Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:55 AM - Air.....in an emergency. (Tim Gagnon)
2. 07:18 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Hans Oortman)
3. 07:21 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 07:26 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 07:37 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (the wades)
6. 07:53 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Jim Bernier)
7. 08:13 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (the wades)
8. 08:15 AM - Re: ADF Radio Compass (the wades)
9. 08:25 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Brian Lloyd)
10. 08:50 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (A. Dennis Savarese)
11. 09:08 AM - Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
12. 10:30 AM - TO ALL SUN-n-FUN Pilots (David McGirt)
13. 11:24 AM - Re: TO ALL SUN-n-FUN Pilots (forrest johnson)
14. 11:32 AM - Re: ADF Radio Compass (Tim Gagnon)
15. 11:47 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
16. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
17. 12:23 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
18. 12:26 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Sarah Tobin)
19. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
20. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Roger Kemp)
21. 12:42 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Brian Lloyd)
22. 12:43 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Roger Kemp)
23. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Hans Oortman 1)
24. 12:46 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (A. Dennis Savarese)
25. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
26. 02:00 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Mike Bell)
27. 02:09 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Jim Shafer)
28. 03:20 PM - Re: ADF Radio Compass (Tim Gagnon)
29. 03:36 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
30. 03:50 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
31. 03:52 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
32. 04:01 PM - Re: ADF Radio Compass (Tim Gagnon)
33. 04:17 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Marcus Bates)
34. 04:28 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Brian Lloyd)
35. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
36. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
37. 05:03 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (N4829T@aol.com)
38. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (cjpilot710@aol.com)
39. 05:33 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (A. Dennis Savarese)
40. 05:44 PM - Re: ADF Radio Compass (Tim Gagnon)
41. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
42. 05:49 PM - S&F (Terry Lewis)
43. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
44. 06:01 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
45. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
46. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
47. 06:15 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Tim Gagnon)
48. 06:23 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (the wades)
49. 06:34 PM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (DaBear)
50. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: Air.....in an emergency. (DaBear)
51. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
52. 07:22 PM - Re: BFM/ACM (Drew Blahnick)
53. 07:45 PM - Re: TO ALL SUN-n-FUN Pilots (Jwfordham@aol.com)
54. 08:35 PM - Re: Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Roger Kemp)
55. 08:41 PM - Hand Proping - (was Air.....in an emergency.) (Samuel Sax)
56. 08:59 PM - Fun in a CJ (tamara_b@telus.net)
57. 09:06 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Roger Kemp)
58. 11:48 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
59. 11:48 PM - Re: Re: Air.....in an emergency. (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for gas.
You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and not the
band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO uses to fill tires
with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok to use just enough
to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547
Message 2
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| Subject: | Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Hans Oortman" <pa3arw@euronet.nl>
If the fbo uses pneumatic tools then the air must be dry to avoid damage to
his tools so then it would be possible. BUT: I don't think it is because
pneumatic tools can only cope with a max. of 10 bars and that is way off the
minimum needed 25 bars.
Further: I assume that a fbo doesn't have at least 25 bars (preferably 50)
available in his compressor tank for tires. If he would have a tank of that
kind he would probably have a lot more than the 50 bars (more like 200bars)
you need, and if that would be the case it is most probably dried air. So
with a reducer you could carefully fill your tank...assuming you have the
right hoses.....so....why not ask the fire brigade for one of their air
bottles??
Hans
Dutch Yak Pilot
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Tim Gagnon
Verzonden: dinsdag 11 april 2006 15:52
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and
not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO uses
to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok to
use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
The answer is yes. The compressor on you engine will put in as much
moisture as that air tank. The "snot valve" does not remove all the moisture
from
the compressor air, nor does the filter and neither does the drain on the
belly. JUST DO NOT USE PURE QXYGEN.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and not
the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO uses to
fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok to use
just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Tim,
A compressor used to fill tires typically will only go to about 120 PSI
which will not be enough to air start the engine. You will need about 20-25
Atmospheres to air start the engine, which is 300 PSI +. I wouldn't waste
my time with a low pressure compressor. What I would try with no
guarantees it will start (but it will rotate) is use the FBO's nitrogen
bottle if you have a Schrader valve adapter for your external air fill port.
I put Schrader valve fittings on all my airplanes.
Lastly, you can hand prop the airplane making sure the airplane is tied down
and chocked because you won't have any brakes. Hand prop from behind the
prop on the left side of the cowling. You'll need two people to do it. One
to pull the prop down and the Yak knowledgeable person on the inside
starting the airplane the same way he would if there were air in the tank.
The person pulling the prop is acting like the air start.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
> Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
> gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and
> not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO
> uses to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be
> ok to use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
>
> I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
>
> Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net>
Should that scenario happen to me I would tie the plane down (no brakes)
chock it and prop it, I've prop started my plane by myself and fellow Yakers
also. It's also highly advised to have some one competent in the cockpit and
at the prop. The better question is why did all the air leak out, that's a
really big air leak
Bill Wade
N4450Y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
> Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and
not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO uses
to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok to
use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
>
> I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
>
> Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of sparks?
Explain why or not.
Jim B
>>> wade154@frontiernet.net 04/11/06 9:36 AM >>>
--> Yak-List message posted by: "the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net>
Should that scenario happen to me I would tie the plane down (no brakes)
chock it and prop it, I've prop started my plane by myself and fellow Yakers
also. It's also highly advised to have some one competent in the cockpit and
at the prop. The better question is why did all the air leak out, that's a
really big air leak
Bill Wade
N4450Y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
> Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and
not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO uses
to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok to
use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
>
> I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
>
> Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net>
It depends on that particular airplanes mags if they produce a strong spark
at the turn of the prop. The shower is not controlled by the mag its
controlled by the battery and is continuous as long as the start button is
pressed. BUT BE ADVISED THAT IF YOU HIT THE START BUTTON IT COULD START WITH
JUST THE GAS IN THE CYLINDERS and if there is a guy holding the prop ready
to pull he may get caught off guard and swept up in the moment NOT ADVISED,
but does aid in starting with weak mags.
Bill Wade
N4450Y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
>
> Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of
sparks? Explain why or not.
> Jim B
>
> >>> wade154@frontiernet.net 04/11/06 9:36 AM >>>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net>
>
> Should that scenario happen to me I would tie the plane down (no brakes)
> chock it and prop it, I've prop started my plane by myself and fellow
Yakers
> also. It's also highly advised to have some one competent in the cockpit
and
> at the prop. The better question is why did all the air leak out, that's a
> really big air leak
>
> Bill Wade
> N4450Y
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:51 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> >
> > Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped
for
> gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and
> not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO
uses
> to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok
to
> use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
> >
> > I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
> >
> > Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
Better yet can a portable or panel mount GPS turn the needle in the HSI-gyro compass?
----- Original Message -----
From: PHCarter@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:08 PM
Subject: Yak-List: ADF Radio Compass
Is it possible, and does anyone know how, to connected a western ADF to the Gyro
compass in the Yak-52?
Preston
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Jim Bernier wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
>
> Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of sparks?
Explain why or not.
Why? Because it won't start if you don't. When you turn the engine by
hand it is moving far too slowly for the mags to actually generate
enough voltage for a spark. The boost coil is actually powered by the
battery and produces full output.
If you have carefully primed the engine (prime and pull through) and you
have positioned one cylinder just past TDC, hitting the start button may
actually start the engine without any air as the mixture in that one
cylinder ignites and turns the engine over enough to get to the next
cylinder's firing point.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Yes, of course. Push the start button just prior to pulling the prop.
Remember the person pulling the prop is now the air start. So try starting
it exactly the same as if you did have air in the tank.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
>
> Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of
> sparks? Explain why or not.
> Jim B
>
>>>> wade154@frontiernet.net 04/11/06 9:36 AM >>>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net>
>
> Should that scenario happen to me I would tie the plane down (no brakes)
> chock it and prop it, I've prop started my plane by myself and fellow
> Yakers
> also. It's also highly advised to have some one competent in the cockpit
> and
> at the prop. The better question is why did all the air leak out, that's a
> really big air leak
>
> Bill Wade
> N4450Y
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:51 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>>
>> Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
> gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and
> not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO
> uses
> to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok
> to
> use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?
>>
>> I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious.
>>
>> Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
the wades wrote:
> Better yet can a portable or panel mount GPS turn the needle in the
> HSI-gyro compass?
In most of the western world the instruments have electrical interfaces
that adhere to standards set forth by ARINC. Most older instruments that
have a 360 degree heading indication are driven by a five-wire AC
synchro resolver signal running at about 26VAC. (There is an ARINC
number but I forget what it is.) If the Russians adhered to that
standard then you should be able to drive the Russian indicator from a
good ADF with a synchro resolver output. The King KR-87 comes to mind here.
Most electromechanical HSI indicators use the aforementioned synchro
resolver signal to provide heading indication. A GPS will output digital
heading data either in the form of NMEA-0183 (marine standard) or
ARINC-429 (aviation standard), neither of which an older HSI
understands. If you have a newer electronic HSI it *may* understand
ARINC-429 heading data.
BTW, if you are doing a new panel it makes a lot of sense (and a lot
less wire and complexity to boot) to go with ARINC-429 wiring for
heading (and other) data but you can't use older instruments. OTOH,
instead of the HSI needing a minimum of about 15 wires to operate,
ARINC-429 can do it all with only two wires because all the signals;
i.e. CDI, VDI, to/from flag, GS flag, and heading; are multiplexed.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 12
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| Subject: | TO ALL SUN-n-FUN Pilots |
Please email me off list with your address, so I can send you a DVD with all
of the collective pictures and videos..
PLEASE let me know if you do NOT have a DVD Reader on your computer.. if you
do not, I will see about burning the pictures to a bunch of CD's , please
check, as that will be a royal pain in the ass. as there is ~ 3.3GB of
pics.. or 6 CD's vs. 1 DVD
Thanks
David
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: TO ALL SUN-n-FUN Pilots |
Forrest Johnson
7520 Hewitt
Ft. Worth Tx 76180
Please send disc , I don't have a dvd on my computer. Thanks a lot. I sure enjoyed
flying with you and appreciate you providing your motor home.----- Original
Message -----
From: David McGirt
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 12:28 PM
Subject: Yak-List: TO ALL SUN-n-FUN Pilots
Please email me off list with your address, so I can send you a DVD with all
of the collective pictures and videos..
PLEASE let me know if you do NOT have a DVD Reader on your computer.. if you
do not, I will see about burning the pictures to a bunch of CD's , please check,
as that will be a royal pain in the ass. as there is ~ 3.3GB of pics.. or 6
CD's vs. 1 DVD
Thanks
David
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
It is my understanding that most NDB's are no longer being monitored or maintained.
(Other than those that serve as LOM).
My airline does not even train or allow us to shoot NDB approaches. If I had to
do one..well...it would be ugly.
I agree that the GPS would be the cheaper and more accurate way to go. Only draw
back, you cannot listen to Rush Limbaugh on a GPS!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27624#27624
Message 15
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| Subject: | Air.....in an emergency. |
"the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net> "Bill Wade" said:
>It depends on that particular airplanes mags if they produce a strong spark
>at the turn of the prop. The shower is not controlled by the mag its
>controlled by the battery and is continuous as long as the start button is
>pressed.
>BUT BE ADVISED THAT IF YOU HIT THE START BUTTON IT COULD START WITH
>JUST THE GAS IN THE CYLINDERS and if there is a guy holding the prop ready
>to pull he may get caught off guard and swept up in the moment NOT ADVISED,
>but does aid in starting with weak mags.
With respect, I disagree somewhat with the above advice. Bill makes it
sound like it would be much safer NOT to use the starter button than to use
it. I believe that is a matter of perspective. Having a prop violently jump
backwards when you go to hand prop it can also catch a person off guard and
cause injury.
I'd advise all Yak owners to try this experiment. Turn off the circuit
breaker for the starting system... in fact, if you want... leave the whole
electrical master turned off. Turn on your air. Now... try to start that
engine using your big toe to actuate the air starter valve manual lever
(good practice for when it fails... which it always does sooner or later by
the way) and the mag switch. This little exercise will demonstrate that it
is not always an easy thing to start an M-14 on the Mags alone, and it is
has nothing to do with the Mags being "weak". Instead you need to pop that
Mag cap and check your rotor cap. Does it have two electrical contacts on
the rotor itself? If it does, ... and it more than likely will.... you have
the kind of mag that uses one contact for starting and another for normal
running of the engine. The contact for starting is initiated through the
starting switch from the cockpit and gives the engine RETARDED SPARK TIMING.
This makes the engine much easier to start and prevents it from starting to
fire with normal advanced timing and then immediately trying to turn over
backwards. You may notice this symptom when you try to start on just the
Mags alone. Just remember.... starting normally uses retarded timing.
Starting on the mags alone uses advanced timing.
Thus it is HIGHLY ADVISABLE to use the start button when hand propping an
M-14 engine.
Of course there is the caution that if you do this, you MUST make sure that
there is no air left in the system that might rotate the prop prematurely,
as Bill mentioned... during the hand propping exercise. Do something like
exercising the brakes, or the flaps or whatever... to make sure all the air
is removed from the system ahead of time. Then as the person is ready to
prop the engine, engage the start button. You also want to make sure that
the person propping the airplane knows all about this kind of stuff.
My 2 cents.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
> It is my understanding that most NDB's are no longer being monitored or maintained.
(Other than those that serve as LOM).
True enough. They are going away. But until they do, you can still use them.
> My airline does not even train or allow us to shoot NDB approaches. If I had
to do one..well...it would be ugly.
They turn out to be useful occasionally as I will indicate below.
> I agree that the GPS would be the cheaper and more accurate way to go. Only draw
back, you cannot listen to Rush Limbaugh on a GPS!
Well, I may have posted this here but here goes again. Last year as I
was flying over water from the USVI to Florida my GPS just up and went
away. Nothing. Nada. Fortunately I was able to pick up the NDB at Great
Inagua, my fueling stop. No problem. Track the NDB inbound. (I was able
to pick it up 500nm away even in daylight!) Got fuel and then did
something I haven't done in many years, I tracked it outbound toward
Stella Maris and Nassau figuring I would pick up the VOR at Nassau and
would complete the trip using VOR navigation. The GPS came back around
Stella Maris (about 100nm later) and I was only about 5nm off course. I
can live with that at the end of tracking an NDB bearing outbound.
So, GPS *does* go away and NDB/ADF is still useful in many parts of the
world. I just put a KR-87 in the Aztruck and am happy I did. When all
else fails I can track that AM station broadcast Rush and then find a
place to land.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 17
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| Subject: | Air.....in an emergency. |
Jim Bernier wrote:
>> Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of
sparks? Explain why or not.
Brian Lloyd replied:
>Why? Because it won't start if you don't. When you turn the engine by
>hand it is moving far too slowly for the mags to actually generate
>enough voltage for a spark.
I have personally started an M-14 on just the mags, no boost coil involved,
by both hand and by air starting.
It is not easy, I do not recommend it, but it can be done. As an aside, I
will mention that I am about 6 feet 7 inches tall and weigh in at over 300
pounds, and I can really sling that two bladed prop. But as I also said in
another post, I highly recommend using the starter button and the booster
coil, and thus too, the retarded timing connected to same.
>If you have carefully primed the engine (prime and pull through) and you
>have positioned one cylinder just past TDC, hitting the start button may
>actually start the engine without any air as the mixture in that one
>cylinder ignites and turns the engine over enough to get to the next
>cylinder's firing point.
Highly unlikely on a cold engine. Maybe not impossible, but the odds are
against it enough so that I'm reaching for my wallet!
1. The air and fuel that was compressed during the prop "pull" will leak out
completely by the time you get back into the aircraft and push the button.
Put a differential compression gage on any cylinder and remove the air
source. Watch how quickly the cylinder gage goes to zero. An engine
cylinder with ambient fuel/air mixture does not have enough energy to rotate
the engine even if it did ignite. If the engine was HOT, with rings fully
expanded.... the odds change. Even then I'd say the odds are against it BIG
TIME.
2. You mentioned that you would have to have one cylinder positioned
perfectly just past Top Dead Center. And how would a person go about
determining this? Answer: Without taking something apart... it is not
possible.
I consider the "magic start" to be urban legend... sorry Brian, go ahead and
rip my lips off!
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
P.S. May I please mention that I sat there one day with my buddy in the
cockpit and we pulled that darn prop through one compression stroke after
another, and with zero air, hit that start button about 50 times and that
engine never budged. Not one little inch.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
Well, since this *just* happened to me...ask the mx dudes for Nitrogen. Filled
up the tank and the booger started right up.
Smash
Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon"
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for gas.
You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply is gone.
---------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
I can tell you with confidence that any FAA device that is published for use
in aircraft navigation or approaches is required to be monitored and
maintained, and they indeed are. That said, there is not much to them
really. Just a big ole A.M. transmitter. The only thing that is watched
is:
Power Output,
Percentage of Modulation
Assigned Frequency (has to be smack dead on)
Spurious Products
The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:32 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: ADF Radio Compass
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
It is my understanding that most NDB's are no longer being monitored or
maintained. (Other than those that serve as LOM).
My airline does not even train or allow us to shoot NDB approaches. If I had
to do one..well...it would be ugly.
I agree that the GPS would be the cheaper and more accurate way to go. Only
draw back, you cannot listen to Rush Limbaugh on a GPS!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27624#27624
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Tim,
Obviously you have the wrong GPS unit. You can too listen to Rush Limbaugh
on a GPS! Can you guess which one?
Hint: it is made by Garmin, it is portable (hand held), and also gives you
weather...if you subscribe that is.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/11/2006 1:38:23 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: ADF Radio Compass
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
> It is my understanding that most NDB's are no longer being monitored or
maintained. (Other than those that serve as LOM).
>
> My airline does not even train or allow us to shoot NDB approaches. If I
had to do one..well...it would be ugly.
>
> I agree that the GPS would be the cheaper and more accurate way to go.
Only draw back, you cannot listen to Rush Limbaugh on a GPS!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27624#27624
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> I have personally started an M-14 on just the mags, no boost coil
> involved, by both hand and by air starting.
> It is not easy, I do not recommend it, but it can be done. As an aside,
> I will mention that I am about 6 feet 7 inches tall and weigh in at over
> 300 pounds, and I can really sling that two bladed prop. But as I also
> said in another post, I highly recommend using the starter button and
> the booster coil, and thus too, the retarded timing connected to same.
Wow! You *are* a superman.
> Highly unlikely on a cold engine. Maybe not impossible, but the odds are
> against it enough so that I'm reaching for my wallet!
>
> 1. The air and fuel that was compressed during the prop "pull" will leak
> out completely by the time you get back into the aircraft and push the
> button. Put a differential compression gage on any cylinder and remove
> the air source. Watch how quickly the cylinder gage goes to zero. An
> engine cylinder with ambient fuel/air mixture does not have enough
> energy to rotate the engine even if it did ignite. If the engine was
> HOT, with rings fully expanded.... the odds change. Even then I'd say
> the odds are against it BIG TIME.
>
> 2. You mentioned that you would have to have one cylinder positioned
> perfectly just past Top Dead Center. And how would a person go about
> determining this? Answer: Without taking something apart... it is not
> possible.
>
> I consider the "magic start" to be urban legend... sorry Brian, go ahead
> and rip my lips off!
It worked for me, not once but twice. It surprised the hell out of me
both times too. But that was a Huosai and not an M14P. And I agree that
I wouldn't count on it.
You can feel a cylinder go past TDC on the compression stroke. In my
case I just pulled it past that point.
This is not a life or death thing. And if I bet money on it it wouldn't
work.
You need your lips more than I do. ;-)
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
> P.S. May I please mention that I sat there one day with my buddy in the
> cockpit and we pulled that darn prop through one compression stroke
> after another, and with zero air, hit that start button about 50 times
> and that engine never budged. Not one little inch.
I believe you.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
This discussion has been had before too. The debate of will you be able to start
with N2 only was concluded with you can and you have proven that. As others
have said, just do not use O2 (100%). 21% will work just fine.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Tobin
Sent: 4/11/2006 2:31:58 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Well, since this *just* happened to me...ask the mx dudes for Nitrogen. Filled
up the tank and the booger started right up.
Smash
Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon"
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for gas.
You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply is gone.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
Mark,
I'm still trying to get some 3-500Z tubes for my Heathkit linear...
Hans
Dutch Yak Pilot
PA3ARW
_____
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
Verzonden: dinsdag 11 april 2006 21:31
Aan: 'yak-list@matronics.com'
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Re: ADF Radio Compass
I can tell you with confidence that any FAA device that is published for use
in aircraft navigation or approaches is required to be monitored and
maintained, and they indeed are. That said, there is not much to them
really. Just a big ole A.M. transmitter. The only thing that is watched
is:
Power Output,
Percentage of Modulation
Assigned Frequency (has to be smack dead on)
Spurious Products
The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:32 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: ADF Radio Compass
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
It is my understanding that most NDB's are no longer being monitored or
maintained. (Other than those that serve as LOM).
My airline does not even train or allow us to shoot NDB approaches. If I had
to do one..well...it would be ugly.
I agree that the GPS would be the cheaper and more accurate way to go. Only
draw back, you cannot listen to Rush Limbaugh on a GPS!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27624#27624
browse Subscriptions page, Chat, FAQ,
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
Smash,
Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air left in it? If there
was air in it, how many ATM's. There have been numerous discussions on the
List as to whether the M14P will start on pure nitrogen vs. a mixture of Nitrogen
and breathing air. I really don't want to open up that can of worms again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Tobin
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Well, since this *just* happened to me...ask the mx dudes for Nitrogen. Filled
up the tank and the booger started right up.
Smash
Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon"
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for gas.
You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply is gone.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> I can tell you with confidence that any FAA device that is published for
> use in aircraft navigation or approaches is required to be monitored and
> maintained, and they indeed are. That said, there is not much to them
> really. Just a big ole A.M. transmitter. The only thing that is
> watched is:
>
> Power Output,
> Percentage of Modulation
> Assigned Frequency (has to be smack dead on)
> Spurious Products
>
> The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
> schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
Ummm, ummm. Love them big power tetrodes! I like the 4CX1000 better
tho'. More gain, more compact, and easier to cool.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike Bell" <yakflyr@comcast.net>
I read somewhere (maybe Bud's old Yak newsletter) that you could start on 120 PSI
shop air. While it won't turn the engine against compression, it makes the
prop easy for the hand-propper to move. Sounds scary. If you carry a pony scuba
tank you have some insurance against this scenario.
--------
Mike Bell
Yak 52
Elk Grove, CA
yakflyr@comcastdotnet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27675#27675
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
RE: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.From Deer Valley where the sheer volume of
CJs, Yak-52s, Yak-50s etc etc make it likely that someone will not have enough
air to start from time to time. We have Scuba bottles with the appropriate
fittings scattered around the airport, but Bill Blackwell is available to put
some Okie muscle into starting. (but flabby, 65 year old me can easily prop
a M-14 so you don't need muscle to do it)
After the engine is primed and pulled through with all the proper communication
between propper and pilot, the brakes are set (if there is enough residual air)
or the airplane is chocked and/or tied down.
With the MAGS OFF the puller moves the blade into position for pulling. He counts
to three and pulls. The pilot is readied by the count and AFTER he sees the
prop moving, he hits the start switch. The Start switch is not activated until
AFTER the puller starts pulling. The puller cannot be surprised by a sudden
movement of the prop.
Do not forget that a M-14 can be started by ANY movement of the prop with the shower
of sparks on. Just a nudge, a slight touch is enough sometimes. Even if
you have spent 20 minutes trying to start it and have run out of air. The next
minute movement of the prop might start the engine.
Be careful out there.
EB
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
To: 'yak-list@matronics.com'
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
"the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net> "Bill Wade" said:
>It depends on that particular airplanes mags if they produce a strong spark
>at the turn of the prop. The shower is not controlled by the mag its
>controlled by the battery and is continuous as long as the start button is
>pressed.
>BUT BE ADVISED THAT IF YOU HIT THE START BUTTON IT COULD START WITH
>JUST THE GAS IN THE CYLINDERS and if there is a guy holding the prop ready
>to pull he may get caught off guard and swept up in the moment NOT ADVISED,
>but does aid in starting with weak mags.
With respect, I disagree somewhat with the above advice. Bill makes it sound
like it would be much safer NOT to use the starter button than to use it. I believe
that is a matter of perspective. Having a prop violently jump backwards
when you go to hand prop it can also catch a person off guard and cause injury.
I'd advise all Yak owners to try this experiment. Turn off the circuit breaker
for the starting system... in fact, if you want... leave the whole electrical
master turned off. Turn on your air. Now... try to start that engine using
your big toe to actuate the air starter valve manual lever (good practice for
when it fails... which it always does sooner or later by the way) and the mag
switch. This little exercise will demonstrate that it is not always an easy
thing to start an M-14 on the Mags alone, and it is has nothing to do with the
Mags being "weak". Instead you need to pop that Mag cap and check your rotor
cap. Does it have two electrical contacts on the rotor itself? If it does,
... and it more than likely will.... you have the kind of mag that uses one contact
for starting and another for normal running of the engine. The contact
for starting is initiated through the starting switch from the cockpit and gives
the engine RETARDED SPARK TIMING. This makes the engine much easier to start
and prevents it from starting to fire with normal advanced timing and then
immediately trying to turn over backwards. You may notice this symptom when you
try to start on just the Mags alone. Just remember.... starting normally uses
retarded timing. Starting on the mags alone uses advanced timing.
Thus it is HIGHLY ADVISABLE to use the start button when hand propping an M-14
engine.
Of course there is the caution that if you do this, you MUST make sure that there
is no air left in the system that might rotate the prop prematurely, as Bill
mentioned... during the hand propping exercise. Do something like exercising
the brakes, or the flaps or whatever... to make sure all the air is removed
from the system ahead of time. Then as the person is ready to prop the engine,
engage the start button. You also want to make sure that the person propping
the airplane knows all about this kind of stuff.
My 2 cents.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I may have mis-spoken...they are on thier way out!
FAA plan calls for ILS phaseout starting in 2015
By John Sheridan / March 2006
Released last month, the 2005 Federal Radionavigation Plan (FRP)a joint
production of the DOT, DOD and the Department of Homeland
Securityprovides a useful guide to what air navigation will be like
between now and 2020. Of course, federal crystal balls occasionally can
be cloudy, especially when they peer 14 years into the future.
Nevertheless, since its first publication in 1980, the biennial FRP has
given aviators a reasonable picture of what the future will bring,
provided they accept that nothing that far ahead is cast in concrete.
The basic tenet of the plan is that in the near future the airspace
environment will be satellite-dominated because GPS works well and a
satellite system would allow the federal governmentprimarily the FAAto
gradually divest itself of the heavy financial burden of the thousands
of terrestrial navaids it operates today.
Currently, there are around 1,300 NDBs, 1,050 VORs, 1,025 DMEs and 1,275
ILSes as well as marker beacons spread across the National Airspace
System (NAS), along with an unspecified number of radars, airport ASDEs
and ADS-B stations that dont properly qualify as navaids.
Gradual System Phaseouts
Other government departments also operate navaids in the NAS. The DOD
has several dozen of its own VOR/DMEs, Vortacs and Tacansthe latter two
of which include civil DMEswhile the U.S. Coast Guard runs the nations
29 loran stations.
Insiders expect NDBs will be the first navaids to see cutbacks. Already,
of course, the FAA has withdrawn a large number of NDB procedures, and
the agency will progressively decommission transmitter stations until
all that remain are an unspecified number serving Alaska, offshore areas
such as the Gulf of Mexico and what the FRP describes as international
gateways.
VORs will follow, with a gradual reduction of facilities as GPS/WAAS
and, particularly, LPV procedures become firmly established. But a
minimum operating network of VORsprobably 300 to 400will remain
through 2020, primarily as backups in case of GPS failures or
interference. (Interference doesnt necessarily mean accidental events
or intentional jamming by the nations enemies; under the FRP, the DOD
is allowed to conduct GPS jamming tests in the NAS to counter those
enemies.)
On the other hand, DMEs will gradually increase as low-power units will
be added at several ILS locations, and others will supplement coverage
in certain terminal areas and en route altitudessuggested elsewhere as
being above FL180to provide continuous GPS Rnav backup service.
The phaseout of Category I and localizer-only ILS is scheduled in the
federal radionavigation plan to begin around 2015, coincident with the
expected introduction of the WAAS-based Category I GNSS landing system
(GLS), along with improvements in the GPS satellite constellation.
One ILS will remain at every current ILS-equipped airport for backup
purposes. All Category II and III installations are expected to remain
operational until at least 2020, which may subtly underline the agencys
current uncertainty about the likely introduction date of their
satellite-based replacements.
Many insiders feel that loran, meanwhile, could remain an ideal GPS
backup.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27689#27689
Message 29
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| Subject: | Air.....in an emergency. |
Thanks for being kind....
Mark
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> I have personally started an M-14 on just the mags, no boost coil
> involved, by both hand and by air starting.
> It is not easy, I do not recommend it, but it can be done. As an aside,
> I will mention that I am about 6 feet 7 inches tall and weigh in at over
> 300 pounds, and I can really sling that two bladed prop. But as I also
> said in another post, I highly recommend using the starter button and
> the booster coil, and thus too, the retarded timing connected to same.
Wow! You *are* a superman.
> Highly unlikely on a cold engine. Maybe not impossible, but the odds are
> against it enough so that I'm reaching for my wallet!
>
> 1. The air and fuel that was compressed during the prop "pull" will leak
> out completely by the time you get back into the aircraft and push the
> button. Put a differential compression gage on any cylinder and remove
> the air source. Watch how quickly the cylinder gage goes to zero. An
> engine cylinder with ambient fuel/air mixture does not have enough
> energy to rotate the engine even if it did ignite. If the engine was
> HOT, with rings fully expanded.... the odds change. Even then I'd say
> the odds are against it BIG TIME.
>
> 2. You mentioned that you would have to have one cylinder positioned
> perfectly just past Top Dead Center. And how would a person go about
> determining this? Answer: Without taking something apart... it is not
> possible.
>
> I consider the "magic start" to be urban legend... sorry Brian, go ahead
> and rip my lips off!
It worked for me, not once but twice. It surprised the hell out of me
both times too. But that was a Huosai and not an M14P. And I agree that
I wouldn't count on it.
You can feel a cylinder go past TDC on the compression stroke. In my
case I just pulled it past that point.
This is not a life or death thing. And if I bet money on it it wouldn't
work.
You need your lips more than I do. ;-)
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
> P.S. May I please mention that I sat there one day with my buddy in the
> cockpit and we pulled that darn prop through one compression stroke
> after another, and with zero air, hit that start button about 50 times
> and that engine never budged. Not one little inch.
I believe you.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 30
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| Subject: | Air.....in an emergency. |
Sorry to butt in Dennis, but I have watched this topic being discussed many
times and have always kept my mouth shut... but this time I am adding my 2
cents.
I have personally filled my tank with pure 100% water pumped nitrogen before
I left for deployments where I would not be starting my aircraft for a long
time. I have easy access to nitrogen.
After returning, I started it with the same nitrogen that I filled the
bottle with before I left.
It started, each and every time.
I always believed that the cylinder that the nitrogen was being fed to was
one already on the way down from the compression stroke... as in, already
well past TDC. The NEXT cylinder in the firing order thus was pulling it's
air and fuel in from the intake and had no bottle nitrogen in it at all.
Thus when IT got ready to go over TDC and was fired by the plug, it was in
fact "uncontaminated". .... if it failed to fire, then it too would have
had nitrogen squirted into it. If it DID fire, ....well then the rest is
obvious.
Yes, I realize there is valve overlap on the cam.
Fact is... it has always started for me.
But.. having worked HOURS trying to get the air distributor set perfectly in
an M-14, it dawns on me that many different M-14's could easily have many
different settings on that air distributor. One tooth worth of difference
does not stop the engine from rotating. It MIGHT impact the cylinder
combustible mixture ratio enough to cause different results in different ..
otherwise identical... engines.
Is this a reasonable line of thought do you think?
Mark
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Smash,
Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air left in it? If
there was air in it, how many ATM's. There have been numerous discussions
on the List as to whether the M14P will start on pure nitrogen vs. a mixture
of Nitrogen and breathing air. I really don't want to open up that can of
worms again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah <mailto:aerobaticgirl@yahoo.com> Tobin
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Well, since this *just* happened to me...ask the mx dudes for Nitrogen.
Filled up the tank and the booger started right up.
Smash
Tim Gagnon < NiftyYak50@msn.com <mailto:NiftyYak50@msn.com> > wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon"
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply is
gone.
_____
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman9/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/ev
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
>> The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
>> schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
>Ummm, ummm. Love them big power tetrodes! I like the 4CX1000 better
>tho'. More gain, more compact, and easier to cool.
Yeah, but 4CX-1000's don't glow in the dark, and they have mandatory warm up
times!
:-)
Mark
N50YK
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
brian wrote:
> Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
>
> > I can tell you with confidence that any FAA device that is published for
> > use in aircraft navigation or approaches is required to be monitored and
> > maintained, and they indeed are. That said, there is not much to them
> > really. Just a big ole A.M. transmitter. The only thing that is
> > watched is:
> >
> > Power Output,
> > Percentage of Modulation
> > Assigned Frequency (has to be smack dead on)
> > Spurious Products
> >
> > The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
> > schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
> >
> >
>
> Ummm, ummm. Love them big power tetrodes! I like the 4CX1000 better
> tho'. More gain, more compact, and easier to cool.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
You guys play Dungeons and Dragons don't you? :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27700#27700
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Marcus Bates" <mlbjr@earthlink.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Yes, of course. Push the start button just prior to pulling the prop.
> Remember the person pulling the prop is now the air start. So try
> starting it exactly the same as if you did have air in the tank.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:51 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
>
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jim Bernier" <JBernier@dart.org>
>>
>> Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of
>> sparks? Explain why or not.
>> Jim B
>>
I have hand propped my CJ-6 many times. The mags have just enough spark to
start the engine if pulled through briskly. When another qualified person
is available, hitting the "shower of sparks" (starter button) helps
tremdously because the spark is retarded and the engine will start just like
the air was on..... Marcus Bates, Jr....Austin, Texas
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> But.. having worked HOURS trying to get the air distributor set
> perfectly in an M-14, it dawns on me that many different M-14's could
> easily have many different settings on that air distributor. One tooth
> worth of difference does not stop the engine from rotating. It MIGHT
> impact the cylinder combustible mixture ratio enough to cause different
> results in different .. otherwise identical... engines.
>
> Is this a reasonable line of thought do you think?
Not that my opinion is worth much but I think you are dead, bang,
spot-on, bloody-well right.
>
> Mark
> N50YK
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> >> The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
> >> schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
>
> >Ummm, ummm. Love them big power tetrodes! I like the 4CX1000 better
> >tho'. More gain, more compact, and easier to cool.
>
> Yeah, but 4CX-1000's don't glow in the dark, and they have mandatory
> warm up times!
Ummm, I forgot about that lovely, warm, glow-in-the-dark flavor. And
don't forget the anodes starting to develop that rosy glow when you are
pushing hard on a long RTTY transmission.
OK, never mind.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
>>> The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
>>> schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
>>>
>>>
>> Ummm, ummm. Love them big power tetrodes! I like the 4CX1000 better
>> tho'. More gain, more compact, and easier to cool.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
>> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>
>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
> You guys play Dungeons and Dragons don't you? :D
If it has electrons or avgas running through its veins, I love it.
I guess fantasy suits some people but to me, life, sex, and flying are
not spectator sports.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
I've hand propped my stock 285 CJ quite a few times .... each time I made
sure the air was totally depleted from the system. Used the following
procedure:
1) Used the Check List
2) Made sure the airplane was tied down and chocked ....no air = no brakes
3) Made sure all the air was empty ...exercise the brakes, flaps.
4) Had another Qualified CJ pilot in the cockpit.
5) Primed the engine with the mags in the off position
6) Guy in cockpit follows normal starting procedure and hits the started
button as I hand prop. ......worked fine every time and usually started with
no
more that two attempts
WELL, there was this one time I did all of the above except this time it
coughed, sputtered but did not stay running... I called to the pilot to hit
the starter as I had my hands on the prop but what happened this time got my
attention. When I called for the starter button one of the cylinders fired and
the prop hit the BACK side of my hands.. thank god it didn't fire or I
probably wouldn't be witting this post. When the engine coughed, sputtered and
popped the first time it built up a small amount of air in the system.. well,
it
was just enough to fire one cylinder... so, that being said I changed number
6 (listed above) on my hand prop check list.
6) call out starter, wait until you hear the starter button and then
approach the prop after making sure the their is no air in the system... Have
had
the prop kick over a few times but never with my hands in the way.
Jim "Launch Pad" Plumlee
N31103/CJ-6A
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
Ha yes the "good old days". There I was setting in the dark nav compartment
with my trusty APN-9 glowing it's warmth and the signal of a master and
slave wave from very distant places.
Hmmm What's that smell?
Oh Shit!!! It my trusty APN-9 is on fire!!!!!
My quick pilot/navigator reflexes turns off the trusty APN-9.
Captain: "What's that fucking smell back there?" "APN-9 you say? I told
you the fucker is no good! Don't touch it again! " Under his breath "God damn
navigators, their bound to kill me yet!"
Oh well I still have my nice and warm glowing radar altimeter. Hug - - - Oh
shit!
Captain: "I told you not to touch that damn thing!!!!!"
Me: "Ah Skipper, do you have Gander on the ADF by any chance?"
Captain: "I'm the fucking CAPTAIN idiot and no."
That night the navigation gods were kind to me and put Venus, Polaris and
Betelgeuse in just the right spots, for me to steer by and my spring operated
sextant pass the angles to me though cold soaked in its mount.
"Give me a good ship - filled with micro chips - and a star to steer by.
GPS by God!!!!!!!!!!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
>>> The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
>>> schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
>>>
>>>
>> Ummm, ummm. Love them big power tetrodes! I like the 4CX1000 better
>> tho'. More gain, more compact, and easier to cool.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
>> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>
>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
> You guys play Dungeons and Dragons don't you? :D
If it has electrons or avgas running through its veins, I love it.
I guess fantasy suits some people but to me, life, sex, and flying are
not spectator sports.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
Absolutely reasonable and quite logical Mark. Mine is one that absolutely will
not start on pure N2.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
To: 'yak-list@matronics.com'
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Sorry to butt in Dennis, but I have watched this topic being discussed many times
and have always kept my mouth shut... but this time I am adding my 2 cents.
I have personally filled my tank with pure 100% water pumped nitrogen before
I left for deployments where I would not be starting my aircraft for a long time.
I have easy access to nitrogen.
After returning, I started it with the same nitrogen that I filled the bottle
with before I left.
It started, each and every time.
I always believed that the cylinder that the nitrogen was being fed to was one
already on the way down from the compression stroke... as in, already well past
TDC. The NEXT cylinder in the firing order thus was pulling it's air and
fuel in from the intake and had no bottle nitrogen in it at all. Thus when IT
got ready to go over TDC and was fired by the plug, it was in fact "uncontaminated".
.... if it failed to fire, then it too would have had nitrogen squirted
into it. If it DID fire, ....well then the rest is obvious.
Yes, I realize there is valve overlap on the cam.
Fact is... it has always started for me.
But.. having worked HOURS trying to get the air distributor set perfectly in
an M-14, it dawns on me that many different M-14's could easily have many different
settings on that air distributor. One tooth worth of difference does not
stop the engine from rotating. It MIGHT impact the cylinder combustible mixture
ratio enough to cause different results in different .. otherwise identical...
engines.
Is this a reasonable line of thought do you think?
Mark
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:46 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Smash,
Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air left in it? If there
was air in it, how many ATM's. There have been numerous discussions on the
List as to whether the M14P will start on pure nitrogen vs. a mixture of Nitrogen
and breathing air. I really don't want to open up that can of worms again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Tobin
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Well, since this *just* happened to me...ask the mx dudes for Nitrogen. Filled
up the tank and the booger started right up.
Smash
Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon"
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply is gone.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> I guess fantasy suits some people but to me, life, sex, and flying are not spectator
sports.
Sometimes you have to handle all three alone! 8)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27731#27731
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
>> >> The final output tubes are usually changed on a preventative maint.
>> >> schedule. 4-1000's anyone?
>>
> >Ummm, ummm. Love them big power tetrodes! I like the 4CX1000 better
> >tho'. More gain, more compact, and easier to cool.
>
>> Yeah, but 4CX1000's don't glow in the dark, and they have mandatory
>> warm up times!
Brian Lloyd:
>Ummm, I forgot about that lovely, warm, glow-in-the-dark flavor. And
>don't forget the anodes starting to develop that rosy glow when you are
>pushing hard on a long RTTY transmission.
Mine kinda turned white :-)
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOGS BACK 1234567890
RYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRYRY
>OK, never mind.
If it did not dim the lights of your neighbors when keyed, it was not worth
having.
As in.... a PAIR of 4-1000's. Or a GATES... with a 4CX5000
Or...a pair of 3-500's as... drivers.
Sorry to the YAK List for the post about a non-flying topic.
Mark
N50YK
Message 42
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OK ,
What was your impression of staging out of Lakeland ?
I was not able to fly formation with you , however , I was treated well with fuel
upon landing and inserted in a line of aprox. 20 aircraft when I left on Sun.
The ground crew was very helpful to me.
Yes, I know about Walt, I am really sorry about what happen to him with the ground
screwing up the parking. I understand there were other serious errors with
the ground crew.
Would you stage in LAL next year?
Terry Lewis
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> */Ha yes the "good old days". There I was setting in the dark nav
> compartment with my trusty APN-9 glowing it's warmth and the signal of a
> master and slave wave from very distant places. /*
Yeah, those were the days. Line up the pulses, read the TD, and look for
the intersecting TD LOPs on the chart. It made navigation so easy you
didn't really need a navigator any more.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
>
>> I guess fantasy suits some people but to me, life, sex, and flying are not spectator
sports.
>
>
> Sometimes you have to handle all three alone! 8)
You know, it takes a lot to make me laugh out loud. That one did. Thanks!
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>> */Ha yes the "good old days". There I was setting in the dark nav
>> compartment with my trusty APN-9 glowing it's warmth and the signal of a
>> master and slave wave from very distant places. /*
Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>Yeah, those were the days. Line up the pulses, read the TD, and look for
>the intersecting TD LOPs on the chart. It made navigation so easy you
>didn't really need a navigator any more.
I'll bet you two used to do down to the drug store to check the tubes in
your television too right?
Oops.... wait a second... so did I.
Speaking of Loran A .... er, ah .. now Loran C. I heard that the FAA
was thinking of putting more emphasis on Loran C and were planning on
sinking "serious" money into the system upgrading it. The idea being that
us airplane folks would then soon be offered an actual Loran-C // GPS Nav
Aid... both in one box. Kind of like an Embedded GPS Inertial NAV system,
this thing would use a KALMAN filter to blend GPS L1 signals with Loran-C
thus creating a system with accuracy approaching or even exceeding GPS
WAAIS, or at least... that's what is being claimed.
Anyone else heard this rumor?
Mark
N50YK
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
Tim Gagnon said:
"Sometimes you have to handle all three alone!"
Brilliant.
Please don't talk about dropping the soap.
mgb
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread. What
is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and small. I
have a -50...
Tim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27746#27746
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
Smash you did the right thing, usually the problem is how do we get anything in
the airplane with that fitting?
I've been using nitrogen for 7 years now and I've probably filled a completely
drained system 5 times using nitrogen usually after an annual that required a
tank inspection. Mainly because the engine airpump doesn't fill the emergency
tank. Otherwise I would just prop it. Think about it the air (or starting fluid)
is introduced into the cylinder on the power stroke after TDC it would take
2 rotations of the crank before nitrogen was introduced to all cylinders. After
the power stroke the exhaust stroke pushes 90% + of whatever is in the cylinder
out be it air nitrogen oxygen mix or exhaust gases. Then the intake stroke,
piston pulls a new (fresh) air-fuel mix into the cylinder from the intake
tube from the blower from the carburetor from ambient air. Now after 2 rotations
of the crank we have possibly 10% nitrogen in all the cylinders 90% air-fuel
mixture. At 14 deg before TDC the MAG (mags hot after prop moves) sends spark
to the plug "BOOM" sometime at or after TDC (starter fluid air-nitrogen-oxygen-mix)
is introduced to the Cylinder if the start button is held down.
Just my thought If Nitrogen is available and you can get it in the tank use it
or tie it down chock it and prop it.
I've started my plane many times with just the mags by myself with no help if its
warm I've seen it start by pulling the prop less than 10" with hot mags. And
in the winter 30 deg or less (once with no pre heat) mags only no one in the
cockpit (NOT ADVISED But I really wanted to fly). Russian rubber sucks
HOT MAGS AND PROPS ARE DANGEROUS I DO NOT ADVISE ANYONE TO DO THIS ONLY THAT I
HAVE DONE IT AND IT WORKED FOR ME!
Just as I have seen Mr. Tucker do things with an airplane that seems impossible.
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Dennis Savarese
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Smash,
Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air left in it? If there
was air in it, how many ATM's. There have been numerous discussions on the
List as to whether the M14P will start on pure nitrogen vs. a mixture of Nitrogen
and breathing air. I really don't want to open up that can of worms again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Tobin
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
Well, since this *just* happened to me...ask the mx dudes for Nitrogen. Filled
up the tank and the booger started right up.
Smash
Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon"
Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for
gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply is gone.
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
So I'm with Dennis. My Yak-52 (M14P) would absolutely, positively NOT
start with N2. My Hosai powered CJ would start on N2, however now that
the CJ is M14P powered, it will not start on N2. That said, all three
were relatively easy to hand prop.
Dabear
Def: Relatively: once someone was found to pull the prop, it was easy. :-)
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> Absolutely reasonable and quite logical Mark. Mine is one that
> absolutely will not start on pure N2.
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
> <mailto:BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> *To:* 'yak-list@matronics.com' <mailto:%27yak-list@matronics.com%27>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:49 PM
> *Subject:* RE: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
>
> Sorry to butt in Dennis, but I have watched this topic being
> discussed many times and have always kept my mouth shut... but
> this time I am adding my 2 cents.
>
> I have personally filled my tank with pure 100% water pumped
> nitrogen before I left for deployments where I would not be
> starting my aircraft for a long time. I have easy access to
> nitrogen.
>
> After returning, I started it with the same nitrogen that I filled
> the bottle with before I left.
>
> It started, each and every time.
>
> I always believed that the cylinder that the nitrogen was being
> fed to was one already on the way down from the compression
> stroke... as in, already well past TDC. The NEXT cylinder in the
> firing order thus was pulling it's air and fuel in from the intake
> and had no bottle nitrogen in it at all. Thus when IT got ready
> to go over TDC and was fired by the plug, it was in fact
> "uncontaminated". .... if it failed to fire, then it too would
> have had nitrogen squirted into it. If it DID fire, ....well then
> the rest is obvious.
>
> Yes, I realize there is valve overlap on the cam.
>
> Fact is... it has always started for me.
>
> But.. having worked HOURS trying to get the air distributor set
> perfectly in an M-14, it dawns on me that many different M-14's
> could easily have many different settings on that air
> distributor. One tooth worth of difference does not stop the
> engine from rotating. It MIGHT impact the cylinder combustible
> mixture ratio enough to cause different results in different ..
> otherwise identical... engines.
>
> Is this a reasonable line of thought do you think?
>
> Mark
> N50YK
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *A.
> Dennis Savarese
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:46 PM
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
>
> Smash,
> Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air left
> in it? If there was air in it, how many ATM's. There have
> been numerous discussions on the List as to whether the M14P will
> start on pure nitrogen vs. a mixture of Nitrogen and breathing
> air. I really don't want to open up that can of worms again.
> Dennis
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
Tim,
Go down to your local Fire station and find out what version of the
scott bottles they use. Then, go get a firefighter scott bottle. Once
you have it, the main difficulty is getting a regulator to fit, but it
can be done. Then you can get air, not N2, almost anywhere because most
fire departments use the same fittings.
BTW, some go without regulators and "slowly open the bottles" and use
the pop off valve as their protection. Yes, you can do that. I just
don't like opening 2400-3000psi pressure into a 700psi system. You make
the call.
DaBear
Tim Gagnon wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
>I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread. What
is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and small. I
have a -50...
>
>Tim
>
>
>
>
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
The best one I ever saw belonged to Mary Alexander and came with her 50 when
she bought it. It was a very small scuba tank. Darn thing was only about a
foot or so long and about 3 inches in diameter. You could take it to 3000
PSI, but when put into the 50's air bottle, it was just enough to take it
from zero to 700 PSI or so. (Volume was much less in the scuba tank).
It would easily fit in a carry bag and sit in the space right behind your
head.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:15 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air.....in an emergency.
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread.
What is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and
small. I have a -50...
Tim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27746#27746
Message 52
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Cc: Drew Blahnick <lacloudchaser@yahoo.com>
Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond ! ;)
Drew
Steve Dalton <sdalton@goeaston.net> wrote:
Yall,
At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for your
consideration:
Last Friday my sons F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic. Thankfully, the
young man flying it survived. Here is the story as related to me by folks knowledgeable
of the incident.
This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot (IP).
His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the rookie). The mission
they were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) sorties,
offensive perch set-ups. In these set-ups the rookie (played by the experienced
IP) starts behind the target (the IP trainee). At the fights on call, the
IP trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give the rookie a simple BFM problem
to solve. This is as basic as it gets, BFM 101. There is NO simpler BFM
mission! All he did was start a level hard turn!!!!!
But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the rookie, the IP trainee g-locs
(blacks out due to gs). He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and his hand
stops pulling on the stick. As a result, he heads downhill toward the water
at Warp 9. Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water RAPIDLY approaching
and ejects. The jet hits the water second after ejection, but he swings
in the chute for almost two minutes. Get a feel for the downhill speed on the
jet?!!?
Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in his
raft and is eventually rescued. The rescue is a whole story in itself!! The
ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!
OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people? Simply this: It could easily
happen to one of us!!!!!
It may have taken 9 gs to put this guy to sleep. But, would 7, 6, 5, or even
4 gs be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens? Folks, this was
the most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!! And, yet, its not the
first time this has happened. I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in the mid-80s IN
THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO. Glen Hessel hit the ground so fast/hard a Park Ranger
a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.
I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA teaching of BFM/ACM.
Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red Star (thats
all this guy did, one simple level turn! And he barely survived).
I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst ourselves.
But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it sounds egotistical and arrogant,
but you just cant teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who do not have the background
that fighter pilots have. Its one of those things that if you didnt learn
it (and survive it) in the military, youll never do so. You missed your chance.
Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain surgeons/major
league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope
John Paul/etc. We all followed different paths and each of us has certain talents
and experiences. We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all
arent fighter pilots.
OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!
Fly safe,
Steve Dalton
---------------------------------
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: TO ALL SUN-n-FUN Pilots |
Send the DVD
_jwfordham@aol.com_ (mailto:jwfordham@aol.com)
thanks
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
Mark,
It is called a "Pony Tank". It holds 3200psi. I carry one in a helmet bag with
my 1st stage scuba manifold adapted to a high pressure tubing with a Schrader
valve on the end. Have used it once to recharge the 52 after I forgot to turn
off the air valve and it sat like that for a week.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G
Sent: 4/11/2006 9:21:01 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air.....in an emergency.
The best one I ever saw belonged to Mary Alexander and came with her 50 when she
bought it. It was a very small scuba tank. Darn thing was only about a foot
or so long and about 3 inches in diameter. You could take it to 3000 PSI, but
when put into the 50's air bottle, it was just enough to take it from zero
to 700 PSI or so. (Volume was much less in the scuba tank).
It would easily fit in a carry bag and sit in the space right behind your head.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:15 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air.....in an emergency.
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread. What
is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and small. I
have a -50...
Tim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27746#27746
browse Subscriptions page, Chat, FAQ,
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Message 55
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| Subject: | Hand Proping - (was Air.....in an emergency.) |
How are the 'Gang' in Deer Valley doing nowadays? Please give them my best
regards!
The procedure you described here is absolutely exactly what we do down here
in Miami! It's safer that way (pushing start button after the "Proper"
started moving the prop) and it works like a charm. Based on my experience
doing this (Mostly as Proper), if the priming and pulling is done well, the
M-14 will start on the first blade 9 out of 10 starts.
Keep it safe and cool,
Sam Sax
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Shafer
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
>From Deer Valley where the sheer volume of CJs, Yak-52s, Yak-50s etc etc
make it likely that someone will not have enough air to start from time to
time. We have Scuba bottles with the appropriate fittings scattered around
the airport, but Bill Blackwell is available to put some Okie muscle into
starting. (but flabby, 65 year old me can easily prop a M-14 so you don't
need muscle to do it)
After the engine is primed and pulled through with all the proper
communication between propper and pilot, the brakes are set (if there is
enough residual air) or the airplane is chocked and/or tied down.
With the MAGS OFF the puller moves the blade into position for pulling. He
counts to three and pulls. The pilot is readied by the count and AFTER he
sees the prop moving, he hits the start switch. The Start switch is not
activated until AFTER the puller starts pulling. The puller cannot be
surprised by a sudden movement of the prop.
Do not forget that a M-14 can be started by ANY movement of the prop with
the shower of sparks on. Just a nudge, a slight touch is enough sometimes.
Even if you have spent 20 minutes trying to start it and have run out of
air. The next minute movement of the prop might start the engine.
Be careful out there.
EB
Message 56
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Hi Yakkers and CJers,
last week I was lucky to
take a shot of the beautiful
Lake Cowichan on Vancouver Island,
might be worth a look.
cheers
Elmar
Message 57
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Steve.
After 26 years in Vipers, I could not agree with you more. I have participated
in 10 class A A/C accidents. 3 of which were fatal. 2 from G lock and the other
from ego pressing beyond the Desired Learning Objective (DLO). One G Lock was
from threat reaction with a break turn at 500 ft. The other G lock was a DBFM
sortie with lead doing a slice back. All three were friends. Amazing how the
tapes always survive the smoking hole. Lost another to spatial D on a range
sortie pulling off the target.
ACM is an arena that needs to left alone.
I am for Tactical formation flying but not necessarily for teaching ACM.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Drew Blahnick
Cc: Drew Blahnick
Sent: 4/11/2006 9:29:34 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond ! ;)
Drew
Steve Dalton <sdalton@goeaston.net> wrote:
Yall,
At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for your consideration:
Last Friday my sons F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic. Thankfully, the
young man flying it survived. Here is the story as related to me by folks knowledgeable
of the incident.
This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot (IP).
His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the rookie). The mission they
were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) sorties, offensive
perch set-ups. In these set-ups the rookie (played by the experienced
IP) starts behind the target (the IP trainee). At the fights on call, the IP
trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give the rookie a simple BFM problem
to solve. This is as basic as it gets, BFM 101. There is NO simpler BFM
mission! All he did was start a level hard turn!!!!!
But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the rookie, the IP trainee g-locs
(blacks out due to gs). He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and his hand
stops pulling on the stick. As a result, he heads downhill toward the water at
Warp 9. Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water RAPIDLY approaching
and ejects. The jet hits the water second after ejection, but he swings in
the chute for almost two minutes. Get a feel for the downhill speed on the jet?!!?
Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in his
raft and is eventually rescued. The rescue is a whole story in itself!! The
ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!
OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people? Simply this: It could easily
happen to one of us!!!!!
It may have taken 9 gs to put this guy to sleep. But, would 7, 6, 5, or even 4
gs be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens? Folks, this was the
most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!! And, yet, its not the first
time this has happened. I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in the mid-80s IN
THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO. Glen Hessel hit the ground so fast/hard a Park Ranger
a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.
I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA teaching of BFM/ACM.
Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red Star (thats
all this guy did, one simple level turn! And he barely survived).
I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst ourselves.
But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it sounds egotistical and arrogant,
but you just cant teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who do not have the background
that fighter pilots have. Its one of those things that if you didnt learn
it (and survive it) in the military, youll never do so. You missed your chance.
Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain surgeons/major
league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope
John Paul/etc. We all followed different paths and each of us has certain talents
and experiences. We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all
arent fighter pilots.
OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!
Fly safe,
Steve Dalton
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> Speaking of Loran A .... er, ah .. now Loran C. I heard that the
> FAA was thinking of putting more emphasis on Loran C and were planning
> on sinking "serious" money into the system upgrading it. The idea being
> that us airplane folks would then soon be offered an actual Loran-C //
> GPS Nav Aid... both in one box. Kind of like an Embedded GPS Inertial
> NAV system, this thing would use a KALMAN filter to blend GPS L1 signals
> with Loran-C thus creating a system with accuracy approaching or even
> exceeding GPS WAAIS, or at least... that's what is being claimed.
>
> Anyone else heard this rumor?
Yes. It is the new system that the Europeans are fielding. They are
transmitting the WAAS differential data on the LORAN chains instead of
sending it from the satellites. The advantage of this system is that,
while it is very easy to jam GPS, it is almost impossible to jam LORAN.
Also, the kind of interference that affects LORAN has no affect on GPS
and vice-versa. If the GPS part fails for whatever reason, the LORAN
part will still provide usable area navigation and accuracy suitable for
nonprecision approaches.
Why didn't we think of that.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Air.....in an emergency. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
> I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread. What
is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and small.
I have a -50...
I carried a 20 cu-ft "pony" SCUBA bottle. Take it out of your aircraft
before your do your aerobatic routine.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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