL
> 180 or greater in the past 3 hours, have exercised heavily, been scuba
> diving in the past 24 hours, injured a joint receintly, and been at
> altitude for 30 min or longer...You are risk for DCS. Guess some days
> Shit just happens.
That is a lot of shit dude!
> Like I tell my personal injury lawyer friends (used
> quite loosely), "Life is Hazardous to your health"! But if you are in
> that catagory above an ugly too, you are just SOL.
I bet the ugly part makes it more difficult to get partners for testing
for increased incidence of DCS when having sex at altitude. This is
likely to result in a lower incidence of DCS in ugly men and women.
> Make your reservation
> at Pensacola or Brooks now for personal recompression chamber ride.
> Draw your own conclusions.
It has been a long time since I have gotten a chamber ride. Do you know
if they have a chamber at Beale (given the U-2 wing there I bet they
have one) and, if so, whether they give civilians a ride?
> Doc
>
> Roger "Doc" Kemp
> viperdoc@mindspring.com <mailto:viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> Aint no sound like a Radial
>
>
>
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 34
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Robert Starnes <a35plt@yahoo.com>
When the ViperDoc and Brain get done whizzing all over
each other's shoes I would like some info as to who I
can contact to get a chamber ride.
Sure I'm not the only one wondering this... BTW
sounds like if you fly a jet this should almost be
mandatory.
-Robert Starnes
Message 35
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Cc: viperdoc@mindspring.com
| Subject: | Re: More Decompression Sickening sickness. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Brian wrote,
> It has been a long time since I have gotten a chamber ride. Do you know
> if they have a chamber at Beale (given the U-2 wing there I bet they
> have one) and, if so, whether they give civilians a ride?
Brian,
My last chamber ride was at Tyndall, in Panama City, Fl.
The last I knew Beale still had a hyperbaric chamber for support.
They do fly civilians in the AF hypobaric chambers by appointment.
Tomorrow, I will check with Brooks to see where a chamber is close to you.
Doc
Message 36
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Robert,
You are in ATL correct? Tyndal and Shaw are the two closest AF hypobaric
chambers to ATL.
Between cases tomorrow, I will try to see what it will take to grt you a
ride.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Robert Starnes <a35plt@yahoo.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 1/18/2006 8:05:30 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: More sickness.
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Robert Starnes <a35plt@yahoo.com>
>
> When the ViperDoc and Brain get done whizzing all over
> each other's shoes I would like some info as to who I
> can contact to get a chamber ride.
> Sure I'm not the only one wondering this... BTW
> sounds like if you fly a jet this should almost be
> mandatory.
> -Robert Starnes
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: FAA & Warbirds |
The Van Nuys FSDO was present and directly supervising the inspection,
repairs, the approved test/ferry flight, and the ensuing ferry flight to OSH.
They
did in fact sign for these events. From and operations standpoint, our FAA
Program Designee (the equivalent of a Principal Operations Inspector of POI for
you airline guys) who sits in on our ground schools, takes his own and rides
on our checkrides, also approved the flight.
It is also worth noting that some of our tireless volunteers drove across the
country with 4 rebuilt Wright 1820's (not the engines that had the sudden
stoppage) and props that were hung on the airplane before it moved again under
its own power.
Mike Hastings
PS Make it a Bud Light!
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Best regs in the world |
In a message dated 1/17/2006 7:53:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
wlannon@cablerocket.com writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@cablerocket.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Best regs in the world
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <L39parts@hotmail.com>
> Daytime, no overwater, VFR, right?
Ron;
There are a whole bunch of restrictions that CAN be imposed since these are
non type certificated aircraft. The Mig 21 I am sure would have most of them
attached to the airworthiness certificate. In the case of the CJ the only
one I have seen attached is the provision for no operation in foreign
airspace without the authorization of the foreign authority. So if we go
south we do have to send a FAX to the FAA.
Night operation is OK provided the aircraft is properly equipped.
IFR which apparently was initially restricted is also OK providing equipment
meets IFR requirements. No different than type certified for both night &
IFR and of course the same maintenance standards apply. Can you operate IFR
in the US without altimeter, encoder etc. calibration and certification? I
doubt it.
Overwater?? Not even mentioned in the restriction list.
Walt
Only a fax to the FAA?? When I went to Canada it was several phone calls and
$100.00
Canadian! To get approval to take my CJ into Canada. Although I must say
that dealing
with the Canadian FAA i.e. Transport Canada was a very good experience. All
of the people
I dealt with were very helpful, they returned all phone calls and I felt
that they really wanted
to help me get the paper work done so I could attend some airshows in
Canada.
Tom & Nora Elliott
CASCADE WARBIRDS
CJ-6A NX63727
777 Quartz Ave # 7004
Sandy Valley NV 89019
Home 702-723-1223
Fax 702-723-1243
Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
Message 39
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Robert Starnes <a35plt@yahoo.com>
thanks doc it's something i've always wanted to do.
-robert s
--- Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp"
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Robert,
> You are in ATL correct? Tyndal and Shaw are the two
> closest AF hypobaric
> chambers to ATL.
> Between cases tomorrow, I will try to see what it
> will take to grt you a
> ride.
> Doc
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Robert Starnes <a35plt@yahoo.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Date: 1/18/2006 8:05:30 PM
> > Subject: Yak-List: More sickness.
> >
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: Robert Starnes
> <a35plt@yahoo.com>
> >
> > When the ViperDoc and Brain get done whizzing all
> over
> > each other's shoes I would like some info as to
> who I
> > can contact to get a chamber ride.
> > Sure I'm not the only one wondering this... BTW
> > sounds like if you fly a jet this should almost be
> > mandatory.
> > -Robert Starnes
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> protection around
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
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Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: FAA & Warbirds |
Mike,
A Bud Light?! You gotta go for a stouter Lager than that if Pappy is buying!
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/18/2006 9:29:15 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: FAA & Warbirds
The Van Nuys FSDO was present and directly supervising the inspection, repairs,
the approved test/ferry flight, and the ensuing ferry flight to OSH. They did
in fact sign for these events. From and operations standpoint, our FAA Program
Designee (the equivalent of a Principal Operations Inspector of POI for you
airline guys) who sits in on our ground schools, takes his own and rides on
our checkrides, also approved the flight.
It is also worth noting that some of our tireless volunteers drove across the country
with 4 rebuilt Wright 1820's (not the engines that had the sudden stoppage)
and props that were hung on the airplane before it moved again under its
own power.
Mike Hastings
PS Make it a Bud Light!
Message 41
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Sorenson <marksorenson@sprintpcs.com>
For those of you who are still wondering where exactly this Fly-in is at on March
4th near Atlanta. Here is a good site that will show you. In the mean time
if are flying by the area, please do a fly by. 122.85 is CTAF And anything
lesss than 180kts is not a Fly-By. ;o) That our rule here.
Big T (64GA) http://skyvector.com/airport/64GA/Big-T--Airport
------------------
Best Regards,
Mark-
678-GO-FLY-HI
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