Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:20 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Brian Lloyd)
2. 04:15 AM - Re: Hand Proping - (was Air.....in an emergency.) (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 04:58 AM - Re: BFM/ACM (Tim Gagnon)
4. 05:45 AM - Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit (David McGirt)
5. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (cgalley)
6. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (cjpilot710@aol.com)
7. 06:14 AM - Re: Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit (Roger Kemp)
8. 06:22 AM - Re: Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 06:31 AM - Re: Fun in a CJ (Roger Kemp)
10. 06:36 AM - Re: Fun in a CJ (Stephen Fox)
11. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Roger Kemp)
12. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Stephen Fox)
13. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Stephen Fox)
14. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Roger Kemp)
15. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (fish@aviation-tech.com)
16. 07:54 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Brian Lloyd)
17. 08:19 AM - Re: Air.....in an emergency. (John W. Hilterman Jr.)
18. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (John W. Hilterman Jr.)
19. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Brian Lloyd)
20. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Brian Lloyd)
21. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
22. 10:29 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Roger Kemp)
23. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (DaBear)
24. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Roger Kemp)
25. 12:39 PM - Re: BFM/ACM (Scooter)
26. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (DaBear)
27. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Roger Kemp)
28. 02:08 PM - Re: BFM/ACM (Scooter)
29. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
30. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
31. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (John W. Hilterman Jr.)
32. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
33. 05:01 PM - Rules for Jewels (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
34. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: BFM/ACM (Roger Kemp)
35. 05:37 PM - Re: BFM/ACM (Tim Gagnon)
36. 05:41 PM - Re: BFM/ACM (Tim Gagnon)
37. 05:50 PM - cj6 spare parts at low price (Zack)
38. 06:18 PM - Re: Fun in a CJ (Steve & Donna Hanshew)
39. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
40. 06:45 PM - Re: ADF Radio Compass (Tim Gagnon)
41. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: ADF Radio Compass (Brian Lloyd)
42. 07:45 PM - Re: Fun in a CJ (Roger Kemp)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Drew Blahnick wrote:
Drew,
Thanks for singling me out. I hope I meet your expectations with this
posting.
> I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included,
> amongst ourselves. But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it
> sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just cant teach BFM/ACM to
> guys/gals who do not have the background that fighter pilots have.
> Its one of those things that if you didnt learn it (and survive
> it) in the military, youll never do so. You missed your chance.
That is a silly statement. If I go through all the same training at the
hands of a civilian instructor or at the hands of a military instructor,
I get the same training. And it doesn't matter if you are in the
military or not. If you don't get the training and you don't have the
aptitude, you don't develop the chops. If you get the training and you
have the aptitude, you end up with the chops. There is nothing magical
about military training. It is two guys in an airplane, one teaching the
other. It doesn't matter what is sewn on your clothing or what is
painted on the airplane.
But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills
for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time.
Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without
any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to
figure it out without formal military training.
> Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain
> surgeons/major league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR
> drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc. We all followed different
> paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences. We all
> offer something unique to the group, but, we all arent fighter pilots.
I am on my third career. I am now doing something that I have never done
before. I am managing and making progress. In fact, I am doing pretty
well, thank you. Just because you "missed out" when you are young
doesn't mean you can't learn it later in life.
But I acknowledge one point: men and women at 20-something have the
fastest reaction times and best ability to learn new material. They are,
in general, going to do better at physical activity that requires peak
performance. Still, that does not mean that we cannot perform BFM/ACM
safely later in life. You might not win the fight with the youngster but
you won't necessarily kill yourself either.
As for G-LOC, guy and gals flying unlimited aerobatics subject
themselves to accelerations that meet or exceed those encountered in
BFM/ACM in our Yaks and CJs. I don't see anyone telling them they will
die if they try.
> OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!
This isn't a flame. It is just a statement of fact.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Hand Proping - (was Air.....in an emergency.) |
RE: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.Good point Sam.......Push the Start button
after the proper starts pulling the blades. One other point. Stand behind
the prop blade on the left side of the fuselage and pull down. Not only is it
safer, but I find it far less intimidating. Taller folks have a much easier
time with it than us shorter folks. More leverage.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Samuel Sax
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 10:42 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Hand Proping - (was Air.....in an emergency.)
How are the 'Gang' in Deer Valley doing nowadays? Please give them my best regards!
The procedure you described here is absolutely exactly what we do down here in
Miami! It's safer that way (pushing start button after the "Proper" started
moving the prop) and it works like a charm. Based on my experience doing this
(Mostly as Proper), if the priming and pulling is done well, the M-14 will start
on the first blade 9 out of 10 starts.
Keep it safe and cool,
Sam Sax
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Shafer
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
From Deer Valley where the sheer volume of CJs, Yak-52s, Yak-50s etc etc make
it likely that someone will not have enough air to start from time to time.
We have Scuba bottles with the appropriate fittings scattered around the airport,
but Bill Blackwell is available to put some Okie muscle into starting. (but
flabby, 65 year old me can easily prop a M-14 so you don't need muscle to do
it)
After the engine is primed and pulled through with all the proper communication
between propper and pilot, the brakes are set (if there is enough residual
air) or the airplane is chocked and/or tied down.
With the MAGS OFF the puller moves the blade into position for pulling. He counts
to three and pulls. The pilot is readied by the count and AFTER he sees
the prop moving, he hits the start switch. The Start switch is not activated
until AFTER the puller starts pulling. The puller cannot be surprised by a sudden
movement of the prop.
Do not forget that a M-14 can be started by ANY movement of the prop with the
shower of sparks on. Just a nudge, a slight touch is enough sometimes. Even
if you have spent 20 minutes trying to start it and have run out of air. The
next minute movement of the prop might start the engine.
Be careful out there.
EB
Message 3
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
> USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills
> for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time.
> Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without
> any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to
> figure it out without formal military training.
>
Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII. The Germans
were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier participation in the Spanish
Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from Germany to support Franco)
further developed tactics that are still in use today to inlcude most of the
various tactical formations. I have asked countless WWII US fighter pilots and
all without exception have told me that they received "BFM" training prior
to flying an operational mission. Now, it was certainly not like what it is today,
but they did have training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a
gunnery training report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior
to being deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written
recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.
Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and before.
Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting
Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.
Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely 'ON.'
Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have both hands
on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight.
Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"!
Height gives you the initiative.
Always turn and face the attack.
Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics
are not the best.
Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act
as top guard.
INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN something
in Air Fighting.
Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out!
Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27839#27839
Message 4
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| Subject: | Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit |
Just curious, I know there are several people on the list that have these
units now. What I would like to know, is about your installations..
Where are you mounting them, and would you recommend that spot to others.
Do you have a picture to share?
Thanks
David
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
For one... Loran doesn't work well in rain (IFR) approaches!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: ADF Radio Compass
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
>
>> Speaking of Loran A .... er, ah .. now Loran C. I heard that the FAA
>> was thinking of putting more emphasis on Loran C and were planning on
>> sinking "serious" money into the system upgrading it. The idea being
>> that us airplane folks would then soon be offered an actual Loran-C //
>> GPS Nav Aid... both in one box. Kind of like an Embedded GPS Inertial
>> NAV system, this thing would use a KALMAN filter to blend GPS L1 signals
>> with Loran-C thus creating a system with accuracy approaching or even
>> exceeding GPS WAAIS, or at least... that's what is being claimed.
>>
>> Anyone else heard this rumor?
>
> Yes. It is the new system that the Europeans are fielding. They are
> transmitting the WAAS differential data on the LORAN chains instead of
> sending it from the satellites. The advantage of this system is that,
> while it is very easy to jam GPS, it is almost impossible to jam LORAN.
> Also, the kind of interference that affects LORAN has no affect on GPS and
> vice-versa. If the GPS part fails for whatever reason, the LORAN part will
> still provide usable area navigation and accuracy suitable for
> nonprecision approaches.
>
> Why didn't we think of that.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 6
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Brain,
You're flaming the wrong guy here. The original post was from Steve Dalton,
former F-16 jock and now a chief pilot for SW.
I do not feel the association has the resources nor expertise to set up a
ACM/BFM course that would be safe for its members. Simple as that. Yes,
"training" is a good thing, but some "training" is unnecessary. Outside the
military, ACM is a ego trip - period. Ego has killed more people than weather.
Just about every accident could be traced some way back to ego.
The wings can be pulled off any airplane. It does not take G lock to do it.
Egos have a higher tolerance to G stress loads than our airplanes. The
Yaks and CJ's were not built to do this. They are trainers NOT fighters. =20In
our careers we've watched more than one ego trip, take the wings off perfectly
good airplanes and become lawn darts - with a hell of a lot more experience
pilots than you at the controls.
In theory "training" makes a safe pilot but "training" can also led a pilot
into a complacency where he goes too far into that part of the flight
envelope for his abilities.
My personal view is that the Darwin factor controls the ego. i.e. "There are
old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots."
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Drew Blahnick wrote:
Drew,
Thanks for singling me out. I hope I meet your expectations with this
posting.
> I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included,
> amongst ourselves. But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it
> sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just can=E2=80=99t teach BFM/ACM
to
> guys/gals who do not have the background that fighter pilots have.
> It=E2=80=99s one of those things that if you didn=E2=80=99t learn it=20(and
survive
> it) in the military, you=E2=80=99ll never do so. You missed your chance.
That is a silly statement. If I go through all the same training at the
hands of a civilian instructor or at the hands of a military instructor,
I get the same training. And it doesn't matter if you are in the
military or not. If you don't get the training and you don't have the
aptitude, you don't develop the chops. If you get the training and you
have the aptitude, you end up with the chops. There is nothing magical
about military training. It is two guys in an airplane, one teaching the
other. It doesn't matter what is sewn on your clothing or what is
painted on the airplane.
But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills
for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time.
Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without
any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to
figure it out without formal military training.
> Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain
> surgeons/major league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR
> drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc. We all followed different
> paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences. We all
> offer something unique to the group, but, we all aren=E2=80=99t fighter
pilots.
I am on my third career. I am now doing something that I have never done
before. I am managing and making progress. In fact, I am doing pretty
well, thank you. Just because you "missed out" when you are young
doesn't mean you can't learn it later in life.
But I acknowledge one point: men and women at 20-something have the
fastest reaction times and best ability to learn new material. They are,
in general, going to do better at physical activity that requires peak
performance. Still, that does not mean that we cannot perform BFM/ACM
safely later in life. You might not win the fight with the youngster but
you won't necessarily kill yourself either.
As for G-LOC, guy and gals flying unlimited aerobatics subject
themselves to accelerations that meet or exceed those encountered in
BFM/ACM in our Yaks and CJs. I don't see anyone telling them they will
die if they try.
> OK, flame proof undies strapped on=E2=80=A6fire away!
This isn't a flame. It is just a statement of fact.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 7
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| Subject: | Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit |
Talon,
I have a 396 mounted to the vent tube using a Ram mount. I put a Ram strap mount
on the end that is attached to the vent tube under the panel. I attached the
strap mount parallel to the vent tube with a adjustable hose clamp. On the other
end I took the 396 back plate mounting braket ( the cradle) off of the dash
mount and installed it on the other end of the Ram mount. I then adjusted the
attachment to the vent tube (under the panel) so as to have the GPS sitting
in front of the flat face on the cockpit vent down between my knees. The antenae
cable was threaded thru the G meter wiring hole and feed behind the instruments,
The excess wiring was looped and safety tied out of the way. The GPS reciever
was velcroed to the glare shield behind my anunciator panel.
Works fine without any interference and having the unit down lower in a darker
hole helps with reading the screen in direct sunlight.
All of the parts for the Ram Mount were purchased from Aircraft Spruce.
I do not have any pictures of it yet.
Hope this helps,
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: David McGirt
Sent: 4/12/2006 7:52:26 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit
Just curious, I know there are several people on the list that have these units
now. What I would like to know, is about your installations..
Where are you mounting them, and would you recommend that spot to others. Do you
have a picture to share?
Thanks
David
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit |
Point of clarification - Doc's airplane is a standard 52 and his installation,
although really nice, won't work in a TW/W because you don't have the vent tube
Doc mounted the Ram mount to.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Kemp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:14 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit
Talon,
I have a 396 mounted to the vent tube using a Ram mount. I put a Ram strap mount
on the end that is attached to the vent tube under the panel. I attached the
strap mount parallel to the vent tube with a adjustable hose clamp. On the
other end I took the 396 back plate mounting braket ( the cradle) off of the dash
mount and installed it on the other end of the Ram mount. I then adjusted
the attachment to the vent tube (under the panel) so as to have the GPS sitting
in front of the flat face on the cockpit vent down between my knees. The antenae
cable was threaded thru the G meter wiring hole and feed behind the instruments,
The excess wiring was looped and safety tied out of the way. The GPS
reciever was velcroed to the glare shield behind my anunciator panel.
Works fine without any interference and having the unit down lower in a darker
hole helps with reading the screen in direct sunlight.
All of the parts for the Ram Mount were purchased from Aircraft Spruce.
I do not have any pictures of it yet.
Hope this helps,
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: David McGirt
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: 4/12/2006 7:52:26 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Garmin 396 & Yak Cockpit
Just curious, I know there are several people on the list that have these
units now. What I would like to know, is about your installations..
Where are you mounting them, and would you recommend that spot to others.
Do you have a picture to share?
Thanks
David
Message 9
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Great picture. Got any of the airplane?
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: <tamara_b@telus.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/11/2006 11:43:46 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Fun in a CJ
>
>
> Hi Yakkers and CJers,
>
> last week I was lucky to
> take a shot of the beautiful
> Lake Cowichan on Vancouver Island,
> might be worth a look.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
Message 10
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On Apr 11, 2006, at 11:57 PM, tamara_b@telus.net wrote:
> last week I was lucky to
> take a shot of the beautiful
> Lake Cowichan on Vancouver Island,
> might be worth a look.
Beautifult picture! Now if had been a shot of four CJs skimming
across the lake wheels on the water that would a really great shot :)
Message 11
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially
developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).
More like basic fighter maneuvers.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/12/2006 7:04:09 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>
>
> > But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
> > USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the
skills
> > for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of
time.
> > Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out
without
> > any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people
to
> > figure it out without formal military training.
> >
>
>
> Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII.
The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier
participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from
Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use
today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations. I have asked
countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me
that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission.
Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have
training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training
report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being
deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written
recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.
>
> Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and
before.
>
> Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting
>
> Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.
> Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are
definitely 'ON.'
>
> Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have
both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight.
>
> Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"!
>
> Height gives you the initiative.
>
> Always turn and face the attack.
>
> Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though
your tactics are not the best.
>
> Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
>
> When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above
to act as top guard.
>
> INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN
something in Air Fighting.
>
> Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out!
>
> Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27839#27839
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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Actually the first written rules of air combat was Boelcke's Dicta
created by German WW I ace Oswald Boelcke.
Steve Fox
On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially
> developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).
> More like basic fighter maneuvers.
> Doc
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: 4/12/2006 7:04:09 AM
>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>>
>>
>>> But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
>>> USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the
> skills
>>> for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of
> time.
>>> Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out
> without
>>> any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for
>>> people
> to
>>> figure it out without formal military training.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in
>> WWII.
> The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier
> participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit
> send from
> Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still
> in use
> today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations. I have
> asked
> countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have
> told me
> that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational
> mission.
> Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have
> training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery
> training
> report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior
> to being
> deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written
> recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in
> WWII.
>>
>> Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and
> before.
>>
>> Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting
>>
>> Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.
>> Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are
> definitely 'ON.'
>>
>> Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the
>> body; have
> both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight.
>>
>> Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"!
>>
>> Height gives you the initiative.
>>
>> Always turn and face the attack.
>>
>> Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though
> your tactics are not the best.
>>
>> Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the
>> combat area.
>>
>> When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation
>> above
> to act as top guard.
>>
>> INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words
>> that MEAN
> something in Air Fighting.
>>
>> Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out!
>>
>> =97 Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D27839#27839
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
Message 13
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On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:49 AM, Stephen Fox wrote:
> Actually the first written rules of air combat was Boelcke's Dicta
> created by German WW I ace Oswald Boelcke.
>
> Steve Fox
> On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
And they are as follows;
Dicta Boelcke
1. Try to secure advantages before attacking. If possible keep the
sun behind you.
*'Advantages' for WWI aircraft included: speed, height, surprise,
performance and numbers.
Speed - the pilot with the faster of two machines has control over
the combat. He has the choice to break off combat and retire. The
slower machine can not catch him. The pilot of a slower machine must
stay on the defense. He can not run to safety. A fast moving aircraft
can perform elaborate manoeuvres, giving its pilot many options. A
machine flying close to its stall speed can do little beyond
wallowing in a more or less straight line. Aircraft engines available
in 1914 and 1915 provided just enough thrust to keep machines
airborne at 80 mph, and not much more. Level flight was fine, but
climbing to a higher altitude took several minutes and cut air speed
nearly in half. Diving, on the other hand, could add half again to a
plane's top speed. By 1916, engine power and speed increased. By the
end of the war, aircraft were operating regularly at speeds over 130
mph. Speed was critical.
Height - From the advantage of flying above his opponent, a pilot had
more control over how and where the fight takes place. He could dive
upon his opponent, gaining a sizable speed advantage for a hit and
run attack. Or, if the enemy had too many advantages, numbers for
instance, a pilot fly away with a good head start. On average, WWI
aircraft climbed slowly. Altitude was a hard earned 'potential
energy' store not to be given away capriciously.
Surprise - getting the first shot before one's opponent is prepared
to return fire was the 'safest' and preferred method for attack. Most
air victories were achieved in the first pass. Without all-seeing
devices like radar, a pilot could approach his foe stealthily, using
clouds, haze or even using the enemy aircraft's own wings or tail to
conceal his approach. The glare of the sun, especially, provided an
effective hiding spot.
Performance- Knowing the strengths, weakness and capabilities of your
own aircraft, and that of your foe, was also critical. Who was
faster, who could turn tighter, how many were there, etc.? He argued
against foolish acts of 'heroism.' If he could not 'secure
advantages,' he would not attack. One of Boelcke's pupils, Manfred
von Richthofen, learned this rule very well and became the war's top
scoring ace.
A documented example of Boelcke 'securing advantages' took place on
17 September 1916. Boelcke and his pilots intercepted a flight of
bombers and fighters crossing the lines. He chose not to attack right
away, but had his Jasta climb higher above the bombers, keeping
themselves between the bombers and the sun. There they circled and
waited. When the bomber pilots, observers and fighter escort pilots
were preoccupied with the destruction they were causing on the
ground, Boelcke signaled for his pilots to attack. Several enemy
aircraft went down and Jasta 2 lost no one.*
2. Always carry through an attack when you have started it.
*Rookie pilots would start a fight, but instinct (fear) would
convince them to break it off and run. This inevitably presented the
rookie's tail to his opponent's guns, making the rookie an easy
victory for his enemy. Boelcke learned that it was far better to stay
and continue mixing it up -- waiting for his opponent to make
mistakes or flee -- than to break and run. To turn tail and run was
to surrender most, if not all, of the advantages a pilot might have had.
As an example, when Manfred von Richthofen met British ace Lanoe
Hawker in November 1916, each persisted in trying to get on the
other's tail. Both stuck to Boelcke's second dictum. When their
endless circling had brought them down near the ground behind German
lines, Hawker had to chose between landing and capture or fleeing. He
chose to flee. Richthofen was then able to get behind him and shot
him down.*
3. Fire only at close range and only when your opponent is properly
in your sights.
*A common rookie's urge was to start blasting away upon sighting his
first enemy machine. Shots taken at ranges of 1000 yards stood little
chance of hitting their mark. The rattle of machine gun fire would
alert the intended target and gave them time to react.
The machine guns available for aircraft during the Great War were not
highly accurate at longer ranges. Add to that the difficulty of
aiming from a moving, bouncing gun platform at a fast moving target
and it is a marvel that anyone ever hit anything. Boelcke preferred
to fly to within 100 yards or less before firing, to ensure hitting
what he aimed at with his opening burst. Once the rattle of his guns
was heard, the advantage of surprise was gone, so it was best to make
that first shot most effective.
Another aspect of making each shot count was the limited supply of
ammunition carried in WWI aircraft -- usually only several hundred
rounds. This could amount to less than 60 seconds of sustained fire.
Reloading in the air varied from dangerous to impossible. Spraying
the sky with lead in hopes of hitting something, eventually, was not
an option. Shots had to be chosen carefully. Early in the war, when a
sense of chivalry still held sway, some men allowed their opponents
to depart if they were out of ammunition or had jammed guns. Total
war did not allow such courtesies to last for long.*
4. Always keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be
deceived by ruses.
*The first part, 'keeping your eye on your opponent,' sounds obvious
enough, but it needed to be stated. In the hustle and bustle of an
air fight it was easy to lose sight of your adversary. A restatement
of this rule might be: never assume you know where your opponent is
or will be. If a pilot 'lost' his foe, the advantage shifted to the
foe. A successful pilot did not allow himself to be distracted from
his opponent.
Ruses. It was not an uncommon practice for a pilot to feign being
hit, going into a supposedly uncontrolled spin or dive, in order to
exit a fight that was not going well. This practice traded on the
chivalry of their opponents. To continue hammering a man who was
already going down, was thought unsportsmanlike. Boelcke recognized
that too many enemy were being allowed to escape and return to fight
another day. War for national survival was not sport. He taught
against the accepted notion that once a machine began to spin down,
that one could move on. If it was a ruse, the enemy pilot would pull
out at the last moment and either escape or return to attack, perhaps
now having gained the advantage of surprise. Boelcke wanted his
pupils to follow their opponent down. Make sure they were out of the
fight or resume the fight if necessary.*
5. In any form of attack it is essential to assail your opponent from
behind.
*Firing at a machine flying across one's path required 'leading' the
shot -- aiming ahead of a moving target to compensate for its speed.
While a few pilots were adept at the mental calculations necessary
and good areal marksmen, most were much less adept. The velocity of a
moving gun platform, the speed of bullets plus the speed and
direction of a moving target could be a lot to consider in the heat
of battle. Furthermore, in deflection firing, the target could cross
the stream of fire whose bullets were 200 feet or more apart. Such
crossing gave less exposure to the bullets.
Head-on attacks or head-to-tail attacks required little or no
calculated deflection in aim. Head-on attack, however, exposed one
directly to the enemy's guns. Far safer and more effective to have
one's target and bullet stream all traveling in more or less the same
direction. This required little or no 'leading,' and exposed the
target to a greater concentration of fire.
Because of the prevalence of attack from the rear, aircraft design
adapted to allow for rear firing guns in two-seaters and larger
bombers.*
6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught,
but fly to meet it.
*This rule is related to dictum #2 above. The instinctive reaction of
many rookies was to turn and flee from an approaching attacker --
especially a diving one. This simply presented their tail to the
attacker, usually with disastrous results. Boelcke taught that a
pilot had to conquer that instinct. Turning to face the attack could
force the attacker onto the defensive, or at least keep the situation
unsettled, which was far better than presenting your tail. Even
though climbing to meet an attack would reduce speed, it was better
to try to bring one's own guns to bear than flee.*
7. When over the enemy's lines never forget your own line of retreat.
*If a pilot chose to flee a superior force, or was coming down with
damaged machine, it was critical to spend what little time he might
have going in the right direction. This rule sounds as though it is
stating the obvious, but Boelcke found it necessary to include. More
than a few pilots came down behind enemy lines because they got
confused and lost their way. In WWI, areal navigation was done mostly
by sight. Taking regular note of landmarks helped a pilot get his
bearings quickly, perhaps making the difference between safety and
captivity.*
8. For the Staffel: Attack on principle in groups of four or six.
When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care
that several do not go for one opponent.
*In the first year or so of WWI, air combat was more of a one-on-one
affair. The early aces, like Pegoud, Garros, Boelcke and Immelmann,
hunted the skies alone. Later in the war the sheer number of machines
in the sky increased. Several reconnaissance machines traveled
together for mutual protection, further protected by escorting
fighters. Boelcke recognized that the days of the lone hunter were
over. Many young pilots, however, still came to the front expecting
to dash valiantly into battle alone as an errant knight, only to be
quickly overwhelmed by multiple enemies.
Boelcke tirelessly lectured his pupils on the need for teamwork --
sometimes scolding them for acting too independently. Attacking in a
group allowed the leader to concentrate his attention exclusively on
his target, while his 'wingmen' protected his tail.
Air battles later in the war could involve dozens of aircraft from
each side at the same time. The sky could become a swirling tangle of
machines. When 'your' side was at a numerical disadvantage, it was
especially important not to double up on one opponent. The
concentrated fire was of dubious value, since you were just as likely
to get in each other's way as hit the enemy. Doubling up also left an
enemy machine somewhere unbothered and free to tail one of your
side's machines. Later in the war, teamwork became the primary key to
success and survival.*
Message 14
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Pappy,
Again I agree fully with what you say. A B- course student gets 6 months of stair
step instruction and indoctrination until their graduation as a fledgling
wingman fighter pilot. We can't teach that in a 3 day course. We can only make
the student dangerous and eventually kill someone. The pandora's box of ACM instruction
for civilians should remain closed.
What you do on your own dime is your choice. But remember, if you rip a wing off
and mort your self or someone else for that matter, it will impact all of us
Red Star Pilots.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 4/12/2006 8:22:14 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Brain,
You're flaming the wrong guy here. The original post was from Steve Dalton, former
F-16 jock and now a chief pilot for SW.
I do not feel the association has the resources nor expertise to set up a ACM/BFM
course that would be safe for its members. Simple as that. Yes, "training"
is a good thing, but some "training" is unnecessary. Outside the military,
ACM is a ego trip - period. Ego has killed more people than weather. Just about
every accident could be traced some way back to ego.
The wings can be pulled off any airplane. It does not take G lock to do it. Egos
have a higher tolerance to G stress loads than our airplanes. The Yaks and
CJ's were not built to do this. They are trainers NOT fighters. In our careers
we've watched more than one ego trip, take the wings off perfectly good airplanes
and become lawn darts - with a hell of a lot more experience pilots than
you at the controls.
In theory "training" makes a safe pilot but "training" can also led a pilot into
a complacency where he goes too far into that part of the flight envelope for
his abilities.
My personal view is that the Darwin factor controls the ego. i.e. "There are old
pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots."
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Drew Blahnick wrote:
Drew,
Thanks for singling me out. I hope I meet your expectations with this
posting.
> I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included,
> amongst ourselves. But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it
> sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just cant teach BFM/ACM to
> guys/gals who do not have the background that fighter pilots have.
> Its one of those things that if you didnt learn it (and survive
> it) in the military, youll never do so. You missed your chance.
That is a silly statement. If I go through all the same training at the
hands of a civilian instructor or at the hands of a military instructor,
I get the same training. And it doesn't matter if you are in the
military or not. If you don't get the training and you don't have the
aptitude, you don't develop the chops. If you get the training and you
have the aptitude, you end up with the chops. There is nothing magical
about military training. It is two guys in an airplane, one teaching the
other. It doesn't matter what is sewn on your clothing or what is
painted on the airplane.
But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills
for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time.
Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without
any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to
figure it out without formal military training.
> Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain
> surgeons/major league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR
> drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc. We all followed different
> paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences. We all
> offer something unique to the group, but, we all arent fighter pilots.
I am on my third career. I am now doing something that I have never done
before. I am managing and making progress. In fact, I am doing pretty
well, thank you. Just because you "missed out" when you are young
doesn't mean you can't learn it later in life.
But I acknowledge one point: men and women at 20-something have the
fastest reaction times and best ability to learn new material. They are,
in general, going to do better at physical activity that requires peak
performance. Still, that does not mean that we cannot perform BFM/ACM
safely later in life. You might not win the fight with the youngster but
you won't necessarily kill yourself either.
As for G-LOC, guy and gals flying unlimited aerobatics subject
themselves to accelerations that meet or exceed those encountered in
BFM/ACM in our Yaks and CJs. I don't see anyone telling them they will
die if they try.
> OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!
This isn't a flame. It is just a statement of fact.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 15
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--> Yak-List message posted by: fish@aviation-tech.com
Group,
The father of modern dog fighting was Lt. Oswald Boeleke (WW I, German Ace,
40 Victories). He wrote Boeleke's Dicta (the rules for dog fighting).
Air combat has changed dramatically since World War I. Basic tactics and rules
established by Oswald Boeleke in 1916, however, have stood the test of time
well. He gave new pilots eight rules of air combat to help them survive and
win.
Here are his rules:
1. Try to secure an advantage before you begin your attack. This advantage could
be altitude, position, or surprise.
2. Always carry through with an attack once you've started.
Fire only at close range and when your opponent is properly in your sights.
3. Always keep your eye on your opponent. Don't be deceived by ruses.
4. Always attack from behind your opponent.
5. When attacked, turn into the attack; don't try to evade. 6. Always be on
the offensive.
6. When over enemy lines, never forget your own line of retreat.
7. When your fuel and/or weapons are low, start thinking about how you're going
to get back to base.
8. Attack in groups of four or six.
Lt. Maxwell Imeilman (15 Victories) created the maneuver named after him. He
was also the first member of the Air Force to win the Pour Le Merite (rom then
on called: The Blue Max).
Fly Safe
John fischer
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it!
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
>All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially
>developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).
>More like basic fighter maneuvers.
>Doc
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: 4/12/2006 7:04:09 AM
>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
>>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
>>
>>
>> > But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
>> > USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the
>skills
>> > for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of
>time.
>> > Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out
>without
>> > any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people
>to
>> > figure it out without formal military training.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII.
>The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier
>participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from
>Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use
>today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations. I have asked
>countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me
>that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission.
>Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have
>training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training
>report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being
>deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written
>recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.
>>
>> Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and
>before.
>>
>> Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting
>>
>> Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.
>> Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are
>definitely 'ON.'
>>
>> Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have
>both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight.
>>
>> Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"!
>>
>> Height gives you the initiative.
>>
>> Always turn and face the attack.
>>
>> Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though
>your tactics are not the best.
>>
>> Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
>>
>> When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above
>to act as top guard.
>>
>> INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN
>something in Air Fighting.
>>
>> Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out!
>>
>> Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27839#27839
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
>> But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
>> USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills
>> for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time.
>> Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without
>> any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to
>> figure it out without formal military training.
>>
>
>
> Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in
> WWII. The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier
> participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit
> send from Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that
> are still in use today to inlcude most of the various tactical
> formations. I have asked countless WWII US fighter pilots and all
> without exception have told me that they received "BFM" training
> prior to flying an operational mission. Now, it was certainly not
> like what it is today, but they did have training. If you need proof,
> I can forward a copy of a gunnery training report from a P-51 pilot
> who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being deployed the 359FG
> in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written recently covering
> the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.
I *know* that there was ACM training that took place in WWII. The point
is that there *was* a point where the knowledge didn't exist.
No knowledge of ACM existed prior to WWI. There was no one to teach it
because no one had done it. And even when they did start to learn, it
was very limited due to the limitations of the aircraft. The earliest
combat pilots in WWI went into combat with no training whatsoever. They
learned by trying and created a set of tactics that worked for the
aircraft they had at the time.
At the beginning of WWII some of the people in the Luftwaffe had gone to
the trouble to develop new tactics that worked much better given the
capabilities of the aircraft. When the RAF found themselves on the
receiving end they had to adapt or die. Many died, the others adapted.
There was no one in the RAF ahead of time to give new pilots the
necessary training because they didn't know the tactics ahead of time.
Actually, they did get military training ... from the Luftwaffe. The
problem was, the lessons were quite painful early on. Those that learned
the lessons the hard way came back and tried to impart that information
as quickly as they could so that the newbies would have a fighting
chance to get past their first five combat sorties alive.
And the same goes for the USAAF and the USN.
So we can argue just exactly when things happened and why they happened
but that is a small thing. The key point is: there was a point where no
one had the knowledge and then someone innovated and created the
knowledge. Being the recipient of the best military training the RAF had
to offer in 1939 did not convey upon you the preparation to meet the
Luftwaffe on an even footing in combat. Likewise, being in the USAAF or
USN and being the recipient of the best military training the US could
offer at the beginning of WWII did not convey upon you the preparation
to meet the Luftwaffe on an even footing in combat. The first pilots to
deploy all got their initial learning one way and one way only -- in combat.
One thing I will say for the US military is that they were smart enough
to bring the best and the brightest back to train the noobs rather than
leaving them in combat until they died where their hard-earned knowledge
would die with them.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 17
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| Subject: | Air.....in an emergency. |
Be very careful and make sure you read your insurance policy..some
specifically prohibit hand propping. Mine does.
Hitman
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Shafer
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
>From Deer Valley where the sheer volume of CJs, Yak-52s, Yak-50s etc etc
make it likely that someone will not have enough air to start from time to
time. We have Scuba bottles with the appropriate fittings scattered around
the airport, but Bill Blackwell is available to put some Okie muscle into
starting. (but flabby, 65 year old me can easily prop a M-14 so you don't
need muscle to do it)
After the engine is primed and pulled through with all the proper
communication between propper and pilot, the brakes are set (if there is
enough residual air) or the airplane is chocked and/or tied down.
With the MAGS OFF the puller moves the blade into position for pulling. He
counts to three and pulls. The pilot is readied by the count and AFTER he
sees the prop moving, he hits the start switch. The Start switch is not
activated until AFTER the puller starts pulling. The puller cannot be
surprised by a sudden movement of the prop.
Do not forget that a M-14 can be started by ANY movement of the prop with
the shower of sparks on. Just a nudge, a slight touch is enough sometimes.
Even if you have spent 20 minutes trying to start it and have run out of
air. The next minute movement of the prop might start the engine.
Be careful out there.
EB
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich GS11 Mark G <mailto:BitterlichMG@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air.....in an emergency.
"the wades" <wade154@frontiernet.net> "Bill Wade" said:
>It depends on that particular airplanes mags if they produce a strong spark
>at the turn of the prop. The shower is not controlled by the mag its
>controlled by the battery and is continuous as long as the start button is
>pressed.
>BUT BE ADVISED THAT IF YOU HIT THE START BUTTON IT COULD START WITH
>JUST THE GAS IN THE CYLINDERS and if there is a guy holding the prop ready
>to pull he may get caught off guard and swept up in the moment NOT ADVISED,
>but does aid in starting with weak mags.
With respect, I disagree somewhat with the above advice. Bill makes it
sound like it would be much safer NOT to use the starter button than to use
it. I believe that is a matter of perspective. Having a prop violently jump
backwards when you go to hand prop it can also catch a person off guard and
cause injury.
I'd advise all Yak owners to try this experiment. Turn off the circuit
breaker for the starting system... in fact, if you want... leave the whole
electrical master turned off. Turn on your air. Now... try to start that
engine using your big toe to actuate the air starter valve manual lever
(good practice for when it fails... which it always does sooner or later by
the way) and the mag switch. This little exercise will demonstrate that it
is not always an easy thing to start an M-14 on the Mags alone, and it is
has nothing to do with the Mags being "weak". Instead you need to pop that
Mag cap and check your rotor cap. Does it have two electrical contacts on
the rotor itself? If it does, ... and it more than likely will.... you have
the kind of mag that uses one contact for starting and another for normal
running of the engine. The contact for starting is initiated through the
starting switch from the cockpit and gives the engine RETARDED SPARK TIMING.
This makes the engine much easier to start and prevents it from starting to
fire with normal advanced timing and then immediately trying to turn over
backwards. You may notice this symptom when you try to start on just the
Mags alone. Just remember.... starting normally uses retarded timing.
Starting on the mags alone uses advanced timing.
Thus it is HIGHLY ADVISABLE to use the start button when hand propping an
M-14 engine.
Of course there is the caution that if you do this, you MUST make sure that
there is no air left in the system that might rotate the prop prematurely,
as Bill mentioned... during the hand propping exercise. Do something like
exercising the brakes, or the flaps or whatever... to make sure all the air
is removed from the system ahead of time. Then as the person is ready to
prop the engine, engage the start button. You also want to make sure that
the person propping the airplane knows all about this kind of stuff.
My 2 cents.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Message 18
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Two comments:
1. This logic means we better all stop doing ANY kind of maneuvering on
the airplane that puts us close to 4 G=92s, aerobatics included.
2. I disagree with the comment =93if you didn=92t learn it in the military,
you=92ll never do so=94. There=92s a Yak-50 pilot on the west coast that wasn=92t
trained in the military but was trained by a fellow F-18 pilot buddy of
mine. On any given day we=92ll trade bullets 50% of the time. He=92s one of
the few individuals I=92m willing to go =93fangs out=94 with because I know he
won=92t bust our ACM training rules which we brief prior to every flight. I
also know that during an engagement he understands and recognizes those
sight pictures which can lead to a bad day at the office and will pull the
fangs in prior to it getting dangerous.
My two cents.
Hitman
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:22 PM
Cc: Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond ! ;)
Drew
Steve Dalton <sdalton@goeaston.net> wrote:
Y=92all,
At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for
your consideration:
Last Friday my son=92s F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic. Thankfully,
the young man flying it survived. Here is the story as related to me by
folks knowledgeable of the incident.
This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot
(IP). His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the =93rookie=94). The
mission they were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM)
sorties, offensive perch set-ups. In these set-ups the =93rookie=94 (played by
the experienced IP) starts behind the =93target=94 (the IP trainee). At the
=93fight=92s on=94 call, the IP trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give
the =93rookie=94 a simple BFM problem to solve. This is as basic as it gets,
BFM 101. There is NO simpler BFM mission! All he did was start a level
hard turn!!!!!
But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the =93rookie=94, the IP trainee
g-locs (blacks out due to g=92s). He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and
his hand stops pulling on the stick. As a result, he heads downhill toward
the water at Warp 9. Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water
RAPIDLY approaching and ejects. The jet hits the water =BD second after
ejection, but he swings in the chute for almost two minutes. Get a feel for
the downhill speed on the jet?!!?
Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in
his raft and is eventually rescued. The rescue is a whole story in itself!!
The ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!
OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people? Simply this: It could
easily happen to one of us!!!!!
It may have taken 9 g=92s to put this guy to sleep. But, would 7, 6, 5, or
even 4 g=92s be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens? Folks,
this was the most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!! And, yet,
it=92s not the first time this has happened. I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in
the mid-80=92s IN THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO. Glen Hessel hit the ground so
fast/hard a Park Ranger a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.
I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA =93teaching=94 of
BFM/ACM. Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red
Star (that=92s all this guy did, one simple level turn! And he barely
survived).
I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst
ourselves. But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it sounds
egotistical and arrogant, but you just can=92t teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who
do not have the background that fighter pilots have. It=92s one of those
things that if you didn=92t learn it (and survive it) in the military, you=92ll
never do so. You missed your chance. Just like most (all?) of us missed
our chance to be brain surgeons/major league baseball players/rock
stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc. We all
followed different paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences.
We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all aren=92t fighter
pilots.
OK, flame proof undies strapped on=85fire away!
Fly safe,
Steve Dalton
_____
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman5/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt
save big.
Message 19
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> */Brain,/*
> *//*
> */You're flaming the wrong guy here. The original post was from Steve
> Dalton, former F-16 jock and now a chief pilot for SW. /*
I know the original post came from Steve. I also know that the message
came from Drew who intentionally baited Al and me by name.
And I did not flame anyone. I didn't flame Drew and I didn't flame
Steve. I am expressing my opinion during a discussion. Expressing a
counter opinion or opposing fact is not flaming. Discussion on all sides
of a topic helps people to see all the sides of a topic so that they can
then go make good decisions for themselves. The bottom line in all of
this is for people to have as much information as possible so they can
go think for themselves.
> */I do not feel the association has the resources nor expertise to set
> up a ACM/BFM course that would be safe for its members. Simple as
> that.
This is a really big disconnect here. This is, I think, the crux of the
matter. I get the feeling that you think that I think that the
"association" (I assume you mean RPA) should provide sanctioned BFM/ACM
training when, in fact, I don't want the "association" to set up
anything. What I do want is for the "association" to stop saying "you
must ..." and "you mustn't ...". If a bunch of guys show up at an
"association" whoop-de-doo and say, "we want to go out and do ACM
training," I want the "association" to say, "here's a room where you can
brief, here's some airspace we got NOTAM'd where you can go play. Knock
yourself out and try to come back in one piece. Come back and tell us
all about how much fun you had over a beer when we quit flying for the day."
> Yes, "training" is a good thing, but some "training" is
> unnecessary. Outside the military, ACM is a ego trip - period. Ego has
> killed more people than weather. Just about every accident could be
> traced some way back to ego. /*
Maybe. It is also an adrenaline rush and a lot of people really like
that adrenaline rush. Some get it jumping out of a perfectly good
airplane. Some get it climbing rocks. Some get it by driving at 200 mph
next to 29 other cars. Some get it by doing aerobatics. Some get it by
chasing another airplane around the sky.
So, guess what, they are going to go do it. More power to 'em.
> */The wings can be pulled off any airplane.
I'm not sure that is totally true. Some airplanes can't go fast enough
to where you can generate enough lift to cause the wing or airframe
structure to fail. But I concede that one could certainly fly most
trainers to destruction, including the CJ6A.
> It does not take G lock to
> do it. Egos have a higher tolerance to G stress loads than our
> airplanes. The Yaks and CJ's were not built to do this.
Certainly the CJ6A isn't. The Yak-52 was built to execute unlimited
category aerobatic maneuvers including tumbling and gyroscopic
maneuvers. I'm not sure that there is anything someone can do during ACM
that is going to actually break the Yak-52 but I also concede that if
you tried really hard you might be able to overstress the Yak-52.
But that is not the point. Isn't the point to know where the limits are
and to train yourself not to exceed those limits?
> They are
> trainers NOT fighters. In our careers we've watched more than one ego
> trip, take the wings off perfectly good airplanes and become lawn darts
> - with a hell of a lot more experience pilots than you at the controls./*
I couldn't agree more.
> */In theory "training" makes a safe pilot but "training" can also led a
> pilot into a complacency where he goes too far into that part of the
> flight envelope for his abilities. /*
Isn't that true of all aspects of aviation? Isn't that what judgment is
all about?
At this point we diverge from the factual into the philosophical. There
is a powerful desire on the part of many people to try to "help" the
rest be safer/healthier/whatever. (I tend to call these people
"meddlesome liberals" because it seems that they have more of an
egocentric view that they know better and must protect the ones who
don't know as well from themselves. But this behavior is not limited
solely to liberals. Letting people make decisions, especially bad
decisions, for themselves is NOT popular.)
No question that NOT performing ACM is safer than performing ACM. OTOH,
if you extend that out you run down the following road:
1. not performing ACM is safer than performing ACM;
2. not flying formation is safer than flying formation;
3. not doing aerobatics is safer than doing aerobatics;
4. not doing spins is safer than doing spins;
And eventually we reach:
5. not flying is safer than flying.
So where do we stop? Where do we cease telling others how to live their
lives? Where do we allow people to take full responsibility for
themselves, especially when operating their own aircraft?
So, given that people ARE going to go out and try this stuff, is it
better for the "association" to provide an environment where those who
have and who know can impart their knowledge to those who want to learn
or is it better for the "association" to say, "you mustn't do that."
There are people in "the association" who have significant experience in
flying ACM. There are people in "the association" who want to learn
something about ACM. I think it is better for the latter to get together
with the former so the former can say to the latter, "OK, here is how
you do this and, by the way, if you do this other thing you are likely
to hurt yourself or your airplane."
When the RPA started out as the Yak Pilots Club, it was just a way to
find other people who shared an interest in these aircraft. As the RPA
has grown the character of the organization has changed from a club to
that of a quasi-military organization with lots of structure, hierarchy,
and rules. I suspect that this stems, in part, from the people who
populate it. Lots of people flying Yaks and CJs come from a military
background. They trained and flew in a military environment. It is what
they know and they know that it worked. In the military those higher in
rank have the responsibility to protect and not misuse the resources
under their command and control.
And of the ones who are not ex-military, a lot of them are military
wannabes. They wish they could have trained in and flown a kerosene
rocket. So they want to emulate the military and get some of that feeling.
But we are not in the military. You are not responsible for me nor for
the safe operation of my airplane. I am not responsible for you. I and I
alone have the responsibility for myself. You may advise, suggest,
wheedle, cajole, browbeat, or convince me that I should do something but
you may not force me to do something even if you know for a fact I am
doing something wrong.
I think I have a useful analogy, one that I know everyone will
understand. As instructors we are supposed to teach students that stalls
are dangerous because stalls lead to spins and that gets people killed.
So the FAA is protecting us by making us teach stall avoidance.
Personally I prefer to show my students the whole stall/spin regime. I
show them what the rudders are for. I let the airplane depart and then
recover so they can experience how much altitude will be lost. I show
them what a fully developed spin looks like and a couple different ways
to recover. I am not doing this in order to enable them to go out and
spin their aircraft, I am doing this so they understand why stall
avoidance is so important. It is no longer just words like, "here be
dragons." They learn to respect that part of the envelope, not fear it.
And some do use that as a springboard to choose to move on to more
interesting types of flight.
Now apply this same attitude to ACM.
<sigh> I am getting tired of finding myself in opposition to you guys
all the time. I think you guys should do what you want to do. I think
that I should do what I want to do. I promise to take steps to ensure
that my actions do not impinge negatively on you either.
And when all is said and done, I sure hope we are still able to fly just
for the sheer joy of it. When the people who love this as much as I do
start talking like meddlesome liberals I find that I'm not feeling
particularly optimistic anymore.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 20
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Roger Kemp wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially
> developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).
Max Immelmann did indeed come up with a number of early tactics. The
immelmann turn (half loop with a roll to level at the top) was named
after him. The other person who was so influential, probably more
influential than Immelmann, was Oswald Boelke. If one had to pick just
one person who did the most to define fighter tactics it was probably
Oswald Boelke.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
cgalley wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> For one... Loran doesn't work well in rain (IFR) approaches!
I have flown many a VOR or NDB approach using LORAN as my "backup", in
both rain and snow. It worked almost all the time. The only time I
remember completely losing my LORAN to p-static was over the mid
Atlantic in a dry snowstorm. The p-static was so fierce it took out
every radio in the airplane including the comms. (This was pre GPS so I
don't know if I would have lost the GPS too.)
That is why the GPS/LORAN combination is so powerful. They complement
each other.
LORAN can be prone to failure due to precipitation static (p-static).
GPS isn't. GPS is very susceptible to jamming. LORAN isn't.
BTW, if you use an H-field antenna (usually some kind of loop) instead
of an E-field antenna (usually a whip) you eliminate most of LORAN-C's
sensitivity to p-static. If we start using LORAN to backup GPS as the
Europeans are doing, expect to see more H-field antennas.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 22
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Steve Ol' boy, you are correct. I stand corrected. Imeilman introduced the use
of the vertical into tactics and ACM for abrupt reversal of direction to gain
an advantage.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Fox
Sent: 4/12/2006 9:03:49 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Actually the first written rules of air combat was Boelcke's Dicta created by
German WW I ace Oswald Boelcke.
Steve Fox
On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially
developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).
More like basic fighter maneuvers.
Doc
[Original Message]
From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the
skills
for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of
time.
Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out
without
any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people
to
figure it out without formal military training.
Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII.
The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier
participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from
Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use
today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations. I have asked
countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me
that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission.
Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have
training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training
report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being
deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written
recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.
Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and
before.
Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting
Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.
Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are
definitely 'ON.'
Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have
both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight.
Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"!
Height gives you the initiative.
Always turn and face the attack.
Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though
your tactics are not the best.
Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above
to act as top guard.
INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN
something in Air Fighting.
Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out!
Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941
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Message 23
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--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
Brian Lloyd wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>
>> */Brain,/*
>> *//* */You're flaming the wrong guy here. The original post was from
>> Steve Dalton, former F-16 jock and now a chief pilot for SW. /*
>
>
> I know the original post came from Steve. I also know that the message
> came from Drew who intentionally baited Al and me by name.
>
> And I did not flame anyone. I didn't flame Drew and I didn't flame
> Steve. I am expressing my opinion during a discussion. Expressing a
> counter opinion or opposing fact is not flaming. Discussion on all
> sides of a topic helps people to see all the sides of a topic so that
> they can then go make good decisions for themselves. The bottom line
> in all of this is for people to have as much information as possible
> so they can go think for themselves.
I didn't see a flame either. However I did see the juvenile comment
from Drew and I gave it all the response it deserved. It seems that
Drew in particular doesn't understand the difference between flames and
discussion based on difference of opinion.
BTW, Drew and those that would like to see what flame responses, and
flame wars actually look like, I'd recommend looking at alt.fames
newsgroup. Having been around the net since 1991, what people see as
flame posts are actually just strong differences of opinion.
Thankfully, it is a rare post in this forum when people get into
insulting flame posts. While there is radical differences of opinion
here, it is mostly beneficial discussion and most would still get
together to fly or drink beer at the end of the day.
Dabear
Message 24
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Hitman,
It is what you do and are comfortable with. I for sure am not saying not to do
ACM if it is between mutually consenting adults. You brief it and are comfortable
with the players , then fly it. But lets not do this in the context of the
RPA.
I fly BFM occassionally with my "buds" from the squadron. I am not sure I would
take my ex-marine helicopter pilot bud out for a 1 v 1 BFM sortie since he has
no prior ACM training. But he is ex-military for what it is worth.
It is skill and apptitude. That is not learned in a 3 day course. I will bet your
friend learned this skill over a minimum of a year's time unless he got to
fly 3 to 4 days a week 1 to 2 sorties a day and had academics in between for a
month or so. It takes time and exposure to see how an unsafe situation is or
can be developing. How what started as a rolling reposition on a level turning
bandit aircraft that abruptly pulls to the vertical now creating a flight path
confliction. Now in a heartbeat you are going to have to convert this to a
vertical rolling scissor or opt for unloading and extending to exit the fight.
If you nose is already committed to the vertical with your bid for a rolling
reposition and with his pull to the vertical you are now commited to the vertical
also. In the one move, your opponent just changed the whole architecture of
the fight in a heartbeat. A 3 day wonder would not even see it coming nor would
they quickly recognize that they have a flight pa
th confliction, if the fight was inside 2000 to 1000 feet say, you and he are
in trouble. Outside of 2000 ft, to 3000 ft in our aircraft, a newbie might be
able to see that and react.
How many civilians off the street even understood what I was just talking about?
Not many, I am sure.
I know I sound like I am lecturing to a pro. Sorry, I do not mean to sound that
way. I know you know all of what I was saying, but there are those out there
that want to taste ACM and do not have the back ground to go there safely.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hilterman Jr.
Sent: 4/12/2006 10:44:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Two comments:
This logic means we better all stop doing ANY kind of maneuvering on the airplane
that puts us close to 4 Gs, aerobatics included.
I disagree with the comment if you didnt learn it in the military, youll never
do so. Theres a Yak-50 pilot on the west coast that wasnt trained in the military
but was trained by a fellow F-18 pilot buddy of mine. On any given day well
trade bullets 50% of the time. Hes one of the few individuals Im willing
to go fangs out with because I know he wont bust our ACM training rules which
we brief prior to every flight. I also know that during an engagement he understands
and recognizes those sight pictures which can lead to a bad day at the
office and will pull the fangs in prior to it getting dangerous.
My two cents.
Hitman
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:22 PM
Cc: Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond ! ;)
Drew
Steve Dalton <sdalton@goeaston.net> wrote:
Yall,
At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for your consideration:
Last Friday my sons F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic. Thankfully, the
young man flying it survived. Here is the story as related to me by folks knowledgeable
of the incident.
This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot (IP).
His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the rookie). The mission they
were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) sorties, offensive
perch set-ups. In these set-ups the rookie (played by the experienced
IP) starts behind the target (the IP trainee). At the fights on call, the IP
trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give the rookie a simple BFM problem
to solve. This is as basic as it gets, BFM 101. There is NO simpler BFM
mission! All he did was start a level hard turn!!!!!
But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the rookie, the IP trainee g-locs
(blacks out due to gs). He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and his hand
stops pulling on the stick. As a result, he heads downhill toward the water at
Warp 9. Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water RAPIDLY approaching
and ejects. The jet hits the water second after ejection, but he swings in
the chute for almost two minutes. Get a feel for the downhill speed on the jet?!!?
Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in his
raft and is eventually rescued. The rescue is a whole story in itself!! The
ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!
OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people? Simply this: It could easily
happen to one of us!!!!!
It may have taken 9 gs to put this guy to sleep. But, would 7, 6, 5, or even 4
gs be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens? Folks, this was the
most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!! And, yet, its not the first
time this has happened. I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in the mid-80s IN
THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO. Glen Hessel hit the ground so fast/hard a Park Ranger
a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.
I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA teaching of BFM/ACM.
Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red Star (thats
all this guy did, one simple level turn! And he barely survived).
I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst ourselves.
But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it sounds egotistical and arrogant,
but you just cant teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who do not have the background
that fighter pilots have. Its one of those things that if you didnt learn
it (and survive it) in the military, youll never do so. You missed your chance.
Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain surgeons/major
league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope
John Paul/etc. We all followed different paths and each of us has certain talents
and experiences. We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all
arent fighter pilots.
OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!
Fly safe,
Steve Dalton
Message 25
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52@verizon.net>
Can anyone recommend a book on ACM? I'm getting bored with the inverted flat spins
and i need a new challenge.
I had an ACM book that came with a video game that i got back in the early nineties
(Fighting Falcons or something like that). It was surprisingly well written
(by an F16 instructor). Unfortunately I loaned it out and never recovered
it.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27930#27930
Message 26
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--> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
Fighter Combat, Robert Shaw Naval Press
DaBear
Scooter wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52@verizon.net>
>
>Can anyone recommend a book on ACM? I'm getting bored with the inverted flat
spins and i need a new challenge.
>
>I had an ACM book that came with a video game that i got back in the early nineties
(Fighting Falcons or something like that). It was surprisingly well written
(by an F16 instructor). Unfortunately I loaned it out and never recovered
it.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27930#27930
>
>
>
Message 27
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Scooter,
You can get the same game at Office Depot or even upgrade to the F-22
version. Why you can even go on line to fly ACM against others with the
newer versions of Falcon 5.0 or F-22 version 5.0. Saw them the other night
as I was making the necessary shelf check for the office supply run. Why
they are offering 5 hours of "Warbirds" online flight simulation. The
ultimate in geeks v geeks online fighter simulation. Just prepping the next
generation UCAV drivers where you can fight the war from your console in
the cab somewhere on Nellis. Just video and RC flying in a new releam with
toys that really do BANG when the pickle button is pushed.
The book by Robert Shaw is a good one, but somehow I get the feeling
though you are yanking the collective chain here.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/12/2006 2:53:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: DaBear <dabear@damned.org>
>
> Fighter Combat, Robert Shaw Naval Press
>
> DaBear
>
> Scooter wrote:
>
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52@verizon.net>
> >
> >Can anyone recommend a book on ACM? I'm getting bored with the inverted
flat spins and i need a new challenge.
> >
> >I had an ACM book that came with a video game that i got back in the
early nineties (Fighting Falcons or something like that). It was
surprisingly well written (by an F16 instructor). Unfortunately I loaned
it out and never recovered it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Read this topic online here:
> >
> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27930#27930
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52@verizon.net>
That looks like an interesting book. Only about $15 in the Amazon new&used section.
I looked up the book that came with Falcon 4.0 - "Art Of The Kill" by Pete Bonanni.
It's an easy read for those who don't want to get too serious. As I recall
it also came with video classroom lessons from Pete Bonanni.
Knowing very little about this subject, I think it would be interesting to do some
basic air combat maneuvers against another aircraft. Seems there were a few
concepts in the book that were interesting yet safe for the beginner. Obviously
this would take planning, coordination and qualified instruction.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27952#27952
Message 29
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But the issue Tim is not who discovered it first, or who trained with it
when.
The issue is: Can you do it now, if you were not military first.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
p.s. And by the way, I am sure you are correct on all the statements that
you made.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:58 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
> But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the
> USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills
> for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time.
> Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without
> any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to
> figure it out without formal military training.
>
Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII. The
Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier participation in
the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from Germany to
support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use today to
inlcude most of the various tactical formations. I have asked countless
WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me that they
received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission. Now, it was
certainly not like what it is today, but they did have training. If you need
proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training report from a P-51 pilot
who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being deployed the 359FG in
1944. I also have a book on the subject written recently covering the
training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.
Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and before.
Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting
Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.
Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely
'ON.'
Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have
both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight.
Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"!
Height gives you the initiative.
Always turn and face the attack.
Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your
tactics are not the best.
Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to
act as top guard.
INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN
something in Air Fighting.
Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out!
=E2EUR" Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D27839#27839
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
That is why the system incorporates a KALMAN filter.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
P.S. Basically a KALMAN filter is a piece of software that takes all inputs
and develops a smoothed output. It considers everything about the
conditions of the aircraft and the flight and then "decides" how to best
BLEND all the inputs for the best possible output. If one input happens to
go away for a certain period of time, it follows the last and best blended
solution to still give better short term accuracy than just relying on a
stand alone single input. So if you were to lose EITHER GPS or LORAN input,
it would still offer better accuracy than either in a stand alone basis.
Loran-C works at about 90-110 Khz. It will exhibit all the normal
propagation characteristics of a 100 Khz signal. GPS L1 is at 1565 Mhz and
is about -169 dbw down using a spread spectrum technique. L2 is at 1265 Mhz
and is about -166 dbw down. These are extremely weak signals. Loran on
the other hand is pretty darn strong, their transmitters usually having an
output power between 100 KW and 4000 KW, that's 4,000,000,000 watts.. and
that is a WHOLE BUNCH. Either signal can be lost under certain conditions,
but typically those conditions are NOT synonymous.
P.P.S. Brian, I think you were talking about Eurofix. I think I was
talking about LORAN LDC, and hey... we DID think of that!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of cgalley
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: ADF Radio Compass
--> Yak-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
For one... Loran doesn't work well in rain (IFR) approaches!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: ADF Radio Compass
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
>
>> Speaking of Loran A .... er, ah .. now Loran C. I heard that the FAA
>> was thinking of putting more emphasis on Loran C and were planning on
>> sinking "serious" money into the system upgrading it. The idea being
>> that us airplane folks would then soon be offered an actual Loran-C //
>> GPS Nav Aid... both in one box. Kind of like an Embedded GPS Inertial
>> NAV system, this thing would use a KALMAN filter to blend GPS L1 signals
>> with Loran-C thus creating a system with accuracy approaching or even
>> exceeding GPS WAAIS, or at least... that's what is being claimed.
>>
>> Anyone else heard this rumor?
>
> Yes. It is the new system that the Europeans are fielding. They are
> transmitting the WAAS differential data on the LORAN chains instead of
> sending it from the satellites. The advantage of this system is that,
> while it is very easy to jam GPS, it is almost impossible to jam LORAN.
> Also, the kind of interference that affects LORAN has no affect on GPS and
> vice-versa. If the GPS part fails for whatever reason, the LORAN part will
> still provide usable area navigation and accuracy suitable for
> nonprecision approaches.
>
> Why didn't we think of that.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 31
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Agree 100% Doc, well said. I only know a few non-military types that I'd go
to the merge with and they were all trained by military fighter guys over a
period of months.
If the RPA wants to prevent "BFM training in a weekend", which I agree with,
that's OK with me. What I want to know is, if a few "ACM" guys show up at
an RPA event and want to go fight amongst themselves, will the RPA try to
prohibit it.
Hey, who was your ex-marine helo bud? Did he fly Vipers?
Hitman
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Hitman,
It is what you do and are comfortable with. I for sure am not saying not to
do ACM if it is between mutually consenting adults. You brief it and are
comfortable with the players , then fly it. But lets not do this in the
context of the RPA.
I fly BFM occassionally with my "buds" from the squadron. I am not sure I
would take my ex-marine helicopter pilot bud out for a 1 v 1 BFM sortie
since he has no prior ACM training. But he is ex-military for what it is
worth.
It is skill and apptitude. That is not learned in a 3 day course. I will bet
your friend learned this skill over a minimum of a year's time unless he got
to fly 3 to 4 days a week 1 to 2 sorties a day and had academics in between
for a month or so. It takes time and exposure to see how an unsafe situation
is or can be developing. How what started as a rolling reposition on a
level turning bandit aircraft that abruptly pulls to the vertical now
creating a flight path confliction. Now in a heartbeat you are going to have
to convert this to a vertical rolling scissor or opt for unloading and
extending to exit the fight. If you nose is already committed to the
vertical with your bid for a rolling reposition and with his pull to the
vertical you are now commited to the vertical also. In the one move, your
opponent just changed the whole architecture of the fight in a heartbeat. A
3 day wonder would not even see it coming nor would they quickly recognize
that they have a flight path confliction, if the fight was inside 2000 to
1000 feet say, you and he are in trouble. Outside of 2000 ft, to 3000 ft in
our aircraft, a newbie might be able to see that and react.
How many civilians off the street even understood what I was just talking
about? Not many, I am sure.
I know I sound like I am lecturing to a pro. Sorry, I do not mean to sound
that way. I know you know all of what I was saying, but there are those out
there that want to taste ACM and do not have the back ground to go there
safely.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hilterman Jr. <mailto:johnhilterman1@cox.net>
Sent: 4/12/2006 10:44:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Two comments:
1. This logic means we better all stop doing ANY kind of maneuvering on
the airplane that puts us close to 4 G=12s, aerobatics included.
2. I disagree with the comment =13if you didn=12t learn it in the military,
you=12ll never do so=14. There=12s a Yak-50 pilot on the west coast that wasn=12t
trained in the military but was trained by a fellow F-18 pilot buddy of
mine. On any given day we=12ll trade bullets 50% of the time. He=12s one of
the few individuals I=12m willing to go =13fangs out=14 with because I know he
won=12t bust our ACM training rules which we brief prior to every flight. I
also know that during an engagement he understands and recognizes those
sight pictures which can lead to a bad day at the office and will pull the
fangs in prior to it getting dangerous.
My two cents.
Hitman
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:22 PM
Cc: Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond ! ;)
Drew
Steve Dalton <sdalton@goeaston.net> wrote:
Y=12all,
At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for
your consideration:
Last Friday my son=12s F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic. Thankfully,
the young man flying it survived. Here is the story as related to me by
folks knowledgeable of the incident.
This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot
(IP). His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the =13rookie=14). The
mission they were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM)
sorties, offensive perch set-ups. In these set-ups the =13rookie=14 (played by
the experienced IP) starts behind the =13target=14 (the IP trainee). At the
=13fight=12s on=14 call, the IP trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give
the =13rookie=14 a simple BFM problem to solve. This is as basic as it gets,
BFM 101. There is NO simpler BFM mission! All he did was start a level
hard turn!!!!!
But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the =13rookie=14, the IP trainee
g-locs (blacks out due to g=12s). He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and
his hand stops pulling on the stick. As a result, he heads downhill toward
the water at Warp 9. Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water
RAPIDLY approaching and ejects. The jet hits the water =3D second after
ejection, but he swings in the chute for almost two minutes. Get a feel for
the downhill speed on the jet?!!?
Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in
his raft and is eventually rescued. The rescue is a whole story in itself!!
The ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!
OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people? Simply this: It could
easily happen to one of us!!!!!
It may have taken 9 g=12s to put this guy to sleep. But, would 7, 6, 5, or
even 4 g=12s be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens? Folks,
this was the most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!! And, yet,
it=12s not the first time this has happened. I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in
the mid-80=12s IN THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO. Glen Hessel hit the ground so
fast/hard a Park Ranger a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.
I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA =13teaching=14 of
BFM/ACM. Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red
Star (that=12s all this guy did, one simple level turn! And he barely
survived).
I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst
ourselves. But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it sounds
egotistical and arrogant, but you just can=12t teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who
do not have the background that fighter pilots have. It=12s one of those
things that if you didn=12t learn it (and survive it) in the military, you=12ll
never do so. You missed your chance. Just like most (all?) of us missed
our chance to be brain surgeons/major league baseball players/rock
stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc. We all
followed different paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences.
We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all aren=12t fighter
pilots.
OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!
Fly safe,
Steve Dalton
_____
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman5/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt
save big.
Message 32
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cjpilot710@aol.com Jim "Pappy" Goolsby wrote:
>I do not feel the association has the resources nor
>expertise to set up a ACM/BFM course that would be
>safe for its members. Simple as that. Yes, "training"
>is a good thing, but some "training" is unnecessary.
>Outside the military, ACM is a ego trip - period.
>Ego has killed more people than weather.
>Just about every accident could be traced some way back to ego.
Pappy, as one of the oldest and most experienced pilots in this group, I
respect your abilities and experience above most people in this world. I
say this in advance because I can not agree with most of the statements you
made in this post, but that does not take away from my respect for you as a
pilot.
I listened carefully to your point of view that said: "The Association" does
not have the resources or expertise to set up an ACM/BFM course that would
be safe for its members". Candidly, I wish you had just stopped right
there, because your opinion in that regard is warranted and respected.
However, going on to say that "some training is unnecessary" tends to really
bother me Pappy. How "necessary" was it for us to go to the Moon? Were the
deaths of all that worked towards that goal just a bunch of people with big
ego's? Maybe that is indeed true. But another truth is that there are very
few fighter pilots on this planet that have engaged the enemy and lived that
did NOT have "big ego's". Further, some people have earned the right to
express a "big ego" concerning certain aspects of flying, you being one of
them.
"Ego" has multiple definitions, one being: "An exaggerated sense of
self-importance; conceit." The other: "Appropriate pride in oneself;
self-esteem."
While you might find problems with the first, I am in fact talking about the
second.
For example, I would like to fly a P-51 SOLO someday. Is that "necessary"?
NO! Will doing it increase my ego? Oh you betcha! Is there something
wrong with that? Your answer does not matter... because I'm going to do it
anyway, getting some "unnecessary training" in the process.
>The wings can be pulled off any airplane. It does not take G lock to do
it.
>Egos have a higher tolerance to G stress loads than our airplanes.
>The Yaks and CJ's were not built to do this. They are trainers NOT
fighters.
I can not speak about anything concerning a CJ. I can say that the YAK-52
was built to offer training for UNLIMITED level aerobatics. That includes
tumbles and gyroscopic maneuvers. Very few if ANY fighters were build to
withstand the G loading of a modern day unlimited Aerobatic Trainer.
>In our careers we've watched more than one ego trip,
>take the wings off perfectly good airplanes and become lawn darts
>- with a hell of a lot more experience pilots than you at the controls.
That is of course true, and let's hope that they died with smiles on their
faces because they were doing something that they loved to do. People die
doing all manner of things, and other people line up and pay money to watch
them do it. I'd like to think that as human beings, we are limited only by
our desires, our imaginations, and our willingness to suffer in order to
achieve our goals in life, no matter what color or sex we are, how old we
are, whether we served in the military first, or whether we wear a freaking
flight suit for that matter. If I want to risk becoming a lawn dart either
from diving out of an airplane with a chute that doesn't open, or by flying
an airplane to the very limit of it's capabilities, I believe that is my
choice, and that good people in this world should only try to point me in a
direction to do it with more safety rather than advising me not to do it at
all.
>In theory "training" makes a safe pilot but "training" can also
>led a pilot into a complacency where he goes too far into that
>part of the flight envelope for his abilities.
And he or she will then either die, or live. Those that live realize they
need more training. How many of us have NOT put ourselves into some
situation where we had a moment of pure terror because of some stupid move
we did? Maybe just myself, but I refuse to really believe that.
>My personal view is that the Darwin factor controls the ego.
>i.e. "There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots."
My personal view is that I would rather die in a big ball of fire having the
time of my life rather than laying in a hospital drooling out my mouth with
50 tubes stuck into every natural hole (and some unnatural ones) keeping my
safe old self alive until the last possible second.
Some people drive those race cars Pappy and others sit there and watch them
do it. I believe you to be one of the former. Please do not expect me to
be one of the latter.
Mark "Bad Bullets" Bitterlich
N50YK
Message 33
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| Subject: | Rules for Jewels |
Rules every Pilot should know about:
1. I am in the Navy, and am thus a better pilot than you are.
2. I am a U.S. Marine Corps Aviator, suck it up or I'll rip off your head
and ___ down the hole.
3. I am in the Air Force and I am a WAY better pilot than you are.
4. I am in the Army, and I suck. (Sorry.... Army Pilots actually RULE!)
5. I fly Aerobatics, so I am a better pilot than you are.
6. I learned in the military, so I am a better pilot than YOU CAN EVER BE!
7. I wear a flight suit, so people will think #6 is true, and even if it is
not, make it a rule anyway.
8. I fly heavy iron, so I am a better pilot than you are.
9. I carry more passengers, so I am a better pilot than you are.
10. I am a bush pilot, so I am a better pilot than you are.
11. I have gonads, need I say more?
12. I fly WW-II Combat Aircraft, so I am a better pilot than you are.
13. I OWN a WW-II Combat Aircraft, wanna-be's need not apply.
And last but not least:
14. I fly REAL ACM/BCM taught by the military, and not only am I better
pilot than you are,
you can't even begin to learn what I know, and if you are stupid enough to
try it, you will DIE!
If I left anyone out, feel free to add to the list.
Hey, you're ALL better Pilots than I am, but my Dad can beat your Dad
ANYTIME.
Message 34
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Hitman,
Dav "Dimmer" DeSimmon. No he got out after coming home from Viet Nam. He is a dentist
now.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hilterman Jr.
Sent: 4/12/2006 5:17:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Agree 100% Doc, well said. I only know a few non-military types that Id go to
the merge with and they were all trained by military fighter guys over a period
of months.
If the RPA wants to prevent BFM training in a weekend, which I agree with, thats
OK with me. What I want to know is, if a few ACM guys show up at an RPA event
and want to go fight amongst themselves, will the RPA try to prohibit it.
Hey, who was your ex-marine helo bud? Did he fly Vipers?
Hitman
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Hitman,
It is what you do and are comfortable with. I for sure am not saying not to do
ACM if it is between mutually consenting adults. You brief it and are comfortable
with the players , then fly it. But lets not do this in the context of the
RPA.
I fly BFM occassionally with my "buds" from the squadron. I am not sure I would
take my ex-marine helicopter pilot bud out for a 1 v 1 BFM sortie since he has
no prior ACM training. But he is ex-military for what it is worth.
It is skill and apptitude. That is not learned in a 3 day course. I will bet your
friend learned this skill over a minimum of a year's time unless he got to
fly 3 to 4 days a week 1 to 2 sorties a day and had academics in between for a
month or so. It takes time and exposure to see how an unsafe situation is or
can be developing. How what started as a rolling reposition on a level turning
bandit aircraft that abruptly pulls to the vertical now creating a flight path
confliction. Now in a heartbeat you are going to have to convert this to a
vertical rolling scissor or opt for unloading and extending to exit the fight.
If you nose is already committed to the vertical with your bid for a rolling
reposition and with his pull to the vertical you are now commited to the vertical
also. In the one move, your opponent just changed the whole architecture of
the fight in a heartbeat. A 3 day wonder would not even see it coming nor would
they quickly recognize that they have a flight pa
th confliction, if the fight was inside 2000 to 1000 feet say, you and he are
in trouble. Outside of 2000 ft, to 3000 ft in our aircraft, a newbie might be
able to see that and react.
How many civilians off the street even understood what I was just talking about?
Not many, I am sure.
I know I sound like I am lecturing to a pro. Sorry, I do not mean to sound that
way. I know you know all of what I was saying, but there are those out there
that want to taste ACM and do not have the back ground to go there safely.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hilterman Jr.
Sent: 4/12/2006 10:44:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Two comments:
This logic means we better all stop doing ANY kind of maneuvering on the airplane
that puts us close to 4 Gs, aerobatics included.
I disagree with the comment if you didnt learn it in the military, youll never
do so. Theres a Yak-50 pilot on the west coast that wasnt trained in the military
but was trained by a fellow F-18 pilot buddy of mine. On any given day well
trade bullets 50% of the time. Hes one of the few individuals Im willing
to go fangs out with because I know he wont bust our ACM training rules which
we brief prior to every flight. I also know that during an engagement he understands
and recognizes those sight pictures which can lead to a bad day at the
office and will pull the fangs in prior to it getting dangerous.
My two cents.
Hitman
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:22 PM
Cc: Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: Re: BFM/ACM
Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond ! ;)
Drew
Steve Dalton <sdalton@goeaston.net> wrote:
Yall,
At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for your consideration:
Last Friday my sons F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic. Thankfully, the
young man flying it survived. Here is the story as related to me by folks knowledgeable
of the incident.
This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot (IP).
His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the rookie). The mission they
were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) sorties, offensive
perch set-ups. In these set-ups the rookie (played by the experienced
IP) starts behind the target (the IP trainee). At the fights on call, the IP
trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give the rookie a simple BFM problem
to solve. This is as basic as it gets, BFM 101. There is NO simpler BFM
mission! All he did was start a level hard turn!!!!!
But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the rookie, the IP trainee g-locs
(blacks out due to gs). He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and his hand
stops pulling on the stick. As a result, he heads downhill toward the water at
Warp 9. Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water RAPIDLY approaching
and ejects. The jet hits the water = second after ejection, but he swings in
the chute for almost two minutes. Get a feel for the downhill speed on the
jet?!!?
Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in his
raft and is eventually rescued. The rescue is a whole story in itself!! The
ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!
OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people? Simply this: It could easily
happen to one of us!!!!!
It may have taken 9 gs to put this guy to sleep. But, would 7, 6, 5, or even 4
gs be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens? Folks, this was the
most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!! And, yet, its not the first
time this has happened. I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in the mid-80s IN
THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO. Glen Hessel hit the ground so fast/hard a Park Ranger
a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.
I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA teaching of BFM/ACM.
Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red Star (thats
all this guy did, one simple level turn! And he barely survived).
I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst ourselves.
But PLEASE consider the risks. I also know it sounds egotistical and arrogant,
but you just cant teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who do not have the background
that fighter pilots have. Its one of those things that if you didnt learn
it (and survive it) in the military, youll never do so. You missed your chance.
Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain surgeons/major
league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope
John Paul/etc. We all followed different paths and each of us has certain talents
and experiences. We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all
arent fighter pilots.
OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!
Fly safe,
Steve Dalton
Message 35
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi wrote:
> But the issue Tim is not who discovered it first, or who trained with it when.?
> The issue is:? Can you do it now, if you were not military first.?
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
> p.s.? And by the way, I am sure you are correct on all the statements that you
made.?
>
>
> --
I would say yes with proper instruction from someone who has the knowhow to teach
it. I would venture to say that only a handful of folks out there who are NOT
miltary can train a full up dog fight and call it safe. Hitman mentioned one
of them and I know exactly who he is talking about. But as Hitman said, he learned
from a former Hornet driver. I think, with only a few exceptions, that
training should come from military sources.
On the RPA front; I could give a rats ass what the RPA thinks about it. They are
not a governing body and if they do not endorse it, who cares. It will not prevent
anyone from doing it. If you are at a RPA "sponsored" event, find your
own little slice of sky and have at it. I find it odd that the RPA will hold a
amateur aerobatic event at ARS this year but does not suppport ACM anymore. Both
can get you killed and more have died from the former.
For those that want to fight..go fight. If you ball up an airplane, that sucks.
If you are inverted at 15 feet AGL pushing for a outside loop and your wings
snap, that sucks too.
Maybe the RPA should support ownership and basic operation and leave the rest to
the owners.
Curious how many folks have been killed doing ACM versus aerobatics in the Yak
or CJ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28006#28006
Message 36
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
Scooter wrote:
> That looks like an interesting book. Only about $15 in the Amazon new&used section.
>
> I looked up the book that came with Falcon 4.0 - "Art Of The Kill" by Pete Bonanni.
It's an easy read for those who don't want to get too serious. As I recall
it also came with video classroom lessons from Pete Bonanni.
>
> Knowing very little about this subject, I think it would be interesting to do
some basic air combat maneuvers against another aircraft. Seems there were a
few concepts in the book that were interesting yet safe for the beginner. Obviously
this would take planning, coordination and qualified instruction.
I have both the video and the book and have had them since the early 90's. Cool
stuff for the beginner and the video has a bunch of dudes with guts and beards
in the audience in flight suits asking ACM questions. Some of you would get
a kick out of it. Bonnani is now (I think he still is) the Wing CO of the VA ANG.
If you will notice in Falcon 4.0. the airplanes are VA birds.
Good luck finding the video! If someone wants a copy of it, I can make one. Just
dont tell Pete.
If you like online sims, go old school and get IL-2 Sturmovik. Makes the rest of
the WWII stuff look like Microsoft Flight Sim.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28008#28008
Message 37
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| Subject: | cj6 spare parts at low price |
SGkgQ0o2IHBpbG90cywNCg0KV2UgaGF2ZSBzb21lIHNwYXJlIHBhcnRzIGluIHN0b2NrLg0KSU4g
YSBjb3VwbGUgb2Ygd2Vla3MgLHdlIHdpbGwgc2VsbCBhbGwgdGhlc2UgcGFydHMgYW5kIA0KaW50
cm9kdWNlIG5ldyBvbmVzLg0KDQpBbnlib2R5IGlzIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW4gdGhlc2UgcGFydHMs
IEkgY2FuIHN1cHBseSB0aGUgbGlzdCBhbmQgDQpxdW90ZS4NCg0KRmx5IHNhZmUuDQoNCk1lbmcN
CkJlaWppbmcsQ2hpbmENCg==
Message 38
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Donna Hanshew" <dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
What can you possibly say to do justice? It's beautiful.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of tamara_b@telus.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:57 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Fun in a CJ
Hi Yakkers and CJers,
last week I was lucky to
take a shot of the beautiful
Lake Cowichan on Vancouver Island,
might be worth a look.
cheers
Elmar
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> P.P.S. Brian, I think you were talking about Eurofix. I think I was
> talking about LORAN LDC, and hey... we DID think of that!
But they are doing it and we aren't. Instead the FAA wants to put all
our eggs in one GPS basket with no effective backup. And I have held the
little Russian GPS jammer in my hand. Nice little box. You used to be
able to buy them for $4000.
Wait for about 10 years for them to kill VOR and LORAN navigation then
park yourself up on Mount Wilson with it and eliminate GPS service in
the greater LA basin. Wait until rush hour during a winter storm and
have yourself a ball. When it happens remember to give me credit for
predicting it.
And there is no way anyone could even hope to build a LORAN jammer. It
would have to be the size of a skyscraper.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50@msn.com>
brian wrote:
> Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
>
>
> > P.P.S. Brian, I think you were talking about Eurofix. I think I was
> > talking about LORAN LDC, and hey... we DID think of that!
> >
> >
>
> But they are doing it and we aren't. Instead the FAA wants to put all
> our eggs in one GPS basket with no effective backup. And I have held the
> little Russian GPS jammer in my hand. Nice little box. You used to be
> able to buy them for $4000.
>
> Wait for about 10 years for them to kill VOR and LORAN navigation then
> park yourself up on Mount Wilson with it and eliminate GPS service in
> the greater LA basin. Wait until rush hour during a winter storm and
> have yourself a ball. When it happens remember to give me credit for
> predicting it.
>
> And there is no way anyone could even hope to build a LORAN jammer. It
> would have to be the size of a skyscraper.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
There is always dead reckoning and pilotage...but who knows how to do that anymore?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28027#28027
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: ADF Radio Compass |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Gagnon wrote:
> There is always dead reckoning and pilotage...but who knows how to do that anymore?
I doubt that most pilots would be prepared to transition to DR while on
the gauges when all their other nav went out.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 42
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
The only way to enhance farther is add a YAK or CJ in form in the
foreground.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Steve & Donna Hanshew <dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/12/2006 8:27:50 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Fun in a CJ
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve & Donna Hanshew"
<dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
>
> What can you possibly say to do justice? It's beautiful.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
tamara_b@telus.net
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:57 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Fun in a CJ
>
>
> Hi Yakkers and CJers,
>
> last week I was lucky to
> take a shot of the beautiful
> Lake Cowichan on Vancouver Island,
> might be worth a look.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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