---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/18/06: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - New Nomex Flt Suits (Roger Kemp) 2. 05:32 AM - Inverted Spins in the YAK=52 (Roger Kemp) 3. 05:40 AM - Re: Horizon and Clock in the Yak 52 (Rob Rowe) 4. 05:47 AM - Deep breaths everybody.... (Tim Gagnon) 5. 12:22 PM - Re: Inverted Spins in the YAK=52 (Scooter) 6. 01:53 PM - Re: Flight suits, again..... (Ron Davis) 7. 02:33 PM - The best use for flight suits (Jorgen Nielsen) 8. 02:56 PM - IMPORTANT! CJ Weight and Balance calculator (DaBear) 9. 02:59 PM - Re: compensation (forrest johnson) 10. 03:05 PM - Re: The best use for flight suits (PeteAbbott@aol.com) 11. 03:09 PM - There is no level like low level (Tim Gagnon) 12. 03:11 PM - Re: compensation (Stephen Fox) 13. 03:20 PM - Re: CJ6 Weight and Balance Numbers clamav-milter version 0.80j on raptor.cscweb.net (DaBear) 14. 03:22 PM - Re: compensation (ByronMFox@aol.com) 15. 04:42 PM - Re: compensation (Frank Haertlein) 16. 04:58 PM - Re: compensation (Brian Lloyd) 17. 05:00 PM - Re: compensation (Brian Lloyd) 18. 05:00 PM - compensation issue, my second last try. (doug sapp) 19. 05:04 PM - Re: compensation (Brian Lloyd) 20. 05:18 PM - Re: compensation issue, my second last try. (Ernest Martinez) 21. 05:50 PM - Re: compensation issue, my second last try. (Frank Haertlein) 22. 05:52 PM - Loobying to change airshow compensation rules. (ByronMFox@aol.com) 23. 06:12 PM - Re: Loobying to change airshow compensation rules. (Roger Kemp) 24. 06:16 PM - Re: compensation issue, my second last try. (Brian Lloyd) 25. 06:55 PM - Re: compensation issue, my second last try. (Jon Boede) 26. 07:29 PM - Re: compensation issue, my second last try. (A. Dennis Savarese) 27. 07:29 PM - Re: compensation issue, my second last try. (Steve & Donna Hanshew) 28. 08:05 PM - Re: compensation issue, my second last try. (Samuel Sax) 29. 08:48 PM - Degradattion (Ernest Martinez) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:45 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: Yak-List: New Nomex Flt Suits For those looking for new nomex flt suits in sizes for the full figured aviator...try www.BDU.com. They go as large a 50 long for $129.00. Just remember to not wash the suit in fabric softener, wear cotton underneath, keep it clean from oils, and wear a loose fitting flight suit, It is for flash fire protection mainly as stated before. After all, those faded green almost brown ones you found in the surplus store for a song got there for a reason. They were the ones turned back in for new ones. This subject is officially declared a smoking hole...the HORSE IS DEAD>>>WE CAN'T BEAT IT ANY DEADER! Yeah, I know...Doc you just did! Doc Roger "Doc" Kemp viperdoc@mindspring.com Aint no sound like a Radial ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:39 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: Yak-List: Inverted Spins in the YAK=52 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" Scooter, You asked about power and pitch settings for inverted spins in the 52. Try www.yak-52.com. Click on spins on the website. It has a fairly down and dirty on what to expect. Dennis can also send you the Univ of Tenn study on spin entry and recovery for the YAK-52. My off-list email got bounced back by Dameon...who ever that sick SOB is that lives out there in somewhere electro land. Doc Roger "Doc" Kemp viperdoc@mindspring.com Aint no sound like a Radial ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:07 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Horizon and Clock in the Yak 52 From: "Rob Rowe" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Rob Rowe" [quote="PHCarter(at)AOL.COM"]Scooter ? I have seen two versions of the clock's stop watch: One version has a second sweep on the big dial working for the stopwatch (not the clock) and the sub-dail for the stopwatch counting the minutes with a 30 minute face., the other version has the second hand on the big dial working for the clock and the stopwatch? sub-dial counting minutes with a 30 minute face.? FYI - the two versions are the -1 -1 = second hand operates with clock, stopwatch sub-dial 60 minutes -1M = second hand operates with stopwatch, stopwatch sub-dial 30 minutes Rob R Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=13067#13067 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:08 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Deep breaths everybody.... From: "Tim Gagnon" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" Everybody, push yoursleves away from the keyboard, tilt your head back, close your eyes and take some deep breaths....in....out....in...out..... Let go of the flight suit issue......lets get back to something useful Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=13068#13068 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:04 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Inverted Spins in the YAK=52 From: "Scooter" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" i've done several inverted spins and haven't noticed any bad habits. i'll save the flat spins until i have someone in the back who's flat spin proficient. that or i'll just wear two layers of nomex and go for it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=13144#13144 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:52 PM PST US From: "Ron Davis" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flight suits, again..... If you are flying alone, the FAA doesn't require a chute no matter what manuevers you do. It is written very clearly in the FAR. ----- Original Message ----- From: A. Dennis Savarese To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:05 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flight suits, again..... Aren't the words in 91.307 (c) "no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds- " the key wording as to whether you as the pilot flying solo; 1-must wear a parachute if flying solo and 2- whether or not you can exceed the 60 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch without a parachute? Looking for interpretations here. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Fox To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flight suits, again..... On Feb 16, 2006, at 12:11 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote: If I want to burn in my cockpit should there be a fire or not wear a parachute during formation flight, that is my right to choose. It does NOT affect your ability to fly your own airplane. Ok I really wanted to stay out of this in the hopes it would just go away and die a peaceful death, but like a insidious disease this subject does not seem to want to die. OK here's my question, first forget the RPA, are we sure that that wearing a parachute would not be mandatory by FAR 91.307 paragraph c? I know most times I have been in a form flight, especially in extended trail, we exceed 60 degrees of bank and a nose up or nose down of greater than thirty degrees, which according to the FAA requires you to wear a chute. This doesn't even bring up whether the FAA looks a formation flying as normal flight. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:27 PM PST US From: "Jorgen Nielsen" Subject: Yak-List: The best use for flight suits Donate them to your r/c pals. (radio control, aka model aeroplanes) I saw a bunch of them in a (US) magazine picture, all wearing flight suits with patches as well. There was no text that explained the set-up. Must be monster model aircraft over there, powered by plutonium or warpdrive or something? Glad I live in South Africa, the US seems like a real frightening dangerous place. Jorgen ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:20 PM PST US From: DaBear Subject: Yak-List: IMPORTANT! CJ Weight and Balance calculator If you downloaded and are using the earlier version of my W&B calculator, please delete it. It has an incorrect weight calculation for oil. Please use this one attached. Also, the offer to change the sheet to support your datum/stations is still open. DaBear DaBear wrote: >Here is a version of what I use for W&B in the CJ. Note I use multiple >stations for the baggage compartment because I have an extended >compartment and control where the weight goes across those 3 stations. >If someone needs it modified for their stations, let me know. > >DaBear > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:31 PM PST US From: "forrest johnson" Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation I am pvt. multi eng. inst. over 150 hr form, FAST wing,2500 Pic. The rules call for Com.,2 Class .Does this make me a lesser stick? I dont think so. I would like to sign up for the airshow form. pilots. BUT WHY SHOULD I ? Would sombody please explane the reasoning behind this sort of rationational other than so much POLITICAL B.S. ----- Original Message ----- From: ggg6@att.net To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 10:59 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation Hi Doug, Yes You are correct , If You hold a commerical license, You must also have a current 2nd class medical to be compensated as far as the FAA is concerned... Gary G -------------- Original message from "doug sapp" : -------------- > --> Yak-List message posted by: "doug sapp" > > Am I incorrect in my recollection that it is a commercial AND a second class > medical. Just having a commercial won't get the job done........right or > wrong?? > > Always Yakin, > Doug Sapp > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:50 PM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Wing Over Miami > > > --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest Martinez > > You need a commercial, even if youre not being compsns ated??? > > Ernie > > On 2/13/06, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: > > This next week-end Feb. 17-18-19 is the Wings Over Miami airshow at > Tamiami > > airport. A number of RPA members are members of WOM and usually > participate > > in this show. The WOM usually takes care of fuel used during the show. > > This year because of finances they are unable to provide rooms or > > transportation. It is a 501-3c organization so all expenses are > deductible. > > > > You do not have to be a member of WOM to participate in the airshow, but > > must have a commercial, current second class physical, and current FAST > > card. I'll be going down there mid day on Friday (maybe earlier). > > > > All aircraft are welcome. Sam Sax is the contact down there. > > > > Jim "Pappy" Goolsby > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:56 PM PST US From: PeteAbbott@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: The best use for flight suits Not if you have a flight suit. Pete ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:09 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: There is no level like low level From: "Tim Gagnon" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" http://www.atcbox.com/Downloads/Movi...ow%20Level.wmv Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=13181#13181 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:34 PM PST US From: Stephen Fox Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:59 PM, forrest johnson wrote: > I am pvt. multi eng. inst. over 150 hr form, FAST wing,2500 Pic. > The rules call for Com.,2 Class .Does this make me a lesser stick? > I dont think so. I would like to sign up for the airshow form. > pilots. BUT WHY SHOULD I ? Would sombody please explane the > reasoning behind this sort of rationational other than so much > POLITICAL B.S. The reason is because the air shows will be compensating the REDSTARS. And the FAA does not allow you to take compensation in any form be it fuel, rooms or cash without a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:09 PM PST US From: DaBear Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ6 Weight and Balance Numbers clamav-milter version 0.80j on raptor.cscweb.net Jim, Thanks for all numbers you gave me for W&B last year. Here is a copy of my spreadsheet using your stations/datum. Looking at your numbers, I came to a little more forward AFT CG number than you had. So you may or may not want to use this but I'd like to give you back something for your assistance. But it is up to you. Let me know if you have any questions or feedback. Thanks Dabear ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:46 PM PST US From: ByronMFox@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege. Don't you love semantics? ...Blitz ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:38 PM PST US From: "Frank Haertlein" Subject: RE: Yak-List: compensation Byron Just as food for though......if someone is going to bust my head in or kill my family then don't I have a NATURAL right to defend myself? Isn't it a NATURAL right to protect yourself and your family from those that would do you harm? Well, of course these are NATURAL rights.......few would argue you can't protect yourself. No one has the "privilege" to take these rights away from you. Ask yourself............... "do I think I have a NATURAL right to do the following"? Eat? Sleep? Make a living? Raise your children? Teach your children as you see fit? Build a roof over your head? Transport yourself? Make clothes? Build an automobile? Play a game of chess? Work in your machine shop? Research new inventions? Help your fellow man? Take a breath of air? Walk? Run? Lift an object? Skate on a lake? Fish for your food? Grow your own food? Cook your own meals? Read books? Speak your mind? Travel? Worship your God? Say a prayer? Live a full life? Do you think you have a right to do these things? Or do you think government GIVES you these rights? Walking, eating, flying, procreation, driving, talking, hunting, fishing, home building are all a NATURAL right! No government entity is "entitled" to GRANT me "privileges" to do these things.......... because they are not privileges......they are NATURAL rights! Frank PS Are you willing to give away your NATURAL rights to government regulation? If so then let's start with your PRIVILEGE to free speech. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:03 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd forrest johnson wrote: > I am pvt. multi eng. inst. over 150 hr form, FAST wing,2500 Pic. The > rules call for Com.,2 Class .Does this make me a lesser stick? I dont > think so. I would like to sign up for the airshow form. pilots. BUT WHY > SHOULD I ? Would sombody please explane the reasoning behind this sort > of rationational other than so much POLITICAL B.S. Having the commercial rating implies a greater level of demonstrated capability but the medical requirement is just 100% BS. They whole medical thing is just so much BS. It tells you that, on the day you got your exam, you were in reasonable health. You could drop dead the next day. Case in point, my father was out flying legally and still playing basketball. He went in for some minor surgery and they discovered something very minor in his ECG. They did further tests and decided to do a triple-bypass. It was 100% successful. He had never suffered a heart attack. So, with the problem with his heart, he was allowed to fly with a valid medical certificate. After the problem was corrected and he was even safer to fly, his medical certificate was revoked. Go figure. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:05 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd ByronMFox@aol.com wrote: > While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely > exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have > no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to > receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an > airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems > the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege. Don't you love > semantics? ...Blitz Of course, that begs the question of the FAA's legitimacy. What gives them the right to grant or not grant "privileges"? More semantics. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:46 PM PST US From: "doug sapp" Subject: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. I am very aware of what the rules say, and of how the FAA currently interprets them. My point was only that this poorly written reg will surly effect us all at some point and I don't think it is in our best interest (as a group) to just roll over without giving it our best shot. Which I might add will cost you nothing. So, if you will give me that small point without further list noise, I would like to see us proceed. I know from our past history as a group we seem to be nearly incapable of coming to a consensus, so I expect this will be a uphill fight even within our own ranks. But I am sure that writing a well worded letter and sending it to the other various other like minded groups which we believe would have an interest, just might give us the numbers we need to effect a change in the verbiage of the reg regarding compensation for static display. The change might be as simple as moving the medical requirements from a second to a third class, or to a pvt and a 3rd class. This is ONLY to accept compensation for the static display of his/her experimental category aircraft. This would not effect performers that fly for hire, again this is JUST to allow compensation for the the static display of the aircraft. And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who plunder the list on a daily basis, most of you have already weighed in saying that I am pissing in the wind, so OK please leave it at that, and now lets try to do something as a group to help our community at large instead of fragmenting the group with further negative comments. In short, if you don't have something constructive to say about this issue just shut the hell up! If we could find even half as much time to devote to this issue as was spent on the list babbling about non productive issues we would be well on the way to getting our thoughts into a form that we could present to the other organizations, and from there to the AOPA and the EAA and hopefully if we could demonstrate the numbers, they would carry the issue to the FAA. I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of the community at large. Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call me at the number below. If I don't get ample reaction to this posting I will drop the idea. Doug Sapp phone 509-826-4610 rvfltd@televar.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ByronMFox@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:22 PM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege. Don't you love semantics? ...Blitz ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:28 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Frank Haertlein wrote: > Byron > Just as food for though......if someone is going to bust my head in or > kill my family then don't I have a NATURAL right to defend myself? What is wrong Frank? I find myself in agreement with you again. BTW, if you go to ARS, I will be happy to fly with you, provide instruction, etc., even if you aren't wearing a flight suit. Maybe we can get a whole cadre of non-flight-suit-wearing pilots to show up at ARS to fly. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:21 PM PST US From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" Doug, I only bother reading posts by a select few people now, otherwise I just hit the delete button based on topic or author. I have given up on this list, hence my absence. I nominate you to draft this letter which I will sign, since your literary prowness is beyond my capabilities. Ernie ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:43 PM PST US From: "Frank Haertlein" Subject: RE: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. Doug I'm on your side. What do you need to proceed? Money?.... You got it! ......Moral support? .....You got it! To the other lurkers......... get off your dead asses and speak out to regain your freedoms! Help Doug in his efforts to promote aviation! Let those who are engaged in profit answer to the rules of the FAA.....in keeping with the spirit of their rules. But those of us who do it for fun shouldn't be hobbled with rules not designed for us. (personally. I despise government regulation.....but I have to live with it or I'll find a gun to my head by some well meaning but short sighted peace officer). For cryin' out loud......let our expenses be covered so it will promote aviation! We aren't making a profit off of this stuff! If you want to make a profit then, hell, get your commercial.....I don't give a rats ass. Look.......If I'm not making a profit, why shouldn't airshow organizers help pay for the costs of our being there? This isn't a business! It's only to help defray individual costs and help make aviation more available to everyone. Jezzus H Krist......don't get me started........ Frank ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:24 PM PST US From: ByronMFox@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: Loobying to change airshow compensation rules. In a message dated 2/18/2006 5:01:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvfltd@televar.com writes: If I don't get ample reaction to this posting I will drop the idea. Lobbying for a change in the FAA's rules with respect to airshow compensation, I can happily support, Doug. ...Blitz ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:19 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Loobying to change airshow compensation rules. Doug, You can add my name to the list also. Doc ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: 2/18/2006 7:57:41 PM Subject: Yak-List: Loobying to change airshow compensation rules. In a message dated 2/18/2006 5:01:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvfltd@televar.com writes: If I don't get ample reaction to this posting I will drop the idea. Lobbying for a change in the FAA's rules with respect to airshow compensation, I can happily support, Doug. ...Blitz ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:30 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:00 PM, doug sapp wrote: > And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who > plunder the list on a daily basis, I am glad to hear you like my posts Doug. > I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this > project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of > the community at large. Why do you need the support of the community at large? If you want to change it, you should try to change it. > Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish > to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because > of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call > me at the number below. If I don't get ample reaction to this > posting I will drop the idea. I will help if I can. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. From: "Jon Boede" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" Unfortunately, the way to change this is to get the issue in front of a federal judge who's of a mind to take a natural law approach to this... a strict constitutionalist and someone who's not so fond of so much government. What does it take to find a judge who's willing to say to the FAA, "Aren't you supposed to be ENCOURAGING flying?" Which means that we'll need both luck and money on our side. Jon > --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:00 PM, doug sapp wrote: > >> And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who >> plunder the list on a daily basis, > > I am glad to hear you like my posts Doug. > >> I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this >> project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of >> the community at large. > > Why do you need the support of the community at large? If you want to > change it, you should try to change it. > >> Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish >> to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because >> of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call >> me at the number below. If I don't get ample reaction to this >> posting I will drop the idea. > > I will help if I can. > > > Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way > brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . > Antoine de Saint-Exupry > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:26 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. Count me in Doug. You have my support. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: doug sapp To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:00 PM Subject: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. I am very aware of what the rules say, and of how the FAA currently interprets them. My point was only that this poorly written reg will surly effect us all at some point and I don't think it is in our best interest (as a group) to just roll over without giving it our best shot. Which I might add will cost you nothing. So, if you will give me that small point without further list noise, I would like to see us proceed. I know from our past history as a group we seem to be nearly incapable of coming to a consensus, so I expect this will be a uphill fight even within our own ranks. But I am sure that writing a well worded letter and sending it to the other various other like minded groups which we believe would have an interest, just might give us the numbers we need to effect a change in the verbiage of the reg regarding compensation for static display. The change might be as simple as moving the medical requirements from a second to a third class, or to a pvt and a 3rd class. This is ONLY to accept compensation for the static display of his/her experimental category aircraft. This would not effect performers that fly for hire, again this is JUST to allow compensation for the the static display of the aircraft. And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who plunder the list on a daily basis, most of you have already weighed in saying that I am pissing in the wind, so OK please leave it at that, and now lets try to do something as a group to help our community at large instead of fragmenting the group with further negative comments. In short, if you don't have something constructive to say about this issue just shut the hell up! If we could find even half as much time to devote to this issue as was spent on the list babbling about non productive issues we would be well on the way to getting our thoughts into a form that we could present to the other organizations, and from there to the AOPA and the EAA and hopefully if we could demonstrate the numbers, they would carry the issue to the FAA. I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of the community at large. Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call me at the number below. If I don't get ample reaction to this posting I will drop the idea. Doug Sapp phone 509-826-4610 rvfltd@televar.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ByronMFox@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:22 PM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege. Don't you love semantics? ...Blitz ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:26 PM PST US From: "Steve & Donna Hanshew" Subject: RE: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. Count me in. I couldn't agree more. I fly in the shows. Sometimes I sit static. This has always been a bone of contention within the warbird community at large. I understand they are protecting their turf, but in many ways it runs up the overall costs of organizations trying to host shows. Most airshows I've been acquainted with over the past two to three years finish 10-15,000 dollars in the red, simply because of the price of the heavy iron associated with pro-shows like "Planes of Fame". Don't get me wrong, it costs a lot of money to get a Hellcat, Corsair, Wildcat, Avenger, and Skyraider on site, but they still charge something like 50K for the whole shebang. You have to sell a lot of tickets to cover that cost plus fuel, cars and hotel. Most small shows can't handle it. I've found that they like the Yak guys cause were cheap and get them a lot of bang for their buck. The overall Gas bill is light and the folks come to see planes flying and we can do that for dollars on the hour. Sadly, most don't know a Yak-52 from a P-47. They come to see planes and hear noise. Conversely, we are the red-headed scum of WOA for that same reason. I can live with it. Sitting static should not require anything more than a straight-up pilots license and you should be comped' gas and oil. If you want to fly in the show and get paid have a commercial, FAST (for formation), fire-retardant wonder bra, lifetime prescription to viagra, and a picture of Hillary glued face up in your seat pan as something that might provoke you to bail out in an emergency. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of doug sapp Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:00 PM Subject: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. I am very aware of what the rules say, and of how the FAA currently interprets them. My point was only that this poorly written reg will surly effect us all at some point and I don't think it is in our best interest (as a group) to just roll over without giving it our best shot. Which I might add will cost you nothing. So, if you will give me that small point without further list noise, I would like to see us proceed. I know from our past history as a group we seem to be nearly incapable of coming to a consensus, so I expect this will be a uphill fight even within our own ranks. But I am sure that writing a well worded letter and sending it to the other various other like minded groups which we believe would have an interest, just might give us the numbers we need to effect a change in the verbiage of the reg regarding compensation for static display. The change might be as simple as moving the medical requirements from a second to a third class, or to a pvt and a 3rd class. This is ONLY to accept compensation for the static display of his/her experimental category aircraft. This would not effect performers that fly for hire, again this is JUST to allow compensation for the the static display of the aircraft. And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who plunder the list on a daily basis, most of you have already weighed in saying that I am pissing in the wind, so OK please leave it at that, and now lets try to do something as a group to help our community at large instead of fragmenting the group with further negative comments. In short, if you don't have something constructive to say about this issue just shut the hell up! If we could find even half as much time to devote to this issue as was spent on the list babbling about non productive issues we would be well on the way to getting our thoughts into a form that we could present to the other organizations, and from there to the AOPA and the EAA and hopefully if we could demonstrate the numbers, they would carry the issue to the FAA. I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of the community at large. Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call me at the number below. If I don't get ample reaction to this posting I will drop the idea. Doug Sapp phone 509-826-4610 rvfltd@televar.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ByronMFox@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege. Don't you love semantics? ...Blitz ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:57 PM PST US From: "Samuel Sax" Subject: RE: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. Same holds true for me, Doug! Sam Sax _____ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:08 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. Count me in Doug. You have my support. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: doug sapp Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:00 PM Subject: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try. I am very aware of what the rules say, and of how the FAA currently interprets them. My point was only that this poorly written reg will surly effect us all at some point and I don't think it is in our best interest (as a group) to just roll over without giving it our best shot. Which I might add will cost you nothing. So, if you will give me that small point without further list noise, I would like to see us proceed. I know from our past history as a group we seem to be nearly incapable of coming to a consensus, so I expect this will be a uphill fight even within our own ranks. But I am sure that writing a well worded letter and sending it to the other various other like minded groups which we believe would have an interest, just might give us the numbers we need to effect a change in the verbiage of the reg regarding compensation for static display. The change might be as simple as moving the medical requirements from a second to a third class, or to a pvt and a 3rd class. This is ONLY to accept compensation for the static display of his/her experimental category aircraft. This would not effect performers that fly for hire, again this is JUST to allow compensation for the the static display of the aircraft. And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who plunder the list on a daily basis, most of you have already weighed in saying that I am pissing in the wind, so OK please leave it at that, and now lets try to do something as a group to help our community at large instead of fragmenting the group with further negative comments. In short, if you don't have something constructive to say about this issue just shut the hell up! If we could find even half as much time to devote to this issue as was spent on the list babbling about non productive issues we would be well on the way to getting our thoughts into a form that we could present to the other organizations, and from there to the AOPA and the EAA and hopefully if we could demonstrate the numbers, they would carry the issue to the FAA. I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of the community at large. Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call me at the number below. If I don't get ample reaction to this posting I will drop the idea. Doug Sapp phone 509-826-4610 rvfltd@televar.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:45 PM PST US From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: Yak-List: Degradattion --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" This list started (way before me) as a great way to exchange info about like kind airplanes. It has degradted into a forum for people who like to hear them self type. I for one have had enough. I thought it would be enough to just filter by sunbject and author, but it has become apparent that this list lacks any substance whatsoever worthy of any attention at all. I feel sorry for the new CJ/Yak owners out there who joined this list to LEARN about their aircraft only to be bombasted by the tirades of a few selfish indiividuals who are more concerned about winning an argument over the overall charter of this list which is to provide a source of information to owners of Yaks and CJ type airplanes. Megabytes of disk space have been wasted by the selfish few who insist on planting their view of the world upon the rest of us. Brian, I suggest you resign from RPA, Its obviously not for you. While you;re at it get off this list, you're pretty much ruined for me. You dont even own a Red star airplane, go somewhere else. If anyone agrees that this should be an upbeat forum about our airplanes, I want to see a show of hands,......If you want to see more of this worthless banter then let us know. As far as I'm concerned I'm sick of this shit! Ernie